Why affirmative action is silly

[global-wolf]

I don't get what problem you have with "desensitizing" the people to race differences. Isn't that what you want too?

Children's shows include casts with minority characters because it's so important for a kid to be able to see people they can relate to on TV. I don't expect you to have ever thought about this before, but a child is heavily influenced by the images he or she sees. If a black child, for example, watches a program that shows people being successful and rich, but they're all white, he learns subconsciously that white people are successful and rich. And he's not white, and he can feel unincluded. That coupled with society's discrimination of blacks can set in his mind that blacks aren't meant to be successful and rich and that's a tremendous mental barrier.

 

[BarDulL]

I was talking about an interview.

Also I wouldn't because I'm not gonna let some dude who will be all "U EYEBALLIN' ME?" when looked at by people and **** like "DAT MO****A NEEDS TO GET GOT" and all that.

Sorry but that's the way it rolls on my ship man, someone like that is sure to be homophobic too, you can draw a lot of conclusions from certain behaviours, and most of the time you will be right!

If he's not operating within bounds of a public forum, take him out. It's really that simple. But to not give him a chance based on his "character" when he also is highly intelligent and can do quantum shiz in his head is pretty silly and backwards thinking. Of course, we're assuming the variable that he IS highly intelligent. I'm sure there are people who act and talk like that who are also pretty intelligent, albeit I'll admit to have never meeting one. Still, the possibility is there.

Also, don't mean to rain down on you, but assuming anything about a person's character without really knowing them is the very meaning of prejudice.

@global-wolf - I don't have a problem with desensitizing individuals to get rid of discrimination, you should read the thread.

 

[BarDulL]

Children's shows include casts with minority characters because it's so important for a kid to be able to see people they can relate to on TV. I don't expect you to have ever thought about this before, but a child is heavily influenced by the images he or she sees. If a black child, for example, watches a program that shows people being successful and rich, but they're all white, he learns subconsciously that white people are successful and rich. And he's not white, and he can feel unincluded. That coupled with society's discrimination of blacks can set in his mind that blacks aren't meant to be successful and rich and that's a tremendous mental barrier.

I have personally never related myself to any character based on skin color. Does that seem odd to you? Your explanation is definitely a plausible one though, but I'm not going to argue it because there are other possibilities. I never gave my hypothesis any strong sense of credibility.

 

[Takeover1806]

When I have time, I will give a candid response to this discussion.

 

[Teran]

If he's not operating within bounds of a public forum, take him out. It's really that simple. But to not give him a chance based on his "character" when he also is highly intelligent and can do quantum shiz in his head is pretty silly and backwards thinking. Of course, we're assuming the variable that he IS highly intelligent. I'm sure there are people who act and talk like that who are also pretty intelligent, albeit I'll admit to have never meeting one. Still, the possibility is there.

Also, don't mean to rain down on you, but assuming anything about a person's character without really knowing them is the very meaning of prejudice.

@global-wolf - I don't have a problem with desensitizing individuals to get rid of discrimination, you should read the thread.

There's more to being a good worker than being brilliant. Raw ability alone isn't the be all end all of a person's traits, other things matter.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I have personally never related myself to any character based on skin color. Does that seem odd to you? Your explanation is definitely a plausible one though, but I'm not going to argue it because there are other possibilities. I never gave my hypothesis any strong sense of credibility.

Did you know that you have made it a habit of declaring that you are excluded from subconscious effects that target people?

 

[Holder of the Heel]

If you are white, then you're not going to acknowledge the "whiteness" of characters to the extent that black people are going to acknowledge the "blackness" of people because one is significantly more of a norm than the other. The same way when describing a person, you rarely hear people say, "Dark hair, young, WHITE" when the individual is white, but you'll hear people say when talking about someone black, "Dark hair, young, and he's black." We're conditioned to kind of assume common, consistent patterns in life, and remark only on the minorities and rare occurrences.

