Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Nerdicon]

So, what you're saying is that they basically take place in two different universes/canons.

If that's the case, then game Kirby =/= anime Kirby, since Kirby can't be in both of those at once.

I rest my case.

Yet so do the Pokemon anime and games.

May want to take the case again Mr. Munomario777

 

[Munomario777]

Yet so do the Pokemon anime and games.

May want to take the case again Mr. Munomario777

I'm not an expert on Pokemon by any means (nor was I trying to prove anything about it), so I'll let someone else discuss that. However, I DO know another example of this in another franchise, and I think it can help illustrate my point.

Enter Sonic Boom. This three-pronged spinoff of the Sonic series consists of two games, a TV series, and merchandise. While this universe has many similarities to the main series (the characters, Rings, speed pads, etc.), it has also been stated to be in a different universe from the main series. This means a different Sonic, Tails, Eggman, etc. This is comparable to the Kirby situation. Right Back At Ya has Kirby characters, Copy Abilities, etc., but has quite a few differences and takes place in a different universe. Again, different Kirby, different Dedede, Meta Knight, etc.

 

[kirby_queen]

So basically, Sonic has gone through dimensions more times than Kirby (the special stages alone are more than enough). Both are impressive feat backlogs, though.

I'm not saying that the Wisps are comparable to Kirby's Copy Abilities. I'm saying that Sonic's arsenal as a whole is more than comparable to the Copy Abilities. Sonic has a sword (Excalibur/Caliburn from Sonic and the Black Knight). He can send out blades of air, as well as creating tornadoes. Sonic has pyrokinesis in his Darkspine form (from Sonic and the Secret Rings), as well as the Burst Wisp which turns him into a living fireball. The others aren't anything that Sonic's other abilities couldn't more than make up for. As for the whole time travel thing, I'd say that's equally as impressive as (if not more impressive than) inter-dimensional travel (plus, as I said, the Special Stages alone are more than Kirby's dimensional travel record).

Sonic's arsenal is not just a "Wisp switch up and spin dash." I won't go into much detail here (I already did that a while back), but basically, he can move at the speed of light, shred through entire battleships (and that's not even moving at the speed of sound, let alone the speed of light), has superhuman strength, can manipulate wind, sense danger, blast through enemies/obstacles with his face, survive atmospheric reentry, heal himself at will, and more. And that's not even counting his transformations (becoming invincible, flying, moving even faster, becoming even stronger, and more for up to eleven days straight) and power-ups (slowing down/stopping/travelling through time, teleporting, turning into a laser/rocket/black hole/bomb/etc., creating shields, shrinking, levitating, and more). Saying Sonic is just a "Wisp switch up and spin dash" is like saying that Kirby is just an inhale switch up and float.

Not really because inhale again results in more diversity in action ON a regular basis than Sonic has on the regular outside of odd spin off titles where he has it for one game. Kirby's gone across in most games and I'm not adding spin offs and time travel to fluff a list

 

[kirby_queen]

So basically, Sonic has gone through dimensions more times than Kirby (the special stages alone are more than enough). Both are impressive feat backlogs, though.

I'm not saying that the Wisps are comparable to Kirby's Copy Abilities. I'm saying that Sonic's arsenal as a whole is more than comparable to the Copy Abilities. Sonic has a sword (Excalibur/Caliburn from Sonic and the Black Knight). He can send out blades of air, as well as creating tornadoes. Sonic has pyrokinesis in his Darkspine form (from Sonic and the Secret Rings), as well as the Burst Wisp which turns him into a living fireball. The others aren't anything that Sonic's other abilities couldn't more than make up for. As for the whole time travel thing, I'd say that's equally as impressive as (if not more impressive than) inter-dimensional travel (plus, as I said, the Special Stages alone are more than Kirby's dimensional travel record).

Sonic's arsenal is not just a "Wisp switch up and spin dash." I won't go into much detail here (I already did that a while back), but basically, he can move at the speed of light, shred through entire battleships (and that's not even moving at the speed of sound, let alone the speed of light), has superhuman strength, can manipulate wind, sense danger, blast through enemies/obstacles with his face, survive atmospheric reentry, heal himself at will, and more. And that's not even counting his transformations (becoming invincible, flying, moving even faster, becoming even stronger, and more for up to eleven days straight) and power-ups (slowing down/stopping/travelling through time, teleporting, turning into a laser/rocket/black hole/bomb/etc., creating shields, shrinking, levitating, and more). Saying Sonic is just a "Wisp switch up and spin dash" is like saying that Kirby is just an inhale switch up and float.

Not really because inhale again results in more diversity in action ON a regular basis than Sonic has on the regular outside of odd spin off titles where he has it for one game. Kirby's gone across in most games and I'm not adding spin offs and time travel to fluff a list

Sonic I believe also has more games in total for franchise so just because you list more doesn't mean that Kirby hasn't been doing what he's been doing for most of his franchise and that it's very much a part of his regular existence.

 

[Munomario777]

Not really because inhale again results in more diversity in action ON a regular basis than Sonic has on the regular outside of odd spin off titles where he has it for one game. Kirby's gone across in most games and I'm not adding spin offs and time travel to fluff a list

Sonic I believe also has more games in total for franchise so just because you list more doesn't mean that Kirby hasn't been doing what he's been doing for most of his franchise and that it's very much a part of his regular existence.

Did you even read my post? Because I'm not listing all of those abilities if you're just going to ignore them. Whether or not something is on a regular basis or not is irrelevant; if Sonic did something once, he can do it again. Also, again, the list WITHOUT spinoffs and WITHOUT time travel (in fact, just the Special Stages) is ALREADY more than the list you provided. I added the time travel and spinoffs because I wanted to cover every angle.

The ratio of games to games with dimensional travel is irrelevant here. Just because Sonic has more games doesn't mean that his feats are any less significant.

By the way, if you want to add something to a post, use the edit button instead of creating a new post.

 

[Meta_Ridley]

Wouldn't the Wisps count as allies?

 

[Munomario777]

Wouldn't the Wisps count as allies?

Only if the Super Mushrooms from Mario would because they have eyes, or if the Fairies from Zelda would count as allies. They function as power-ups in-game.

 

[kirby_queen]

Did you even read my post? Because I'm not listing all of those abilities if you're just going to ignore them. Whether or not something is on a regular basis or not is irrelevant; if Sonic did something once, he can do it again. Also, again, the list WITHOUT spinoffs and WITHOUT time travel (in fact, just the Special Stages) is ALREADY more than the list you provided. I added the time travel and spinoffs because I wanted to cover every angle.

The ratio of games to games with dimensional travel is irrelevant here. Just because Sonic has more games doesn't mean that his feats are any less significant.

By the way, if you want to add something to a post, use the edit button instead of creating a new post.

The double post happened by mistake cause the page wasn't loading. I realize I could've edited it but thanks for the two cents, lol.
Regularity does matter because Sonic can't just do those things again outside of the specific events. When will Sonic be a knight again? How do we know it's something he can do again and not just a consequence of that world? Where as Kirby's inhale is the eseence of his character. Being a knight is not what Sonic is about. Anyway I don't want to keep talking about dimensions or Sonic games. I know Sonic fans are a passionate bunch so I know this can go in circles forever. We're talking about a character whose very natural state is being able to access and master a weapon and power at mere instant consumption versus a character who sometimes is knight or has another power when he sometimes leaves his world. It's not at his immediate disposal. You'll however are convinced that no matter what he's done once in a game is the same as what Kirby can do in most of his games and inheritedly empowered by. I can accept that others feel differently.

 

[Munomario777]

The double post happened by mistake cause the page wasn't loading. I realize I could've edited it but thanks for the two cents, lol.

No worries.

Regularity does matter because Sonic can't just do those things again outside of the specific events. When will Sonic be a knight again? How do we know it's something he can do again and not just a consequence of that world? Where as Kirby's inhale is the eseence of his character. Being a knight is not what Sonic is about. Anyway I don't want to keep talking about dimensions or Sonic games. I know Sonic fans are a passionate bunch so I know this can go in circles forever. We're talking about a character whose very natural state is being able to access and master a weapon and power at mere instant consumption versus a character who sometimes is knight or has another power when he sometimes leaves his world. It's not at his immediate disposal. You'll however are convinced that no matter what he's done once in a game is the same as what Kirby can do in most of his games and inheritedly empowered by. I can accept that others feel differently.

