Why all that makes Brawl different from Melee makes Brawl BETTER than Melee (long)

[TheZhuKeeper]

I love Brawl because to me it seems it will be relying more on pure mindgames and spacing.

Yes, I agree.

We should all play Brawl with just the c stick because it'll improve our mindgames and spacing. Having anything more makes the game too technical mirite? Better yet, let's all play, say, Marth so that no person has an advantage, that way the person with the best mindgames and spacing wins. He or she deserves the money right?

 

[Spellman]

There isn't a huge correlation between deepness and competitiveness. Even if Brawl is a bit more shallow, you've still got enough options available to you to master strategies. Why not just give a game a million buttons and a million different techniques? Maybe this game just doesn't appeal to the same type of people who enjoyed Melee competitively, but I hope that no one throws in the towel to be quite honest. I think that the changes they've made will broaden the scope of people who want to play competitively, but that doesn't mean I think that you can just pick up the controller for the first time and beat a veteran, I just think that the changes that made it simpler will appeal to many.

The more I play the game, the more I am instinctively start doing things that make my game play more fluid.

 

[Pink Reaper]

There isn't a huge correlation between deepness and competitiveness. Even if Brawl is a bit more shallow, you've still got enough options available to you to master strategies. Why not just give a game a million buttons and a million different techniques? Maybe this game just doesn't appeal to the same type of people who enjoyed Melee competitively, but I hope that no one throws in the towel to be quite honest. I think that the changes they've made will broaden the scope of people who want to play competitively, but that doesn't mean I think that you can just pick up the controller for the first time and beat a veteran, I just think that the changes that made it simpler will appeal to many.

The more I play the game, the more I am instinctively start doing things that make my game play more fluid.

More buttons =/= more depth, and the fact that Brawl is more shallow does mean that huge amounts of people will easily be able to reach the highest level of play. The best smashers will reach that point first but eventually more and more will reach that level just because it isn't particularly difficult to reach. Imagine, you are one of the best smashers at melee, you know that if you were to go to a tournament you would easily have a shot at winning because you put in a huge amount of time and effort to reach the level you did. Now imagine that your one of the best smashers at Brawl but it doesn't matter because 2 million others have reached the same level due to the fact that its not that difficult. You could go to a tourney but there would really be no point as you could get beaten by some random who's only played the game for a few months. People want the rewards for putting in the effort to get good. Im not saying you can just pick up Brawl a few times and suddenly become amazing, but I am saying that you won't have to put in a huge amount of effort to get good.

Now, Im sure there will be people who say "But its great that more people can reach that level, it just wasn't fair in Melee!" But that's the thing, it was fair. People who were good in melee were good because they put forth the huge amount of effort it takes to get good at it. The best were the best because they took the time to go farther than anyone else. They DESERVE to be the best. The fact that in Brawl you don't have to work that hard to reach the highest plateau really means its pointless to become competitive at the game. Yes it's great that so many people can reach the highest level of play, but not from a competitive standpoint, just a friendly, even, casual standpoint.

 

[Spellman]

More buttons =/= more depth, and the fact that Brawl is more shallow does mean that huge amounts of people will easily be able to reach the highest level of play. The best smashers will reach that point first but eventually more and more will reach that level just because it isn't particularly difficult to reach. Imagine, you are one of the best smashers at melee, you know that if you were to go to a tournament you would easily have a shot at winning because you put in a huge amount of time and effort to reach the level you did. Now imagine that your one of the best smashers at Brawl but it doesn't matter because 2 million others have reached the same level due to the fact that its not that difficult. You could go to a tourney but there would really be no point as you could get beaten by some random who's only played the game for a few months. People want the rewards for putting in the effort to get good. Im not saying you can just pick up Brawl a few times and suddenly become amazing, but I am saying that you won't have to put in a huge amount of effort to get good.