 

[Jon Farron]

If you are white, then you're not going to acknowledge the "whiteness" of characters to the extent that black people are going to acknowledge the "blackness" of people because one is significantly more of a norm than the other. The same way when describing a person, you rarely hear people say, "Dark hair, young, WHITE" when the individual is white, but you'll hear people say when talking about someone black, "Dark hair, young, and he's black." We're conditioned to kind of assume common, consistent patterns in life, and remark only on the minorities and rare occurrences.

That is so true, I've never even thought of that.

 

[global-wolf]

@global-wolf - I don't have a problem with desensitizing individuals to get rid of discrimination, you should read the thread.
I have personally never related myself to any character based on skin color. Does that seem odd to you? Your explanation is definitely a plausible one though, but I'm not going to argue it because there are other possibilities. I never gave my hypothesis any strong sense of credibility.

I have read the entire thread. That's why I questioned why you even brought up the idea of government "desensitizing" people in a cynical manner.

As a non-white, I have personally experienced a disconnect between what I see on TV and my real life circumstances. Like I said, I don't expect you to have ever thought about this before.

 

[BarDulL]

I have a hard time understanding why people think I'm cynical. Maybe I just come off as aggressive or something.

More later when I'm not on m phone.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Did you know that you have made it a habit of declaring that you are excluded from subconscious effects that target people?

But I've made a conscious decision to not be sub- or unconsciously biased towards other people.

 

[BarDulL]

Perhaps I'm just on a different wave length. Here's some background on me:

The city I was raised in, Culver City, has pretty much no discrimination whatsoever. Very peaceful. The populace is very diverse ethnically speaking, and there isn't any gang violence. It's VERY RARE to come across violence/crime in this neighborhood. I also get along with all ethnicities and have friends of mostly every ethnicity. Furthermore, I've seen people of all ethnicities excel at Culver City High School, and I have yet to come across blatant discrimination. Maybe it's just a Culver thing. Although I know discrimination has occurred in the past and hear about it in the present, it's hard to really accept it as a really strong detriment to society because of where I grew up I guess.

Note: Santa Monica/Venice are also pretty liberal areas that I frequent that don't have much if any discrimination (haven't seen any yet.)

I talked to a friend about it and he says that Culver City is practically a haven in comparison to some parts of the mid west. "The coasts are fine for the most part, but it all gets worse as you get closer to the center," or something like that. Hear it's also still pretty bad in the southern districts as well, that's a damn shame. I'd like to change that someday.

I'm not going to get into the whole desensitization thing because I'm tired and don't feel like it, but I more or less process of eliminated my way to it while leaving out some variables.

Acrostic, I actually do try to remain as unbiased as possible towards anyone and everyone if I can help it. There are times when that's just impossible, like friendships or attraction, but I never let things like "skin color" affect my decision making process because using "skin color" as criterion for a decision is stupid at least 99% of the time. Choosing someone over someone else purely because of skin color is ********. Maybe it's logical for you, but it's not for me.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Perhaps I'm just on a different wave length. Here's some background on me:

The city I was raised in, Culver City, has pretty much no discrimination whatsoever. Very peaceful. The populace is very diverse ethnically speaking, and there isn't any gang violence. It's VERY RARE to come across violence/crime in this neighborhood. I also get along with all ethnicities and have friends of mostly every ethnicity. Furthermore, I've seen people of all ethnicities excel at Culver City High School, and I have yet to come across blatant discrimination. Maybe it's just a Culver thing. Although I know discrimination has occurred in the past and hear about it in the present, it's hard to really accept it as a real detriment to society because of where I grew up I guess.

Note: Santa Monica/Venice are also pretty liberal areas that I frequent that don't have much if any discrimination (haven't seen any yet.)

It's great that you've had such a wonderful experience, but the rest of America is simply not like this. I have tons of stories that are the exact opposite of this, but at the end of the day, it would just be exchanging anecdotes. That's what the statistics were for, to demonstrate that for most blacks, things are not that rosy.

