whos the hardest/easiest cpu in brawl+

[codfish92]

i know a lot of people play brawl+ with other people, but a few times i'll play against cpus. I've seen a thread like this in 1-p mode and didn't know if you could put brawl+ stuff in there so i put it in here. just say which cpu character you think is hardest or easiest and why.

I think snake's the easiest because for some reason he only seems to try and c4 stick me. you can just combo him and when he gets near me, i just dodge, the c4 lands on the ground. after about 25 sec, it blows up and the process repeats

toon link is the hardest cpu for me because his ariels are so fast and there is little lag between them that he just juggles you around

 

[dabridge]

CPU's vary by Wii, because they record what you do (this is why your Snake seems easy/Toon Link hard). Everyone's results will be different.

To me the hardest CPU is Meta Knight, and the easiest is Charizard.

 

[metaXzero]

My MK CPU is docile as heck, yet I'm aggressive and the ones I face are to. Though I have been Omnigayed by it...

Anyway, Ivysaur, Kirby, and Mario are retardedly good at B+ adaption. Ike and Gannondorf AIs blow.

 

[camelot]

I've found Ike/Snake/Yoshi to be the easiest, and Luigi/Olimar to be the hardest.

 

[RPGsFTW]

My Falcon, Ganon, Fox, and Lucas seem to be stupid. When they're off stage, they usually die.

-Falcon and Ganon like to dig under the ledges whenever possible, that way they guarantee their deaths.
-Lucas sinks really low before he slams his face under the stage, which is almost all the time.
-Fox likes to jump off the stage, sometimes without attacking, and die.

mAlso, My Luigi attempts to Up-B me randomly, as well as Jigglypuff attempting rests, which are extremely rare anyway.

I'm not too sure, but my Dedede might be sorta smart. But I'm not even sure yet, because they all do something dumb, regardless of lvl.

 

[Sci]

For me, I have found Mario the hardest. Somehow knows to use fireballs and cape.

Toon Link seems pretty easy. seems to be dumbfounded in the air.

 

[Sph34r]

I'd say Falco is by far the easiest. Throw the poor guy offstage and rather then attempting to sweetspot the ledge with phantasm, he'll wait till he's down low and failbird to his death.

The hardest is probably Toon Link (although he's still pretty easy) just because he doesn't die every time he has to recover.

 

[Nybb]

CPU's vary by Wii, because they record what you do (this is why your Snake seems easy/Toon Link hard). Everyone's results will be different.

No. This is definitely not true.

I think CPU's are generally the same, with maybe a few outliers like Snake being really bad. Somebody (GHNeko?) posted some videos not long ago of a CPU Mario doing some absurd edge-guarding, I'll see if I can dig them up again.

 

[Shadic]

Luigi is EVIL.

 

[_Yes!_]

....who cares?

 

[Man of Popsicle]

For me it's samus.

 

[metaXzero]

....who cares?

People care apparently. We are replying.

 

[dabridge]

No. This is definitely not true.

How is this not true? They do record what you do and randomly pull it out in battle. I'm pretty sure CPU's dashdacing to taunt me was something not already included in the disk.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, mine dashdanced and crouch taunted right out of the box.

 

[adrahil]

It's definitely true that they copy what is done to some degree.

 

[_Yes!_]

People care apparently. We are replying.

I know, that's what I don't get .

 

[GHNeko]

No. This is definitely not true.

I think CPU's are generally the same, with maybe a few outliers like Snake being really bad. Somebody (GHNeko?) posted some videos not long ago of a CPU Mario doing some absurd edge-guarding, I'll see if I can dig them up again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWIZpgG5i6E

:V

 

[metaXzero]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWIZpgG5i6E

:V

........Too good :Λ

 

[Nybb]

How is this not true? They do record what you do and randomly pull it out in battle. I'm pretty sure CPU's dashdacing to taunt me was something not already included in the disk.

It's definitely true that they copy what is done to some degree.

No. If they appear to be doing something advanced recently, that is because you would not have noticed the advanced thing before you knew about it. For example, you can see CPU's wavedash in Melee, and it might seem like they are learning from you. In reality, they are just jumping and then reacting to something you did by airdodging diagonally downwards, you only perceive it as a wavedash once you know what a wavedash is.