Sonic will be a knight again when he holds the sword again and turns into a knight again (which, due to the best-of-all-games nature of this thread, we're assuming he can do). It doesn't matter if something is the "essence" of his character. If we go with that, every character will be a one-trick pony (Mario just jumps, Sonic just spins, Kirby just inhales, Link just uses a sword, and everything gets really boring really fast). I'm fine with not talking about dimensions or that kind of stuff anymore. Again, due to the nature of the thread, we're assuming anything that happened once can happen again (Sonic would be fine with just his recurring abilities, though; the Emeralds plus his natural abilities are more than enough in Kirby's case at least). I assume you take Hypernova into account when discussing Kirby, yet that happened only in one game. The Copy Essence Deluxe, which gives Kirby access to his abilities normally gained from enemies (which you've been assuming he can do), only appeared in one sub-game (being Milky Way Wishes) in Kirby Super Star and its remake. Without game-specific abilities/items, Kirby can only imitate his opponent (which could result in a tie at best, due to the nature of copying the opponent), fly, perform some standard punches/kicks, and spit out air.

 

[kirby_queen]

No worries.

Sonic will be a knight again when he holds the sword again and turns into a knight again (which, due to the best-of-all-games nature of this thread, we're assuming he can do). It doesn't matter if something is the "essence" of his character. If we go with that, every character will be a one-trick pony (Mario just jumps, Sonic just spins, Kirby just inhales, Link just uses a sword, and everything gets really boring really fast). I'm fine with not talking about dimensions or that kind of stuff anymore. Again, due to the nature of the thread, we're assuming anything that happened once can happen again (Sonic would be fine with just his recurring abilities, though; the Emeralds plus his natural abilities are more than enough in Kirby's case at least). I assume you take Hypernova into account when discussing Kirby, yet that happened only in one game. The Copy Essence Deluxe, which gives Kirby access to his abilities normally gained from enemies (which you've been assuming he can do), only appeared in one sub-game (being Milky Way Wishes) in Kirby Super Star and its remake. Without game-specific abilities/items, Kirby can only imitate his opponent (which could result in a tie at best, due to the nature of copying the opponent), fly, perform some standard punches/kicks, and spit out air.

I don't think comparing Kirby's inhale to a kick or spin makes sense. These are single move attacks that don't provide more diverse ways to destroy enemes. I never included hypernova for the same reasons I don't think you should include the knight thing. Kirby only has the ability to hold powers in Milky Way Wishes but can inhale and still master any move other games. I never mentioned fluff like Hyper Nova abilities, Milky Way Wishes, Love love powers, rainbow sword, or Star Rod cause I don't have to. I feel his basic inhale is an incredibly powerful default ability.

 

[Munomario777]

I don't think comparing Kirby's inhale to a kick or spin makes sense. These are single move attacks that don't provide more diverse ways to destroy enemes. I never included hypernova for the same reasons I don't think you should include the knight thing. Kirby only has the ability to hold powers in Milky Way Wishes but can inhale and still master any move other games. I never mentioned fluff like Hyper Nova abilities, Milky Way Wishes, Love love powers, rainbow sword, or Star Rod cause I don't have to. I feel his basic inhale is an incredibly powerful default ability.

I meant more in the sense that spinning, inhaling, etc. is what the characters are known for. I think we should include Hypernova and the like, since it's something in the characters' repertoire. Kirby can't master any move by just inhaling; there has to be something for him to suck up (unless, of course, we include the Copy Essence Deluxe and other one-time items/abilities, which I am). The basic Inhale isn't a powerful move by itself; there has to be something devastating for him to suck up. The Inhale is only as much as what you put into it, and the Copy Essence Deluxe is the only way for Kirby to have the kind of variety you're talking about.

 

[kirby_queen]

I meant more in the sense that spinning, inhaling, etc. is what the characters are known for. I think we should include Hypernova and the like, since it's something in the characters' repertoire. Kirby can't master any move by just inhaling; there has to be something for him to suck up (unless, of course, we include the Copy Essence Deluxe and other one-time items/abilities, which I am). The basic Inhale isn't a powerful move by itself; there has to be something devastating for him to suck up. The Inhale is only as much as what you put into it, and the Copy Essence Deluxe is the only way for Kirby to have the kind of variety you're talking about.

No the variety I'm talking about are the movesets or varied abilities and they ARE a part of Kirby's basic inhale ability. Mario's stomp doesn't result more moves or abilities. Inhale + Powers is Kirby's basic and most trademark ability. This results in many moves and powers. Mario's is stomping and Sonic's is going fast and spin dash. If we strip the games in their most basic bare bones skeletons, this would be what the games and heros come down to. Kirby's basic ability though still grants him great variety.

 

[Munomario777]

No the variety I'm talking about are the movesets or varied abilities and they ARE a part of Kirby's basic inhale ability. Mario's stomp doesn't result more moves or abilities. Inhale + Powers is Kirby's basic and most trademark ability. This results in many moves and powers. Mario's is stomping and Sonic's is going fast and spin dash. If we strip the games in their most basic bare bones skeletons, this would be what the games and heros come down to. Kirby's basic ability though still grants him great variety.

The powers aren't a part of the Inhale, but they're partially a result of it (as in the Inhale is the only way to copy an ability, but he can't get one out of thin air just by inhaling; there has to be something to copy). It may be his trademark ability, but it relies on either an enemy or a Copy Essence Deluxe to perform. We're not stripping down games here. We're pitting characters against each other. The focus of gameplay has no relevance here. I don't see where you got this "stripping down characters" thought from this thread. This thread is about taking characters' abilities from all of their games, adding all of that together, and evaluating based on that who would be the strongest.

 

[Crystanium]

You're forgetting the fact that Sonic, in his spinnball form, has torn through entire battleships without even reaching the speed of sound. You mentioned some of the spikes that have damaged Samus's being described as tearing through iron, steel, etc. So can Sonic's spikes. Not to mention the countless solid steel robots he can destroy when he's just charging up his Spin Dash, with zero velocity applied.

I was under the impression that Sonic is at least always traveling at sonic speed. This wouldn't be enough to tear through entire battleships, unless the battleship is weak to begin with.

I made mention of enemies capable of piercing metal to show how powerful enemies in Metroid really are, including "cannon fodder". Clearly, these enemies have different levels of sharpness and there are reasons for why these sharp attacks will harm Samus. Heck, not even the exoskeleton of space pirates could be chitin and/or calcium carbonate, for example, because of the high temperatures they can dwell in.

Sonic's hair is meant to be the spines of a hedgehog, which would be made up of keratin. Perhaps it would be wrong to use Mohs scale of hardness, as it is meant only for homogeneous minerals, i.e., materials made up of only one mineral. Our nails are made up of hard keratin, and if I'm able to scratch into graphite, then it means my nails are harder than graphite. However, I cannot scratch aluminum, so it's not harder than that.

Of course, Sonic's hair just might be different, as it seems to be hair (which is also made of keratin), but aside from Super Smash Bros. Brawl, I've never seen Sonic's hair do any damage. Then again, I've only played maybe two or three Sonic games. So, Sonic is 3'3", or 99.06 cm. I'll take Sonic Lost World for Sonic's most recent appearance. From the opening scene with Sonic on an airplane, he's 247 px., which is equal to 99.06 cm.

One of Sonic's hair is 39 px., or 15.641052631578951018 cm. long. I suppose we could just say the tip of his hair is 1 px., which would equal to 0.401052631578945684 cm. The width is 34 px., or 13.635789473684212692 cm. I would need to take just the tip, however, so using the formula to find the surface area of a cone, the height will be 0.401052631578945684 cm. and the radius will be 0.200526315789472842. This gives a surface area of 0.41 cm. Let's assume Sonic is running Mach 1 and happens to hit with one spike. Sonic is 35 kg. The force would be 12,005 N. 12,005 N / 0.41 cm^2 is 293 megapascals. Three would be 879 MPa, which isn't as high as the 12 gigapascals.

 

[Munomario777]

I was under the impression that Sonic is at least always traveling at sonic speed. This wouldn't be enough to tear through entire battleships, unless the battleship is weak to begin with.

It's from Sonic Heroes, in the Egg Fleet level. Since his velocity at that point is so low, I'm assuming it's from the speed his actual spines spin at. Of course, this could just be a case of speeds being reduced visually due to hardware limitations, and Sonic could be moving at the speed of sound in that instance.

I made mention of enemies capable of piercing metal to show how powerful enemies in Metroid really are, including "cannon fodder". Clearly, these enemies have different levels of sharpness and there are reasons for why these sharp attacks will harm Samus. Heck, not even the exoskeleton of space pirates could be chitin and/or calcium carbonate, for example, because of the high temperatures they can dwell in.