 

[BarDulL]

It's great that you've had such a wonderful experience, but the rest of America is simply not like this. I have tons of stories that are the exact opposite of this, but at the end of the day, it would just be exchanging anecdotes. That's what the statistics were for, to demonstrate that for most blacks, things are not that rosy.

i knew you would say that

i'm tired

move to culver city and be a bawss

etc.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Why is it so hard for you to accept that your personal experience does not match everyone else's, or reflect general conditions?

 

[BarDulL]

What? I never said I didn't. I was just being silly because I'm tired as hell, and it seems that no matter how much we talk about it, it feels like work still needs to be done to help with discrimination. I admit AND accept this in my #52 post. I don't know how effective AA is considering some of the articles I've read, most recently the one I read on page 1 of this thread, but I get the idea that people feel it's a step in the right direction for various ethnicities who have gotten the short end of the stick for decades. I hate that it ultimately caters to other ethnicities as a direct result of helping them (while potentially giving disadvantages to other ethnicities), but sometimes you have to fight fire with fire I guess. The end result of this thread is that I'm more or less disappointed that we're just not at that point where we can stop using fire to deal with fire.

I'll be butthurt if someone doesn't get into the university of their choice as a direct result of AA though, mark my words. ~.o

 

[Jam Stunna]

No, I completely understand that. I spend alot of time around rich white kids who just don't understand anyone else's worldview besides their own (why should they? They're rich AND they're white; there's literally no incentive for them to understand people like me), so I can be pretty forceful when it comes to presenting my perspective.

 

[Ramen King]

Umm, you might be saying that to the wrong person, seeing as i'm jewish... Just sayin'

As for the edit 2, I really do hope you're trolling...

Uh yeah both the edits

 

[BarDulL]

I'm pretty stubborn about my perspective because I don't like being a sheep, but eventually I come around to the right verdict after everything seeps in. It's all gravies.

Now I need to sleep.

 

[Luigitoilet]

lol what does that even mean. making an effort to understand and sympathize with other people's plight = sheep?

 

[BarDulL]

Do you like trying to take everything I say out of context or something?

Being a sheep means leting yourself be told what direction to go in without thinking about it...hearing the plights of others is fine, but they still require consideration.

 

[Luco]

If you are white, then you're not going to acknowledge the "whiteness" of characters to the extent that black people are going to acknowledge the "blackness" of people because one is significantly more of a norm than the other. The same way when describing a person, you rarely hear people say, "Dark hair, young, WHITE" when the individual is white, but you'll hear people say when talking about someone black, "Dark hair, young, and he's black." We're conditioned to kind of assume common, consistent patterns in life, and remark only on the minorities and rare occurrences.

Yeah I was gonna say the same thing. Hang on, reading the rest of the thread, will post more in a sec maybe.

@ Ramen: Perfect utopia in an all western society? That won't be a utopia. Not nearly. Diversity is the spice of life, culture and tradition beautiful. :/

I can understand where you're coming from in edit 1... but you have to remember that you're considering these things from your own moral background and can thus not take the ethical high ground here. That's why I accept that these cultures did these things.

Even our culture has been pretty brutal in the past. The hierarchical society we lived on for 700 years or so was rife with divides between the different levels of society... and people thought that was ok.

 

[Ramen King]

I meant that I was trolling in both of them. At least with the wording.

I do believe in a global utopia.

 

[Luco]

I meant that I was trolling in both of them. At least with the wording.

I do believe in a global utopia.

Oh. Lol, don't worry haha.

Also, while I think global utopia would be amazing, I doubt it will happen any time soon if it ever does happen.

Kinda sad but at the same time, I love this world anyway. We've come so far. We still have a long way to go but we're getting there. Our world is amazing.

 

[BarDulL]

I think it's possible as well, but then things like conflict theory come up...

At the very least, I think it's possible to get everyone to the point where we can almost completely get over most of the prejudice we deal with today in regards to ethnicity. I'm not going to bother thinking about it past that for the time being.

