Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

Nerdicon · Feb 28, 2015

Munomario777 said:
Marth's still in the game thanks to the losers bracket, so there's still hope left!

I've never played a Fire Emblem game, I just did research. My opinion doesn't matter anymore...

Diddy Kong · Mar 1, 2015

Question, if

gains 'Goddess invincibility' shouldn't

also get it? I think there's no reason for him not to, which would make him a lot more powerful than people would think. I think that

could potentially even beat

. Aether is gonna hit him hard, and Ragnell is a divine weapon so

would be able to get hurt. Provided

canoncally took down Mad King Ashnard, the Black Knight, Deginshia and even Ashera I don't see how

would be able to stop him.

Munomario777 · Mar 1, 2015

Diddy Kong said:
Question, if gains 'Goddess invincibility' shouldn't also get it? I think there's no reason for him not to, which would make him a lot more powerful than people would think. I think that could potentially even beat . Aether is gonna hit him hard, and Ragnell is a divine weapon so would be able to get hurt. Provided canoncally took down Mad King Ashnard, the Black Knight, Deginshia and even Ashera I don't see how would be able to stop him.

When is it said that Ike is invincible to non-holy attacks? Also, I'm pretty sure that he can die in the FE games, due to the nature of those games.

Munomario777 · Mar 1, 2015

VS

FIGHT!!!

Rules:

The battlefield is a ten-mile-wide square arena, with a solid concrete floor and infinitely thick solid steel walls, as well as a solid concrete ceiling ten miles up; nothing comes in, nothing comes out. There are no ties; the battle goes on until someone loses.
No ally assistance is allowed here.
Any ammo/use count/etc. that applies in the source game applies here, and each character gets a full stock of one-use items.
No time travel, teleportation, etc. to escape; if a combatant is absent from the arena for more than ten seconds of normal time, they forfeit the match.
Limited-use attacks, techniques, etc. cannot be used to counter attacks that can be used more than them (for instance, if Kirby used a one-time-use invincibility item to protect against one of Rosalina's attacks, she could simply attack again after the invincibility ran out and Kirby would have to do something different; thus, I will be skipping to the second time).
All items, techniques, attacks, etc. the character has used are compiled here.
Kirby may switch between all of his Copy Abilities thanks to the Copy Essence Deluxe; however, if one gets knocked out of him while he's using it, he cannot get it back.
Rosalina gets to use the Lumas (since the character is Rosalina & Luma), and their abilities to transform into celestial bodies such as stars, planets, etc.
If there are any abilities I don't list, it's simply because I didn't feel that they would have a major impact due to either other abilities being superior or similar to the unlisted ability (or they violate the rules listed above).

With the ground rules out of the way, let's delve right into this matchup! First up, Kirby is on the offensive!

's Attack: Inhale
Kirby inhales opponents to copy their abilities.

's Counter: Too Big!
Seeing as how Kirby is only six inches tall, Rosalina would be too big to inhale.

's Counter Counter: Hypernova
Kirby can use the Hypernova ability to suck up large objects such as Rosalina.

's Counter Counter Counter: Teleport
Rosalina can teleport, which would enable her to escape the vortex.

's Attack: Copy Abilities
Kirby has dozens upon dozens of Copy Abilities to attack opponents, from swords and hammers to ice and fire.

's Counter: Shield
Rosalina has a protective force field that she can emit at any time to protect her from damage.

While Kirby has many attacks at his disposal, they're not much use when the opponent has an impenetrable force field.

Next up, Rosalina is on the offensive!

's Attack: Spin
Rosalina can use the power of the Lumas to perform a brief spinning attack to damage opponents.

's Counter: Stone
Kirby's Stone ability allows Kirby to become invulnerable for an indefinite amount of time.

's Counter Counter: Wait it Out
Kirby cannot attack while in Stone, and would have to come out eventually to attack.

's Counter Counter Counter: Wheel
The Wheel Copy Ability allows Kirby to roll around in an invincible wheel form at blazing speeds. Damageable only by spikes, which Rosalina doesn't seem to have.

's Counter Counter Counter Counter: Wait it Out... But With Flight!
Rosalina can fly through the air, and the Wheel cannot jump that high.

's Attack: Star Bits
Rosalina can shoot high-speed Star Bits, which can stun opponents and deal a bit of damage.

's Counter: Inhale
Kirby could easily inhale the Star Bits to negate them.

's Attack: Luma Transform
The Lumas can turn into anything from Mushrooms (to heal Rosalina) and small planets to entire galaxies, stars, and even black holes!

's Counter: N/A
Even if Kirby waited it out with Stone, the black hole/star wouldn't disappear over time, so Kirby would eventually get damaged (plus, the black hole would even suck in his Stone form due to the intense gravity, which Stone succumbs to since it falls in the Kirby games).

SUMMARY: While Kirby has the variety, Rosalina has the raw power, which is just too much for the pink puffball.

WINNER:

This analysis is part of the bracket

Kirby Dragons · Mar 1, 2015

Munomario777 said:
VS
FIGHT!!!

Rules:

The battlefield is a ten-mile-wide square arena, with a solid concrete floor and infinitely thick and infinitely high solid steel walls; nothing comes in, nothing comes out. There are no ties; the battle goes on until someone loses.

No ally assistance is allowed here.

Any ammo/use count/etc. that applies in the source game applies here, and each character gets a full stock of one-use items.

No time travel, teleportation, etc. to escape; if a combatant is absent from the arena for more than ten seconds of normal time, they forfeit the match.

Limited-use attacks, techniques, etc. cannot be used to counter attacks that can be used more than them (for instance, if Kirby used a one-time-use invincibility item to protect against one of Rosalina's attacks, she could simply attack again after the invincibility ran out and Kirby would have to do something different; thus, I will be skipping to the second time).

All items, techniques, attacks, etc. the character has used are compiled here.

Kirby may switch between all of his Copy Abilities thanks to the Copy Essence Deluxe; however, if one gets knocked out of him while he's using it, he cannot get it back.

Rosalina gets to use the Lumas (since the character is Rosalina & Luma), and their abilities to transform into celestial bodies such as stars, planets, etc.

If there are any abilities I don't list, it's simply because I didn't feel that they would have a major impact due to either other abilities being superior or similar to the unlisted ability (or they violate the rules listed above).

With the ground rules out of the way, let's delve right into this matchup! First up, Kirby is on the offensive!
's Attack: Inhale
Kirby inhales opponents to copy their abilities.
's Counter: Too Big!
Seeing as how Kirby is only six inches tall, Rosalina would be too big to inhale.
's Counter Counter: Hypernova
Kirby can use the Hypernova ability to suck up large objects such as Rosalina.
's Counter Counter Counter: Teleport
Rosalina can teleport, which would enable her to escape the vortex.

's Attack: Copy Abilities
Kirby has dozens upon dozens of Copy Abilities to attack opponents, from swords and hammers to ice and fire.
's Counter: Shield
Rosalina has a protective force field that she can emit at any time to protect her from damage.

While Kirby has many attacks at his disposal, they're not much use when the opponent has an impenetrable force field.

Next up, Rosalina is on the offensive!
's Attack: Spin
Rosalina can use the power of the Lumas to perform a brief spinning attack to damage opponents.
's Counter: Stone
Kirby's Stone ability allows Kirby to become invulnerable for an indefinite amount of time.
's Counter Counter: Wait it Out
Kirby cannot attack while in Stone, and would have to come out eventually to attack.
's Counter Counter Counter: Wheel
The Wheel Copy Ability allows Kirby to roll around in an invincible wheel form at blazing speeds. Damageable only by spikes, which Rosalina doesn't seem to have.
's Counter Counter Counter Counter: Wait it Out... But With Flight!
Rosalina can fly through the air, and the Wheel cannot jump that high.

's Attack: Star Bits
Rosalina can shoot high-speed Star Bits, which can stun opponents and deal a bit of damage.
's Counter: Inhale
Kirby could easily inhale the Star Bits to negate them.

's Attack: Luma Transform
The Lumas can turn into anything from Mushrooms (to heal Rosalina) and small planets to entire galaxies, stars, and even black holes!
's Counter: N/A
Even if Kirby waited it out with Stone, the black hole/star wouldn't disappear over time, so Kirby would eventually get damaged (plus, the black hole would even suck in his Stone form due to the intense gravity, which Stone succumbs to since it falls in the Kirby games).

SUMMARY: While Kirby has the variety, Rosalina has the raw power, which is just too much for the pink puffball.

WINNER:

I disagree with this, so I'll make my own version.

Crystanium · Mar 1, 2015

I'm back again, here to provide everyone with the information of Samus Aran, the greatest bounty hunter in the galaxies.

Strength
In the battle against Vorash, Samus throws this mighty creature up into the air at least 10 meters. While doing so, she not only has to work against Vorash's pull, but also the viscosity of lava and his large body. Let me illustrate. Whales prop their heads out of the water, but Vorash, who is swimming in liquid 100,000 times more viscous than water, is capable of launching himself out of lava around the same height Samus throws him. Not only that, swimming in lava means Vorash is denser, thus making him heavier than any whale you compare him to.

Originally, I was going to work with a whale shark, but it would seem more appropriate to compare Vorash to a Byrde's whale, which can weigh anywhere between 12 to 25 metric tons. I can use this to get an approximation of Vorash's mass. Considering Vorash not only has four, large fins and is pretty much wearing lava, according to the Metroid: Other M concept art, I think taking an average of 12 and 25 could be reasonable. What this means is I will use a Byrde's whale's mass of 18.5 metric tons.

Next, since whales are close density compare to water (1 g/cm^3), I will take the whale's density to be just that. Volume is mass over density, so this would mean that because Vorash is in the lava, I will assume his density is 3 g/cm^3, only because magma and lava are lower than 3 g/cm^3, but more than 1 g/cm^3. Remember, a whale probably has a density of 1 g/cm^3, so I'm using this as a way to find the volume.

V = 18,500,000 g. / 1 g/cm^3
V = 18,500,000 cm^3

Now that I have the volume, I will use 3 g/cm^3 to find the approximate mass of Vorash.

m = 3 g/cm^3 * 18,500,000 cm^3
m = 55,500,000 g., or 55.5 metric tons

Speed
According to both the Metroid Fusion and Metroid: Zero Mission manuals, the speed booster allows Samus to "dash at supersonic speeds". This would place Samus above Mach 1.2. It could be Mach 1.3, but I think that would be a negligible speed increase to even bother saying "speeds", especially when Mach 1.3 also falls under supersonic speed. I think that it would be at least reasonable to work with Mach 2, even though it's feasible that Samus can dash Mach 4.9.

Durability
Samus has been through many missions where her armor needed a defense increase and even immunity to specific hazards. Since I'm using the Metroid: Other M incarnation (since this is the skin used in Super Smash Bros. Wii U), Samus will have a 75% damage reduction and immunity gravity manipulation, as well as temperatures reaching at least 700°C (1,292°F), and including the coldness of space (-270.45°C; -454.81°F). Absolute zero is -273.15°C, or -459.67°F. Concerning damage reduction, if an attack were to remove 100 energy units, or 1 energy tank, then with both the varia and gravity features, Samus would only lose 25 energy units.

Weaponry
Samus actually wields directed-energy weapons. For example, the wave beam (as I have reasoned before) would be emitting gamma radiation, an electromagnetic wave, which would put this weapon's speed at the speed of light. I'm not sure what the ice beam is, but it does not fire a refrigerant like the freeze guns that the 07 Platoon wield. After all, the ammunition is unlimited, although it is portrayed as firing ice. So who knows? It could possibly use laser cooling. The plasma beam is by definition a directed-energy weapon, so there's nothing to address here.

