Who beats Falco?

[redgreenblue]

lol u dont know just how good Candy is. Number one Snake on the East coast. I'm willing to bet money on that.

Second he's the only Falco i can play against. If any of uall want to challenge me we can perhaps shed some light on this matchup. I will record the matches as soon as i get my camera back from Hova.

#1 snake != #1 falco

 

[Hawks go Caw]

#1 snake != #1 falco

#1 Snake doesn't even equal any sort of Falco. #1 Snake simply means . . . #1 Snake.

 

[clowsui]

lol != means not equal to

 

[~^.NoiR.^~]

I hit a knowledge barrier today. I'm pretty sure that Falco's counters were Luigi and... well I don't think he had another one.

I guess I don't really understand how Falco has any weaknesses. If an opponent has a reflector, then that's actually good for Falco because he can bait it out and grab. Plus, he's got the full package of safe aerials, platform pressure, good recovery, and of course the chaingrab which works on freaking 90% of the cast after boost-grabbing.

I think Falco is the BEST character in the game. I don't see how people don't think he's not.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

lol != means not equal to

Yep. I was quoting for emphasis.

 

[Ulevo]

I'm likely to get shot in the leg for this, but I'll take my chances.

Jigglypuff.

First off, Jigglypuff cannot be Chain Grabbed more than twice, so that advantage is automatically gone. Combos and strings on her are also near impossible due to how light Jiggs is, while the opposite holds true against Falco because of how fast he falls. Jiggs is able to maneuver through Falco's barrage of lasers rather easily due to her aerial mobility and good air dodge. That and she can simple float above Falco's SHDL range. When it comes to close combat, Jigglypuff beats Falco hands down in the air every time. Pound out prioritizes everything Falco has excluding a random Shine, and the Fair/Bair together ruin any aerial approach. Dair spikes are hard to hit with given Jigg's flexibility to move, and if the % is not high enough Jigglypuff can recover from below the stage better than most characters could with repeated Rising Pounds and floats. On the ground, Falco wins, but Jiggs will never be stationed on the ground anyway, which means he has to compete with the same aerial game he loses to. Once Jigglypuff has Falco off the stage, he's an easy target because of his mediocre recovery and fast falling properties.

Aside from Jiggs, G&W is definitely Counter #1.

 

[clowsui]

Man people are so confused about the purpose of lasers
They're to put pressure on where you move and on your shield, damage is just the best bonus out of all of them
I've played a few Jigglys before and they're nothing special...she's just like Kirby only a bit more mobile and a lot better in the air. Tilts are ridiculously good against Jigglypuff.
Moreover if Jiggly's on her way up a Bair will easily put her far our there, which means she has more distance to travel and then you Bair her again. Yay!
FAir and BAir can easily be spotdodged and grabbed. Grabbing is for pressure...and DThrow achieves just that. Dthrow - chase - UAir is **** agianst Jigglypuff.
You're underestimating the speed of Phantasm, Jiggly will eventually push Falco far enough out where he can just >B back to the stage. However at higher percents it gets difficult for Falco as it was in Melee; it's possible to recover just slightly harder (not ever as hard as Melee though when against a decent Jiggs)

At worst the matchup is 60-40 Jiggs.

 

[Ulevo]

Man people are so confused about the purpose of lasers
They're to put pressure on where you move and on your shield, damage is just the best bonus out of all of them
I've played a few Jigglys before and they're nothing special...she's just like Kirby only a bit more mobile and a lot better in the air. Tilts are ridiculously good against Jigglypuff.
Moreover if Jiggly's on her way up a Bair will easily put her far our there, which means she has more distance to travel and then you Bair her again. Yay!
FAir and BAir can easily be spotdodged and grabbed. Grabbing is for pressure...and DThrow achieves just that. Dthrow - chase - UAir is **** agianst Jigglypuff.
You're underestimating the speed of Phantasm, Jiggly will eventually push Falco far enough out where he can just >B back to the stage. However at higher percents it gets difficult for Falco as it was in Melee; it's possible to recover just slightly harder (not ever as hard as Melee though when against a decent Jiggs)

At worst the matchup is 60-40 Jiggs.

I'm aware that Lasers are for pressure and to force an approach. I'm just saying it doesn't really work against Jigglypuff. Actually, I forgot to mention Jiggs can duck under the lasers to begin with.

You will also be either very fortunate or facing a very bad Jiggly if Spot Dodging to Grabs or Shield Grabbing works against her Fairs/Bairs/Pound. Good Jigglypuff players will always weave her Bair in and out of your range, making a grab from a shield or otherwise impossible. Fairs will be used when you're vulnerable only, as a sweet spot needs to connect to get the most knock back, and it will likely push Falco off the stage for edge guarding. Pound can be spaced appropriately too, and will eat your shield if you use it too much. Also, Nair > Phantasm.