Also, I'm not trying to sound condescending, but if you knew much about AI and programming you would know how ridiculous this would be, especially for a game like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWIZpgG5i6E

:V

Haha yeah, that was the one I was thinking of. Too good

 

[Arkaether]

Nybb, that's incorrect. Brawl AIs will take repeated input strings and attempt to use them within their own playstyles, often with no results, sometimes with hilarious results, and occasionally with good results.

Also, I'm not trying to sound condescending, but if you knew much about AI and programming you would know how possible it is to incorporate repeated input strings into an AI, especially for a game like this.

 

[Zodac]

they do learn, after converting to + they now airdodge immedately after they get out of hit-stun no matter what, even if i run away from them they will airdodge, then i play normal brawl again and they will continue to do this, quite amusing.

THEY LEARN.

check out luigi Vbrawl dominance

~~LUIGI LEVEL 9 CPU DATA~~

name | vs. | opponent| battle field ko/fall | Final destination ko/fall | smashvil ko/fall| no. of  k0's/falls | head to head winner | overall (everyfight)

1. luigi vs mario | BF- 3/2 | FD- 1/3| SV- 3/2 | 7/7 | DRAW | +0

2. luigi vs. peach | BF- 3/2 | FD- 2/3 | SV- 2/3 | 7/8 | peach | -1

3. luigi vs. bowser | BF- 3/1 | FD- 3/1 | SV- 3/2 | 9/4 | luigi | +4

4. luigi vs. DK | BF- 3/2 | FD- 3/2 | SV- 3/1 | 9/5 | luigi | +8

5. luigi vs. diddy | BF- 2/3 | FD- 3/2 | SV- 3/2 | 8/7 | luigi | +9

6. luigi vs. yoshi | BF- 3/1 | FD- 3/1 | SV- 3/2 | 9/4 | luigi | +14

7. luigi vs. wario | BF- 3/1 | FD- 3/2 | SV- 3/2 | 9/5 | luigi | +18

8. luigi vs. link | BF- 2/3 | FD- 3/1 | SV- 3/0 | 8/4 | luigi | +22

9. luigi vs. zelda | BF- 3/2 | FD- 3/2 | SV- 1/3 | 7/7 | DRAW | +22

10. luigi vs. shiek | BF- 2/3 | FD- 3/2 | SV- 3/2 | 8/7 | luigi | +23

11. luigi vs. gannon | BF- 3/1 | FD- 3/2 | SV- 3/2 | 9/5 | luigi | +27

12. luigi vs. t link | BF- 3/2 | FD- 3/1 | SV- 3/2 | 9/5 | luigi | +31

13. luigi vs. samus | BF- 3/1 | FD- 3/2 | SV- 3/2 | 9/5 | luigi | +35

14. luigi vs. ZSS | BF- 3/1 | FD- 3/1 | SV- 3/0 | 9/2 | luigi | +42

15. luigi vs. pit | BF- 2/3 | FD- 3/1 | SV- 3/1 | 8/5 | luigi | +45

16. luigi vs. IC's | BF- 3/1 | FD- 2/3 | SV- 3/2 | 8/6 | luigi | +47

17. luigi vs. ROB | BF- 3/1 | FD- 3/2 | SV- 2/3 | 8/6 | luigi | +49

18. luigi vs. kirby | BF- 3/2 | FD- 3/1 | SV- 3/1 | 9/4 | luigi | +54

19. luigi vs. MK | BF- 3/2 | FD- 2/1 (MK SD)| SV- 2/3 | 7/6 | luigi | +55

20. luigi vs. DDD | BF- 3/1 | FD- 3/1 | SV- 3/2 | 9/4 | luigi | +60

21. luigi vs. olimar | BF- 2/3 | FD- 3/2 | SV- 1/3 | 6/8 | olimar | +58

22. luigi vs. fox | BF- 3/1 | FD- 2/3 | SV- 3/2 | 8/6 | luigi | +60

23. luigi vs. falco | BF- 3/2 | FD- 3/1 | SV- 1/3 | 7/6 | luigi | +61 

24. luigi vs. wolf | BF- 3/2 | FD- 1/3 | SV- 2/3 | 6/8 | wolf | +59

25. luigi vs. C falcon | BF- 3/2 | FD- 3/2 | SV- 3/1 | 9/5 | luigi |  +63

26. luigi vs. pikachu | BF- 3/2 | FD- 3/2 | SV- 3/2 | 9/6 | luigi | +66 

27. luigi vs. P.T. | BF- 3/1 | FD- 2/3 | SV- 3/2 | 8/6 | luigi | +68

28. luigi vs. lucario | BF- 3/2 | FD- 2/3 | SV- 2/3 | 7/8 | lucario | +67

29. luigi vs. jiggs | BF- 3/1 | FD- 3/2 | SV- 3/0 | 9/3 | luigi | +73