Samus also wields the power bomb, which if is your typical nuclear weapon would produce a yield of 14 tons of TNT. If not, then it probably would be a thermobaric weapon, which would produce temperatures of up to 2,000 to 3,000°C (3,632 to 5,432°F). Adam Malkovich makes it quite clear that the power bomb produces a high-temperature heat wave capable of vaporizing humans (and even large, metallic creatures like Ingsmashers in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes). In the Metroid Prime trilogy, power bombs are effective against bendezium, which is a high-density alloy with a high melting point.

To end this off, I present this remastered video of Samus Aran versus Boba Fett. It was dedicated to the late Monty Oum, who created Haloid, among other great videos. I time stamped it to the beginning of the battle if anyone is interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcZCZ8ZNHMc&t=468s

Kirby Dragons · Mar 1, 2015

Dryn said:
I'm back again, here to provide everyone with the information of Samus Aran, the greatest bounty hunter in the galaxies.

Strength
In the battle against Vorash, Samus throws this mighty creature up into the air at least 10 meters. While doing so, she not only has to work against Vorash's pull, but also the viscosity of lava and his large body. Let me illustrate. Whales prop their heads out of the water, but Vorash, who is swimming in liquid 100,000 times more viscous than water, is capable of launching himself out of lava around the same height Samus throws him. Not only that, swimming in lava means Vorash is denser, thus making him heavier than any whale you compare him to.

Originally, I was going to work with a whale shark, but it would seem more appropriate to compare Vorash to a Byrde's whale, which can weigh anywhere between 12 to 25 metric tons. I can use this to get an approximation of Vorash's mass. Considering Vorash not only has four, large fins and is pretty much wearing lava, according to the Metroid: Other M concept art, I think taking an average of 12 and 25 could be reasonable. What this means is I will use a Byrde's whale's mass of 18.5 metric tons.

Next, since whales are close density compare to water (1 g/cm^3), I will take the whale's density to be just that. Volume is mass over density, so this would mean that because Vorash is in the lava, I will assume his density is 3 g/cm^3, only because magma and lava are lower than 3 g/cm^3, but more than 1 g/cm^3. Remember, a whale probably has a density of 1 g/cm^3, so I'm using this as a way to find the volume.

V = 18,500,000 g. / 1 g/cm^3
V = 18,500,000 cm^3

Now that I have the volume, I will use 3 g/cm^3 to find the approximate mass of Vorash.

m = 3 g/cm^3 * 18,500,000 cm^3
m = 55,500,000 g., or 55.5 metric tons

Speed
According to both the Metroid Fusion and Metroid: Zero Mission manuals, the speed booster allows Samus to "dash at supersonic speeds". This would place Samus above Mach 1.2. It could be Mach 1.3, but I think that would be a negligible speed increase to even bother saying "speeds", especially when Mach 1.3 also falls under supersonic speed. I think that it would be at least reasonable to work with Mach 2, even though it's feasible that Samus can dash Mach 4.9.

Durability
Samus has been through many missions where her armor needed a defense increase and even immunity to specific hazards. Since I'm using the Metroid: Other M incarnation (since this is the skin used in Super Smash Bros. Wii U), Samus will have a 75% damage reduction and immunity to temperatures reaching at least 700°C (1,292°F), as well as the coldness of space (-270.45°C; -454.81°F). Absolute zero is -273.15°C, or -459.67°F. Concerning damage reduction, if an attack were to remove 100 energy units, or 1 energy tank, then with both the varia and gravity features, Samus would only lose 25 energy units.

Weaponry
Samus actually wields directed-energy weapons. For example, the wave beam (as I have reasoned before) would be emitting gamma radiation, an electromagnetic wave, which would put this weapon's speed at the speed of light. I'm not sure what the ice beam is, but it does not fire a refrigerant like the freeze guns that the 07 Platoon wield. After all, the ammunition is unlimited, although it is portrayed as firing ice. So who knows? It could possibly use laser cooling. The plasma beam is by definition a directed-energy weapon, so there's nothing to address here.

Samus also wields the power bomb, which if is your typical nuclear weapon would produce a yield of 14 tons of TNT. If not, then it probably would be a thermobaric weapon, which would produce temperatures of up to 2,000 to 3,000°C (3,632 to 5,432°F). Adam Malkovich makes it quite clear that the power bomb produces a high-temperature heat wave capable of vaporizing humans (and even large, metallic creatures like Ingsmashers in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes). In the Metroid Prime trilogy, power bombs are effective against bendezium, which is a high-density alloy with a high melting point.

To end this off, I present this remastered video of Samus Aran versus Boba Fett. It was dedicated to the late Monty Oum, who created Haloid, among other great videos. I time stamped it to the beginning of the battle if anyone is interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcZCZ8ZNHMc&t=468s

Nice info. But we're doing a tournament right now, and Samus lost.

Crystanium · Mar 1, 2015

Kirby Dragons said:
Nice info. But we're doing a tournament right now, and Samus lost.

Samus lost against who? I saw that Samus was pitted against Ganondorf, but no discussion was made and I've already address why Ganondorf would lose around page 40+. I will reinterate. Ganondorf's immunity to all things except for that which repels evil is only made a statements by people like the sages. No doubt, they'd be wise, but that doesn't even address the fact that they are ignorant about Samus' weaponry because Samus doesn't exist in their universe.

Ganondorf's ability to withstand Valoo's flame is impressive, but based on color temperature, Ganondorf is at least 1,000 degrees short of Samus' plasma beam temperature. Furthermore, if we are going to use an incarnation, I'd be fine using Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, where Samus wields the light beam, a weapon used against the Ing, creatures of hatred, according to U-Mos.

So tell me how Ganondorf (a powerful sorcerer, no doubt) will survive a beam capable of passing through solid objects, a beam capable of piercing multiple enemies, a beam capable of freezing a near absolute zero temperatures, and a nuclear weapon capable of vaporizing humans, Ingsmashers, and even the Queen Metroid herself (who is immune to Samus' plasma beam)? He's protected from everything except that which repels evil? Prove it if that's your argument, because as far as I'm concerned, these statements come from characters ignorant of Samus. Comparatively speaking, these statements are like saying vampires can die only by decapitation or a stake to the heart, even though we know there are other methods.

Munomario777 · Mar 1, 2015

@Dyrn it's stated in canonical Zelda lore (as well as being demonstrated in-game throughout the series) that the "power to repel evil" (which is granted by the gods) is the only way to defeat Ganondorf. Instead of making assumptions like "Samus's lasers arent in Zelda, therefore they can kill Ganondorf," I think it would be best to compare weapons to the most similar equivalent in the Zelda series and go from there. There aren't really any lasers in the Zelda series, but there is the Light Arrow, which is similar to Samus's beams in some ways. It is effective against Ganondorf; however, it usually only stuns him in order for Link to finish him off with the Master Sword, so that wouldn't give Samus the victory. Tomorrow I'll make a note on the bracket post regarding the matchup.

Also, Samus isn't completely out of the tournament, thanks to the losers' bracket.

Crystanium · Mar 2, 2015

Munomario777 said:
@Dyrn it's stated in canonical Zelda lore (as well as being demonstrated in-game throughout the series) that the "power to repel evil" (which is granted by the gods) is the only way to defeat Ganondorf. Instead of making assumptions like "Samus's lasers arent in Zelda, therefore they can kill Ganondorf," I think it would be best to compare weapons to the most similar equivalent in the Zelda series and go from there. There aren't really any lasers in the Zelda series, but there is the Light Arrow, which is similar to Samus's beams in some ways. It is effective against Ganondorf; however, it usually only stuns him in order for Link to finish him off with the Master Sword, so that wouldn't give Samus the victory. Tomorrow I'll make a note on the bracket post regarding the matchup.

Also, Samus isn't completely out of the tournament, thanks to the losers' bracket.

The onus is on the one defending Ganondorf. We know that Ganondorf has not withstood every single thing in the Zeldaverse because it has never been demonstrated. He has only withstood a handful of things, such as Valoo's flame and a dagger. He's vulnerable to the Megaton Hammer and Biggoron Sword, however. To know if Ganondorf can actually survive anything that lacks the power to repel evil would require omniscience. I'm simply saying that it is illogical to say Ganondorf can survive anything that lacks the power to repel evil because that is what several individuals within the series have said. That itself is the assumption.

Munomario777 · Mar 2, 2015

Dryn said:
The onus is on the one defending Ganondorf. We know that Ganondorf has not withstood every single thing in the Zeldaverse because it has never been demonstrated. He has only withstood a handful of things, such as Valoo's flame and a dagger. He's vulnerable to the Megaton Hammer and Biggoron Sword, however. To know if Ganondorf can actually survive anything that lacks the power to repel evil would require omniscience. I'm simply saying that it is illogical to say Ganondorf can survive anything that lacks the power to repel evil because that is what several individuals within the series have said. That itself is the assumption.

"The Biggoron's Sword is incapable of defeating Ganon's beast form as only the Master Sword can deliver the final blow." - Zelda Wiki
Similarly, the Megaton Hammer is only useful for attacking his tail but, again, cannot deliver the final blow. Given the canon-melding nature of this discussion, there will always be assumptions. Thus, we should go with the conclusion that makes the least (and/or smallest) assumptions.
Assumptions for Samus's Beams NOT DEFEATING Ganon

The energy weapon that is the Light Arrow and the energy weapons that are Samus's beams are similar, and thus have similar effects on Ganon.

Assumptions for Samus's Beams DEFEATING Ganon

Zelda lore is false (!)
Ganon can be defeated by things other than his sole weaknesses
Samus's beams are more powerful than all weapons from the Zelda-verse

That lore one is a biggie, and the former conclusion has fewer assumptions, and the one it does have is much smaller than those of the latter. Thus, my conclusion is that Samus's beams could stun Ganondorf, but Samus would still have trouble delivering the final blow.

Kirby Dragons · Mar 2, 2015

Dryn said:
The onus is on the one defending Ganondorf. We know that Ganondorf has not withstood every single thing in the Zeldaverse because it has never been demonstrated. He has only withstood a handful of things, such as Valoo's flame and a dagger. He's vulnerable to the Megaton Hammer and Biggoron Sword, however. To know if Ganondorf can actually survive anything that lacks the power to repel evil would require omniscience. I'm simply saying that it is illogical to say Ganondorf can survive anything that lacks the power to repel evil because that is what several individuals within the series have said. That itself is the assumption.

Regardless, Ganon can teleport, and could do this to dodge attacks.

Munomario777 said:
VS
FIGHT!!!

Rules:

The battlefield is a ten-mile-wide square arena, with a solid concrete floor and infinitely thick and infinitely high solid steel walls; nothing comes in, nothing comes out. There are no ties; the battle goes on until someone loses.

No ally assistance is allowed here.

Any ammo/use count/etc. that applies in the source game applies here, and each character gets a full stock of one-use items.

No time travel, teleportation, etc. to escape; if a combatant is absent from the arena for more than ten seconds of normal time, they forfeit the match.

Limited-use attacks, techniques, etc. cannot be used to counter attacks that can be used more than them (for instance, if Kirby used a one-time-use invincibility item to protect against one of Rosalina's attacks, she could simply attack again after the invincibility ran out and Kirby would have to do something different; thus, I will be skipping to the second time).

All items, techniques, attacks, etc. the character has used are compiled here.

Kirby may switch between all of his Copy Abilities thanks to the Copy Essence Deluxe; however, if one gets knocked out of him while he's using it, he cannot get it back.

Rosalina gets to use the Lumas (since the character is Rosalina & Luma), and their abilities to transform into celestial bodies such as stars, planets, etc.

If there are any abilities I don't list, it's simply because I didn't feel that they would have a major impact due to either other abilities being superior or similar to the unlisted ability (or they violate the rules listed above).

