Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Banjodorf]

bro really megaman fought needle man and he didnt die instantly. so sonic is no different.

Well damn, you've got me there. Well done.

 

[Superyoshiom]

So we got Palkia. It looks pretty cool. Does this deconfirm spear pillar as a past stage?

 

[Comeback Kid]

Why is Rosalina considered powerful? The whole remaking the universe trick?

That was a one shot deal and doesn't apply in a fight. She really doesn't seem powerful beyond leading an army which the same can be said for King Koopa, Dedede and others.

 

[Chiroz]

Huh, I didn't cut DK on purpose, it was supposed to only be Diddy cut from the DK franchise. DK and K. Rool should have been on the final character count.

I think I will be making a new thread in order to keep everything more organized, but I don't know how the mods would look upon that.

Well, since DK and K. Rool are missing (and since mostly the debate has been back and forth on different matches which are hard to keep track of) I have decided to do this tournament in another style (in order to keep it more organized).

The way the tournament is going to go is we will discuss one character per day and all of his given matchups.

So, for example, tomorrow will be Mario's day.

It will be a day to discuss every single matchup involving Mario (I.E.: Mario vs DK, Mario vs Ridley). This way it will be much easier for me to keep things organized and to be able to tell how the character did overall at the end of the day. Every day I will make an "end of the day" summary which will encompass every single fight that character would have and how it would play out. The events that happen in the fight will be the ones from the person who makes the most compelling argument for his character in a given matchup (To list some examples, people saying that Palutena could grow 100x bigger and try to shine Sonic but then someone counter arguments that Palutena could never actually catch Sonic with his speed and Sonic would probably be able to hide and transform into Super Sonic and have enough strength to take her down then that would be the "end of the day summary" for that match).

Every day I will add the wins and losses to each character and we will continue with the next character on the list.

I will post the roster again so that people do not have to look back at the first posts. I will add DK and K. Rool who were somehow deleted from the roster.


Mario
Bowser
Rosalina
DK
K. Rool
Link
Zelda
Ganondorf
Samus
Pit
Palutena
Kirby
Meta Knight
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Captain Falcon
Mewtwo
Red
Marth
Ike
Ness
Mr. Game and Watch
Sonic
Megaman
Pac Man
Ridley




Starting from now is Mario day. Discuss any and all matchups involving Mario vs *insert name here*. Try to keep it as organized as possible.

(Also, just to remind people that things like a Power Star must be "caught" and are used immediately and have a "limited duration" just like in the game. Opponents won't know what a Power Star is (unless they are also from the Mario universe) the first time Mario uses it, but they will probably catch on pretty quickly, assuming they last enough time in the fight, and they might be able to steal Power Stars from Mario if he tries getting new ones.

(Same can be said for all the power up/items from other franchises, they all hold true to their cannon universe).

Also it is good to remember that personality matters. While a character like Sonic could avoid Mario while he has his Power Star, Sonic is a very cocky fellow, and he would probably charge Mario head on without giving thought or analyzing Mario's newly acquired power though, while other characters like Marth might be more inclined to actually figuring out his opponents new ability before committing to an attack. (Although arguments can also be made that Sonic is so fast he wouldn't even let Mario get the star or that Mario could attack Marth himself instead of waiting for Marth to attack. I am excited to hear these battles ).

 

[RODO]

Let me ask a few questions just to get some people thinking. If Rosalina is so strong, why does she even need Mario in the first place? Regarding Mewtwo we have to get this canon thing down. You have him mind controlling and being uncatchable in one instance, and then being very catchable and losing to mega charizard (seriously, get wrecked) in another. Is he super unstoppable or not??

This is what needs to happen. A few people need to break up the franchises and start listing abilities and powers of those characters. Then everyone will have a better idea of what each character is capable of and we can figure out which powers are legit and which shouldn't be allowed. Is PT brawl's PT or just PT in general? Things like this need answers.

Edit: Pretty much what Raykz said, but I think we should figure out everyone's powers/abilities before making them fight.

 

[josh bones]

Mario beats bowser, he doesn't have star rod so no chance for him. Loses to Rosalina, Black hole. Beats Red, Multibounce Targets everybody so he can go from the pokemon to Red. More later

 

[Admiral Pit]

When the Pit and Palutena one come, let me know.