Sonic's hair is meant to be the spines of a hedgehog, which would be made up of keratin. Perhaps it would be wrong to use Mohs scale of hardness, as it is meant only for homogeneous minerals, i.e., materials made up of only one mineral. Our nails are made up of hard keratin, and if I'm able to scratch into graphite, then it means my nails are harder than graphite. However, I cannot scratch aluminum, so it's not harder than that.

Of course, Sonic's hair just might be different, as it seems to be hair (which is also made of keratin), but aside from Super Smash Bros. Brawl, I've never seen Sonic's hair do any damage. Then again, I've only played maybe two or three Sonic games. So, Sonic is 3'3", or 99.06 cm. I'll take Sonic Lost World for Sonic's most recent appearance. From the opening scene with Sonic on an airplane, he's 247 px., which is equal to 99.06 cm.

One of Sonic's hair is 39 px., or 15.641052631578951018 cm. long. I suppose we could just say the tip of his hair is 1 px., which would equal to 0.401052631578945684 cm. The width is 34 px., or 13.635789473684212692 cm. I would need to take just the tip, however, so using the formula to find the surface area of a cone, the height will be 0.401052631578945684 cm. and the radius will be 0.200526315789472842. This gives a surface area of 0.41 cm. Let's assume Sonic is running Mach 1 and happens to hit with one spike. Sonic is 35 kg. The force would be 12,005 N. 12,005 N / 0.41 cm^2 is 293 megapascals. Three would be 879 MPa, which isn't as high as the 12 gigapascals.

Very interesting calculations. However, I don't think Sonic is meant to imitate real life hedgehogs (he's blue, he's anthropomorphic, his spines have fur IIRC, he runs at the speed of sound, etc.). In cases like this, I say gameplay/lore/etc. override real life science, since video game physics aren't always the same as those of real life. On the subject of Sonic using his spines for attack, it happens whenever he curls up into a ball. It's just most apparent in Smash Brothers because he's not spinning around at high speeds, so it's easier to see exactly what is happening.

 

[kirby_queen]

The powers aren't a part of the Inhale, but they're partially a result of it (as in the Inhale is the only way to copy an ability, but he can't get one out of thin air just by inhaling; there has to be something to copy). It may be his trademark ability, but it relies on either an enemy or a Copy Essence Deluxe to perform. We're not stripping down games here. We're pitting characters against each other. The focus of gameplay has no relevance here. I don't see where you got this "stripping down characters" thought from this thread. This thread is about taking characters' abilities from all of their games, adding all of that together, and evaluating based on that who would be the strongest.

Except for most enemies have an ability Kirby can copy. So even with just the inhale he'd be fine. However if we're going to be adding all of the characters accomplishments, than Kirby still impresses here to. Able to ride Legendary Vehicles, Sell the Triforce, destroy the sun and moon, killing absolute nightmarish abominations, swallow enemies the size of buildings, explode, wield the Star Rod, call a phoenix, destroy metroids,etc etc etc...

Let's just agree to disagree but I still think Kirby's most glaring weakness is simply his age. If he's done all this before he can mature imagine what an adult Kirby could do.

 

[Meta_Ridley]

Only if the Super Mushrooms from Mario would because they have eyes, or if the Fairies from Zelda would count as allies. They function as power-ups in-game.

They're listed as an "extraterrestrial alien race," and they are definitely introduced as characters, not power-ups.

From what I've read, the power-ups Sonic gets from them are temporary, only lasting for as long as Sonic has the Wisp absorbed. It's not an inherent ability that Sonic can possess forever after absorbing one, nor is it an item that Sonic can bring out. There are the Wisp Capsules, but those were Wisps imprisoned by Eggman and wouldn't be available for a couple of reasons.

 

[Crystanium]

It's from Sonic Heroes, in the Egg Fleet level. Since his velocity at that point is so low, I'm assuming it's from the speed his actual spines spin at. Of course, this could just be a case of speeds being reduced visually due to hardware limitations, and Sonic could be moving at the speed of sound in that instance.

Very interesting calculations. However, I don't think Sonic is meant to imitate real life hedgehogs (he's blue, he's anthropomorphic, his spines have fur IIRC, he runs at the speed of sound, etc.). In cases like this, I say gameplay/lore/etc. override real life science, since video game physics aren't always the same as those of real life. On the subject of Sonic using his spines for attack, it happens whenever he curls up into a ball. It's just most apparent in Smash Brothers because he's not spinning around at high speeds, so it's easier to see exactly what is happening.

That's fine, but if we're going to dismiss science because lore says something else, then we cannot use science even for the lore. In other words, the speed at which Sonic runs should be considered meaningless because the universe may very well function differently from our own and the Sonicverse may appear Earth-like.

 

[Munomario777]

Except for most enemies have an ability Kirby can copy. So even with just the inhale he'd be fine.

My point here is that the battlefield we're using here doesn't have any enemies to begin with. It's a ten-mile-wide arena, with a flat concrete floor and infinitely high solid steel walls, both of which are impenetrable.

However if we're going to be adding all of the characters accomplishments, than Kirby still impresses here to. Able to ride Legendary Vehicles, Sell the Triforce, destroy the sun and moon, killing absolute nightmarish abominations, swallow enemies the size of buildings, explode, wield the Star Rod, call a phoenix, destroy metroids,etc etc etc...

Sonic rode incredibly fast Extreme Gear, anyone can sell something, and I can't see what good destroying the sun/moon would do anyway. Sonic killed multiple nightmarish abominations (god monsters even!), destroy a fleet of spaceships the size of buildings, explode, and anyone can hold a stick with a star on it. I'm not sure what a Phoenix is, but Samus has destroyed Metroids at least every other game.

Let's just agree to disagree but I still think Kirby's most glaring weakness is simply his age. If he's done all this before he can mature imagine what an adult Kirby could do.

Okay, if this doesn't convince you, I'll agree to disagree as well.

They're listed as an "extraterrestrial alien race," and they are definitely introduced as characters, not power-ups.

Actually, the first level of Sonic Colors happens without a cutscene before it, and introduces the White Wisp (the one that gives Sonic Boost power). Also, Sonic Generations/Lost World had the Wisps without any real story integration at all.

From what I've read, the power-ups Sonic gets from them are temporary, only lasting for as long as Sonic has the Wisp absorbed.

Correct. Each Wisp only has one limited-time use.

It's not an inherent ability that Sonic can possess forever after absorbing one, nor is it an item that Sonic can bring out. There are the Wisp Capsules, but those were Wisps imprisoned by Eggman and wouldn't be available for a couple of reasons.

Actually, Sonic can store Wisp Capsules in his inventory in Sonic Lost World (second item from the top in the far right inventory):

Spoiler: Large image

That's fine, but if we're going to dismiss science because lore says something else, then we cannot use science even for the lore. In other words, the speed at which Sonic runs should be considered meaningless because the universe may very well function differently from our own and the Sonicverse may appear Earth-like.

Well, what I'm talking about here is a sort of hierarchy for reliability. For instance:

Creators clarifying something > [original language lore > translated lore > in-game events]* > real-world science/reasoning.
*sometimes, in cases where lore isn't represented well due to technical/gameplay/etc. reasons

The reason that real-world science and reasoning are at the bottom is because, as has been brought up before, video game worlds are often different from ours from a science standpoint. However, when nothing else says anything on the matter (for instance, exactly how much pressure Samus's suit can withstand), real-world science and reasoning can be used to determine it. This goes without saying, but anything higher in the hierarchy overrides anything different said below it (such as translation errors, misrepresented lore in gameplay, etc.).

Of course, there's probably going to be a special case or two for this, and there's probably some ways it could be improved; I'm open to feedback on this.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Ah, thanks.
I am actually a beginner in FE and I heard most FE games will get insanely difficult if you play it in high difficulty, though, I won't get DLCs anyway because I want to experience the game how it's pure.

Also,even though I want to get Xenoblade, the amount of games Nintendo is going to release this year is just...arrrgh. I can't get them all, my wallet is limited.

Well, except for Fire Emblem 13 (awakening), you can usually only play on one difficulty at first. I wouldn't consider any of them insanely difficult but you can just play the first few chapters on Normal and see if it's a suitable difficulty. I'd really recommend Hard mode. It's harder but not frustrating. It's an enjoyable challenge. Just beware of enemy reinforcements since they move the same turn they appear. (I believe that happens on both modes.)