30. luigi vs. marth | BF- 3/1 | FD- 2/3 | SV- 3/1 | 8/5 | luigi | +76

31. luigi vs. ike | BF- 2/3 | FD- 3/2 | SV- 3/1 | 8/6 | luigi | +78

32. luigi vs. ness | BF- 3/2 | FD- 3/2 | SV- 3/1 | 9/5 | luigi | +82

33. luigi vs. lucas | BF- 3/1 | FD- 2/3 | SV- 3/1 | 8/5 | luigi | +85

34. luigi vs. G&W | BF- 2/3 | FD- 3/2 | SV- 3/2 | 8/7 | luigi | +86

35. luigi vs. snake | BF- 3/1 | FD- 3/1 | SV- 3/2 | 9/4 | luigi | +91

36. luigi vs. sonic | BF- 2/3 | FD- 3/0 | SV- 3/0 | 8/3 | luigi | +96

~~fin

 

[grim mouser]

they do learn, after converting to + they now airdodge immedately after they get out of hit-stun no matter what, even if i run away from them they will airdodge, then i play normal brawl again and they will continue to do this, quite amusing.

They do this in vBrawl too (ASAP after the tiny amount of hitstun in vBrawl). They've done it since the game was released. It's the reason some people thought ADs reduced knockback distance.

 

[Revven]

Mario is by far the hardest for me. Fox is the easiest (always ADs offstage to his doom... tisk tisk). Luigi right after Mario and Peach right after Luigi.

 

[Dihan]

I've only had Brawl+ for about 2 days now and so I've been trying out characters (I like Zelda - my vBrawl main - Link, Ivysaur and Sheik). I've only played against CPUs so far and I've found that Fox or Diddy are the hardest for me - Fox just combos too well and Diddy is irritating. Snake is by far the easiest. I four stocked a lvl 9 Snake and I only took 6% damage. With Zelda. It took just over 1 minute. Granted, he did fail at recovering a few times thanks to Din's knocking him down as he was trying to recover.

 

[kuenzel]

Mario is by far the hardest for me. Fox is the easiest (always ADs offstage to his doom... tisk tisk). Luigi right after Mario and Peach right after Luigi.

I have a replay of me recovering back to the stage vs a CF, then him randomly running to the other side of FD and reverse-falcon punching the corner part, then Nairing to his doom.
WTF.

 

[Plum]

Luigi CPU's are just scary good.
They always take the highest risk/reward options.
And ALWAYS get the reward. And its scary how he knows exactly what Nair does. ***** combos. He has even Nair to Up B and Dthrow to Up B on me.

Easiest are *insert fast faller here*
They just didn't translate well into the new gravity settings. Jump of the stage, airdodge, SD. All day.

 

[KadeshSa]

Yep, Luigi for me too. **** that nair.

 

[Zodac]

I have a replay of me recovering back to the stage vs a CF, then him randomly running to the other side of FD and reverse-falcon punching the corner part, then Nairing to his doom.
WTF.

This is because you updated your codeset after you saved the replay, all your replays that didn't use the curent codeset will be screwed.

 

[Sph34r]

CPU's don't learn, and that's a fact.

I've mirrored my Falco AT LEAST 100 times already since this game came out and he still can't do SHDL, SHL, the CG, dair as an approach, recovering with phantasm, or pretty much ANYTHING I do. In fact, he spams reflector, which is something I never do. Hey, you know what? I went to my friend's house once and got the same result; the same shine-spamming Falco who uses firebird to recover horizontally.