With the ground rules out of the way, let's delve right into this matchup! First up, Kirby is on the offensive!
's Attack: Inhale
Kirby inhales opponents to copy their abilities.
's Counter: Too Big!
Seeing as how Kirby is only six inches tall, Rosalina would be too big to inhale.
's Counter Counter: Hypernova
Kirby can use the Hypernova ability to suck up large objects such as Rosalina.
's Counter Counter Counter: Teleport
Rosalina can teleport, which would enable her to escape the vortex.

's Attack: Copy Abilities
Kirby has dozens upon dozens of Copy Abilities to attack opponents, from swords and hammers to ice and fire.
's Counter: Shield
Rosalina has a protective force field that she can emit at any time to protect her from damage.

While Kirby has many attacks at his disposal, they're not much use when the opponent has an impenetrable force field.

Next up, Rosalina is on the offensive!
's Attack: Spin
Rosalina can use the power of the Lumas to perform a brief spinning attack to damage opponents.
's Counter: Stone
Kirby's Stone ability allows Kirby to become invulnerable for an indefinite amount of time.
's Counter Counter: Wait it Out
Kirby cannot attack while in Stone, and would have to come out eventually to attack.
's Counter Counter Counter: Wheel
The Wheel Copy Ability allows Kirby to roll around in an invincible wheel form at blazing speeds. Damageable only by spikes, which Rosalina doesn't seem to have.
's Counter Counter Counter Counter: Wait it Out... But With Flight!
Rosalina can fly through the air, and the Wheel cannot jump that high.

's Attack: Star Bits
Rosalina can shoot high-speed Star Bits, which can stun opponents and deal a bit of damage.
's Counter: Inhale
Kirby could easily inhale the Star Bits to negate them.

's Attack: Luma Transform
The Lumas can turn into anything from Mushrooms (to heal Rosalina) and small planets to entire galaxies, stars, and even black holes!
's Counter: N/A
Even if Kirby waited it out with Stone, the black hole/star wouldn't disappear over time, so Kirby would eventually get damaged (plus, the black hole would even suck in his Stone form due to the intense gravity, which Stone succumbs to since it falls in the Kirby games).

SUMMARY: While Kirby has the variety, Rosalina has the raw power, which is just too much for the pink puffball.

WINNER:

vs

Rules are stated above.
Attacker: Rosalina & Luma

's Attack: Star Bits
Rosalina can command her Lumas to spit Star Bits at Kirby.

's Counter: Mirror
Kirby could reflect the Star Bits back at Rosie.

's Counter: Deflect
Rosie could use her wand to deflect the Star Bits.

's Attack: Star Blast
Rosalina can fire massive blasts that can corrupt entire armies.

's Counter: Mirror
Kirby could reflect the blast back at Rosie.

's Counter: Forcefield
Rosie could create a forcefield to stop the blast.

's Attack: Forcefield TK
Rosalina could use telekinesis by creating a forcefield around Kirby and throwing him around.

's Counter: Flight/Squishy Body
If Rosie throws him up, Kirby will just float to safety. If Rosie throws him down, Kirby's squishy body will protect him.

's Attack: Luma Attack
Rosalina can order her Lumas to attack Kirby.

's Counter: Inhale
Kirby could inhale the Lumas and negate the attack. Bye bye, Lumas.

's Attack: Luma Transform
Lumas can turn into stars, galaxies, black holes, etc. and hit Kirby.

's Counter: Inhale/Ghost
Kirby has already inhaled the Lumas, so they can't transform. Even if there were any Lumas left, Kirby could go Ghost and possess a Luma, become a black hole, and suck up Rosie.

's Attack: Grow
Rosalina could grow giant and step on Kirby.

's Counter: Warp Star
Kirby could fly away from Rosalina before she can step on him.

's Counter: Flight/Teleport
Rosie could fly or teleport to chase Kirby.

's Counter: You're Too Slow!
FTL or not, the Warp Star is faster than Rosalina can fly/teleport. Kirby could also ram into Rosie using the star.

's Attack: Spin
Rosalina can stun and damage Kirby with a spin attack.

's Counter: Fly/Run
The spin is short-range, Kirby could easily run or fly away from it.

's Attack: Recreate the Universe
Rosalina could recreate the universe, but without Kirby.

's Counter: Defeat
Kirby has already faced enemies who were going to destroy the universe, but he defeated them before they were able to do so.
Attacker: Kirby

's Attack: Inhale
Kirby's signature move. Being eight inches tall, and since Rosalina is skinny, Kirby is able to inhale Rosalina.

's Counter: Teleport
Rosalina could teleport out of Kirby's mouth.

's Counter: Inhale the Wand
It's assumed that several of Rosalina's powers come from her wand, so if Kirby takes that, she'd be powerless.

's Attack: Hammer
Kirby can hit Rosalina with a powerful hammer.

's Counter: Flight
Rosalina can fly away from the hammer.

's Counter: Warp Star
Kirby can chase Rosie and use his aerial hammer swings.

's Attack: Star Rod
Kirby can fire powerful stars at Rosalina.

's Counter: Nothing
Since Kirby inhaled the wand, Rosie cannot deflect the stars or shield herself.

's Attack: Ultra Sword
Kirby can swing one of several giant weapons at Rosalina.

's Counter: Nothing
The sword is massive, so Rosalina wouldn't be able to dodge it.

's Attack: Sleep
Kirby can crash into Rosalina and put her to sleep.

's Counter: Nothing
Nothing Rosalina can do will stop her from going to sleep.

's Attack: Triple Star
Kirby can fire three powerful stars at Rosalina.

's Counter: Nothing
The stars are controllable and powerful, so Rosie couldn't dodge or tank them. Kirby inhaled the wand, so she can't shield or deflect them.

's Attack: Tornado
Kirby can spin into an invincible cyclone and attack.

's Counter: Nothing
Kirby can fly as a Tornado, so Rosalina couldn't dodge this. Kirby inhaled the wand, so Rosie can't teleport or shield.

's Attack: Crash
Kirby can emit waves of powerful energy and vaporize Rosie.

's Counter: Nothing
Kirby inhaled the wand, so Rosalina couldn't teleport, shield, or deflect.
Summary
Rosalina is powerful, but Kirby is also powerful, and has variety on his side. Rosie's powers come from her wand and the Lumas, and since Kirby can inhale those, she can't do anything about his attacks. The winner is Kirby.

Dastardly Ridleylash · Mar 2, 2015

May as well analyze

vs

.

Ganondorf has strong magical attacks, godlike strength and is invulnurable to all but the most holy of weapons, such as the Master Sword. Ganondorf is 7 feet and 6 and a half inches in height.

Samus Aran is 6 feet, 3 inches tall and has a powered exosuit that can absorb incoming damage. She was trained on conditions far more extreme than those of Earth or Hyrule and has superhuman agility and strength for her size, able to toss around beasts larger than her whole body around with ease.

Ganon has proven himself proficient in swordplay, able to keep up with Link...but keeping up with Link doesn't mean he can keep up with Samus. Considering Samus was trained to the point of basically becoming a supersoldier, I think she'll be a bit faster than Ganondorf. The Ice Beam will freeze Ganondorf in place, the Plasma Beam will burn him and who knows what the Light Beam could do to Ganondorf; Samus just has a lot more versatility in her power than Ganondorf does. Combine the power with enhanced reflexes and mobility like the Space Jump and Morph Ball, and Samus ultimately will win this fight, either by overwhelming Ganondorf with her weaponry or merely by outlasting him and going in for the kill when he's weakened.

Samus just outclasses Ganondorf in any way, really. So

wins, in my opinion.

Now who'd in in a fight between

and

, anyways?

Munomario777 · Mar 2, 2015

Kirby Dragons said:
Regardless, Ganon can teleport, and could do this to dodge attacks.

Agreed.

vs
Rules are stated above.
Attacker: Rosalina & Luma
's Attack: Star Bits
Rosalina can command her Lumas to spit Star Bits at Kirby.
's Counter: Mirror
Kirby could reflect the Star Bits back at Rosie.
's Counter: Deflect
Rosie could use her wand to deflect the Star Bits.

Agreed.

's Attack: Star Blast
Rosalina can fire massive blasts that can corrupt entire armies.
's Counter: Mirror
Kirby could reflect the blast back at Rosie.
's Counter: Forcefield
Rosie could create a forcefield to stop the blast.

Agreed.

's Attack: Forcefield TK
Rosalina could use telekinesis by creating a forcefield around Kirby and throwing him around.
's Counter: Flight/Squishy Body
If Rosie throws him up, Kirby will just float to safety. If Rosie throws him down, Kirby's squishy body will protect him.

Agreed.

's Attack: Luma Attack
Rosalina can order her Lumas to attack Kirby.
's Counter: Inhale
Kirby could inhale the Lumas and negate the attack. Bye bye, Lumas.

Agreed, but Rosalina could easily make/summon more (plus, Kirby can't inhale while he's using a Copy Ability).

's Attack: Luma Transform
Lumas can turn into stars, galaxies, black holes, etc. and hit Kirby.
's Counter: Inhale/Ghost
Kirby has already inhaled the Lumas, so they can't transform. Even if there were any Lumas left, Kirby could go Ghost and possess a Luma, become a black hole, and suck up Rosie.

Again, Rosalina could simply summon more Lumas. Rosalina is immune to black holes (and other celestial objects), as demonstrated multiple times throughout Galaxy. Also, since Ghost Kirby cannot pass through solid objects, Rosalina could make the aforementioned forcefield telekinesis to hold Kirby in place while the Luma turns into a black hole and sucks in Kirby.

's Attack: Grow
Rosalina could grow giant and step on Kirby.
's Counter: Warp Star
Kirby could fly away from Rosalina before she can step on him.
's Counter: Flight/Teleport
Rosie could fly or teleport to chase Kirby.
's Counter: You're Too Slow!
FTL or not, the Warp Star is faster than Rosalina can fly/teleport. Kirby could also ram into Rosie using the star.

Agreed, but Rosalina wouldn't really need to grow in order to step on Kirby, since he's only about six inches tall.

's Attack: Spin
Rosalina can stun and damage Kirby with a spin attack.
's Counter: Fly/Run
The spin is short-range, Kirby could easily run or fly away from it.

Agreed.

's Attack: Recreate the Universe
Rosalina could recreate the universe, but without Kirby.
's Counter: Defeat
Kirby has already faced enemies who were going to destroy the universe, but he defeated them before they were able to do so.

How does that enable him to survive the rebirth of the universe? You'll need to specify how he defeats Rosalina.

Attacker:

Kirby
's Attack: Inhale
Kirby's signature move. Being eight inches tall, and since Rosalina is skinny, Kirby is able to inhale Rosalina.
's Counter: Teleport
Rosalina could teleport out of Kirby's mouth.
's Counter: Inhale the Wand
It's assumed that several of Rosalina's powers come from her wand, so if Kirby takes that, she'd be powerless.

Good point, but she still has the Lumas (plus, she could teleport/use a force field to keep the wand out of Kirby's grasp).

's Attack: Hammer
Kirby can hit Rosalina with a powerful hammer.
's Counter: Flight
Rosalina can fly away from the hammer.
's Counter: Warp Star
Kirby can chase Rosie and use his aerial hammer swings.

Rosalina has the protective barrier.

's Attack: Star Rod
Kirby can fire powerful stars at Rosalina.
's Counter: Nothing
Since Kirby inhaled the wand, Rosie cannot deflect the stars or shield herself.

Since Rosalina protected the wand via teleportation/barrier, she can still deflect them.

's Attack: Ultra Sword
Kirby can swing one of several giant weapons at Rosalina.
's Counter: Nothing
The sword is massive, so Rosalina wouldn't be able to dodge it.

Nothing is too large to dodge if you can teleport.