As for the Mario stuff, Bowser does lose, he gets beaten practically every time, even to Peach in her game. However, we know he's the only one who can survive falling into lava, with the exception of 2 times (NSMB on the 3ds I think, and Mario 3d land), where he is likely to become Dry Bowser. Even then, he still can fight as his skeleton self. There's also a time where he's fallen into a black hole iirc (Galaxy 2 final boss?) and still eventually seems okay afterwards. So is poor Bowser practically the worst, despite being more resistant than them?

 

[josh bones]

When the Pit and Palutena one come, let me know.

As for the Mario stuff, Bowser does lose, he gets beaten practically every time, even to Peach in her game. However, we know he's the only one who can survive falling into lava, with the exception of 2 times (NSMB on the 3ds I think, and Mario 3d land), where he is likely to become Dry Bowser. Even then, he still can fight as his skeleton self. There's also a time where he's fallen into a black hole iirc (Galaxy 2 final boss?) and still eventually seems okay afterwards. So is poor Bowser practically the worst, despite being more resistant than them?

No, he just loses to the itallian dude, the worst guy on this list would probably be the insane krockodile

 

[Admiral Pit]

No, he just loses to the itallian dude, the worst guy on this list would probably be the insane krockodile

Oops. Mistake for me. This is Mario we're supposed to be talking bout, not Bowser. We know he beats Bowser practically every time, with the exception of the Super Princess Peach game (where Peach beats Bowser, but that's another story). Tbh, idk who else Mario could beat besides Bowser... and previously DK back then in other games.
We know Mario can use different items like the Starman, Super/Mega Mushroom, Fire/Ice Flower, etc. But as far as I know, getting hit makes him lose that power (except Mega Mushroom and Starman iirc).

 

[josh bones]

He could beat red via multibounce, he jumps on red mon, then him, than back to the mon, then red.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Mario Matchups; This is going off of Mario being equipped with items from games. Fire flowers shoot fire, Starman makes him invulnerable and faster, Mega Mushroom makes him colossal, etc.

beats ( Ganon = invulnerable, Sonic can travel at ridiculous speeds and has ridiculous reflexs. Ness' power is outrageous according to Mother fans.)
beats (We need to decide on Mewtwos canon. If we're hazey on it, we can say Sonic can reverse time like he did in Sonic X. Are we going by game Mewtwo at the highest level or anime Mewtwo? Or a mix of the two?)
beats (Although, we need to decide whether Rosalinas personality would opt her to engage in hardcore combat. Shes a goddess of the Cosmos, but what does that count for? She
beats (Kirby is 'indestructable' as some mention, and Samus' armor is strong as well. They both have a range of abilities.)

beats (I know what you're thinking, but Bowser always comes back, he's only really just blasted off into space, runs away, or disappears. If we go with the actual flat open land design, Mario wouldn't be able to kill him, just weaken him. Ofcourse, Paper Mario he knocks Bowser out but never truly kills him. And most of the time Bowser has more HP than Mario.)

beats ( Many Fire Emblem enthuasists insist that Marth and Ike are invulnerable to most attacks. You got me on Roy though. Pit is equipped with God beating power and many weapons. MK is close with Kirby to being 'the strongest in the galaxy.' Lucas has advanced PSI abilities that don't beat Ness' but are still very strong. I don't know enough about Lucas or Mother to strongly make my own cases, but these are from what I read)

beat (Give me some feedback on this. DK can punch the moon, but Mario does have some super human strength as well. As for Wario, I'm not certain of his abilities. I'd place him at a lose but I've never played the Wario Land games. I don't know Kirby lore, but given MK and Kirby are so strong i'd think the same of Dedede. But prove me wrong, please.)


Megaman, (All Links) beat (Don't underestimate Link or Snake. Snake is a smart tactician and physically advanced. Link knows how to read opponents and take advantage of weaknesses)


beats (Mario beats everyone from his universe. Lucario is a fighter but nothing Mario can't handle. Mario can deal with Zelda magic, as in canon she's usually never fit to fight. The StarFox team only have Arwings. In an actual fight they'd be pretty useless.

vs (All are superhuman in strength. Samus being trained by aliens and Captain falcon achieving bone-breaking speeds.)

beats/,,, Villager, WFT, , (Self explanatory really.)

??? ( G&W is flat. How does one grab or effect a flat object? He isn't flimsy either, and being that thin comes with sharpness. I'm staying by my belief that G&W is high on this list but I'll let others chime in.)

 

[dimensionsword64]

Mario vs Anybody who's somebody.

Mario loses.