Now, Im sure there will be people who say "But its great that more people can reach that level, it just wasn't fair in Melee!" But that's the thing, it was fair. People who were good in melee were good because they put forth the huge amount of effort it takes to get good at it. The best were the best because they took the time to go farther than anyone else. They DESERVE to be the best. The fact that in Brawl you don't have to work that hard to reach the highest plateau really means its pointless to become competitive at the game. Yes it's great that so many people can reach the highest level of play, but not from a competitive standpoint, just a friendly, even, casual standpoint.

Nobody has reached the highest level of play yet, and I'm not even quite sure it had been in Melee, because the game leaves too much room for improvement. It's people vs. people, not people vs. computer, and you never know what people are going to throw at you, as we think more radically than any computer. This isn't DDR or Guitar Hero where the perfect solution is memorizing the exact button combination.

I don't blame the game for any of my shortcomings within each match, it's all human error once you know the game. (save for tripping)

 

[Pink Reaper]

No, we really have already figured out how to be perfect in Brawl. Its called shielding. It seriously always the best option as no character can approach a shielding opponent without being shield grabbed. If you haven't been camping your shield, try it out, see how it works.

 

[Spellman]

No, we really have already figured out how to be perfect in Brawl. Its called shielding. It seriously always the best option as no character can approach a shielding opponent without being shield grabbed. If you haven't been camping your shield, try it out, see how it works.

I know it works if someone approaches you while shielding but it didn't take long for people to catch onto what I was doing so I had to adapt and move onto something else...

 

[Pink Reaper]

No trust me, shielding will always work. With the new easy power shielding I seriously haven't had to do much else. And I've found that characters like Lucas and Toon Link are the most unapproachable ****s in existence >.< I have a Toon Link main friend and he can easily spam me with projectiles until Im forced to approach and then when I do its just Power shield->grab. Even if he misses the power shield and I hit him with an amazingly strong hit, the slide usually isn't enough to keep him from grabbing me as he has a grapple grab.

 

[Spellman]

No trust me, shielding will always work. With the new easy power shielding I seriously haven't had to do much else. And I've found that characters like Lucas and Toon Link are the most unapproachable ****s in existence >.< I have a Toon Link main friend and he can easily spam me with projectiles until Im forced to approach and then when I do its just Power shield->grab. Even if he misses the power shield and I hit him with an amazingly strong hit, the slide usually isn't enough to keep him from grabbing me as he has a grapple grab.

Well I don't wanna get into a big technical argument about it, but it's more than worth your $50 to try and figure this game out, as with anybody else who doesn't have anything on Melee. Also, Melee's not going anywhere, so it's not like there isn't anything to go back to. I think this game has just as much competitive edge as Melee did, albeit a different one.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Im actually playing Melee right now >.>

In all seriousness, its not like the matches I played were ONLY shield grabbing matches, but it made up at least half of any given match and, in my experience, its always the aggressor who gets punished by the new game mechanics. This is bad, as a fighting game should not be made with defense being the main focus.

 

[Spellman]

This is bad, as a fighting game should not be made with defense being the main focus.

Agreed. I hope this is not the case, as standing around camping until the other guy gets tired would not be fun.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

I actually don't even shieldgrab that much because throws aren't very good in Brawl and I play characters with better options out of shield.

 

[EternalCrusade]

This thread is genius, will you marry me?

...or at least play me online? same thing basically...

 

[E P I C]

Nah.......

 

[AerionTOFAST4U]

Then go back to ****ing melee and stop ****ing spamming the forums with your ****ing anti Brawl ****. GET THE **** OUT NOW!

Amen


10pandas

 

[Eggm]

Pink reaper is my hero.

Btw, that set was AWESOME, that whole tournament seemed amazing, I wish I didn't live so far away so I coulda went.

Edit : I think its awesome that people point out the top tiers being broken in melee all the time. When luigi and samus won that tournament LOL. Melee still has soooo much to offer, the top tiers are only the top tiers because the very best players play them most often. If more super talented top players dedicate themselves to new characters then it will change. I think melee still has tons of unlocked potential, I've played for a year and a half and a month ago learned a new advanced technique that revolutionized my game, melee hasn't even discovered everything yet lol its such a deep amazing game.