's Attack: Sleep
Kirby can crash into Rosalina and put her to sleep.
's Counter: Nothing
Nothing Rosalina can do will stop her from going to sleep.

The crashing is only in Air Ride, and the majority of the games that include the Sleep ability put Kirby to sleep, making him very vulnerable; thus, we should go with the majority here.

's Attack: Triple Star
Kirby can fire three powerful stars at Rosalina.
's Counter: Nothing
The stars are controllable and powerful, so Rosie couldn't dodge or tank them. Kirby inhaled the wand, so she can't shield or deflect them.

Since Rosalina protected the wand via teleportation/barrier, she can still deflect them. Nothing is too large to dodge if you can teleport.

's Attack: Tornado
Kirby can spin into an invincible cyclone and attack.
's Counter: Nothing
Kirby can fly as a Tornado, so Rosalina couldn't dodge this. Kirby inhaled the wand, so Rosie can't teleport or shield.

Since Rosalina protected the wand via teleportation/barrier, she can still teleport and shield.

's Attack: Crash
Kirby can emit waves of powerful energy and vaporize Rosie.
's Counter: Nothing
Kirby inhaled the wand, so Rosalina couldn't teleport, shield, or deflect.

Since Rosalina protected the wand via teleportation/barrier, she can still teleport, deflect, and shield.

Summary

Rosalina is powerful, but Kirby is also powerful, and has variety on his side. Rosie's powers come from her wand and the Lumas, and since Kirby can inhale those, she can't do anything about his attacks. The winner is Kirby.

I disagree, for reasons stated above.

Dastardly Ridleylash said:
May as well analyze vs .

Ganondorf has strong magical attacks, godlike strength and is invulnurable to all but the most holy of weapons, such as the Master Sword. Ganondorf is 7 feet and 6 and a half inches in height.

Samus Aran is 6 feet, 3 inches tall and has a powered exosuit that can absorb incoming damage. She was trained on conditions far more extreme than those of Earth or Hyrule and has superhuman agility and strength for her size, able to toss around beasts larger than her whole body around with ease.

Ganon has proven himself proficient in swordplay, able to keep up with Link...but keeping up with Link doesn't mean he can keep up with Samus. Considering Samus was trained to the point of basically becoming a supersoldier, I think she'll be a bit faster than Ganondorf. The Ice Beam will freeze Ganondorf in place, the Plasma Beam will burn him and who knows what the Light Beam could do to Ganondorf; Samus just has a lot more versatility in her power than Ganondorf does. Combine the power with enhanced reflexes and mobility like the Space Jump and Morph Ball, and Samus ultimately will win this fight, either by overwhelming Ganondorf with her weaponry or merely by outlasting him and going in for the kill when he's weakened.

Samus just outclasses Ganondorf in any way, really. So wins, in my opinion.

Now who'd in in a fight betweenand , anyways?

Well, according to Zelda lore, Ganon can only be defeated via holy weapons/weapons with the Power to Repel Evil. Seeing as how Samus has neither (except perhaps the Light Beam @Dryn mentioned, but that's more comparable to the Light Arrow in Zelda, which only stuns Ganon) and Ganon has so many powerful attacks as-is, I'm giving this round to Ganon.

As for

VS

, I'm not sure. I'm not knowledgeable about either game, so I couldn't say honestly. It could very well come up in the losers' bracket, though.

Kirby Dragons · Mar 2, 2015

Comments in the quote.

Munomario777 said:
Agreed.

Agreed.

Agreed.

Agreed.

Agreed, but Rosalina could easily make/summon more (plus, Kirby can't inhale while he's using a Copy Ability).
Kirby can discard his Copy Abilities whenever he wants. They bounce around for a bit, so he can discard one, do some inhalation, then get the Copy Ability back before it disappears.

Again, Rosalina could simply summon more Lumas. Rosalina is immune to black holes (and other celestial objects), as demonstrated multiple times throughout Galaxy. Also, since Ghost Kirby cannot pass through solid objects, Rosalina could make the aforementioned forcefield telekinesis to hold Kirby in place while the Luma turns into a black hole and sucks in Kirby.
You can't suck someone in if they're in a forcefield. And since there's no prior knowledge, Rosa would probably assume that Kirby could pass through solid objects and would not use the forcefield TK.

Agreed, but Rosalina wouldn't really need to grow in order to step on Kirby, since he's only about six inches tall.
Kirby's eight inches.

Agreed.

How does that enable him to survive the rebirth of the universe? You'll need to specify how he defeats Rosalina.
Reasons I specified when Kirby gets on the offense.

Good point, but she still has the Lumas (plus, she could teleport/use a force field to keep the wand out of Kirby's grasp).
Kirby can inhale any Lumas that Rosa creates, so they wouldn't work. Rosalina can't stay in her forcefield forever, or she can't attack. Once she drops her forcefield, Kirby inhales the wand, she's powerless. She creates Lumas, Kirby inhales them.

The crashing is only in Air Ride, and the majority of the games that include the Sleep ability put Kirby to sleep, making him very vulnerable; thus, we should go with the majority here.
And what about the rule: "All items, techniques, attacks, etc. the character has used are compiled here."

I disagree, for reasons stated above.

Since Rosalina protected the wand via teleportation/barrier, she can still teleport, deflect, and shield.
Since Rosalina protected the wand via teleportation/barrier, she can still teleport and shield.
Since Rosalina protected the wand via teleportation/barrier, she can still deflect them. Nothing is too large to dodge if you can teleport.
Nothing is too large to dodge if you can teleport.
Since Rosalina protected the wand via teleportation/barrier, she can still deflect them.
Rosalina has the protective barrier.

Reason I separated all of these is because of this video. (18:26)

Kirby could just do that to Rosa. It's not a projectile, so she couldn't deflect it. And you saw how fast the Warp Star flew, Rosalina can't teleport to avoid it. A forcefield wouldn't protect her from this, either.

The Stoopid Unikorn · Mar 2, 2015

Kirby Dragons said:
Regardless, Ganon can teleport, and could do this to dodge attacks.

vs
Rules are stated above.
Attacker: Rosalina & Luma
's Attack: Star Bits
Rosalina can command her Lumas to spit Star Bits at Kirby.
's Counter: Mirror
Kirby could reflect the Star Bits back at Rosie.
's Counter: Deflect
Rosie could use her wand to deflect the Star Bits.

's Attack: Star Blast
Rosalina can fire massive blasts that can corrupt entire armies.
's Counter: Mirror
Kirby could reflect the blast back at Rosie.
's Counter: Forcefield
Rosie could create a forcefield to stop the blast.

's Attack: Forcefield TK
Rosalina could use telekinesis by creating a forcefield around Kirby and throwing him around.
's Counter: Flight/Squishy Body
If Rosie throws him up, Kirby will just float to safety. If Rosie throws him down, Kirby's squishy body will protect him.

's Attack: Luma Attack
Rosalina can order her Lumas to attack Kirby.
's Counter: Inhale
Kirby could inhale the Lumas and negate the attack. Bye bye, Lumas.

's Attack: Luma Transform
Lumas can turn into stars, galaxies, black holes, etc. and hit Kirby.
's Counter: Inhale/Ghost
Kirby has already inhaled the Lumas, so they can't transform. Even if there were any Lumas left, Kirby could go Ghost and possess a Luma, become a black hole, and suck up Rosie.

's Attack: Grow
Rosalina could grow giant and step on Kirby.
's Counter: Warp Star
Kirby could fly away from Rosalina before she can step on him.
's Counter: Flight/Teleport
Rosie could fly or teleport to chase Kirby.
's Counter: You're Too Slow!
FTL or not, the Warp Star is faster than Rosalina can fly/teleport. Kirby could also ram into Rosie using the star.

's Attack: Spin
Rosalina can stun and damage Kirby with a spin attack.
's Counter: Fly/Run
The spin is short-range, Kirby could easily run or fly away from it.

's Attack: Recreate the Universe
Rosalina could recreate the universe, but without Kirby.
's Counter: Defeat
Kirby has already faced enemies who were going to destroy the universe, but he defeated them before they were able to do so.
Attacker: Kirby
's Attack: Inhale
Kirby's signature move. Being eight inches tall, and since Rosalina is skinny, Kirby is able to inhale Rosalina.
's Counter: Teleport
Rosalina could teleport out of Kirby's mouth.
's Counter: Inhale the Wand
It's assumed that several of Rosalina's powers come from her wand, so if Kirby takes that, she'd be powerless.

's Attack: Hammer
Kirby can hit Rosalina with a powerful hammer.
's Counter: Flight
Rosalina can fly away from the hammer.
's Counter: Warp Star
Kirby can chase Rosie and use his aerial hammer swings.

's Attack: Star Rod
Kirby can fire powerful stars at Rosalina.
's Counter: Nothing
Since Kirby inhaled the wand, Rosie cannot deflect the stars or shield herself.

's Attack: Ultra Sword
Kirby can swing one of several giant weapons at Rosalina.
's Counter: Nothing
The sword is massive, so Rosalina wouldn't be able to dodge it.

's Attack: Sleep
Kirby can crash into Rosalina and put her to sleep.
's Counter: Nothing
Nothing Rosalina can do will stop her from going to sleep.

's Attack: Triple Star
Kirby can fire three powerful stars at Rosalina.
's Counter: Nothing
The stars are controllable and powerful, so Rosie couldn't dodge or tank them. Kirby inhaled the wand, so she can't shield or deflect them.

's Attack: Tornado
Kirby can spin into an invincible cyclone and attack.
's Counter: Nothing
Kirby can fly as a Tornado, so Rosalina couldn't dodge this. Kirby inhaled the wand, so Rosie can't teleport or shield.

's Attack: Crash
Kirby can emit waves of powerful energy and vaporize Rosie.
's Counter: Nothing
Kirby inhaled the wand, so Rosalina couldn't teleport, shield, or deflect.
Summary
Rosalina is powerful, but Kirby is also powerful, and has variety on his side. Rosie's powers come from her wand and the Lumas, and since Kirby can inhale those, she can't do anything about his attacks. The winner is Kirby.

While your version does have more attacks, Rosalina has that force field in the Galaxy games that even Mario, the guy who crushed spaceships with his infamous Ground Pound (Super Mario Land), couldn't break. Maybe there could be an attack allowing Kirby to destroy that force field, but whether or not he can, the fight should be much, much harder for Kirby because of that force field.

Kirby Dragons · Mar 2, 2015

The Star Rod also blew up a large chunk of the moon, so yeah.

The Stoopid Unikorn · Mar 2, 2015

I guess until we figure out how much Rosa's force field can protect her, we'll see a lot of arguing here.

Munomario777 · Mar 2, 2015

Kirby Dragons said:
Comments in the quote.

Kirby can discard his Copy Abilities whenever he wants. They bounce around for a bit, so he can discard one, do some inhalation, then get the Copy Ability back before it disappears.
It still takes a second, and leaves Kirby open for a second while he inhales; plus, Rosalina could then use her telekinesis to move either Kirby away from the discarded ability or vice-versa.

You can't suck someone in if they're in a forcefield. And since there's no prior knowledge, Rosa would probably assume that Kirby could pass through solid objects and would not use the forcefield TK.
Well, if Kirby tries to escape the black hole (which is impossible anyway since even light can't escape), Rosalina would naturally make a force field to keep him in place, move the force field to the event horizon (AKA the dead zone of a black hole), and release.

Kirby's eight inches.
Same principle applies.

Reasons I specified when Kirby gets on the offense.
...Which I disproved.

Kirby can inhale any Lumas that Rosa creates, so they wouldn't work. Rosalina can't stay in her forcefield forever, or she can't attack. Once she drops her forcefield, Kirby inhales the wand, she's powerless. She creates Lumas, Kirby inhales them.
If Rosalina creates hundreds of Lumas (or just one in front of Kirby and one behind, since Kirby can't rotate while inhaling), they could easily overwhelm Kirby. As for the force field, she could just put it up again when Kirby goes to inhale, or just keep her distance (which she could easily do since the Lumas can travel long distances before transforming).