Sleeping is hard when there's such great conversation going on.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

They should make affirmative action more ridiculous in order for people to recognize that concepts such as social egalitarianism are implausible, especially when considering the level of entitlement everyone has with respect to how they should be treated by the world at large. They literally should make the standards so ridiculously in favor for minorities that it shimmers as a giant **** you sign. Kind of like the matriculant GPA average for Howard University Medical School which in the 2011 MSAR balanced in around a 3.5 when nearly every other MD school in the US balanced in around 3.8 or 3.9.

Some people just don't get it that abstract concepts such as fairness and justice have little applicability until you hire a lawyer to sui for discrimination charges.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

For a global utopia to exist, any and all threats to that perpetual peace would have to be removed. To do this, you'd basically have to alter humanity itself, which may actually be what ends up happening.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

@Ryker: I believe that Bardull growing up in the utopia that is Culver City, has been nurtured to develop a mental fortitude able to render both conscious and subconscious thoughts under the mastery of his absolute sense of political correctness. He is now free from the shackles of bias and discrimination that bind us mortals.

@Bardull: You realize that I'm making fun of you because you're painting discrimination to be a completely conscious domain. We were discussing global-wolf's post which discusses how stereotypes in media can passively influence some level of thought through the subconsciousness. Your response was completely off tangent, because it addresses discretion on racial coloring again as being a solely conscious decision, which is not what we are addressing by our side comments to you. Also I don't understand why you're trying to bait me with presuming that I've taken a position on an issue I've not even bothered to touch and then proceed to make a denial on it. JUDGING PEOPLE BASED ON COLOR IS STUPID AND WRONG 99% OF THE TIME. This is not even touching the rhetoric of "choosing someone over someone else" which indicates that we're dealing with some narrow situations and not accounting for the overall pictures here. I frankly have no idea which situations are cooking up in that subconscious, as I'm also lost as to how you derived I came to have a stance on any of them.

 

[Luco]

For a global utopia to exist, any and all threats to that perpetual peace would have to be removed. To do this, you'd basically have to alter humanity itself, which may actually be what ends up happening.

You think? I've always thought that because of the huge variables in our society you can't have a utopia and to change it would be to get rid of that diversity which also can't be a utopia (try to imagine a world where everyone is exactly the same as you in thought and morals... it's pretty boring, even for the most daring of people. What's the point of doing something crazy if everyone else is? Does that even make it crazy?).

Unless you were to cull our society, which could also be very bad. Unless our society's numbers went down naturally (a smaller birth rate: Less than 2 children per couple)... Still.

 

[TibIcoTDodo]

Хочу познаком

Привет всем! Помогите познакомитья с парнем. Дайте какой нибуть советик. Вот я если что)

 

[BarDulL]

@Ryker: I believe that Bardull growing up in the utopia that is Culver City, has been nurtured to develop a mental fortitude able to render both conscious and subconscious thoughts under the mastery of his absolute sense of political correctness. He is now free from the shackles of bias and discrimination that bind us mortals.

@Bardull: You realize that I'm making fun of you because you're painting discrimination to be a completely conscious domain. We were discussing global-wolf's post which discusses how stereotypes in media can passively influence some level of thought through the subconsciousness. Your response was completely off tangent, because it addresses discretion on racial coloring again as being a solely conscious decision, which is not what we are addressing by our side comments to you. Also I don't understand why you're trying to bait me with presuming that I've taken a position on an issue I've not even bothered to touch and then proceed to make a denial on it. JUDGING PEOPLE BASED ON COLOR IS STUPID AND WRONG 99% OF THE TIME. This is not even touching the rhetoric of "choosing someone over someone else" which indicates that we're dealing with some narrow situations and not accounting for the overall pictures here. I frankly have no idea which situations are cooking up in that subconscious, as I'm also lost as to how you derived I came to have a stance on any of them.