You're right, the Megaton Hammer can be used in the first round, when you don't have the Master Sword. That's probably because you need a way to acquire your Master Sword back, as otherwise Ganon would be unbeatable. I mean, in all the other games, other than the MS and the holy arrows you cannot touch him with any weapons. Try hitting Ganon with the Normal Sword, Chain Ball ect.. in TP. It literally just phases through him. (Plus the in game statements about him and all that jazz, though his other weakness is....fishing I guess.)

Other than that, I would really love it if people would look at Ganondorf's other abilities rather than just his defense. The things he can do to his opponent is quite insane(I mean look at the list I posted, those are god like feats) and I would argue that even without his invulnerability(overrated) that he is a top tier. Similar case with Sonic.

Yea, most non-holy weapons usually can't hurt him. And he's definitely top tier even without holy invulnerability. Just not as top tier.

Ah yes, he did that in Alttp and the original games, right?

I was referring to 4 swords adventure, but he might have had intangibility in AlttP as well.

I said practically, not completely invincible. He can be hurt but he has to be knocked around quite a lot to do any real damage, he was crushed several times by an extremely heavy object and was barely fazed. In some games this would've killed him instantly or done a lot of damage, but not in this instance. I guess I should specify that the Kirby games and anime are of different but correlated canons. I know it sounds like I'm spouting nonsense at this point but hear me out. The Pokémon anime and games are clearly in two different but very similar worlds, and they have minor influences on each other (Pikachu's various promotions, event Pokémon, etc) same with the Kirby universe (one of the more recent designs for Castle Dedede, Galaxia being named and identified, etc). While Nintendo doesn't advertise the Kirby anime and games as correlated, they are objectively correlated about as much as the Pokémon games and anime.

Pokemon anime has mostly been used to give us an idea how some of these moves work in real time and to see what game mechanics are real vs just a product of it being an rpg (like how we agreed Pokemon can use more than 4pp).

But anime shouldn't override the games canon, like how you say Meta Knight's sword beam cuts through anything.

 

[Crystanium]

Well, what I'm talking about here is a sort of hierarchy for reliability. For instance:

Creators clarifying something > [original language lore > translated lore > in-game events]* > real-world science/reasoning.
*sometimes, in cases of when lore isn't represented well due to technical/gameplay/etc. reasons

The reason that real-world science and reasoning are at the bottom is because, as has been brought up before, video game worlds are often different from ours from a science standpoint. However, when nothing else says anything on the matter (for instance, exactly how much pressure Samus's suit can withstand), real-world science and reasoning can be used to determine it. This goes without saying, but anything higher in the hierarchy overrides anything different said below it (such as translation errors, misrepresented lore in gameplay, etc.).

Of course, there's probably going to be a special case or two for this, and there's probably some ways it could be improved; I'm open to feedback on this.

Well, I think I discovered something new. I used relativistic momentum before for Sonic. However, while massless objects, such as photons, can produce momentum, the way I did this probably wasn't exactly accurate. See, I assumed relativistic momentum was F = Δp / Δt (change of momentum over change of time). However, it's p = γm0v. p = γm0v obeys F = Δp / Δt, and this is what I misunderstood at the time. What I should have worked with was that, or I should have simply went with p = E/c, where E is energy and c is the speed of light. In order to find energy, I would need to know the frequency of a photon and multiply it by Planck's constant.

I had to go to Wolfram | Alpha in order to find the frequency of a photon, since no one else was helping on any other Web sites. I suppose this depends on the angle and gravitational acceleration, which we'll use 1 g. I'll go with 180°. I end up with 1.041 * 10^-8 Hz. Taking this and multiplying it by Planck's constant gives me 6.898 * 10^-42 kg m^2/s^2, which is understood as joules. That's very small amounts of energy there. To put it another way, it looks like this: 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000006898 J

Now that I have the energy, dividing it by c gives me 2.301 * 10^-50 kg m/s, or newtons. So as you can see, if Sonic uses light speed dash against his opponents, it shouldn't cause any harm, not any more than sunlight could harm you. I am working with photons because Sonic ends up running at light speed, and if he becomes massless, then even if I cannot explain how, I would presume he transforms into a beam of light. As I would see it, then, Sonic's light speed dash might serve no purpose in battle. Closing the gap would be irrelevant if he can run Mach 5, which would definitely close the gap.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I feel like this thread is like Game Theory, minus the childhood-ruining outcomes

 

[Munomario777]

Well, I think I discovered something new. I used relativistic momentum before for Sonic. However, while massless objects, such as photons, can produce momentum, the way I did this probably wasn't exactly accurate. See, I assumed relativistic momentum was F = Δp / Δt (change of momentum over change of time). However, it's p = γm0v. p = γm0v obeys F = Δp / Δt, and this is what I misunderstood at the time. What I should have worked with was that, or I should have simply went with p = E/c, where E is energy and c is the speed of light. In order to find energy, I would need to know the frequency of a photon and multiply it by Planck's constant.

I had to go to Wolfram | Alpha in order to find the frequency of a photon, since no one else was helping on any other Web sites. I suppose this depends on the angle and gravitational acceleration, which we'll use 1 g. I'll go with 180°. I end up with 1.041 * 10^-8 Hz. Taking this and multiplying it by Planck's constant gives me 6.898 * 10^-42 kg m^2/s^2, which is understood as joules. That's very small amounts of energy there. To put it another way, it looks like this: 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000006898 J

Now that I have the energy, dividing it by c gives me 2.301 * 10^-50 kg m/s, or newtons. So as you can see, if Sonic uses light speed dash against his opponents, it shouldn't cause any harm, not any more than sunlight could harm you. I am working with photons because Sonic ends up running at light speed, and if he becomes massless, then even if I cannot explain how, I would presume he transforms into a beam of light. As I would see it, then, Sonic's light speed dash might serve no purpose in battle. Closing the gap would be irrelevant if he can run Mach 5, which would definitely close the gap.

You're forgetting the fact that the Light Speed Attack (Homing Attack + Light Speed Dash) can actually damage enemies in the games (as well as the fact that Sonic is visibly the same spinball he usually is while performing the attack). Saying that Sonic turns into light because he moves at the speed thereof is like saying that Samus turns into a sound wave because she runs at the speed of sound.

 

[Crystanium]

You're forgetting the fact that the Light Speed Attack (Homing Attack + Light Speed Dash) can actually damage enemies in the games (as well as the fact that Sonic is visibly the same spinball he usually is while performing the attack). Saying that Sonic turns into light because he moves at the speed thereof is like saying that Samus turns into a sound wave because she runs at the speed of sound.

Then light behaves differently. You finally agreed with me that perhaps Sonic becomes massless, even though I was saying that all this time. We've been through the whole "If Sonic turns into photons because he moves at that speed, then Samus turns into phonons because she travels at supersonic speeds." The difference is that objects can travel at the speed of sound without having to have infinite energy or being massless. Massless particles must travel light speed. It doesn't need to be photons, either. Microwaves, radio waves, and any electromagnetic wave travels at light speed.

Yes, Sonic can harm people with his attacks when traveling light speed, which would need to be explained. A possible explanation is that Sonic travels at light speed, but returns to his original form as he's about to hit his opponents. Having mass would allow him to use his speed and smash into objects. That isn't to say he would be traveling near light speed upon impact, however. It just means he's using light speed dash to attack multiple opponents at a faster rate while using his homing attack.

 

[Munomario777]

Then light behaves differently. You finally agreed with me that perhaps Sonic becomes massless, even though I was saying that all this time. We've been through the whole "If Sonic turns into photons because he moves at that speed, then Samus turns into phonons because she travels at supersonic speeds." The difference is that objects can travel at the speed of sound without having to have infinite energy or being massless. Massless particles must travel light speed. It doesn't need to be photons, either. Microwaves, radio waves, and any electromagnetic wave travels at light speed.

I listed becoming massless as a possibility, but I'm more on the side of Sonic just being able to move at light speed in his regular, non-massless form (after all, the game never mentions anything about him becoming massless, and again, we can see him in his normal, non-massless state in the time that he's travelling from the place where he started to the opponent). I believe the only reason you listed for light speed travel not being possible for Sonic not being possible unless he's massless is air being too slow to get out of the way, so it would explode, but Sonic has been shown to be able to manipulate air (he can make tornadoes, shoot air blades as projectiles, and even form an aura of air to damage enemies via the Sonic Boost), so it wouldn't be a stretch at all to think that Sonic could get the air around him out of the way (especially since the Sonic Boost is extremely similar to this sort of thing, since both manipulate air into a certain shape around Sonic). Also, I don't see how becoming massless would help with that sort of thing if Sonic is still a solid object for the air to collide with (and no, Sonic doesn't become non-solid, since he can still ram into walls and the like during the Light Speed Dash/Attack).