And what about the rule: "All items, techniques, attacks, etc. the character has used are compiled here."
I know. Sleep is an attack Kirby has used. The properties of said attack vary from game to game, which is a contradiction. Thus, I'm using the properties most games use, which also happen to not be a spinoff and to be the most recent games. In other words, main series/most recent/many games > spinoff/old/one game when it comes to canonicity. Either way, though,

Since Rosalina protected the wand via teleportation/barrier, she can still teleport, dReason I separated all of these is because of this video. (18:26)

Kirby could just do that to Rosa. It's not a projectile, so she couldn't deflect it. And you saw how fast the Warp Star flew, Rosalina can't teleport to avoid it. A forcefield wouldn't protect her from this, either.

Again, Rosalina has the protective barrier, which protects Rosalina against even stone-crushing attacks (i.e. Mario's ground pound). Aside from the fact that it seems like the force field may always be active in Galaxy (only appearing when it blocks an attack), Rosalina has the reaction time for this, shown by the fact that she is able to position her wand perfectly to reflect high-speed Star Bits, let alone create a simple barrier/teleporting to dodge a Warp Star traveling at a similar speed to said Star Bits.

Kirby Dragons said:
The Star Rod also blew up a large chunk of the moon, so yeah.

It looks like that's more of a result of the boss being defeated than the Star Rod being used. Reminds me of the common misconception that the Falcon Punch blew up that galaxy or whatever in the F-Zero anime, when it was really just something else exploding.

Crystanium · Mar 2, 2015

Munomario777 said:
"The Biggoron's Sword is incapable of defeating Ganon's beast form as only the Master Sword can deliver the final blow." - Zelda Wiki
Similarly, the Megaton Hammer is only useful for attacking his tail but, again, cannot deliver the final blow. Given the canon-melding nature of this discussion, there will always be assumptions. Thus, we should go with the conclusion that makes the least (and/or smallest) assumptions.
Assumptions for Samus's Beams NOT DEFEATING Ganon

The energy weapon that is the Light Arrow and the energy weapons that are Samus's beams are similar, and thus have similar effects on Ganon.

Assumptions for Samus's Beams DEFEATING Ganon

Zelda lore is false (!)

Ganon can be defeated by things other than his sole weaknesses

Samus's beams are more powerful than all weapons from the Zelda-verse

That lore one is a biggie, and the former conclusion has fewer assumptions, and the one it does have is much smaller than those of the latter. Thus, my conclusion is that Samus's beams could stun Ganondorf, but Samus would still have trouble delivering the final blow.

I would argue that the reason why the Biggoron Sword does not deliver the final blow is for plot reasons. The Master Sword is supposed to be the sword that slays Ganondorf in most games, but we know there are other games where the Master Sword is not used to defeat Ganondorf, showing it is not the only one capable of doing that.

Zelda lore is misinformed. Ganondorf can be easily defeated by weapons are are most effective against him. Perhaps you can prove to me that temperatures reaching 3,000C would do nothing to Ganondorf, or beams penetrating defenses like FG-1,000 or Fumbleye's psychic barrier, where the power beam isn't able to penetrate.

Kirby Dragons said:
Regardless, Ganon can teleport, and could do this to dodge attacks.

So?

During cut-scene:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54-EE5vz5zM&t=650s

During game play:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQot6Hgr7tI&t=305s

That also reminds me, Samus has sense move, which not only allows her to counter effectively, but also instantly charge her beams. Accel Charge alone, when Samus has them all in her possession, takes only milliseconds to charge. But honestly, Desbrachians look way more impressive in combat than Ganondorf ever has.

Kirby Dragons said:
The Star Rod also blew up a large chunk of the moon, so yeah.

That wasn't the Star Rod's doing. Considering this is a moon in a different galaxy, we cannot compare this to how much energy it would require to destroy a chunk of our moon.

Munomario777 · Mar 2, 2015

Dryn said:
I would argue that the reason why the Biggoron Sword does not deliver the final blow is for plot reasons. The Master Sword is supposed to be the sword that slays Ganondorf in most games, but we know there are other games where the Master Sword is not used to defeat Ganondorf, showing it is not the only one capable of doing that.

OR maybe because Ganon just can't be defeated by the Biggoron Sword because it's not equipped with the holy power? In which games is Ganon defeated without the Master Sword by the way? I assume you mean Four Swords, but that's just because the Four Sword shares the same holy properties as the Master Sword.

Zelda lore is misinformed. Ganondorf can be easily defeated by weapons are are most effective against him. Perhaps you can prove to me that temperatures reaching 3,000C would do nothing to Ganondorf, or beams penetrating defenses like FG-1,000 or Fumbleye's psychic barrier, where the power beam isn't able to penetrate.

...I'm sorry? If the core lore of the Zelda series is false, then this whole discussion practically falls apart, since story and lore are out the window. There's no evidence that Zelda lore is misinformed; therefore, we don't assume it is misinformed and treat it as true. I can prove it to you via the core truth of the Zelda series specifically stating throughout the series that Ganondorf can only be defeated by the power to repel evil, as well as nothing else working in every Ganon battle throughout the series.

So?

During cut-scene:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54-EE5vz5zM&t=650s

During game play:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQot6Hgr7tI&t=305s

That enemy only teleported a few times, allowing Samus to hit it; Ganondorf could teleport much more frequently and across a bigger distance to dodge Samus's shots instead of being a sitting duck. I'm not sure what's happening in the cutscene footage; could you please clarify?

That also reminds me, Samus has sense move, which not only allows her to counter effectively, but also instantly charge her beams. Accel Charge alone, when Samus has them all in her possession, takes only milliseconds to charge. But honestly, Desbrachians look way more impressive in combat than Ganondorf ever has.

Hmm, interesting.

That wasn't the Star Rod's doing. Considering this is a moon in a different galaxy, we cannot compare this to how much energy it would require to destroy a chunk of our moon.

Agreed.

Kirby Dragons · Mar 2, 2015

Munomario777 said:
Kirby can discard his Copy Abilities whenever he wants. They bounce around for a bit, so he can discard one, do some inhalation, then get the Copy Ability back before it disappears.
It still takes a second, and leaves Kirby open for a second while he inhales; plus, Rosalina could then use her telekinesis to move either Kirby away from the discarded ability or vice-versa.
Putting him in a forcefield would protect him from whatever he's trying to inhale, so doing this wouldn't really have a result, other than the Copy Ability disappearing. Kirby can get another one to replace it.

You can't suck someone in if they're in a forcefield. And since there's no prior knowledge, Rosa would probably assume that Kirby could pass through solid objects and would not use the forcefield TK.
Well, if Kirby tries to escape the black hole (which is impossible anyway since even light can't escape), Rosalina would naturally make a force field to keep him in place, move the force field to the event horizon (AKA the dead zone of a black hole), and release.
Kirby does have one thing that can stop the black hole: Ultra Sword. It freezes time right before it's used, and black holes can't suck up time. If Rosie tries the forcefield TK technique while Kirby has no ability, he'll have time to switch to US and take out Rosa. If Kirby's in his Ghost form, he can possess the black hole, it's made of Lumas.

Kirby's eight inches.
Same principle applies.

Reasons I specified when Kirby gets on the offense.
...Which I disproved.
And I'm disproving the disproof.

Kirby can inhale any Lumas that Rosa creates, so they wouldn't work. Rosalina can't stay in her forcefield forever, or she can't attack. Once she drops her forcefield, Kirby inhales the wand, she's powerless. She creates Lumas, Kirby inhales them.
If Rosalina creates hundreds of Lumas (or just one in front of Kirby and one behind, since Kirby can't rotate while inhaling), they could easily overwhelm Kirby. As for the force field, she could just put it up again when Kirby goes to inhale, or just keep her distance (which she could easily do since the Lumas can travel long distances before transforming).
She can't keep putting it up over and over and over, or she can't do anything. A single Luma won't overwhelm Kirby. And Mike is a three-use attack, she can hurt Rosalina with it thrice if she isn't shielded, and vaporize the Lumas.

And what about the rule: "All items, techniques, attacks, etc. the character has used are compiled here."
I know. Sleep is an attack Kirby has used. The properties of said attack vary from game to game, which is a contradiction. Thus, I'm using the properties most games use, which also happen to not be a spinoff and to be the most recent games. In other words, main series/most recent/many games > spinoff/old/one game when it comes to canonicity. Either way, though,
Sleep isn't even an attack, it does no damage. The thing from KAR is a technique. Therefore, Kirby can use it. And the thing Sleep does in most games is also done in KAR, putting others to sleep is an addition. No contradiction.

Again, Rosalina has the protective barrier, which protects Rosalina against even stone-crushing attacks (i.e. Mario's ground pound). Aside from the fact that it seems like the force field may always be active in Galaxy (only appearing when it blocks an attack), Rosalina has the reaction time for this, shown by the fact that she is able to position her wand perfectly to reflect high-speed Star Bits, let alone create a simple barrier/teleporting to dodge a Warp Star traveling at a similar speed to said Star Bits.
I've seen Rosie teleport, she slowly fades away. A shield MIGHT stop Stone, but it broke through the Dedede Stone, which could surpass the spaceship.

It looks like that's more of a result of the boss being defeated than the Star Rod being used. Reminds me of the common misconception that the Falcon Punch blew up that galaxy or whatever in the F-Zero anime, when it was really just something else exploding.
The force of the Star Rod created an explosion when Nightmare was defeated, and the explosion blew up the moon. The moonbusting wouldn't have happened without the Star Rod.

And I haven't brought up the Megaton Punch, which is almost planetbusting. There's no way Rosa can shield that.

Munomario777 · Mar 2, 2015

Kirby Dragons said:
Putting him in a forcefield would protect him from whatever he's trying to inhale, so doing this wouldn't really have a result, other than the Copy Ability disappearing. Kirby can get another one to replace it.
As in a telekinesis force field like the one she uses on Mario in Galaxy when he falls off of the Observatory, not the protective ones Rosalina uses. Either way, she could move the Copy Ability instead, which Kirby can't replace, by the way, since he only has one of each Ability.

Kirby does have one thing that can stop the black hole: Ultra Sword. It freezes time right before it's used, and black holes can't suck up time. If Rosie tries the forcefield TK technique while Kirby has no ability, he'll have time to switch to US and take out Rosa. If Kirby's in his Ghost form, he can possess the black hole, it's made of Lumas.
There's no time in a black hole to begin with. Either way, though, Kirby stays still while using the Ultra Sword, and time unfreezes afterwards, and guess what? He's still in the black hole. I don't think the black hole would be sentient, but either way, Ghost Kirby would be sucked in before he could possess the black hole.

And I'm disproving the disproof.
And I'm disproving the disproof of the disproof. (Mind blown! )

She can't keep putting it up over and over and over, or she can't do anything. A single Luma won't overwhelm Kirby. And Mike is a three-use attack, she can hurt Rosalina with it thrice if she isn't shielded, and vaporize the Lumas.
She can attack between shielding the second Kirby stops inhaling. As for the Lumas, I'm saying that Kirby can't inhale two Lumas on either side of him at the same time. Rosalina could summon one Luma in front of and one behind Kirby. While Kirby inhales the one in front, the one behind turns into a black hole and kills Kirby.

Sleep isn't even an attack, it does no damage. The thing from KAR is a technique. Therefore, Kirby can use it. And the thing Sleep does in most games is also done in KAR, putting others to sleep is an addition. No contradiction.
That's what the "etc." ("et cetera") is for. Copy Abilities are included in the "etc.", and Sleep from the main games and from Air Ride are under the same name, they're the same Copy Ability, and in the main, non-spinoff, and majority of the games, it is absolutely useless. I'm going with the useless definition. Either way, though, the Lumas could simply attack while Rosalina is asleep (the effect only lasts for five seconds).