Yes, I'm aware that making claims about my subconcious is silly since I'm human just like everyone else. I'm consciously aware of the decisions I make after the fact though and I'm pretty self aware.

Like, when I use the words "gay" or "homo", I always feel dumb after using them because I really shouldn't be using them in a world where homosexuality is a big deal, y'know? I don't have anything against people who are homosexual, but I know people who are homosexual that would be offended by me using said lingo. It's like saying the "N" word in a way that isn't derogatory, but it's still silly to use because the word serves as a reminder of past wrongs/has a negative stigma/is considered foul language/etc. So even though sometimes, in the moment, I just use the word without thinking about it, I reflect on it later on. That's a conscious attempt on my part to analyze myself and to intervene with myself when I do something that I feel is wrong.

So, me saying that I typically don't EVER make a decision based on another's skin color is a fair assessment, I feel, of my past self on my part. I ask myself questions like "is there a character that I relate to based on skin color?" "Have I ever been biased towards certain ethnicities?" "Am I biased in recent memory?" "Do I subconsciously choose to make friends with other white people?" "Do I prefer being with other various ethnicities as opposed to being with whites?" I feel the answers to all these questions are "no." However, it's still possible that somewhere, lingering in my subconscious, I somehow prefer to align myself with whites over other ethnicities, but I have not consciously witnessed this in my behavior in recent memory.

Also, I wasn't trying to bait you. Where was I trying to bait you? I'm here for productive conversation, I have no reason to bait you.

 

[BarDulL]

You think? I've always thought that because of the huge variables in our society you can't have a utopia and to change it would be to get rid of that diversity which also can't be a utopia (try to imagine a world where everyone is exactly the same as you in thought and morals... it's pretty boring, even for the most daring of people. What's the point of doing something crazy if everyone else is? Does that even make it crazy?).

Unless you were to cull our society, which could also be very bad. Unless our society's numbers went down naturally (a smaller birth rate: Less than 2 children per couple)... Still.

I feel that as we get closer to a utopia, we're really just becoming more nitpicky in comparison to our past generations. While we're all coming closer to being uniform (lack of prejudice, sharing similar philosophies, loss of religion's impact, etc), our smallest of differentiations will still set us apart, hence "more nitpicky." We'll sorta be analogous to ants in that we all look the same, but we still differentiate slighty.

I don't necessarily think we all have to become uniform to have a utopia though.

 

[Luco]

I feel that as we get closer to a utopia, we're really just becoming more nitpicky in comparison to our past generations. While we're all coming closer to being uniform (lack of prejudice, sharing similar philosophies, loss of religion's impact, etc), our smallest of differentiations will still set us apart, hence "more nitpicky." We'll sorta be analogous to ants in that we all look the same, but we still differentiate slighty.

I don't necessarily think we all have to become uniform to have a utopia though.

Yeah but so much diversity will be lost and that's the tragic part.

Also you have to keep in mind that even if the population is only slightly different, that means there's bound to be something two people disagree on and can argue about. A perfect utopia implies that no discord will come between two people. Thus, not really a perfect utopia.

I could see it happening if there were like less than 50 people in the world that had the same opinions on most things and differing opinions of things that they didn't mind disagreeing about, I suppose.

The idea of a perfect utopia is just so nit-picky in itself because so much good stuff has to be taken out of the equation as well. Personally I love the fact that people disagree with me on stuff and are willing to argue about it. Some people don't. *shrugs*

 

[BarDulL]

Nothing's perfect. Also depends on your definition of utopia. For me, it's "remove prejudice, then get people to the point of agreeing to disagree while not asserting their beliefs onto others." I'm sure that covers most of it. (However, by doing this, this may stagnate progression in theory.)

Frankly, I think cutting down diversity to focus on the smaller aspects will help push us forward intellectually. I'm all for it.

 

[Luco]

Nothing's perfect. Also depends on your definition of utopia. For me, it's "remove prejudice, then get people to the point of agreeing to disagree while not asserting their beliefs onto others." I'm sure that covers most of it. (However, by doing this, this may stagnate progression in theory.)