Yes, Sonic can harm people with his attacks when traveling light speed, which would need to be explained. A possible explanation is that Sonic travels at light speed, but returns to his original form as he's about to hit his opponents. Having mass would allow him to use his speed and smash into objects. That isn't to say he would be traveling near light speed upon impact, however. It just means he's using light speed dash to attack multiple opponents at a faster rate while using his homing attack.

Aside from the points I made above, there's also the fact that we don't see Sonic slow down between the travel time and striking the opponent (besides the sudden stop when he does hit the opponent).

 

[Crystanium]

I listed becoming massless as a possibility, but I'm more on the side of Sonic just being able to move at light speed in his regular, non-massless form (after all, the game never mentions anything about him becoming massless, and again, we can see him in his normal, non-massless state in the time that he's travelling from the place where he started to the opponent). I believe the only reason you listed for light speed travel not being possible for Sonic not being possible unless he's massless is air being too slow to get out of the way, so it would explode, but Sonic has been shown to be able to manipulate air (he can make tornadoes, shoot air blades as projectiles, and even form an aura of air to damage enemies via the Sonic Boost), so it wouldn't be a stretch at all to think that Sonic could get the air around him out of the way (especially since the Sonic Boost is extremely similar to this sort of thing, since both manipulate air into a certain shape around Sonic). Also, I don't see how becoming massless would help with that sort of thing if Sonic is still a solid object for the air to collide with (and no, Sonic doesn't become non-solid, since he can still ram into walls and the like during the Light Speed Dash/Attack).

Aside from the points I made above, there's also the fact that we don't see Sonic slow down between the travel time and striking the opponent (besides the sudden stop when he does hit the opponent).

The Flash can create tornadoes as well, but that's not why he doesn't blow things up. It's the Speed Force. However, I don't buy this explanation because Sonic creates sonic booms when he dashes.

 

[Munomario777]

The Flash can create tornadoes as well, but that's not why he doesn't blow things up. It's the Speed Force. However, I don't buy this explanation because Sonic creates sonic booms when he dashes.

The tornadoes are a form of wind manipulation, which could also explain the light speed travel. As for the sonic booms, regular sonic booms would destroy windows, etc., would they not? Sonic's are far less destructive, which is another piece of evidence for Sonic manipulating the air to be less destructive (basically the light speed explanation, but on a smaller scale). Let me put it this way:

There are two possibilities for how Sonic can travel at light speed (besides video game physics just being that way): becoming massless and wind manipulation. Has Sonic become massless? No. Has Sonic manipulated wind? Yes (Blue Tornado, Sonic Wind, Sonic Boost, non-damaging sonic booms, etc.). Thus, it's much safer to say that Sonic has a variant of his wind manipulation technique that allows him to travel at such speeds with exploding the air around him than to say that he inexplicably becomes massless.

 

[Nerdicon]

I'm not an expert on Pokemon by any means (nor was I trying to prove anything about it), so I'll let someone else discuss that. However, I DO know another example of this in another franchise, and I think it can help illustrate my point.

Enter Sonic Boom. This three-pronged spinoff of the Sonic series consists of two games, a TV series, and merchandise. While this universe has many similarities to the main series (the characters, Rings, speed pads, etc.), it has also been stated to be in a different universe from the main series. This means a different Sonic, Tails, Eggman, etc. This is comparable to the Kirby situation. Right Back At Ya has Kirby characters, Copy Abilities, etc., but has quite a few differences and takes place in a different universe. Again, different Kirby, different Dedede, Meta Knight, etc.

The difference is that Sonic Boom (as of now) has not been referenced in any sonic game from the main series. To check my points I did some research on canon vs. continuity, so after that I can explain my points with more reason. If we're considering the games as the definitive canon, that's fine. But if the Pokemon franchise can take notes from its anime that is taking elements from a source in the Pokémon continuity. The thing is though that the canons of the Pokémon games and anime are correlated in their continuity. I feel if this is the case, the separate canon should be taken into consideration. I feel Sonic Boom is a poor example in this situation as it hasn't been around for long enough for there to be any correlations from it to the main series Sonic canon so I'll take a look at the Archie Comics. While the comics are based around Sonic and obviously feature characters and elements from the main Sonic series, the same can't be said the other way around. The main series Sonic games don't even acknowledge the comic's existence, let alone take exclusive elements from it. However the Kirby anime has shared a few elements (though relatively minor) that make me feel it is relevant enough to have a place in this discussion. Such as one of the designs for King Dedede's castle and it's contents, the design of the Halberd in Squeak Squad, some of Dedede's lines in Kirby's Epic Yarn, and some major cameos in Kirby Mass Attack, etc. Though in Mass Attack they were in the mini games which could be considered entirely different canons for the reasons I explained above.

TL;DR version: Although the Kirby anime and games are not the same canon they are correlated in their continuity which makes me feel that both canons have a place in this discussion

 

[Munomario777]

The difference is that Sonic Boom (as of now) has not been referenced in any sonic game from the main series. To check my points I did some research on canon vs. continuity, so after that I can explain my points with more reason. If we're considering the games as the definitive canon, that's fine. But if the Pokemon franchise can take notes from its anime that is taking elements from a source in the Pokémon continuity. The thing is though that the canons of the Pokémon games and anime are correlated in their continuity. I feel if this is the case, the separate canon should be taken into consideration. I feel Sonic Boom is a poor example in this situation as it hasn't been around for long enough for there to be any correlations from it to the main series Sonic canon so I'll take a look at the Archie Comics. While the comics are based around Sonic and obviously feature characters and elements from the main Sonic series, the same can't be said the other way around. The main series Sonic games don't even acknowledge the comic's existence, let alone take exclusive elements from it. However the Kirby anime has shared a few elements (though relatively minor) that make me feel it is relevant enough to have a place in this discussion. Such as one of the designs for King Dedede's castle and it's contents, the design of the Halberd in Squeak Squad, some of Dedede's lines in Kirby's Epic Yarn, and some major cameos in Kirby Mass Attack, etc. Though in Mass Attack they were in the mini games which could be considered entirely different canons for the reasons I explained above.

TL;DR version: Although the Kirby anime and games are not the same canon they are correlated in their continuity which makes me feel that both canons have a place in this discussion

The reason that Boom hasn't been referenced is that there isn't a game to reference it in the first place (as in, it's the latest game in the series). By the way, I Googled "canon vs continuity" and found a good point someone made on the matter:

For another example, Star Wars has varying degrees of canonicity. Lucas has come out and said outright that whatever is in the films is the highest level of canon. Every other work related to the franchise has to treat the films as Word of God.

This is how I see the Kirby franchise; Kirby games > Kirby anime.
As for Pokemon, someone made a good point a while back that the anime is only used for clarification (i.e. "how does move this work physically, outside of a turn-based, stat-based battle?"), not for making new points altogether (i.e. "Kirby is practically indestructible").
As for Sonic the Comic, I found something that is referenced in the games, but originated in the comics/tv shows/etc.: chili dogs. Sonic's fondness for these first originated in other media, and then "bled" over into the games, starting with Sonic Advance 3. So yes, other media does have some impact on the Sonic games in a similar fashion to the Kirby situation. EDIT: Plus, Shadow's Inhibitor Rings' function originated in Sonic X, and reappeared in Sonic 2006. /EDIT
As for canon vs continuity (and the TL;DR, for that matter), there can't really be a continuity connecting two canons. Continuity resides inside of a canon, and every canon has a continuity (except for certain cases). This quote from the same source I mentioned earlier describes this pretty well:

Continuity is the degree to which any given episode/installment affects the overall status quo of the franchise. Continuity resides within canon, but canon determines what degree of continuity, if any, exists. A show with Negative Continuity still has a canon — canon states that what happens in one episode shall not affect any other episode, unless it's a Callback for Rule of Funny or we need to shake up the formula for a season finale or something.


To phrase it a different way, Canon is the definitive statement of how a franchise works. Continuity is the degree to which events in one episode affect subsequent episodes. They're very different concepts.

So a canon is like a universe (which cannot be travelled into/out of), and a continuity is like a timeline of events within that universe.