I've seen Rosie teleport, she slowly fades away. A shield MIGHT stop Stone, but it broke through the Dedede Stone, which could surpass the spaceship.
This looks like a pretty quick teleport to me (not to mention her dodge rolls in Smash). As for the shield, again, Mario's Ground Pound breaks through solid stone like Kirby's Stone does, and Rosalina still blocks it.

The force of the Star Rod created an explosion when Nightmare was defeated, and the explosion blew up the moon. The moonbusting wouldn't have happened without the Star Rod.
Just because Kirby caused Nightmare to explode with his weapon doesn't mean he can create an explosion whenever he wants to. That's like saying that someone pressing a nuke button means they can make a nuke happen without the button.

And I haven't brought up the Megaton Punch, which is almost planetbusting. There's no way Rosa can shield that.
She could fly above the earthquake/teleport out of the way, though.

Crystanium · Mar 2, 2015

Munomario777 said:
OR maybe because Ganon just can't be defeated by the Biggoron Sword because it's not equipped with the holy power? In which games is Ganon defeated without the Master Sword by the way? I assume you mean Four Swords, but that's just because the Four Sword shares the same holy properties as the Master Sword.

The Magical Sword, which isn't even necessary in The Legend of Zelda, can defeat Ganondorf. While Soulcalibur is non-canon, the description about the Magical Sword is that it's good at penetrating defenses. So is the wave beam and plasma beam.

Munomario777 said:
...I'm sorry? If the core lore of the Zelda series is false, then this whole discussion practically falls apart, since story and lore are out the window. There's no evidence that Zelda lore is misinformed; therefore, we don't assume it is misinformed and treat it as true. I can prove it to you via the core truth of the Zelda series specifically stating throughout the series that Ganondorf can only be defeated by the power to repel evil, as well as nothing else working in every Ganon battle throughout the series.

The evidence that it is misinformed is that Ganondorf has never dealt with these types of weapons. Again, unless Ganondorf has been hit by every type of attack in the Zeldaverse and survived, the claim cannot be proved. It can only be extrapolated, which statistically, would make it dubious.

Munomario777 said:
That enemy only teleported a few times, allowing Samus to hit it; Ganondorf could teleport much more frequently and across a bigger distance to dodge Samus's shots instead of being a sitting duck. I'm not sure what's happening in the cutscene footage; could you please clarify?

A few times, yes, but even Ganondorf can be hit by arrows, even though he's capable of teleportation. Simply put, it doesn't matter if Ganondorf can teleport. Not only has Samus dealt with that before, she's dealt with fast characters like Serris, who reach the same top speed she's capable of traveling.

Munomario777 · Mar 2, 2015

Dryn said:
The Magical Sword, which isn't even necessary in The Legend of Zelda, can defeat Ganondorf. While Soulcalibur is non-canon, the description about the Magical Sword is that it's good at penetrating defenses. So is the wave beam and plasma beam.

Ah, I see. Still, the "Magical" in the name implies that it has the same magical powers as the Master Sword, making it able to defeat Ganon, which Samus's beams don't have.

The evidence that it is misinformed is that Ganondorf has never dealt with these types of weapons. Again, unless Ganondorf has been hit by every type of attack in the Zeldaverse and survived, the claim cannot be proved. It can only be extrapolated, which statistically, would make it dubious.

Just because Ganon hasn't been attacked by everything ever doesn't mean that it's false that he can only be harmed by specific things. For the sake of this discussion not going around in circles like this, I think we should go with the theory that every game takes place in one universe so that these sorts of arguments don't go on this long. In that case, the statement in Zelda lore includes all weapons from all series, and we can end the discussion here. Regardless of how Samus fares against Ganon, she's still in the tournament via the losers' bracket anyway.

A few times, yes, but even Ganondorf can be hit by arrows, even though he's capable of teleportation. Simply put, it doesn't matter if Ganondorf can teleport. Not only has Samus dealt with that before, she's dealt with fast characters like Serris, who reach the same top speed she's capable of traveling.

Light arrows, made of light and therefore moving at the speed thereof. He doesn't bother to dodge regular arrows because they have no effect on him. Also, if Ganon teleported to dodge every attack, the fight would be impossible, making this a case of gameplay-story segregation.

If you can prove that Ganon can be hurt by Samus's weapons, I'll change my stance. For now, though, I'm staying on Ganon's side.

Nerdicon · Mar 2, 2015

Munomario777 said:
VS
FIGHT!!!

Rules:

The battlefield is a ten-mile-wide square arena, with a solid concrete floor and infinitely thick and infinitely high solid steel walls; nothing comes in, nothing comes out. There are no ties; the battle goes on until someone loses.

No ally assistance is allowed here.

Any ammo/use count/etc. that applies in the source game applies here, and each character gets a full stock of one-use items.

No time travel, teleportation, etc. to escape; if a combatant is absent from the arena for more than ten seconds of normal time, they forfeit the match.

Limited-use attacks, techniques, etc. cannot be used to counter attacks that can be used more than them (for instance, if Kirby used a one-time-use invincibility item to protect against one of Rosalina's attacks, she could simply attack again after the invincibility ran out and Kirby would have to do something different; thus, I will be skipping to the second time).

All items, techniques, attacks, etc. the character has used are compiled here.

Kirby may switch between all of his Copy Abilities thanks to the Copy Essence Deluxe; however, if one gets knocked out of him while he's using it, he cannot get it back.

Rosalina gets to use the Lumas (since the character is Rosalina & Luma), and their abilities to transform into celestial bodies such as stars, planets, etc.

If there are any abilities I don't list, it's simply because I didn't feel that they would have a major impact due to either other abilities being superior or similar to the unlisted ability (or they violate the rules listed above).

With the ground rules out of the way, let's delve right into this matchup! First up, Kirby is on the offensive!
's Attack: Inhale
Kirby inhales opponents to copy their abilities.
's Counter: Too Big!
Seeing as how Kirby is only six inches tall, Rosalina would be too big to inhale.
's Counter Counter: Hypernova
Kirby can use the Hypernova ability to suck up large objects such as Rosalina.
's Counter Counter Counter: Teleport
Rosalina can teleport, which would enable her to escape the vortex.

's Attack: Copy Abilities
Kirby has dozens upon dozens of Copy Abilities to attack opponents, from swords and hammers to ice and fire.
's Counter: Shield
Rosalina has a protective force field that she can emit at any time to protect her from damage.

While Kirby has many attacks at his disposal, they're not much use when the opponent has an impenetrable force field.

Next up, Rosalina is on the offensive!
's Attack: Spin
Rosalina can use the power of the Lumas to perform a brief spinning attack to damage opponents.
's Counter: Stone
Kirby's Stone ability allows Kirby to become invulnerable for an indefinite amount of time.
's Counter Counter: Wait it Out
Kirby cannot attack while in Stone, and would have to come out eventually to attack.
's Counter Counter Counter: Wheel
The Wheel Copy Ability allows Kirby to roll around in an invincible wheel form at blazing speeds. Damageable only by spikes, which Rosalina doesn't seem to have.
's Counter Counter Counter Counter: Wait it Out... But With Flight!
Rosalina can fly through the air, and the Wheel cannot jump that high.

's Attack: Star Bits
Rosalina can shoot high-speed Star Bits, which can stun opponents and deal a bit of damage.
's Counter: Inhale
Kirby could easily inhale the Star Bits to negate them.

's Attack: Luma Transform
The Lumas can turn into anything from Mushrooms (to heal Rosalina) and small planets to entire galaxies, stars, and even black holes!
's Counter: N/A
Even if Kirby waited it out with Stone, the black hole/star wouldn't disappear over time, so Kirby would eventually get damaged (plus, the black hole would even suck in his Stone form due to the intense gravity, which Stone succumbs to since it falls in the Kirby games).

SUMMARY: While Kirby has the variety, Rosalina has the raw power, which is just too much for the pink puffball.

WINNER:

Meh.
I disagree at least in the way this is presented.
Kirby can use the copy ability to copy Rosalina's ability
He can use Ghost to control the Lumas
While possessing someone with ghost Kirby is invincible
Stone has been shown on several occasions to be immune to black holes
The Kirby 64 incarnation of stone could attack Rosalina
Kirby could use the magic paintbrush with wheel to fly with it
Rosalina throws up her forcefield on reaction and only to physical attacks, plenty of Kirby's attacks would catch her off guard
Hypernova
Similarly to how you presented stone, Kirby could wait out Rosalina's shield if that's what it comes down to

Kirby Dragons said:
Regardless, Ganon can teleport, and could do this to dodge attacks.

vs
Rules are stated above.
Attacker: Rosalina & Luma
's Attack: Star Bits
Rosalina can command her Lumas to spit Star Bits at Kirby.
's Counter: Mirror
Kirby could reflect the Star Bits back at Rosie.
's Counter: Deflect
Rosie could use her wand to deflect the Star Bits.

's Attack: Star Blast
Rosalina can fire massive blasts that can corrupt entire armies.
's Counter: Mirror
Kirby could reflect the blast back at Rosie.
's Counter: Forcefield
Rosie could create a forcefield to stop the blast.

's Attack: Forcefield TK
Rosalina could use telekinesis by creating a forcefield around Kirby and throwing him around.
's Counter: Flight/Squishy Body
If Rosie throws him up, Kirby will just float to safety. If Rosie throws him down, Kirby's squishy body will protect him.

's Attack: Luma Attack
Rosalina can order her Lumas to attack Kirby.
's Counter: Inhale
Kirby could inhale the Lumas and negate the attack. Bye bye, Lumas.

's Attack: Luma Transform
Lumas can turn into stars, galaxies, black holes, etc. and hit Kirby.
's Counter: Inhale/Ghost
Kirby has already inhaled the Lumas, so they can't transform. Even if there were any Lumas left, Kirby could go Ghost and possess a Luma, become a black hole, and suck up Rosie.

's Attack: Grow
Rosalina could grow giant and step on Kirby.
's Counter: Warp Star
Kirby could fly away from Rosalina before she can step on him.
's Counter: Flight/Teleport
Rosie could fly or teleport to chase Kirby.
's Counter: You're Too Slow!
FTL or not, the Warp Star is faster than Rosalina can fly/teleport. Kirby could also ram into Rosie using the star.

's Attack: Spin
Rosalina can stun and damage Kirby with a spin attack.
's Counter: Fly/Run
The spin is short-range, Kirby could easily run or fly away from it.

's Attack: Recreate the Universe
Rosalina could recreate the universe, but without Kirby.
's Counter: Defeat
Kirby has already faced enemies who were going to destroy the universe, but he defeated them before they were able to do so.
Attacker: Kirby
's Attack: Inhale
Kirby's signature move. Being eight inches tall, and since Rosalina is skinny, Kirby is able to inhale Rosalina.
's Counter: Teleport
Rosalina could teleport out of Kirby's mouth.
's Counter: Inhale the Wand
It's assumed that several of Rosalina's powers come from her wand, so if Kirby takes that, she'd be powerless.

's Attack: Hammer
Kirby can hit Rosalina with a powerful hammer.
's Counter: Flight
Rosalina can fly away from the hammer.
's Counter: Warp Star
Kirby can chase Rosie and use his aerial hammer swings.

's Attack: Star Rod
Kirby can fire powerful stars at Rosalina.
's Counter: Nothing
Since Kirby inhaled the wand, Rosie cannot deflect the stars or shield herself.

's Attack: Ultra Sword
Kirby can swing one of several giant weapons at Rosalina.
's Counter: Nothing
The sword is massive, so Rosalina wouldn't be able to dodge it.