 

[VVayfarer]

Pink reaper is my hero.

Btw, that set was AWESOME, that whole tournament seemed amazing, I wish I didn't live so far away so I coulda went.

Edit : I think its awesome that people point out the top tiers being broken in melee all the time. When luigi and samus won that tournament LOL. Melee still has soooo much to offer, the top tiers are only the top tiers because the very best players play them most often. If more super talented top players dedicate themselves to new characters then it will change. I think melee still has tons of unlocked potential, I've played for a year and a half and a month ago learned a new advanced technique that revolutionized my game, melee hasn't even discovered everything yet lol its such a deep amazing game.

Oh, so everything in Brawl has been discovered?
What are you even doing here in the Brawl forums?

 

[Eggm]

No, but not everything in melee is fully developed yet either that was my point. I'm here complaining because brawl is ruining the smash community as a whole. This was a respected competitive foum, now its just flooded with ignorant brawl newbs its really frustrating.

 

[Sandwich]

I think that the people telling the people who are posting their impressions/views/opinions to **** off are even more annoying.

Seriously. I could make a side account and say "I don't like the way Brawl plays in general, compared to melee it's a really huge overhaul" they will say "LOL GET OFFS MY INTARNETS LOL HOW DO I SHOT CORRECT GRAMMAR" and whatever.

I think Brawl is okay, it's a different engine and I think the game is more thinking, more "How do I make the best out of this situation" than melee's "how can I use and discover the depth to my advantage"?

On paper Melee>Brawl overall I guess but I think there are too many newbies running around on SWF screaming about how the melee players are ***gots, etc.

 

[ObeseNightmare]

I like your sig OP... and I agree.. with what I read.

 

[Fletch]

You know, to be honest, one of the reasons I was really looking forward to Brawl was that I wanted that "fresh start." Most of my Melee experience involved playing people with years of experience over me. But after playing Brawl, I realized that even though the skill gap between myself and these players slightly decreased...that just wasn't as important to me as the fact that I find Melee intrinsically more enjoyable.

All I wanted was a game with new characters that could reach the same level of excitement and intensity as this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjovwgLSmZ4

What did I get instead? Stickers. STICKERS. Sakurai is a self-indulgent egomaniac.

BUT ZOMG THAT IS NOT DUAL FOX ON FINAL DESTINATION.

 

[Doctor T]

Maybe this game just doesn't appeal to the same type of people who enjoyed Melee competitively

I think that this is the key most of us are missing. Brawl is a different game, and because of the changes, it is played in a very different way. Not all of the people who loved Melee will like Brawl, and vice-versa.

I know that I love and have always loved the Smash Bros games, not because they were super-fast paced and intense, but because they were fun to play. It took me a long time to even move on to Melee from Smash 64, and even still there are sometimes when I just don't feel like playing Melee. The strain is so much, the matches are so fast and intense, that it can really take a lot out of you. This is how I feel about the game, and I understand that many people loved that fast-paced intense nature of Melee. This is why so many people are disappointed by Brawl.

Maybe Brawl isn't as tournament-level competitive as Melee was, but to me it is a lot more fun to play. Really... I don't play these games to compete as much as to just have fun. Sure, I like to compete against others, it can be a lot of fun. But things just get so serious and intense with Melee that at times I just didn't enjoy it very much.

Some of you who are used to playing in tournaments regularly and loved that intense nature of Melee may continue to play it. And thats fine with me, if thats what you want to do. There are still forums here on Smash Boards for Melee, and I'm sure there will be some people that just prefer to compete there. The same thing happened with the 64, and I'm sure it will happen again with Melee. Brawl is just different, and not everyone will enjoy the changes.