 

[Nerdicon]

"As a countable noun ("a continuity"), "continuity" is often used to refer to a set of stories that are mutually Canon, a sort of self-contained possible world. (Compare and contrast with The Verse, where not everything has to be canon.) For example, a series would typically have its own continuity, and sometimes two series by the same author are in the same continuity, so that what has happened in one is canon in the other; but if they aren't, it's not. In other words, a continuity is that inside which there needs to be continuity, and outside of which there doesn't. It follows from this that in some cases it's not possible to tell whether the word is being used like a count noun or not, but then it makes no difference for meaning anyway"

This is something I found on TV Tropes and was what I was referring to when mentioning continuity. Is "mutually canon" overselling the correlation of the media forms of Kirby and Pokémon? Yes, very much so. As a matter of fact there may be another term that better covers the topic at hand.

"Expanded Universe refers to everything that is not the primary medium. All that other stuff.
This can create a schism in fans. Some believe the entire Expanded Universe is canon. Others reject it all. Others pick and choose based on closeness to the writers of the primary medium. Expanded Universe material is usually written so that it can be fit in to the canon without having to alter the canon itself. However, later developments in the actual series can make it definitively out of continuity"

That sounds a lot more like our predicament now doesn't it?
So let's say the Pokémon and Kirby games are the primary mediums and the anime is the expanded universe. I feel that for the best discussion that we should choose based on the closeness to the primary medium. So let's do some analysis

So the Pokémon and Kirby expanded universes both use slightly modified versions of characters from the primary medium, slightly modified settings, a moderately modified plot, etc. The trend here is the expanded universe is as it sounds, it expands on the current universe but doesn't really add to the primary universe. Now here is where the differences start to pop up. The Pokémon media is all advertised as very closely correlated the video games, TCG, anime, they're all one big package to the naked eye but when examined, how many elements are actually taken from the expanded universe and put into the games? Spoiler alert: not many.

Off the top of my head I can think of the promotional Pokémon, special Pikachu, and maybe a cameo of a character or a small nod to the anime (Red's Pikachu in HGSS). Now that's 2 things and some cameos for the Pokémon side, now over to Kirby. Kirby's "poyo" language from the anime has been featured in several games, it marked the debut of the Spear Waddle Dees as well as the water ability. There are also a few smaller nods like the anime designs of D3's castle and the Halberd as well as the changing design of Galaxia (which was named in the anime). Now that's three specific things and a couple of small nods and cameos along the way. I feel that's enough for now. When you acknowledged the Sonic correlations that was one element for each part of the expanded universe, nothing more nothing less. I feel that the anime of both Pokémon and Kirby are close enough to be considered while the Sonic expanded universe is a little too scattered to be considered

Am I straw grasping? Maybe.
Is my incredible Kirby bias showing through? Probably.
Am I going through all of this to keep the discussion hot? Most definitely.

 

[Crystanium]

The tornadoes are a form of wind manipulation, which could also explain the light speed travel. As for the sonic booms, regular sonic booms would destroy windows, etc., would they not? Sonic's are far less destructive, which is another piece of evidence for Sonic manipulating the air to be less destructive (basically the light speed explanation, but on a smaller scale). Let me put it this way:

There are two possibilities for how Sonic can travel at light speed (besides video game physics just being that way): becoming massless and wind manipulation. Has Sonic become massless? No. Has Sonic manipulated wind? Yes (Blue Tornado, Sonic Wind, Sonic Boost, non-damaging sonic booms, etc.). Thus, it's much safer to say that Sonic has a variant of his wind manipulation technique that allows him to travel at such speeds with exploding the air around him than to say that he inexplicably becomes massless.

A sonic boom is not the same as a shock wave. It might shatter glass, but I suppose it depends on what type of glass and the frequency, since to shatter glass, you typically need to have the right frequency. Also, because of Sonic's size, the sonic boom and shock wave would be small because Sonic's size isn't hitting as many air molecules like a jet would. We see a sonic boom or something when Sonic runs, which I would assume is the blue streak he leaves behind at. We see this when Samus uses the speed booster as well, as seen in Metroid: Other M.

An interesting thing to note is that during light speed dash, at least in Sonic Adventures 2, the sonic boom doesn't appear. Light itself doesn't create sonic booms. Sonic Wind is some sort of attack Sonic causes without using his speed. However, unless you can prove that Sonic can manipulate the air, there isn't much you can support right now. Scientific knowledge would tell us that light must be massless or a particle with mass must have infinite energy.

Sonic is associated with wind because he's swift and free to go wherever he pleases. It doesn't mean he can control wind. I'm not sure what Sonic Wind is all about, nor do I know how wind could cause any damage (aside from tornadoes and similar, natural occurrences). Otherwise, if Sonic is not becoming massless, well, he's not causing massive destruction when he smashes into his opponents.

 

[Munomario777]

A sonic boom is not the same as a shock wave. It might shatter glass, but I suppose it depends on what type of glass and the frequency, since to shatter glass, you typically need to have the right frequency. Also, because of Sonic's size, the sonic boom and shock wave would be small because Sonic's size isn't hitting as many air molecules like a jet would. We see a sonic boom or something when Sonic runs, which I would assume is the blue streak he leaves behind at. We see this when Samus uses the speed booster as well, as seen in Metroid: Other M.

^ This one sure shattered windows. As for sonic boom vs. shock wave:

A sonic boom is the sound associated with the shock waves created by an object traveling through the air faster than the speed of sound.

Basically a lightning vs. thunder relationship. Sonic might be smaller, but he also runs closer to the ground (and thus many windows in cities) than a jet would in flight. The sonic boom when he runs isn't the blue streak; it's the explosion-like ripple effect we see when he starts using the Sonic Boost in most games where it's present.

An interesting thing to note is that during light speed dash, at least in Sonic Adventures 2, the sonic boom doesn't appear. Light itself doesn't create sonic booms. Sonic Wind is some sort of attack Sonic causes without using his speed. However, unless you can prove that Sonic can manipulate the air, there isn't much you can support right now. Scientific knowledge would tell us that light must be massless or a particle with mass must have infinite energy.

The reason that the sonic boom doesn't appear is because (aside from the visual effect just not being implemented at the time, due to hardware limitations or something), again, Sonic has wind manipulating abilities. Sonic Wind is a manipulation of the air to create perfectly shaped blades of pure wind. The Sonic Boost is where Sonic manipulates the air to create an aura around him in order to damage enemies. Sonic DOES have a source of infinite energy here. Aside from the fact that the upgrades in the Adventure games could contain this power for moving at light speed, Sonic also has the Chaos Emeralds, which contain "ultimate power" when all seven are combined. If that's not enough, there's also the Master Emerald, which contains "infinite power" and is even more powerful than the Chaos Emeralds. If THAT's not enough, they can be combined. Either way, lore > [...] > real world science.
[/quote]Sonic is associated with wind because he's swift and free to go wherever he pleases. It doesn't mean he can control wind. I'm not sure what Sonic Wind is all about, nor do I know how wind could cause any damage (aside from tornadoes and similar, natural occurrences). Otherwise, if Sonic is not becoming massless, well, he's not causing massive destruction when he smashes into his opponents.[/quote]
Yes, that is one reason why he's associated with wind, but he can also manipulate it in certain ways (see above). The Sonic Wind (or Somersault Kick as it's known in Sonic Lost World for the 3DS) is an example of his air manipulation abilities (as is the Insta-Shield from Sonic 3, by the way). Sonic's aerokinesis might also explain his midair velocity changes (such as the Air Boost and the Homing Attack) that he does in many of his games. Why would Sonic not damage opponents when he smashes into them if he's not becoming massless, exactly? The more mass, the more damage. Just because Sonic is negating any damage due to shock waves doesn't mean that the blunt collision force into his opponents wouldn't cause any damage.

Snippity-snip snip

The difference between the Star Wars EU and the Kirby anime is that Lucas has gone out and clarified that "yes, there is some correlation here", while no such thing has happened with the Kirby anime. Thus, due to this along with the differences between them, we should just assume that they're different continuities. Anyway, this whole discussion is rather pointless if you can't provide some examples from the anime that make Kirby any more/less formidable as a fighter.

 

[Nerdicon]

The difference between the Star Wars EU and the Kirby anime is that Lucas has gone out and clarified that "yes, there is some correlation here", while no such thing has happened with the Kirby anime. Thus, due to this along with the differences between them, we should just assume that they're different continuities. Anyway, this whole discussion is rather pointless if you can't provide some examples from the anime that make Kirby any more/less formidable as a fighter.