Frankly, I think cutting down diversity to focus on the smaller aspects will help push us forward intellectually. I'm all for it.

I don't know if I am all for it... I just wouldn't be able to get over the fact that we were all becoming the same, this one big conglomerate. It's like woolies and coles (do you guys have them over there or is it just all Walmart?) destroying small businesses... and in the end themselves for removing the competition (which you almost certainly must have). Having no competition raises prices.... Oh, they're also hurting farmers which will bite them in the back if the farmers stop producing the goods because of such little pay...

Anyway, my point is, everyone hates woolies and coles because they're so big and control the entire supermarket industry... and a bunch of other stuff.

What if we end up hating the fact that western society has taken over everything? What if that very guilt stops us from further intellectual pursuit? Goodness knows the vile situations that happen when a culture merges in to ours. The worst thing is, it's happening TODAY. And i've seen it. People dying in their 50's and 60's because of heart failure, diabetes and kidney failure. People gambling all their money away and not being able to feed their child the next day. People sniffing petrol and beating their wives to death.

All because they chose the deceptively good parts of our culture. People don't hunt, they go to the store and buy a can of coke and a bag of chips. They buy their kangaroo tails from the store now. Some of these people are beginning to lose their way about the desert. For a people that is so placing-oriented, it's a shock when someone says to you 'there's a waterhole past this hill' and it isn't. People get hand-outs and don't have to work. Many of these people spend their lives sitting around in their front yards doing so little that's beneficial to anyone.

And all this because we want to absorb these people in to our culture!? Is this what western society does to a people that don't deserve it!? Can we have a utopia with people STARVING because they don't know how to live in our society, or their own?

I'm sorry if it seems like i'm raising my [text/internet] voice here or being angry but in a way I am. Not at you... But as great as our world is we have problems and some of these are hideous. Truly atrocious things that should not be happening in our world. Whatever road we take is destructive, so the question is now, can we live with the guilt?

Can we?

 

[GreenKirby]

For a global utopia to exist, any and all threats to that perpetual peace would have to be removed. To do this, you'd basically have to alter humanity itself, which may actually be what ends up happening.

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Going off of Luco's point, my problem with "utopia" as its often presented is that it presumes a dominant culture. Personal differences are allowed, but in general everyone would have to look the same, think the same and act the same within the confines of the dominant culture. I don't mean we'd all be robots, but we'd all generally follow the same rules.

That's not necessarily a problem, but who's to say which culture would be dominant? We think about it in terms of others rejecting Western culture, but think about it in reverse instead: what if our utopia adopted Wabaism as the basis for its dominant culture? Or any other non-Western religion or idea for that matter? It's not that I'm worried that would happen, but we'd be just as likely to reject a non-Western culture as non-Westerners would be to reject ours.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

No, that would be the tone you're reading it in.

 

[Luco]

Going off of Luco's point, my problem with "utopia" as its often presented is that it presumes a dominant culture. Personal differences are allowed, but in general everyone would have to look the same, think the same and act the same within the confines of the dominant culture. I don't mean we'd all be robots, but we'd all generally follow the same rules.

That's not necessarily a problem, but who's to say which culture would be dominant? We think about it in terms of others rejecting Western culture, but think about it in reverse instead: what if our utopia adopted Wabaism as the basis for its dominant culture? Or any other non-Western religion or idea for that matter? It's not that I'm worried that would happen, but we'd be just as likely to reject a non-Western culture as non-Westerners would be to reject ours.

Also in any culture or society you have people who break the rules and cause conflict...

 

[BarDulL]

Heel, for the sake of anything and everything that is holy, you should start using Godot gifs. It would make your posts so much cooler. Also, a link to the fragrance of dark coffee at the beginning of each post would be a great plus.

Post was entirely necessary and relevant.

@Luco, I'll respond later if I have the time.