But to continually come over here in the Brawl forums and whine about it really gets annoying to all of us who are enjoying Brawl. Seriously... please make up your mind. If you want to stick to Melee, go play Melee. We won't try to stop you. We are all aware by now of what you don't like about Brawl, and you have valid complaints. But many of us would rather play Brawl... so if you want to play Brawl, try to start learning to adapt.

I'm not saying to just stop complaining and get over it. Some of these things I'm sure are very irritating for you all, and its not just a simple matter of "getting over it". You have real, valid complaints, that many of you share in frustration towards Brawl. I'm just asking politely to please stop flooding the Brawl boards with complaints. I can't even hardly go to the General Discussion forum anymore because there is so much arguing and bickering going on. Thats all I'm asking, though I know it will take quite some time before people are genuinely able to begin to cope with their frustrations about Brawl.

 

[Spellman]

^ Yeah, I sorta agree, Dr. T. Although, I don't have as many problems with people complaining about legitimate points of the changes that Brawl made that may or may not have made it inferior to Melee as I do with people just outright hating Brawl. I wouldn't do that to any fan forum, it's frustrating. I know this is a Smash Bros. forum, but this is the Brawl subsection, so if all you can say is that 'it sucks, it blows, and I don't like it', that's trolling.

Another thing is that it's not so much that I think that everyone should like Brawl for the same reasons and be exactly like me, but it would suck if people lost interest in Brawl because I am enjoying it so much, and I think that Melee fans should to. I mean, I know you can't change people, this whole argument is entirely subjective, we've all had different experiences with Brawl and tested it in different ways, so maybe we have somewhat skewed perception of how Brawl works. Don't get me wrong, there are facts, you can't deny that tripping is in the game for example, but it's just how you perceive these elements; as a good thing or a bad thing, and for what reasons that the arguments ensue.

I think everyone wanted Brawl to be flawless no matter what though. The naysayers aren't just naysaying for the hell of it or being ungrateful, if the game doesn't live up, it doesn't live up, can't fault people for voicing it. It's definitely less of a sour grapes argument like the "35 character roster revealed" argument, this one actually has room for discussion. Anyways, I'm going to continue defending Brawl because I don't think that enough of the potential for this game in all aspects has been fully discovered by anyone to pass crass judgment so quickly. Happy brawling, woild.

 

[Zeenof]

I don't really have much of a side on this. But one thing I have been thinking about is this: How could anyone be *****ing about this game? Shouldn't you, after 7 years, be happy that there's some change while still remaining, basically, what we all seem to really love? I mean, Brawl and Melee may be played differently, and blah blah blah. But how can you not be glad that they're different? Finally, after 7 years, we finally have new things to do, and look forward too. New characters, new moves, new strategies to learn. Shouldn't you just be happy that you wont spend 14 years with the same game? Melee had it's time. It has had everything done to it besides having babies (scratch that). Now it's time for a little be of old with a little bit of new. Brawl.

 

[IWontGetOverTheDam]

Comboing is almost non-existent. It's established fact.

Wrong. It's just plain ignorance to say that comboing isn't in. Is it a bit tougher? Yeah, a bit. But don't just up and say it isn't there when it so clearly is.

 

[Umby]

Yuna never said it wasn't there. Yuna said it's ALMOST not there. Somewhat false, since I've seen Sonic do some pretty trippy ****.

But yeah, Brawl > Melee threads need to be hindered as much as Melee > Brawl. It's pretty dumb to make a competitive comparison on two completely different games, especially when the words "competitive" and "technical" are confused in every argument.

 

[theONEjanitor]

for people criticizing my grammar or spelling. please stfu. unless you're going to give me a diploma or a salary i see no reason to proofread my work for you just because you're an *******. everything I said was clear as noted by the dozens of people who understood.