As for the Tilts, the only one that has use to Falco is the FTilt. DTilt will almost never happen due to Jiggly being aerial constantly, and UTilt is easy to DI out of and prevent a follow up. FTilt has good range, so it does have some use if Jiggly tries to come in for a Bair approach and misses the spacing.

 

[SlashTalon]

Falco's Nair, Bair, Upair, and Dair > Jiggs

 

[gunterrsmash01]

Lucario & Marth are good counters

 

[ftl]

Lucario & Marth are good counters

Coincidentally, Marth and Lucario also have good counters! Except for Lucario.

 

[BEES]

I think Falco is the BEST character in the game. I don't see how people don't think he's not.

I think of all the high tiers, Falco feels like he has the most control in his matches. The other good characters rely too much on accidents. However, I have a hunch Game&Watch and Pikachu will eventually take over, and the only reason they haven't already is that they're not popular characters.

 

[Ulevo]

Falco's Nair, Bair, Upair, and Dair > Jiggs

You've obviously never played a Jiggs before.

Nair is good for strings and damage. Not priority. It's priority is garbage. Uair will override Jiggs Dair, but you will never catch her in that scenario due to Air Dodging and mobility unless you have a very good set up. Bair is a little more feesible, but it won't outprioritize Jiggs Pound or Bair. For Dair, see Uair.

You're overestimating Falco's aerials. I play and main both these characters. His aerial game is good, but mainly because it includes a spike, decent damage and the Bair has above average priority. It's not amazing, and it doesn't beat Jigglypuffs.

 

[PhantomBrawler]

I think of all the high tiers, Falco feels like he has the most control in his matches. The other good characters rely too much on accidents. However, I have a hunch Game&Watch and Pikachu will eventually take over, and the only reason they haven't already is that they're not popular characters.

Are you seriously suggesting that pikachu will be a higher tier character than falco? wow. um....im speachless. Well not really, falco is by far a much better character than pika(i dont want to go into why, just accept it) imo, GW and Falco will battle for the third spot in top tier and the loser getting the top spot in high tier.

 

[zamz]

Interesting. From this thread, we've learned that the following characters are Falco's counter:

G&W
ROB
Metaknight
Lucario
Zelda
Wario
Pit
DDD
Kirby
Mario
Olimar
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Marth

Lmao...

 

[SlashTalon]

You've obviously never played a Jiggs before.

Nair is good for strings and damage. Not priority. It's priority is garbage. Uair will override Jiggs Dair, but you will never catch her in that scenario due to Air Dodging and mobility unless you have a very good set up. Bair is a little more feesible, but it won't outprioritize Jiggs Pound or Bair. For Dair, see Uair.

You're overestimating Falco's aerials. I play and main both these characters. His aerial game is good, but mainly because it includes a spike, decent damage and the Bair has above average priority. It's not amazing, and it doesn't beat Jigglypuffs.

I've only ever played one, and honestly I just baited a move, countered with an aerial and bam-win.

i may be overestimating Falco's aerials, but the matchup itself would def go to Falco IMO.

 

[D3w3y]

Interesting. From this thread, we've learned that the following characters are Falco's counter:

G&W
ROB
Metaknight
Lucario
Zelda
Wario
Pit
DDD
Kirby
Mario
Olimar
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Marth

Lmao...

Haha well put... Personally I think Falco is a Falco counter.

But on a serious note it seems as if G&W, ROB, Lucario and Zelda are the main counters and in that order.

I also feel that the Jigglypuff arguement holds some water and after all the bickering may be considered a counter.

 

[BEES]

Are you seriously suggesting that pikachu will be a higher tier character than falco? wow. um....im speachless. Well not really, falco is by far a much better character than pika(i dont want to go into why, just accept it) imo, GW and Falco will battle for the third spot in top tier and the loser getting the top spot in high tier.

Pikachu is comically underrated. Try playing a good one for a change. You'll see what I mean. He has pretty good matchups against other high tiers.

Just because Falco can beat a character doesn't mean it's a worse character. And in this case it's an even matchup anyway.

 

[Keitaro]

@ Ulevo: I fought a Jiggs in tournament yesterday and had one of the most fustrating matches I've ever had in my life. The moment he got me off stage it was over. 4 bairs caused me to be to far to recover.

When I fell to low, the jiggs would dair, bair, dair, and my up-b was to far away to get back.

I noticed this before when I faced Teh Spamerer's Jiggs but didn't take note of it and now I paid for it. Definitely had to switch characters after that first match "he won by 2 stocks on Smashville." Mainly cause of the gimps.