 

[Superyoshiom]

So we got Palkia. It looks pretty cool. Does this deconfirm spear pillar as a past stage?

Sorry, my bad. This comment was meant for the Miiverse thread.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Palutena, a real goddess, would wreck Magical Girl Rosalina in an instant no doubt.

 

[Spazzy_D]

I can't be the only one that thinks Pit would absolutely wreck Ganondorf, not that I think Pit is more powerful, but it seems like a bad match up for Ganondorf.

 

[Comeback Kid]

I can't be the only one that thinks Pit would absolutely wreck Ganondorf, not that I think Pit is more powerful, but it seems like a bad match up for Ganondorf.

The whole light weakness would probably come into play.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Palutena, a real goddess, would wreck Magical Girl Rosalina in an instant no doubt.

As much as I want to discuss her and Pit *insert heart-shaped eyes here*, today's spotlight belongs to Mario, so... yea.

We'll be using this post for the order of each character, one per day:
http://smashboards.com/threads/whos...aracter-in-smash.347421/page-11#post-16305463

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

Mario Matchups; This is going off of Mario being equipped with items from games. Fire flowers shoot fire, Starman makes him invulnerable and faster, Mega Mushroom makes him colossal, etc.

beats ( Ganon = invulnerable, Sonic can travel at ridiculous speeds and has ridiculous reflexs. Ness' power is outrageous according to Mother fans.)
beats (We need to decide on Mewtwos canon. If we're hazey on it, we can say Sonic can reverse time like he did in Sonic X. Are we going by game Mewtwo at the highest level or anime Mewtwo? Or a mix of the two?)
beats (Although, we need to decide whether Rosalinas personality would opt her to engage in hardcore combat. Shes a goddess of the Cosmos, but what does that count for? She
beats (Kirby is 'indestructable' as some mention, and Samus' armor is strong as well. They both have a range of abilities.)

beats (I know what you're thinking, but Bowser always comes back, he's only really just blasted off into space, runs away, or disappears. If we go with the actual flat open land design, Mario wouldn't be able to kill him, just weaken him. Ofcourse, Paper Mario he knocks Bowser out but never truly kills him. And most of the time Bowser has more HP than Mario.)

beats ( Many Fire Emblem enthuasists insist that Marth and Ike are invulnerable to most attacks. You got me on Roy though. Pit is equipped with God beating power and many weapons. MK is close with Kirby to being 'the strongest in the galaxy.' Lucas has advanced PSI abilities that don't beat Ness' but are still very strong. I don't know enough about Lucas or Mother to strongly make my own cases, but these are from what I read)

beat (Give me some feedback on this. DK can punch the moon, but Mario does have some super human strength as well. As for Wario, I'm not certain of his abilities. I'd place him at a lose but I've never played the Wario Land games. I don't know Kirby lore, but given MK and Kirby are so strong i'd think the same of Dedede. But prove me wrong, please.)


Megaman, (All Links) beat (Don't underestimate Link or Snake. Snake is a smart tactician and physically advanced. Link knows how to read opponents and take advantage of weaknesses)


beats (Mario beats everyone from his universe. Lucario is a fighter but nothing Mario can't handle. Mario can deal with Zelda magic, as in canon she's usually never fit to fight. The StarFox team only have Arwings. In an actual fight they'd be pretty useless.

vs (All are superhuman in strength. Samus being trained by aliens and Captain falcon achieving bone-breaking speeds.)

beats/,,, Villager, WFT, , (Self explanatory really.)

??? ( G&W is flat. How does one grab or effect a flat object? He isn't flimsy either, and being that thin comes with sharpness. I'm staying by my belief that G&W is high on this list but I'll let others chime in.)

I'll help elaborate on some of the matchups, especially ambiguous ones.

beats : I've never heard that she caused the Big Bang for the Mario universe in any canon material. Rosalina's backstory is about her and a Luma traveling to find their mothers. The cosmos is shown to exist before this point. So if there's any retcons or plot details missing here, this would make Rosalina a remnant of a realm that existed before the Mario universe. Can anyone clarify this? Otherwise, her power of cosmic forces demonstrated could easily destroy many things. She even has control of the life force in the Mario series (star dust formed from dead galaxies travel across space to other galaxies and become Lumas. Rosalina helps nurture the Lumas to the state in which they can transform into celestial objects, and perhaps even more). Luma, with the aid of Rosalina's magic, can bloat and cause a supernova to create a new galaxy, which would blow Mario into oblivion.