"there are no combos"
"edgeguarding doesn't work"
"aerial lag is the same, just without L-canceling"


all of these statements just plain wrong, and if you honestly disagree with that, you've either never played the game or are just being stubborn, and in either case I don't think it warrant my debating with you.

as for people who say the game doesn't move fluidly.
STOP TRYING TO PLAY IT LIKE MELEE.

ok, you can't do friggin waveshine combos are falcon moonwalk edgeguards, but if you stop trying t let your fingers win your game, maybe you can just chill out and get used to brawl's physics. dashing is different. walking is different. turning around is different, crouching is different. coming to a halt from dashing is different. shielding is different. ITS ALL DIFFERENT. stop playing it same.

 

[GuMz]

Online play make's it a million times better.

 

[Kirby M.D.]

for people criticizing my grammar or spelling. please stfu. unless you're going to give me a diploma or a salary i see no reason to proofread my work for you just because you're an *******. everything I said was clear as noted by the dozens of people who understood.

"there are no combos"
"edgeguarding doesn't work"
"aerial lag is the same, just without L-canceling"


all of these statements just plain wrong, and if you honestly disagree with that, you've either never played the game or are just being stubborn, and in either case I don't think it warrant my debating with you.

as for people who say the game doesn't move fluidly.
STOP TRYING TO PLAY IT LIKE MELEE.

ok, you can't do friggin waveshine combos are falcon moonwalk edgeguards, but if you stop trying t let your fingers win your game, maybe you can just chill out and get used to brawl's physics. dashing is different. walking is different. turning around is different, crouching is different. coming to a halt from dashing is different. shielding is different. ITS ALL DIFFERENT. stop playing it same.

Seriously, shut the hell up. Whatever scrap of sense you had is gone with this post; stop making yourself look like a bigger *** than you already are. Since caps lock is fun STOP MAKING SWEEPING GENERALIZATIONS ABOUT KNOWLEDGEABLE PEOPLE YOU MORON.

Look, Brawl is 6-7 weeks old; Melee is 7 years old. It took a good year or so for Melee to develop into the style we knew it as and is still being developed. Rome wasn't built in a day, neither was Melee. Eggm, RD, Reaper et.al.: I understand how you guys feel, but the point must be made that Brawl is a different game that we all aren't very good at yet. If it's that irritating, nobody's forcing you to play Brawl. No disrespect meant, Melee is a wonderful game and no one's going to think less of you if you prefer it at this point in time. I'm just saying, give Brawl at least a year before short-changing it. Nothing's stopping anyone from playing either game (or both for that matter). It's different strokes for different folks.

 

[theONEjanitor]

hey yeah i made all kind of generalizations about specific people in that post didn't i
great post good job

 

[Azuro]

You really don't develop a sense of how a game is played competitively until more than just a month or two after its release, ESPECIALLY if a bit has changed since its predecessor. Give the game some time to actually be figured out. New techniques can pop up at any given moment. You never know. So you can't really judge it after just a couple months.

I do agree that right now, it's more shallow than Melee. But that's as of right now. Not saying it'll be deeper than Melee in any sense, but just let the metagame fully develop and come back in maybe 6 months or a year.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Seriously, shut the hell up. Whatever scrap of sense you had is gone with this post; stop making yourself look like a bigger *** than you already are. Since caps lock is fun STOP MAKING SWEEPING GENERALIZATIONS ABOUT KNOWLEDGEABLE PEOPLE YOU MORON.

Look, Brawl is 6-7 weeks old; Melee is 7 years old. It took a good year or so for Melee to develop into the style we knew it as and is still being developed. Rome wasn't built in a day, neither was Melee. Eggm, RD, Reaper et.al.: I understand how you guys feel, but the point must be made that Brawl is a different game that we all aren't very good at yet. If it's that irritating, nobody's forcing you to play Brawl. No disrespect meant, Melee is a wonderful game and no one's going to think less of you if you prefer it at this point in time. I'm just saying, give Brawl at least a year before short-changing it. Nothing's stopping anyone from playing either game (or both for that matter). It's different strokes for different folks.