CPU's come with preprogrammed attack strings that they spam at you without regard to what you're doing. The only reason one may think CPU's learn is because by having this mindset, he only mentally takes note the CPU did something intelligent, and blatantly disregards the 99 other times the CPU was doing its usual stupid thing.

 

[Shadic]

This is because you updated your codeset after you saved the replay, all your replays that didn't use the curent codeset will be screwed.

Actually, I'm fairly certain that CPU's don't desync through code changes, if I remember correctly. Only player input is recorded - The CPU's just do their thing.

 

[metaXzero]

CPU's don't learn, and that's a fact.

I've mirrored my Falco AT LEAST 100 times already since this game came out and he still can't do SHDL, SHL, the CG, dair as an approach, recovering with phantasm, or pretty much ANYTHING I do. In fact, he spams reflector, which is something I never do. Hey, you know what? I went to my friend's house once and got the same result; the same shine-spamming Falco who uses firebird to recover horizontally.

CPU's come with preprogrammed attack strings that they spam at you without regard to what you're doing. The only reason one may think CPU's learn is because by having this mindset, he only mentally takes note the CPU did something intelligent, and blatantly disregards the 99 other times the CPU was doing its usual stupid thing.

Because your experience= EVERYONES experience amirite?

I love this logic.

Anyway, what do people make of CPUS starting to crouch spam?

 

[Sph34r]

Because your experience= EVERYONES experience amirite?

Well, I could go on listing all of my friend's names and refer you to everyone else on the internet who thinks the same as I do, but that would be very tedious and time consuming. Go do a bit of research is all I can say. You also have yet to counterpoint any of my other statements, so no, urnotrite.

If I remember correctly, there's already a thread on this exact topic, of which the majority of posters say their AI don't learn.

I love this logic.

Refer to what I said previously, and next time, have some self respect.

Anyway, what do people make of CPUS starting to crouch spam?

Very likely some hiccup in the CPU coding because of something you're doing. This wouldn't be the first game to have bugs.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

My Falco and Dedede started chainthrowing me in vBrawl. >.>
Don't know if they "learned" it, but it didn't stop it from surprising me.

Easiest is one of the spacies. Any one, really.

Hardest, I really can't say.

 

[ph00tbag]

CPUs don't learn. The fact is, they played a fairly advanced metagame when the game came out, as far as smash CPUs go, at least some did. They tended to space aerials very well, and generally played very defensive games with long-range moves. They were well-suited to the Brawl engine, since they rarely attempted risky combos and rarely pressed their advantage unsafely. Not to mention they could powershield on command, and could be frame-perfect at any time. They even did creative things with the Brawl engine that we really didn't use very often. At the time, for us, it was just the silly things CPUs did.

Within a few months, our metagame reached and surpassed theirs, and people started noticing them doing things that had been discovered, but that they couldn't recall CPUs doing, mostly because they didn't take note of them at the time. They thought the CPUs had learned from them, because they assumed that the game designers didn't know how to play this game, and wouldn't have programmed the CPUs with a decent metagame. It's a fair assumption, given the history that Smash AI designers have.

But in this case, it's a false assumption, and Brawl CPUs were actually really well-designed (well, some of them). They don't learn, they're just not terrible at this game. They're bad, at the level we play at now, but they're not terrible.

 

[adrahil]

The CPUs definitely copy input strings. This is easy and generally light on memory as it is stored in much the same way a replay is, just a small string of input. But with AI memory it is even shorter. They do not remember long ranging strategies, just the occasional, regularly used short input strings. This is especially noticeable on death, and how I solidified the fact that they do. I always taunt on a kill. Plain old taunt. So do my CPUs, this is all fine and normal. One of my friends always crouch cancels taunts, every time. So do his CPUs on his wii. Almost every time. Mine have never done that. Similarly, someone said their AI dash dances on a kill. That wouldn't even make sense for a preprogrammed vbrawl AI, because dash dancing was impossible in its current form, and the AI on my game has never dash danced once, and neither have I. Attacks are harder to follow and you can always say 'well the computer is just good.' But it's non attack behaviors that can be clearly noticed as different between consoles.