beat: The space pilots of the StarFox series certainly aren't slouches when out of the cockpits of their Arwings or Wolfen. Fox and Falco are resilient, fast fighters. Their shields can deflect any projectile effects Mario may have (Fire Flower, Ice Flower, etc.) They also have G-Diffusors which allow them to manipulate the force of gravity exerted on them to do extremely fast attacks like the Fox/Falco Flash and Fire Fox/Falcon. Wolf is considered an equal rival to Fox, so he should be considered on par with all of his capabilities.

beats: Yeah, both have superhuman ability. But Captain Falcon can do some serious damage to Mario if he lands the right attack. Anime characteristics notwithstanding, the Falcon Punch is powerful enough to knock over a giant R.O.B. as seen in the Subspace Emissary. Imagine what it would do to Mario even with a Mega Mushroom. The Falcon Kick should be considered to have similar effects, albeit to a lesser extent. Let's not forget about the Blue Falcon. F-Zero lists its max horsepower as 3,200 PS and max speed as 457 Km/h. Not enough to trump out Sonic's Mach speeds, assuming the arena is on or close to sea level, but still fast enough to catch Mario in a split second.

beats: Really a matter of which Pikachu Mario's fighting. The one in the Smash Bros. series shares many traits with Ash's Pikachu from the anime. Pikachu's stats seen in the Pokemon games sum its abilities to be really fast and have potent special attacks. If Pikachu has the Static ability, the chances of paralyzing Mario are really easy, retarding his atheletic ability or stopping it completely. Pikachu's Volt Tackle would be enough electricity and force to knock him out. Maybe shut down organs.

beats: Wario's superhuman ability is considered higher than Mario's as he is seen throwing and holding objects much bigger than himself like in Wario World or the Wario Land games. His arsenal is enough to rival Mario as well, including Fire and Metal. Though he has access to magnets and thunder powerups if Mario goes Metal. His Wario Bike is mentioned to have top speeds of 217 mph with 350 horsepower. Not to mention his caustic, explosive farts that can be as big as a nuclear explosion (SSBB reveal trailer). Although, Mario can persevere enough to beat Wario and his running speed and jumps are faster and lighter.

on par with : Mario has the knowledge of too many professions to list. Even if he isn't very practical with them. Mario would just have to make himself overdose on pills. Dr. Mario and Mario having different bodies as seen in Melee is likely the result of some alternate universe nonsense or one or both being "trophies." Either way, both have the same physical capabilities there.

on par with: Zero Suit Samus has the reflexes of a Chozo as well as extreme nimbleness and ability to contort her bodies into very small shapes. Her Plasma Whip/Blaster full charge shot and the static discharge from it seen in her Down Smash would paralyze Mario, allowing for her to kill him. Needless to say, Mario has the durability and strength needed to deal with her.

on par with: DK can unleash enough force to drop moons. Mario has dropped objects the size of planets and launched a giant Bowser into a black hole. Speaking of which, Bowser is fierce powerhouse of strength and endurance that is more powerful than Mario in one-on-one combat. Yet his weight and size have shown to be nothing Mario can't handle at least with perseverance as seen in Mario 64, Galaxys 1 & 2, and even the NSMB series.

beats: Bowser also demonstrates the ability to live and fight as a skeleton (Dry Bowser). Giga Bowser could easily destroy Mario though just by his increased abilities. Any other powerups Mario either has a counter for or can endure enough to break. Mario can beat Bowser with relative ease, but Bowser's resilience allows him to keep coming back at Mario.

beats : I'm an expert on Kirby lore and I can say that King Dedede's feats cannot trump over Kirby's or Meta Knight's. The least he has done is establish a rather ineffective dictatorship and freeloads off of Kirby's resume of cosmic horrors defeated, which we should assume he has the proper strength and endurance to deal with them. But Mario's fought a larger variety of villains and pulled off some stunts and fatal blows Dedede hasn't. Sure, his hammer can inflict serious damage and has strength seen in DK or Bowser. Nothing Mario hasn't/can't handle(d). It should also be noted that King Dedede has a childish, pouty temperament and is usually most fierce under the possession of supernatural entities such as Dark Matter or Daranza.

beats: Diddy Kong lacks the physical strength of DK, but is much lighter than him. His physical capabilities are trumped by Mario and his powerups. His Barrel Jetpack and Peanut Popguns wouldn't be much use against him either.