Did you read the entire post? "Some believe the entire Expanded Universe is canon. Others reject it all. Others pick and choose based on closeness to the writers of the primary medium." This sentence summarizes my biggest point, that in the case an expanded universe is beneficial to the character that we should consider it based on how the expanded universe gives to the primary medium. And if we're talking beneficiary elements from the anime, I could be here all day mentioning those. Vastly increased durability (in episode 2 Kirby was repeatedly crushed by a large stone monster who is claimed to be made of a "super high density material" over and over again without being fazed), Mirror having many more offensive uses (In episode 54 Mirror cut takes the form of a large energy sword while the mirror body actually allows Kirby to make clones of himself that can fight just as he does), Baton Kirby in episode 97 has telekinetic abilities using the baton (he shoots a beam at them and then gains the ability to twirl them around or make them explode by throwing the baton), and so much more. It also makes Meta Knight in my opinion on par with Kirby.

 

[Munomario777]

Did you read the entire post?

Yes. I just summarized my thoughts with a relatively short post.

"Some believe the entire Expanded Universe is canon. Others reject it all. Others pick and choose based on closeness to the writers of the primary medium." This sentence summarizes my biggest point, that in the case an expanded universe is beneficial to the character that we should consider it based on how the expanded universe gives to the primary medium.

From the same site, this quote summarizes my biggest point:

For another example, Star Wars has varying degrees of canonicity. Lucas has come out and said outright that whatever is in the films is the highest level of canon. Every other work related to the franchise has to treat the films as Word of God.

Kirby games are like the films, and the anime is like the other works. It's a hierarchy, basically. If there is a contradiction, the higher up entity in the hierarchy takes precedence. For example, Kirby games > Kirby anime. I'll get back to that contradictory thing in a second.

And if we're talking beneficiary elements from the anime, I could be here all day mentioning those. Vastly increased durability (in episode 2 Kirby was repeatedly crushed by a large stone monster who is claimed to be made of a "super high density material" over and over again without being fazed), Mirror having many more offensive uses (In episode 54 Mirror cut takes the form of a large energy sword while the mirror body actually allows Kirby to make clones of himself that can fight just as he does), Baton Kirby in episode 97 has telekinetic abilities using the baton (he shoots a beam at them and then gains the ability to twirl them around or make them explode by throwing the baton), and so much more. It also makes Meta Knight in my opinion on par with Kirby.

And here are those contradictions I was talking about. In Kirby games, Kirby dies upon being crushed. In the anime, he survives (but required ally assistance to be un-flattened again anyway, so I don't see what kind of impact that would really make here). There is a contradiction here; thus, the higher source in the hierarchy takes precedence. There's no direct contradiction in the case of the two Copy Abilities you mentioned, so the anime can be cited here.

 

[Crystanium]

^ This one sure shattered windows.

Indeed, and the glass appeared to surround the entire building for the most part, likely causing overpressure. According to this site, "The strength of the sonic boom is affected by various factors including the size and weight of the aircraft, speed, altitude, angle of attack, and atmospheric effects. Maneuvers also affect the strength of a boom. Any change in the aircraft's velocity can either focus or diffuse the boom. This includes acceleration, deceleration, changing flight path angle (FPA), or heading."

The link you provided demonstrates an acceleration as the first jet approaches the buidling. "Acceleration will focus the boom, deceleration will weaken it." (ibid) Considering Sonic's size, the sonic boom should be negligible since there isn't as much displacement in the air.

Basically a lightning vs. thunder relationship.

Kind of. Thunder is a shock wave caused by the expansion of the air.

Sonic might be smaller, but he also runs closer to the ground (and thus many windows in cities) than a jet would in flight.

I'm not sure. If someone fired a bullet from a rifle near glass, the glass wouldn't shatter from the shock wave. Once again, Sonic is not a large person.

The sonic boom when he runs isn't the blue streak; it's the explosion-like ripple effect we see when he starts using the Sonic Boost in most games where it's present.

In the same way we see that in Super Metroid.

The reason that the sonic boom doesn't appear is because (aside from the visual effect just not being implemented at the time, due to hardware limitations or something), again, Sonic has wind manipulating abilities.

The F/A-18's loudest sonic boom was 1.4 pounds per square foot, which is approximately 0.33 times the sound pressure of a rifle at 1 meter, according to Wolfram | Alpha. I doubt Sonic's sonic boom is going to do anything around him. This dismisses Sonic's need to manipulate the air around him.

Sonic Wind is a manipulation of the air to create perfectly shaped blades of pure wind. The Sonic Boost is where Sonic manipulates the air to create an aura around him in order to damage enemies.

In order to cause destruction using wind, Sonic would need to produce a tornado. The Beaufort scale gives a scale of what wind will do on land and the effects. The scale goes from 0 to 12. 9 is considered a strong gale. "Some branches break off trees, and some small trees blow over. Construction/temporary signs and barricades blow over." 10 causes trees to be broken off or uprooted. 12 is considered a hurricane force. So what Sonic must be doing is using some sort of ability. Magic, perhaps? No demonstration of the wind to prevent sonic booms has been demonstrated.

Sonic DOES have a source of infinite energy here. Aside from the fact that the upgrades in the Adventure games could contain this power for moving at light speed, Sonic also has the Chaos Emeralds, which contain "ultimate power" when all seven are combined.

"Ultimate" is not synonymous with "infinite". "Metroid" is a Chozo word, which means "ultimate warrior".

If that's not enough, there's also the Master Emerald, which contains "infinite power" and is even more powerful than the Chaos Emeralds. If THAT's not enough, they can be combined. Either way, lore > [...] > real world science.

I'll need a citation that the Chaos Emeralds contain "infinite power". Even if such were the case, Sonic's light speed dash/attack would mean light doesn't function the same way in the Sonicverse, making our understanding of light in that universe unrelated.

Yes, that is one reason why he's associated with wind, but he can also manipulate it in certain ways (see above). The Sonic Wind (or Somersault Kick as it's known in Sonic Lost World for the 3DS) is an example of his air manipulation abilities (as is the Insta-Shield from Sonic 3, by the way). Sonic's aerokinesis might also explain his midair velocity changes (such as the Air Boost and the Homing Attack) that he does in many of his games. Why would Sonic not damage opponents when he smashes into them if he's not becoming massless, exactly? The more mass, the more damage. Just because Sonic is negating any damage due to shock waves doesn't mean that the blunt collision force into his opponents wouldn't cause any damage.

Kicking causes a displacement in the air. It would appear to me that Sonic Wind is not actually manipulating air (aside from displacement). I'd say that because it says nothing about manipulating air to cause wind or that Sonic is controlling the wind like the description for Light Speed Dash tells us Sonic travels at light speed, it's unknown.

 

[Nerdicon]

And here are those contradictions I was talking about. In Kirby games, Kirby dies upon being crushed. In the anime, he survives (but required ally assistance to be un-flattened again anyway, so I don't see what kind of impact that would really make here). There is a contradiction here; thus, the higher source in the hierarchy takes precedence. There's no direct contradiction in the case of the two Copy Abilities you mentioned, so the anime can be cited here.

That's all I was fighting for my dear sir! Also in Kirby: Triple Deluxe plenty of things can crush Kirby and he'll survive (as in it's not an instant kill). The thing about Kirby is that only so many of his abilities are really useful
Archer: Invincibility when crouching, powerful long range attacks
Bell: Invincible while guarding, does damage while guarding
Ice: Invincibility while guarding long and close range attacks
Baton: Telekinesis and blowing the controlled up if he hits them with the yellow beam
Ghost: Controls lesser beings and can kill them at will afterward
Stone: Invincible while stone, can grow to gigantic size and move around
Mirror; Create clones, invincible guard, good melee, guard reflects projectiles
Crash: Extremely powerful burst of energy that spreads out in all directions. Seemingly inescapable
Hypernova: One of Kirby's strongest abilities, inhaling anyone under 4'8" inches and swallowing them for an instant kill. He can also inhale objects and energy and spit it back out
Tornado: Travel around in an invincible tornado for a short time or create a massive tornado. Influenced by the elements around him
Leaf: Invincible guard, nothing else to write home about.
Snowflake: Covers a huge area that freezes anything it touches

 

[Munomario777]

Indeed, and the glass appeared to surround the entire building for the most part, likely causing overpressure. According to this site, "The strength of the sonic boom is affected by various factors including the size and weight of the aircraft, speed, altitude, angle of attack, and atmospheric effects. Maneuvers also affect the strength of a boom. Any change in the aircraft's velocity can either focus or diffuse the boom. This includes acceleration, deceleration, changing flight path angle (FPA), or heading."