 

[metaXzero]

Well, I could go on listing all of my friend's names and refer you to everyone else on the internet who thinks the same as I do, but that would be very tedious and time consuming. Go do a bit of research is all I can say. You also have yet to counterpoint any of my other statements, so no, urnotrite.

If I remember correctly, there's already a thread on this exact topic, of which the majority of posters say their AI don't learn.



Refer to what I said previously, and next time, have some self respect.



Very likely some hiccup in the CPU coding because of something you're doing. This wouldn't be the first game to have bugs.

And I could refer to everyone on the Internet who DOESN'T think the same as you do. Your point?

Yeah. Conviently when you die or in a position where you can't immediately counter-attack, AI's will crouch spam after several months of not doing it and certain Wiis STILL not gaving crouch spammy AIs.

My point is that it neither side is straight fact at the moment (like you are saying).

 

[Sph34r]

I always taunt on a kill. Plain old taunt. So do my CPUs, this is all fine and normal. One of my friends always crouch cancels taunts, every time. So do his CPUs on his wii. Almost every time. Mine have never done that. Similarly, someone said their AI dash dances on a kill. That wouldn't even make sense for a preprogrammed vbrawl AI, because dash dancing was impossible in its current form, and the AI on my game has never dash danced once, and neither have I.

CPU's taunt on every console, whether or not you do it. Try it.

Also, could you post a replay of an AI dash dancing more then twice (as in turn around once then again)? I will admit I've seen a 2 turn dash dance once by my CPU's, but I usually make the length 7 times and they have yet to try that instead of just taunting every time.

And I could refer to everyone on the Internet who DOESN'T think the same as you do. Your point?

Yeah. Conviently when you die or in a position where you can't immediately counter-attack, AI's will crouch spam after several months of not doing it and certain Wiis STILL not gaving crouch spammy AIs.

My point is that it neither side is straight fact at the moment (like you are saying).

You posted while I was replying, so here's a reply:

Think of it like a proof in geometry. When you try to prove something, you don't assume it's true then wait for someone to disprove you, you're supposed to provide evidence as to how what you're saying IS true. You have yet to supply any evidence at all as to how what you're saying is correct.

It's usually a lot more work to prove then to disprove, by the way.

 

[BeepBopRobot]

I know for a fact, that this has some sort of relevance. It may however not be that the computer is copying you, but the more times you beat it, the harder your lv 9 cpus get.

The following is the backstory, you can skip it if you want.

My friend and i were bored one day and decided to fight my level 9 bowser and level 9 donkey kong on a team vs us 2 using jigglypuff on a team. We weren't legitimately fighting them, we were just trying to do a "rest combo." this would consist of one of us floating above the enemy while the other does rest. It would hit the enemy up and into the other, where the other would do rest, resulting in consecutive rests that looked really cool.


What happened:

At first my DK and bowser would punish a missed rest, and would also hit us as we floated around and near them. However after they whooped us for a few games, we noticed they got progressivly worse. They would stop attacking us, or wait to attack us for a long time when we got close to them, until it got to the point where they acted almost similiar to level 1 cpus, standing there, doing nothing. I mean they even started to just blankly stare at us after we messed up a rest and not punish.

I also noticed that all my level 9 cpu's were incredibly easy to defeat after that, as opposed to before where they might damage me for around 50%.

Conclusions that can be drawn from this:

While this may not prove that they learn from you, it proves that they have a varying degree of AI intelligence at level 9, that can be either horrible, or okay.


Edit: We were playing vbrawl at the time, thats why rest combo worked.

 

[metaXzero]

@sp34r
Then why are you assuming that the "Brawl AI doesn't learn AT ALL" statement is proven and has to be the one disproven? Far as I can tell, both sides have butted head multiple times and neither reach an agreeable conclusion (certain things like crouch spamming, added behaviors, and how only certain Wiis will have this are never refutted).

 

[zephyrnereus]

can someone post a link to the vid where CF only attacks with Falcon Punch? that is funny and proves that they learn.