's Attack: Sleep
Kirby can crash into Rosalina and put her to sleep.
's Counter: Nothing
Nothing Rosalina can do will stop her from going to sleep.

's Attack: Triple Star
Kirby can fire three powerful stars at Rosalina.
's Counter: Nothing
The stars are controllable and powerful, so Rosie couldn't dodge or tank them. Kirby inhaled the wand, so she can't shield or deflect them.

's Attack: Tornado
Kirby can spin into an invincible cyclone and attack.
's Counter: Nothing
Kirby can fly as a Tornado, so Rosalina couldn't dodge this. Kirby inhaled the wand, so Rosie can't teleport or shield.

's Attack: Crash
Kirby can emit waves of powerful energy and vaporize Rosie.
's Counter: Nothing
Kirby inhaled the wand, so Rosalina couldn't teleport, shield, or deflect.
Summary
Rosalina is powerful, but Kirby is also powerful, and has variety on his side. Rosie's powers come from her wand and the Lumas, and since Kirby can inhale those, she can't do anything about his attacks. The winner is Kirby.

Even if she tried to recreate the universe, it's shown that the characters are the same so bringing it up is pointless
Rosalina stands at a little over 6 feet and in the Mario Kart games seems to be reasonably heavy, the normal inhale wouldn't cut it
I still think :kirby:

would win though

Munomario777 · Mar 2, 2015

Nerdicon said:
Meh.
I disagree at least in the way this is presented.
Kirby can use the copy ability to copy Rosalina's ability

Except she has a protective shield to protect herself from the vortex, as well as teleportation to escape it.

He can use Ghost to control the Lumas

What good would that do? Rosalina is immune to stars, black holes, and the like after all, and Rosalina has a practically infinite amount of Lumas, so losing one is no big deal really.

While possessing someone with ghost Kirby is invincible

What if the enemy Kirby's possessing is killed? Lumas will sacrifice anything to protect Rosalina after all.

Stone has been shown on several occasions to be immune to black holes

Such as? Either way, once something goes beyond the event horizon, it disappears, and seeing as how being absent for ten seconds = losing, this wouldn't turn out too well for Kirby.

The Kirby 64 incarnation of stone could attack Rosalina

How so? I assume you mean the double Stone mix, but Rosalina can fly above the ground, and the double Stone form cannot jump.

Kirby could use the magic paintbrush with wheel to fly with it

"The Magical Paintbrush is a mighty artifact owned by the evil witch Drawcia." Either way, Rosalina still has that protective shield, teleportation, and other defensive maneuvers, and she would have the reflexes to block in time, since she can deflect high-speed Star Bits in Galaxy. Plus, there's a limited amount of ink for the paintbrush, so it can't go too far without running out.

Rosalina throws up her forcefield on reaction and only to physical attacks, plenty of Kirby's attacks would catch her off guard

She only does it to physical attacks because that's all Mario can attack her with in Galaxy other than the Star Bits (which she reflects with her wand).

Hypernova

What good would that do if Rosalina can simply teleport out of the vortex?

Similarly to how you presented stone, Kirby could wait out Rosalina's shield if that's what it comes down to

The difference between Stone and the shield is that Rosalina has Lumas who can attack while Rosalina is shielding.

Even if she tried to recreate the universe, it's shown that the characters are the same so bringing it up is pointless
Rosalina stands at a little over 6 feet and in the Mario Kart games seems to be reasonably heavy, the normal inhale wouldn't cut it

Agreed.

I still think would win though

Nerdicon · Mar 2, 2015

Munomario777 said:
Except she has a protective shield to protect herself from the vortex, as well as teleportation to escape it.
I meant the copy ability the one from Kirby Super Star. It uses a near instant beam that once it hits the target, stuns them, takes their ability, then lets them go

What good would that do? Rosalina is immune to stars, black holes, and the like after all, and Rosalina has a practically infinite amount of Lumas, so losing one is no big deal really.
Well besides Kirby being invincible, Kirby can make said Luma explode, which Rosalina does not have an immunity to

What if the enemy Kirby's possessing is killed? Lumas will sacrifice anything to protect Rosalina after all.
See above

Such as? Either way, once something goes beyond the event horizon, it disappears, and seeing as how being absent for ten seconds = losing, this wouldn't turn out too well for Kirby.
A black hole is simply a minute yet incredibly massive object, the event horizon is the "point of no return" where anything that passes that area is sucked in by the singularity's massive gravity. The reason the object "disappears" is because there's no light to tell where it went. The object is still very much there

How so? I assume you mean the double Stone mix, but Rosalina can fly above the ground, and the double Stone form cannot jump.
Metal Kirby + Warp Star then

"The Magical Paintbrush is a mighty artifact owned by the evil witch Drawcia." Either way, Rosalina still has that protective shield, teleportation, and other defensive maneuvers, and she would have the reflexes to block in time, since she can deflect high-speed Star Bits in Galaxy. Plus, there's a limited amount of ink for the paintbrush, so it can't go too far without running out.
Wheel moves at 216 kilometers per hour at full speed, star bits move pretty slow too, only a little faster than Mario when shot. When found naturally they can move pretty fast though

She only does it to physical attacks because that's all Mario can attack her with in Galaxy other than the Star Bits (which she reflects with her wand).
Her reaction time is what I should've been referring to, and it doesn't seem too impressive especially concerning moves like Crash which cover the screen instantly if the screen pause is any indication

What good would that do if Rosalina can simply teleport out of the vortex?
Well she can't use any Lumas if they're constantly being eaten can she

The difference between Stone and the shield is that Rosalina has Lumas who can attack while Rosalina is shielding.
Kirby has the Warp Star which he can summon at any time to scoop him up, or just get it to crash land

Not to mention you seem to be beat 2 to 1

Munomario777 · Mar 2, 2015

Nerdicon said:
I meant the copy ability the one from Kirby Super Star. It uses a near instant beam that once it hits the target, stuns them, takes their ability, then lets them go
I see. How good is the range? Depending on how far away the enemy can be, Rosalina could escape this just by keeping her distance. Also, it wouldn't do much good to copy Rosalina's abilities, since the Lumas are her most powerful asset. Not to mention the shield and all.

Well besides Kirby being invincible, Kirby can make said Luma explode, which Rosalina does not have an immunity to
How would Kirby make the Luma explode?

A black hole is simply a minute yet incredibly massive object, the event horizon is the "point of no return" where anything that passes that area is sucked in by the singularity's massive gravity. The reason the object "disappears" is because there's no light to tell where it went. The object is still very much there
Eh, true. However, being sucked into a black hole causes "spaghettification", which is the technical term for being stretched like spaghetti. If Kirby wasn't torn apart by the sheer force of the black hole, the stretching would certainly be fatal (his squishiness won't get him out of this, since it can insta-kill Mario, who can survive being crushed similar to how Kirby can).

Metal Kirby + Warp Star then
I'd imagine it would be a bit too heavy for the Warp Star (seeing as how the video provided above with Stone Kirby has him fall off due to his massive weight).

Wheel moves at 216 kilometers per hour at full speed, star bits move pretty slow too, only a little faster than Mario when shot. When found naturally they can move pretty fast though
Source please? It sure doesn't look like it's moving that fast. Also, Kirby: Triple Deluxe provides the following description for Wheel: "As long as you've got speed, you're invincible, baby! Just watch out for potholes!" This tells us two things: Wheel Kirby relies on speed for invincibility (which is backed up in gameplay IIRC), and potholes are the form's flaw. Since Rosalina can manipulate gravity/use telekinesis, creating potholes in the ground shouldn't be a problem, nor should slowing Kirby down.

Her reaction time is what I should've been referring to, and it doesn't seem too impressive especially concerning moves like Crash which cover the screen instantly if the screen pause is any indication
Rosalina could just have the shield up constantly except for when she attacks, and just put her guard down when she's attacking (if she needs to at all; it's never said or shown that the shield prevents her from attacking; also Lumas).

Well she can't use any Lumas if they're constantly being eaten can she
Kirby can't attack if he's constantly inhaling Lumas, can he? He can't inhale a Luma behind him while he's inhaling one in front of him, or inhale a thousand Lumas all in different places at once, can he?

Kirby has the Warp Star which he can summon at any time to scoop him up, or just get it to crash land
...Which Rosalina could easily dodge via shield/teleportation (if she hasn't already black hole'd Kirby by now).

Not to mention you seem to be beat 2 to 1
For now, at least.

Kirby Dragons · Mar 2, 2015

Ghost can possess multiple enemies at once (he can possess http://kirby.wikia.com/wiki/Uja, a multitude of insects) just as long as they're compacted together. So if Lumas combine to make a star, Kirby can possess the whole thing. He can destroy more Lumas by hitting them all with his star body, and the Lumas couldn't do anything about it.

Ghost has the ability to make anything it possesses explode. And if Kirby possesses a Luma, he can use it as a shield and stay in it forever, transforming into a star and constantly destroying all Lumas. Rosalina wouldn't attack a Luma, nor would she order her Lumas to attack the Lumas (they couldn't anyway because they're getting destroyed).

The TK Rosalina uses is forcefield TK, where she moves things using forcefields. This wouldn't allow her to create potholes. The pothole thing is pretty much a joke anyways, Kirby could just jump over it.

(6:47) The black hole Rosalina created in the ending of SMG was pretty deep, Kirby would have time to do things inside it. Like possess it and blow it up.

The Stoopid Unikorn · Mar 2, 2015

Kirby Dragons said:
(6:47) The black hole Rosalina created in the ending of SMG was pretty deep, Kirby would have time to do things inside it. Like possess it and blow it up.

Or Inhale it

#Suckception

Nerdicon · Mar 2, 2015

Kirby Dragons said:
The TK Rosalina uses is forcefield TK, where she moves things using forcefields. This wouldn't allow her to create potholes.

Agreed, Rosalina has shown no evidence of being able to use her telekinesis to mold objects

(6:47) The black hole Rosalina created in the ending of SMG was pretty deep, Kirby would have time to do things inside it. Like possess it and blow it up.

That's not quite how black holes work.
A black holes is formed by a singularity an incredibly small yet incredibly massive object. This causes an immense gravitational pull depending on the density of the singularity. Anything that passes the event horizon can not leave the event horizon, while anything slightly outside that in the ergosphere is forced to stay in motion to resist the pull of the black hole. A black hole destroys things with it's sheer gravity. Baton would be a better choice in this case as it allows Kirby to stay in the ergosphere and still take control of the Luma singularity, if there's still anything to control. If that fails then Kirby would just need to stay away from the event horizon. Or earlier he could have copied Rosalina or a Luma to gain their resistance to gravity.

Dastardly Ridleylash · Mar 2, 2015

Kirby Dragons said:
(6:47) The black hole Rosalina created in the ending of SMG was pretty deep, Kirby would have time to do things inside it. Like possess it and blow it up.

You can't possess a black hole for it has nothing to possess, and you can't destroy one, either (as far as we know). If light, the fastest thing in existence, can't escape a black hole, than Kirby's pitifully sluggish speeds sure as heck wouldn't.
He'd be ripped to atoms before he could even suck up anything near a black hole. :/

Munomario777 · Mar 2, 2015

Kirby Dragons said:
Ghost can possess multiple enemies at once (he can possess http://kirby.wikia.com/wiki/Uja, a multitude of insects) just as long as they're compacted together. So if Lumas combine to make a star, Kirby can possess the whole thing. He can destroy more Lumas by hitting them all with his star body, and the Lumas couldn't do anything about it.

Actually, it only takes one Luma to make any celestial object, whether it be a star, black hole planet, etc., and Rosalina can summon tons of them. This would allow her to place black holes covering every inch of the arena, so that there's literally nowhere safe for Kirby to go.