beats: Points brought up in this thread really make me reconsider G&W's body structure and natural characteristics. His should be considered sharp with his perfect 2D dimensions. But that makes him extremely vulnerable when open on his flat surfaces. G&W's material is monochrome liquid crystal. Small amounts of light shouldn't hurt that much and his body compostion would make him compact. However, the molecular structure of crystal suggests he'd be fragile and would break if hit hard enough. Mario's physical capabilities could destroy and power-ups could destroy G&W even with all the tools he can generate out of nowhere, all of which are predictable. Although, G&W has been shown to contain some compound in his body that can replicate copies of himself and maybe even transform multiple copies into large objects or beings, as seen with Duon in the Subspace Emissary. However, that is an unknown variable.

beats : Yoshi has always been Mario's *****. His jumps can access higher places and he can digest giant objects to crush Mario. But Mario can easily hitch a ride on his back and ram him into a wall or off a cliff or something. How about that boost jump too? That's practically a spike by Smash Bros. standards. Not to say, Yoshi has accomplished some impressive feats, such as repelling a roughly 500 meter tall Baby Bowser with the aim of his eggs alone. Whether the Yoshi in the Yoshi's Island series or the Yoshi who becomes a Star Child at the end of Yoshi's Island DS is the one who appears in spin-offs is up for debate (Personally, I'm in favor of the first.)

 

[Comeback Kid]

I'll help elaborate on some of the matchups, especially ambiguous ones.

beats : I've never heard that she caused the Big Bang for the Mario universe in any canon material. Rosalina's backstory is about her and a Luma traveling to find their mothers. The cosmos is shown to exist before this point. So if there's any retcons or plot details missing here, this would make Rosalina a remnant of a realm that existed before the Mario universe. Can anyone clarify this? Otherwise, her power of cosmic forces demonstrated could easily destroy many things. She even has control of the life force in the Mario series (star dust formed from dead galaxies travel across space to other galaxies and become Lumas. Rosalina helps nurture the Lumas to the state in which they can transform into celestial objects, and perhaps even more). Luma, with the aid of Rosalina's magic, can bloat and cause a supernova to create a new galaxy, which would blow Mario into oblivion.

I know this is a running theme, but I really think this is a chicken and egg situation.

People assume that Rosalina gives the Lumas the power to do what they do, but from the evidence it seems MUCH more likely that the Lumas give Rosalina her royal power. She left home as a little girl and only by traveling with the Lumas does she become who she is now.

They choose her to be their mother figure, and they can take away that title anytime they want.

So really, it's Luma beating Mario. But I don't think a single Luma is powerful enough to beat Mario, especially since they get easily lost and are kind of stupid. Especially when Mario is allowed to use power ups.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

If it weren't for the power they granted Rosalina, they are mince meat to Mario no doubt. Even without her power alone, Mario would easily beat them. Although, she may have to provide them copious amounts of Star Bits or a lot of cosmic magic to do serious damage.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Well, here is my thinking on the chain of power: King Koopa easily crushed her star bits power and left her helpless in her tower.

Koopa is always defeated by Mario, and has even been defeated by Princess Peach as well.

So if a character can't stand up to a moron like Koopa, how can she take on the greatest hero that Earth has even known?

Mario has even survived being sucked into a black hole as someone else mentioned, what can she possibly throw at him that he can't dodge, jump on or counter?

So whoever is counting the votes, I say Rosalina has too many easily exploited weaknesses and Mario beats her. This also means she is weak to many other characters too, and I don't think it's right for this same argument to be hashed out over and over again for different Rosalina match-ups.

 

[CardiganBoy]

We are all forgetting that Young Link can turn into this:

 

[pitthekit]

We are all forgetting that Young Link can turn into this:

Not impressive. Sure fierce deity represents links relationship wit the moon.

Link with golden gauntlets and giants mask makes him pick up almost anything in hyrule.

 

[bigbro2233]

Pichu of course. It's a no-brainer!