The link you provided demonstrates an acceleration as the first jet approaches the buidling. "Acceleration will focus the boom, deceleration will weaken it." (ibid) Considering Sonic's size, the sonic boom should be negligible since there isn't as much displacement in the air.

Well, the jet doesn't seem to be accelerating in velocity when the sonic boom happens. The acceleration strengthening the sonic boom does make sense in Sonic's case though, since the shock wave only happens at the beginning of the Sonic Boost.

Kind of. Thunder is a shock wave caused by the expansion of the air.

Yeah. I meant more in the sense that you hear thunder because of lightning, and you hear the shock wave because of the sonic boom.

I'm not sure. If someone fired a bullet from a rifle near glass, the glass wouldn't shatter from the shock wave. Once again, Sonic is not a large person.

True. Sonic is quite a bit bigger than a bullet, though, so there would probably be some difference.

In the same way we see that in Super Metroid.

Yes. You said the blue streak initially, so I pointed out that it was the shock wave effect instead.

The F/A-18's loudest sonic boom was 1.4 pounds per square foot, which is approximately 0.33 times the sound pressure of a rifle at 1 meter, according to Wolfram | Alpha. I doubt Sonic's sonic boom is going to do anything around him. This dismisses Sonic's need to manipulate the air around him.

Good; one less thing we need to debate about.

In order to cause destruction using wind, Sonic would need to produce a tornado. The Beaufort scale gives a scale of what wind will do on land and the effects. The scale goes from 0 to 12. 9 is considered a strong gale. "Some branches break off trees, and some small trees blow over. Construction/temporary signs and barricades blow over." 10 causes trees to be broken off or uprooted. 12 is considered a hurricane force. So what Sonic must be doing is using some sort of ability. Magic, perhaps? No demonstration of the wind to prevent sonic booms has been demonstrated.

If Sonic can fashion blades of wind, as well as redirect wind around himself, it's safe to say that he could keep the air from damaging things. Didn't you say that air manipulation was unnecessary anyway, in the above paragraph?

"Ultimate" is not synonymous with "infinite". "Metroid" is a Chozo word, which means "ultimate warrior".

"Ultimate: the best achievable or imaginable of its kind." Infinite power is achievable in Sonic's world (thanks to the Master Emerald), and you can't really get much better than infinity.

I'll need a citation that the Chaos Emeralds contain "infinite power". Even if such were the case, Sonic's light speed dash/attack would mean light doesn't function the same way in the Sonicverse, making our understanding of light in that universe unrelated.

Actually, it's the Master Emerald that is directly stated to contain "infinite power" (which, by extension, grants the Chaos Emeralds that same infinite power, for reasons mentioned above). Citations can be found by clicking the link in the Master Emerald's name in one of my above posts. Why wouldn't the Light Speed Dash function the same way exactly?

Kicking causes a displacement in the air. It would appear to me that Sonic Wind is not actually manipulating air (aside from displacement). I'd say that because it says nothing about manipulating air to cause wind or that Sonic is controlling the wind like the description for Light Speed Dash tells us Sonic travels at light speed, it's unknown.

Well, displacing air and shaping it into a blade are two different things. I could kick right now, but it wouldn't launch a sword made of pure air at my enemies. As for whether or not it's actually air that he's manipulating, the move looks similar to three of his other wind-based attacks: the Sonic Wind from Sonic Adventure 2 (summons a cyclone to damage opponents), the Sonic Boost from multiple games (creates an aura of air to damage opponents), and the Blue Tornado from Sonic Heroes (summons a tornado to damage enemies). Also, again, you said that it didn't matter whether or not he could manipulate the air, so I still don't see why we're discussing this.

That's all I was fighting for my dear sir! Also in Kirby: Triple Deluxe plenty of things can crush Kirby and he'll survive (as in it's not an instant kill). The thing about Kirby is that only so many of his abilities are really useful
Archer: Invincibility when crouching, powerful long range attacks
Bell: Invincible while guarding, does damage while guarding
Ice: Invincibility while guarding long and close range attacks
Baton: Telekinesis and blowing the controlled up if he hits them with the yellow beam
Ghost: Controls lesser beings and can kill them at will afterward
Stone: Invincible while stone, can grow to gigantic size and move around
Mirror; Create clones, invincible guard, good melee, guard reflects projectiles
Crash: Extremely powerful burst of energy that spreads out in all directions. Seemingly inescapable
Hypernova: One of Kirby's strongest abilities, inhaling anyone under 4'8" inches and swallowing them for an instant kill. He can also inhale objects and energy and spit it back out
Tornado: Travel around in an invincible tornado for a short time or create a massive tornado. Influenced by the elements around him
Leaf: Invincible guard, nothing else to write home about.
Snowflake: Covers a huge area that freezes anything it touches

Oh, I thought you were using the anime to say that the crushing thing wouldn't kill Kirby. As for Triple Deluxe, what sort of thing does Kirby get crushed by (preferably with sources)? I'm assuming it will take away a portion of his health if it's not insta-kill. And yeah, Kirby does have quite a wide range of abilities. I have a couple of questions, though. First, does Kirby have an ability that lets him block attacks and attack himself at the same time? Second, Hypernova can't inhale full bosses (as opposed to mid-bosses), correct? Because quite a few of the characters in Smash were bosses at some point. Besides the obvious villains (Bowser etc.), some of the protagonists were fought by the player in the story mode of a game at some point. For instance, Mario was the villain in Donkey Kong Jr., Sonic was fought at one point in Blaze's story in Sonic Rush, Donkey Kong was fought in the original arcade release as well as some other games, Palutena was fought at one point in Uprising, the Pokemon could be owned by a rival Trainer in Pokemon (and thus fought by the player), etc.

 

[Nerdicon]

Oh, I thought you were using the anime to say that the crushing thing wouldn't kill Kirby. As for Triple Deluxe, what sort of thing does Kirby get crushed by (preferably with sources)?

Hmmm, the only example I could find are enemies such as Blocky and the hammers on the factory stage in Kirby Fighters which both do a respectable amount of damage and flatten Kirby like a pancake (source)

I have a couple of questions, though. First, does Kirby have an ability that lets him block attacks and attack himself at the same time?

Bell does exactly that, the guard is also invincible. Not to mention that it seems the guard does more damage the harder you hit it, like a counter (source)

Second, Hypernova can't inhale full bosses (as opposed to mid-bosses), correct? Because quite a few of the characters in Smash were bosses at some point. Besides the obvious villains (Bowser etc.), some of the protagonists were fought by the player in the story mode of a game at some point. For instance, Mario was the villain in Donkey Kong Jr., Sonic was fought at one point in Blaze's story in Sonic Rush, Donkey Kong was fought in the original arcade release as well as some other games, Palutena was fought at one point in Uprising, the Pokemon could be owned by a rival Trainer in Pokemon (and thus fought by the player), etc.

Actually I use this point as a testament to Hypernova's extreme broken-ness. Near the end of the last level of Royal Road, Kirby goes on a bit of a Hypernova rampage completely annihilating a bunch of minibosses with no effort. But at the end he confronts Flowery Woods who he swallows with a little struggle mostly due to Flowery Woods being rooted in the ground (source). It should be noted that as larger objects approach Hypernova, they shrink considerably to fit in Kirby's mouth.

 

[Munomario777]

Hmmm, the only example I could find are enemies such as Blocky and the hammers on the factory stage in Kirby Fighters which both do a respectable amount of damage and flatten Kirby like a pancake (source)

Hmm, interesting. It is an extra mode, though, so I think we should try to find something in the main game before we draw any conclusions, just to be safe.

Bell does exactly that, the guard is also invincible. Not to mention that it seems the guard does more damage the harder you hit it, like a counter (source)

Ah, I see. I was thinking more along the lines of Kirby actually initiating the attack (as opposed to the counter nature of the Bell, which relies on the opponent's attack to do damage).

Actually I use this point as a testament to Hypernova's extreme broken-ness. Near the end of the last level of Royal Road, Kirby goes on a bit of a Hypernova rampage completely annihilating a bunch of minibosses with no effort. But at the end he confronts Flowery Woods who he swallows with a little struggle mostly due to Flowery Woods being rooted in the ground (source). It should be noted that as larger objects approach Hypernova, they shrink considerably to fit in Kirby's mouth.

Interesting. So it can inhale certain full bosses, not just mid-bosses. Is there anything that the Hypernova isn't able to inhale in the games (besides the solid level structure and the like), to give us an idea of what Kirby can and cannot do?

 

[Endei]

I'm just going to leave this here. There's really no arguing with that.