Rome wasn't built in a day, but if it had huge amounts of people working non-stop from day one it probably could of gotten finished in about a month

Seriously, you cannot compare the start of Melee to the start of Brawl. When melee started out, everyone just sort of played without looking for any kind of depth whatsoever. Hell, Marth used to be played with just rolling and C-Stick spam until Ken showed up. With Brawl we've had thousands of people tearing the game to shreds to find a way to make it better(be honest, you know if it was good enough as it was we wouldn't be looking) for a month straight. We've found huge amounts of(mostly useless) glitches. Hell, we even cracked the picture files allowing us to rip them from our Wii's. If there was something for us to find, we probably would have found it.

 

[Egret]

Rome wasn't built in a day, but if it had huge amounts of people working non-stop from day one it probably could of gotten finished in about a month

.

Is this Rome in it's current state or at some time during the Roman republic or empire, or at some point in between? I think you have to be here to appreciate just how many people you would need.

That said, your posts in this thread are amazing.

Wrong. It's just plain ignorance to say that comboing isn't in. Is it a bit tougher? Yeah, a bit. But don't just up and say it isn't there when it so clearly is.

No, it's not just a bit tougher. Working harder won't make combos appear, if you have to account for your opponent being able to get out of it, it's not a combo.

 

[Adius]

Good grief, just make a new IS BRAWL OR MELEE BETTER forum and then after a month permaban everyone who posted in it.

 

[theONEjanitor]

Good grief, just make a new IS BRAWL OR MELEE BETTER forum and then after a month permaban everyone who posted in it.

and then after that, we can permaban the hundreds of people who make the exact same post you did

egret don't be semantic about comboing, no melee game had any TRUE combos, all "combos" in melee could be gotten out (save IC's wobbling) of very early if you had excellent reaction and timing (especially with smash DI). How many "combo videos" actually had "combos" in it?
the things we use "combos" to refer to is common ways to score multiple attacks on an opponent in succession.

The game has combos at low percents, it does. its been done, watch kizzu's toon link, watch any marth, watch diddy videos, its been done, it will be developed. This is a ******** debate from people who just stubborn Brawl critics.

if you want MVC2 insta combos, go play that ****, this is not like that guys

who said combos are what makes a good or competitive anyway? The game is deep and competitive. Just because you guys can't flashy ******** **** you're criticizing the game. sigh

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Brawl is very deep, people just aren't looking outside the box.

After their denial wears away, the naysayers will realize it too.

 

[boxelder]

The vast majority of people are playing the game and absoloutly loving it. It's too bad some of you are "too hardcore" to enjoy it, but I promise you you are just a vocal minority on the internet. In fact, it really does seem to be the same few people again and again.

 

[NekoBoy085]

Honestly I don't care if you guys or anyone else finds melee better or brawl better. You guys have fun with your respected games. I for one enjoy brawl so much more then melee. I just have much more fun with the features of brawl over melee so I will keep playing it and having more fun with my game. I wish you all to do the same with yours.

But honestly, put these little topics to rest, it's ridiculous how much flame bait is used in these topics. Both sides need to really just quiet down and enjoy their games. Does it really matter what people you don't even know think?

 

[heety9]

I salute you, theONEjanitor...

 

[psicicle]

how can you say combos are nonexistent after a month? After a month of playing melee, I was definitely not as adept at comboing as I am now. I'd expect that weird moves will garner more use as time goes on, like how moves in melee such as the icy's blizzard and desync were discovered to be good.

However, I havent played brawl yet so maybe its all true

 

[Doomblaze]

Also, advanced techs didn't homogenize the characters of melee.

In all honestly, I think that they did. I am not amazing at the game, but i could/can beat almost anybody i know (thats not saying much cause none of them could even wavedash) by spamming SHFFL'd aerials with every character and wavesmashing like crazy. Melee was a game where the fastest person won, and we tried to make that happen with all of the advanced techs.


Brawl is Different everybody. If you hate it, then get out and keep on playing melee with all of your advanced techniques, which i too will sorely miss. Everybody now needs to up their mindgames like they did with their tech skills.

Good luck