 

[deebeethedeity]

Invalid arguments. Mario only beats bowser for the sake of plot and cause you cant have game where bowser wins. Bowser has super strength and actual fire breathing. He's definitely higher than mario. HE strength is probably in ganondorf's range. Throwq aside this starrod crap, same thing wiht pokemon trainer having the creation trio and arceus. We should instead be judging charizard, squirtle, and ivysaur.

and with ganondorf you guys fail to remember he has superhuman strength not just invulnerabilty. HIgh level too, not like spiderman level. Also using spiderman, characters like link, kirby and mario beat characters far more powerful than them just like spidey. Spiderman certainly isnt on electro or rhino or venom's level. So why are we putting them so high in the list.

and just because Mr. G and W is flat INGAME doesnt mean he would be in real life. Amazing Ampharos' post was correct but invalid because he only is flat to represent his games in ssb series. IN reality he wouldnt be. Every character started out flat if they were born in the nes era or before. Its just that all the others got games after. GW didnt.

 

[CardiganBoy]

Not impressive. Sure fierce deity represents links relationship wit the moon.

Link with golden gauntlets and giants mask makes him pick up almost anything in hyrule.

I think you are joking, because if you can kill Twinmold with the Fierce Deity Mask then FD Mask has to be better than the Giant Mask, plus Fierce Deity Link is like a god, i'm sure that gives him superhuman powers.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Also using spiderman, characters like link, kirby and mario beat characters far more powerful than them just like spidey. Spiderman certainly isnt on electro or rhino or venom's level. So why are we putting them so high in the list.

If Spider-man is logically guaranteed to beat Rhino by outwitting him and just being too fast to be damaged, then he sure as hell is more powerful the way that Versus match ups are judged.

The heroes you mentioned all level up their powers with items through out their games. If their power ups make them really strong, which many do, it doesn't matter what the villain's base power level is. The hero surpasses it logically unless the villain grabs an equally powerful item that is just as easily obtained and they know how to wield properly. You can't discount that when it's explicitly a part of the match ups.

I do agree about Pokémon Trainer, he should be limited to the playable Pokémon found in the game at least.

 

[josh bones]

If Spider-man is logically guaranteed to beat Rhino by outwitting him and just being too fast to be damaged, then he sure as hell is more powerful the way that Versus match ups are judged.

The heroes you mentioned all level up their powers with items through out their games. If their power ups make them really strong, which many do, it doesn't matter what the villain's base power level is. The hero surpasses it logically unless the villain grabs an equally powerful item that is just as easily obtained and they know how to wield properly. You can't discount that when it's explicitly a part of the match ups.

I do agree about Pokémon Trainer, he should be limited to the playable Pokémon found in the game at least.

In canon, he doesn't have 3 pokemon, he has 6. He should only have gen 1-2 pokemon though

 

[Comeback Kid]

In canon, he doesn't have 3 pokemon, he has 6. He should only have gen 1-2 pokemon though

He can capture the other 3 Pokémon he needs from the playable character roster is what I was getting at.

 

[josh bones]

He can capture the other 3 Pokémon he needs from the playable character roster is what I was getting at.

But his name is POKEMON TRAINER, unless we go the pm route and give the pokemon individual slots. he should have gen 1-2 pokemon and 6. Or should Mario just have his smash bros power ups?

 

[Comeback Kid]

I think we should separate the Pokémon if this is going to be a problem later, because Pokémon Trainer isn't explicitly Red and having to figure out how powerful he is with the best Pokémon from whatever generations are allowed would be an absolute nightmare.

The moderator needs to set the ground rules for this kind of thing because we won't be able to agree on what is fair on our own.

 

[pitthekit]

I think you are joking, because if you can kill Twinmold with the Fierce Deity Mask then FD Mask has to be better than the Giant Mask, plus Fierce Deity Link is like a god, i'm sure that gives him superhuman powers.

Stop looking at the plot...

We don't know the power of fierce deitys mask- it is just the moons perception of link.
I mean link did time travel in MM how would the moon know he time traveled?
To the moon, link has saved terminia and helped everyone's problems in only three days(requires all masks for FD)

So the moon most Lilkely thought link was fierce saving the giants and everyone's problems in 3 days.
The moon thought link was a god.
Look at FD armour... Triforce and moon.

And link can pick up a granite pillar and throw it a great distance with the golden gauntlet. The giants mask would only amplify that power.

 

[josh bones]

I think we should separate the Pokémon if this is going to be a problem later, because Pokémon Trainer isn't explicitly Red and having to figure out how powerful he is with the best Pokémon from whatever generations are allowed would be an absolute nightmare.

The moderator needs to set the ground rules for this kind of thing because we won't be able to agree on what is fair on our own.

My 2 cents:
He IS red, so he can only have the first 2 genz, Raykz?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

2. but nothing can go though protect
5. if red can use any pokemon then hes at the top (Arceus )

Shadow force and phantom force both go through protect.