Ghost has the ability to make anything it possesses explode. And if Kirby possesses a Luma, he can use it as a shield and stay in it forever, transforming into a star and constantly destroying all Lumas. Rosalina wouldn't attack a Luma, nor would she order her Lumas to attack the Lumas (they couldn't anyway because they're getting destroyed).

How big is the explosion radius? Also, if the Luma is destroyed (more on that in a second), then Kirby is exposed and vulnerable. Lumas will sacrifice anything to protect Rosalina, even if that means destroying their own brethren. This could be accomplished by turning into a black hole if Kirby turns into a star, or by thousands of Lumas going into the black hole if that's what Kirby chooses, in order to make it explode (shown in Galaxy's ending). In addition, the Lumas sure don't look like they would turn into black holes at first glance, so Kirby would probably try to possess/inhale Rosalina before thinking of going for the Lumas (which likely wouldn't work, since Ghost Kirby can't possess bosses, and Rosalina is larger than most Kirby bosses).

The TK Rosalina uses is forcefield TK, where she moves things using forcefields. This wouldn't allow her to create potholes. The pothole thing is pretty much a joke anyways, Kirby could just jump over it.

Yes, she moves things with force fields, such as a section of the ground. In addition to making potholes, this could be used to create a wall to halt Wheel Kirby and thus make him vulnerable.

(6:47) The black hole Rosalina created in the ending of SMG was pretty deep, Kirby would have time to do things inside it. Like possess it and blow it up.

Actually, that one was caused by Bowser's galaxy exploding. The ones Lumas create are much smaller and quicker to eliminate victims:

Nerdicon · Mar 2, 2015

Munomario777 said:
Actually, it only takes one Luma to make any celestial object, whether it be a star, black hole planet, etc., and Rosalina can summon tons of them. This would allow her to place black holes covering every inch of the arena, so that there's literally nowhere safe for Kirby to go.

Like I said, Kirby could copy a Luma or Rosalina to gain their gravity immunity

How big is the explosion radius? Also, if the Luma is destroyed (more on that in a second), then Kirby is exposed and vulnerable. Lumas will sacrifice anything to protect Rosalina, even if that means destroying their own brethren. This could be accomplished by turning into a black hole if Kirby turns into a star, or by thousands of Lumas going into the black hole if that's what Kirby chooses, in order to make it explode (shown in Galaxy's ending). In addition, the Lumas sure don't look like they would turn into black holes at first glance, so Kirby would probably try to possess/inhale Rosalina before thinking of going for the Lumas (which likely wouldn't work, since Ghost Kirby can't possess bosses, and Rosalina is larger than most Kirby bosses).

The one that happens before the creation of a galaxy, and the stars, planets, and black holes that come with. The sheer force of a galaxy coming into being should be enough to defeat Rosalina

Yes, she moves things with force fields, such as a section of the ground. In addition to making potholes, this could be used to create a wall to halt Wheel Kirby and thus make him vulnerable.

As small as the forcefields she creates are, Kirby could probably just jump in time or use the Magic Paintbrush, which since he's used before as a main ability he has access to. Wheel is only vulnerable when losing speed, if Kirby simply swerved around the wall without slowing down he'd be fine.

Actually, that one was caused by Bowser's galaxy exploding. The ones Lumas create are much smaller and quicker to eliminate victims:

Alright, the red-black sphere represents the event horizon while the red lines seem to represent the ergosphere. If that's the case then all Kirby needs to do is avoid the event horizon and keep moving at a reasonable speed (he'd probably have to be on the warp star at all times) to not get sucked in, not a big deal in all honesty. The black holes upon further inspection aren't anything special

Munomario777 · Mar 2, 2015

Nerdicon said:
Like I said, Kirby could copy a Luma or Rosalina to gain their gravity immunity

Actually, I'm starting to doubt that. Using size comparisons from Galaxy, Rosalina appears to be about seven and a half feet tall when we use Mario's height of about five feet as a reference point. The Lumas are about a third to a fourth of that height, so I'll say two feet. That places a Luma at three times the size of Kirby. Minibosses, which Kirby cannot inhale, are typically around that height. As for Hypernova, Lumas can fly, and Hypernova cannot suck enemies in while in midair (even though the animation still happens), and he wouldn't get the Copy Ability anyways.

The one that happens before the creation of a galaxy, and the stars, planets, and black holes that come with. The sheer force of a galaxy coming into being should be enough to defeat Rosalina

Except Rosalina still appears in Galaxy 2. Nothing is really destroyed by the rebirth... except the black hole. Also, that was on a much larger scale than the ones the Lumas create, so the rebirth probably wouldn't happen; only the explosion.

As small as the forcefields she creates are, Kirby could probably just jump in time or use the Magic Paintbrush, which since he's used before as a main ability he has access to. Wheel is only vulnerable when losing speed, if Kirby simply swerved around the wall without slowing down he'd be fine.

Given Rosalina's power in other areas, I wouldn't be surprised if she could make bigger force fields. However, seeing as how we don't technically see her do that in-game, I agree, but Rosalina's TK and gravity control could still slow him down directly.

Alright, the red-black sphere represents the event horizon while the red lines seem to represent the ergosphere. If that's the case then all Kirby needs to do is avoid the event horizon and keep moving at a reasonable speed (he'd probably have to be on the warp star at all times) to not get sucked in, not a big deal in all honesty. The black holes upon further inspection aren't anything special

Yeah, one black hole isn't really that impressive. How about, say, a thousand of them? Rosalina could summon hundreds upon hundreds of Lumas all turning into black holes to the point where every inch of the arena is a black hole, and at that point, Kirby would literally have nowhere to run and nowhere to hide.

Nerdicon · Mar 2, 2015

Munomario777 said:
Actually, I'm starting to doubt that. Using size comparisons from Galaxy, Rosalina appears to be about seven and a half feet tall when we use Mario's height of about five feet as a reference point. The Lumas are about a third to a fourth of that height, so I'll say two feet. That places a Luma at three times the size of Kirby. Minibosses, which Kirby cannot inhale, are typically around that height. As for Hypernova, Lumas can fly, and Hypernova cannot suck enemies in while in midair (even though the animation still happens), and he wouldn't get the Copy Ability anyways.

The COPY ABILITY as in the beam which can copy enemies that Kirby can't copy normally, like larger enemies or enemies that are immune to the inhale

]Except Rosalina still appears in Galaxy 2. Nothing is really destroyed by the rebirth... except the black hole. Also, that was on a much larger scale than the ones the Lumas create, so the rebirth probably wouldn't happen; only the explosion.

Here I'm referring to the violent explosion that takes place when a new galaxy or planet forms, the conversion of the Luma into the planet or galaxy if anything like real star rebirth means that the Luma violently explodes and reforms the remnants into the galaxy or planet in question. Most Lumas don't have the mass to pull that off so they need star bits to add more matter to the transformation.

Given Rosalina's power in other areas, I wouldn't be surprised if she could make bigger force fields. However, seeing as how we don't technically see her do that in-game, I agree, but Rosalina's TK and gravity control could still slow him down directly.

Unless Rosalina magics a planetoid below the floor, she can't augment gravity according to SMG. Or at least it's never demonstrated.

Yeah, one black hole isn't really that impressive. How about, say, a thousand of them? Rosalina could summon hundreds upon hundreds of Lumas all turning into black holes to the point where every inch of the arena is a black hole, and at that point, Kirby would literally have nowhere to run and nowhere to hide.

That's still not impressive when you consider that the arena gets larger as the black holes suck in more particles of the walls. They're only made of concrete after all. Also the aforementioned Luma ability would allow him to avoid the gravity, and then what would Rosalina do? If Kirby copies Rosalina or a Luma most of her options go down the drain. While Kirby can still shoot stars with the warp star and use some of the Luma abilities for his own.

Munomario777 · Mar 2, 2015

Nerdicon said:
The COPY ABILITY as in the beam which can copy enemies that Kirby can't copy normally, like larger enemies or enemies that are immune to the inhale

Still, I'm not sure if copying Rosalina/a Luma would grant that immunity to gravity, since I don't think passive traits usually copy over (i.e. enemies that constantly fly don't allow Kirby to fly without puffing up), and usually only contain the attacks of that character. Either way, Rosalina still has ways to combat this (more on that later).

Here I'm referring to the violent explosion that takes place when a new galaxy or planet forms, the conversion of the Luma into the planet or galaxy if anything like real star rebirth means that the Luma violently explodes and reforms the remnants into the galaxy or planet in question. Most Lumas don't have the mass to pull that off so they need star bits to add more matter to the transformation.

^ That's a Hungry Luma transformation. While it does seem pretty intense, again, Rosalina is immune to that sort of thing (and could just shield herself from the blast anyway). Many galaxies have multiple black holes, planetoids, etc., so the explosion for just one would likely be much more contained (not that that's a bad thing in the first place; it could also damage Kirby after all).

Unless Rosalina magics a planetoid below the floor, she can't augment gravity according to SMG. Or at least it's never demonstrated.

That would be a viable way of doing it, actually.

That's still not impressive when you consider that the arena gets larger as the black holes suck in more particles of the walls. They're only made of concrete after all. Also the aforementioned Luma ability would allow him to avoid the gravity, and then what would Rosalina do? If Kirby copies Rosalina or a Luma most of her options go down the drain. While Kirby can still shoot stars with the warp star and use some of the Luma abilities for his own.

Actually, the black holes in Galaxy have the unusual attribute of not damaging terrain despite that terrain being right next to the black hole, which leads me to believe that things are only sucked in at a relatively short range (still though, if Rosalina filled the arena with these, that wouldn't be an issue). If Kirby copied a Luma, the other Lumas could simply turn into stars (or Rosalina could use any of her other attacks) to damage Kirby and knock the power out of him (as well as perhaps knocking the Copy ability out of him), and then Rosalina simply wouldn't release any more Lumas for Kirby to copy.

Kirby Dragons · Mar 2, 2015

I don't think Kirby could copy anyone's powers, but only use a set of predetermined Copy Abilities.

Kirby would be able to inhale the Lumas, just not copy them. Kirby can inhale minibosses, they just have to be at rest/defeated. Since when can Hypernova Kirby not inhale flying enemies? He's inhaled missiles and blasts that were airborne, and even sent them back.

Ultimately,

has the majority here, so he should be declared winner.

Munomario777 · Mar 2, 2015

Kirby Dragons said:
I don't think Kirby could copy anyone's powers, but only use a set of predetermined Copy Abilities.

Good point; the Copy Ability doesn't work quite like it does in Smash, since it has a list of abilities that spread across multiple enemies rather than one for each enemy. I wonder what ability Rosalina/Luma would grant Kirby...

Kirby would be able to inhale the Lumas, just not copy them. Kirby can inhale minibosses, they just have to be at rest/defeated. Since when can Hypernova Kirby not inhale flying enemies? He's inhaled missiles and blasts that were airborne, and even sent them back.

Key words being "at rest/defeated." If Rosalina was already defeated, the battle would be over, and if Luma was defeated, he would simply pop out of existence (since we don't see one being killed in Galaxy AFAIK, I'm using Smash as a basis here). It's not that Hypernova Kirby can't inhale flying enemies; he just can't inhale while airborne (even though the animation still happens), and this would allow Rosalina and Luma to fly above the vortex.

Ultimately, has the majority here, so he should be declared winner.

Not really; Kirby doesn't have the ability to fill the entire battlefield with black holes.

Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

Smash Journeyman

Smash Obsessed

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Spiciest of Guacamoles

Smash Hero

Spiciest of Guacamoles

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Journeyman

Smash Master

Smash Journeyman

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Spiciest of Guacamoles

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Journeyman

Smash Master

Smash Journeyman

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Information

Network