 

[Chiroz]

I think we should separate the Pokémon if this is going to be a problem later, because Pokémon Trainer isn't explicitly Red and having to figure out how powerful he is with the best Pokémon from whatever generations are allowed would be an absolute nightmare.

The moderator needs to set the ground rules for this kind of thing because we won't be able to agree on what is fair on our own.

Ok for this, I agree with what is being said about sticking to cannon with him. Pokemon Trainer we can all consider to be Red (he is never explicitly referenced as Red, but we all know he is) and cannonically Red was able to capture all 251 pokemon (Gen 1 and 2). As such Red is able to use any 6 pokemon from Gen 1 and 2 that is not playable in Smash Bros (as it would be stupid to compare the same thing twice).



Remember people like Mario or Bowser can use power ups from their own series and as such some fights might play out differently depending on which power ups Mario decides to use (although all power ups retain their series traits, as in duration, durability, etc.)



Now for the other topic, the one on which cannon to use, it is a difficult topic to engage.

There are 3 things to consider different from a different cannon. Abilities, overall power and personality.

The pokemons, Zelda trilogy and Metroid characters are some of the ones that suffer the most from this.

My first suggestion was to take the cannon that matches the Smash representation of the character, but some characters like Samus or Link have gone through several representations in Smash.

I think the most logical thing to do is take the most powerful "cannon" representation from each of the different cannon representations as the representation to use at all times.



For Mewtwo it would probably be either his manga representation or his Anime Kanto representation.

For Link I would guess it is OoT Link.

Zelda would probably be Skyward Sword since she has goddess-like powers (although she never really uses them, so IDK how that would work, probably have to use OoT Zelda again)

Ganondorf would probably be TP Ganon or one of his Ganon incarnations.

So on and so forth. But this is a hard topic to discuss, what are your opinions on which cannon should be used?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Sonic can't knock out national pokedex trainer as he has control over time.

super sonic is unafexted by time aka following robotnic time eater machine

Actually someone just brought up that Mewtwo in fact can delete and create memories at will. I think that would allow him to beat those characters who might have been a tough fight for him. (I.E.: Ganondorf, Kirby)

Red needs to actually throw a pokemon out to win if we're going by cannon then. Many people can stop that from happening. Ness, Lucas, Mewtwo, Sonic come to mind.

Ganondorf is agerssive and dominant by nature (aka demise) deleate his memories and he will still fight.

You make him believe you are his master of sorts. Or delete his memories to confuse him, teleport him to a place he doesn't know and then delete his new memories for good measure and leave.

In some games thats virtually how he became king of some lands Xd

throw him into space like they did in jojo's bizarre adventure like i have said
for once explain how ganon can win instead of just saying immortal


you can grab invincible people you just can't "hurt them"

if Ganon can no longer fight he loses

is ganon can use magic 2 fly he can use it to get back 2 earth

Well, how would Ganon win when he can't remember any of his attacks :D

Ganon has used magic off of sheer impules like in TP so dosent really matter.

No.

He doesn't have blessed Armor, only the Black Knight had that and he ended up losing it in RD. Ike only has a double blessed weapon (both Asherea and Yune blessed the weapon), this puts it on Master Sword level.

But I don't get how people came up with that argument when he doesn’t have the necessary protection against weapons not blessed by Ashera or Yune.

lol the master sword has power from 3 goddesses can be upgraded STILL imbued with magic power. Can shoot beams and can't be destroyed its on a higher level than ikes sword.

pretty sure he proves how strong he is in this battle with a guy who blows up planets
also i'm not trying to prove Kirby is the strongest just proving that Ganon is weak (Kirby top 3 btw)

none of the planets that were deystroyed were proven to be protected by some form of diety so it dosent really matter.

Also rosalina caused the big bang and should honestly be S tier.

 

[SmashShadow]

I think the difference between raw power and match-ups needs to be explained because Mario may beat Bowser 100% of the time, but there is no doubt that Bowser is more powerful.

 

[Chiroz]

I think the difference between raw power and match-ups needs to be explained because Mario may beat Bowser 100% of the time, but there is no doubt that Bowser is more powerful.

That's the reason why characters won't be ranked on who beats who but on: How many of the rest of the cast can you beat?

 

[josh bones]

loses to , because Kirby has more options.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Canonically, I'd say Samus.

Villager really.