 

[clowsui]

lol reading Keitaro's matchup makes me go to Ulevo's side; plus after thinking about it Jigglypuff getting you off the stage means you're done without a high priority, quick UpB or an interrupting move.

STRONG COUNTERS
GW
Jigglyspuff (same as Maylay =( )

SOFT COUNTERS
Zelda
Pikachu (60% CG + Thunderflipping [USmash -> Thunder] makes me wince)
Lucario
Marth (it's actually decently easy for him to gimp so long as he keeps his double jump
Metaknight (ONLY if it's a Whorenado camper, if it doesn't use it that often then that's fine)
ROB (a campy ROB eats you alive...it's also hard to edgeguard him and kill him)

 

[redgreenblue]

Keitaro your signature makes me lol quite hard.

 

[Ulevo]

Interesting. From this thread, we've learned that the following characters are Falco's counter:

G&W
ROB
Metaknight
Lucario
Zelda
Wario
Pit
DDD
Kirby
Mario
Olimar
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Marth

Lmao...

G&W: I don't think anyone is going to question this one. The DThrow to DSmash is guaranteed if I recall, the Lasers can be caught via Bucket and used against you, he's hard to CG, hard to spike due to his good recovery, and his Melee out prioritizes Falco by far.

Meta Knight: I would have to say Meta Knight has a slight advantage here. Meta Knight is able to gimp Falco pretty badly if he brings him off the stage, which with a few throws and his amazing dash grab, wouldn't be too difficult to do. Meta Knight is faster, and his Melee is superior. He also can't be spiked easily save for CG to Dair, due to his awesome recovery. It isn't a major advantage since those Lasers and CG are a problem, but this one goes to Meta Knight.

Jigglypuff: I've already defended this point.

Kirby: Due to subtle similarities Kirby shares with Jiggs (multiple floats, ducking under lasers, good edge guard), I'm going to go on a limb and say Kirby has the advantage. But don't quote me on this, as it may be a farfetched assumption, and Kirby does not have the mobility Jiggs does. Kirby also has his Psuedo CG with the FThrow to UTilt.

Pikachu: Pikachu is faster than Falco, both in the air and on the ground. Even though Falco can CG Pikachu, Pikachu will CG you back, and to a higher percent. Pikachu also has two he can use against you, and one brings you to the edge of the stage for a gimp. These are statistics I can go by, but in terms of experiencing this match up, I can't really say much. I think Pikachu has the definite advantage in this one.

The rest of those characters, save for maybe Wario (which I don't feel I can really make the call in), are either even with Falco or are at a disadvantage. Just my opinion.

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

Jigglypuff was not a strong counter in melee. I don't know what you are talking about. Off stage she had the advantage, on stage, you had the advantage. The same holds true for Brawl. Between Lasers and Phantasms, you can create a huge illusion of being faster and more mobile than she is. You also have to be smart about how you are recovering. That part is difficult yes, but you can definitely control the pace of the match with her.

 

[zamz]

Ulevo, I wasn't being serious =), I was trying to make the point that if we listed every character Falco might potentially lose to, we'll have the entire cast on paper. I think some people in this thread don't know what a 'strong counter' means. Just because Falco might be at a slight disadvantage doesn't mean it's enough to call a character a counter. But you probably understood what I meant anyway. /ranting to self.

-G&W is easily the strongest Falco counter.
-Meta Knight has a slight advantage against Falco, but it's not game breaking. Falco can compete on fair terms. I really doubt someone would purposely choose Metaknight as a counter to face Falco. This matchup is painful for both users. Metaknight struggles. MK might have a slight advantage in terms, but it's hardly enough to boast about. I think if someone was purposely choosing a 'counterpick' they would mirgrate to the G&W/Jiggs area and leave Metaknight for their main.
-Jiggly Puff is a beast. I wouldn't doubt if her metagame progressed she would become a true counter. But as of now, there's so few good Jiggs to even compare. I think it's hard to say. But, I agree, there's a disadvantage for Falco here...
-Kirby...I can't see him anything beyond a 50/50 matchup. He might be bouncey, but his ariel game is nowhere near as awesome as Jiggly's ariel game. Falco struggles against characters that are decent in the air. The same qualities that you might say make Kirby good against Falco are multipled ten fold for Jigglypuff. So, why use Kirby as a counter, if you can just use Jiggs instead? It seems as if Kirby has nothing 'unique' going for him...so I'm hesitant to ever consider him a 'counter.' Unless you already main Kirby, there's no point in even touching him.
-Pikachu is...deadly. Nobody's denying it. I'd love to see Sethlon go up against Anther =)

 

[Ulevo]

Ulevo, I wasn't being serious =), I was trying to make the point that if we listed every character Falco might potentially lose to, we'll have the entire cast on paper. I think some people in this thread don't know what a 'strong counter' means. Just because Falco might be at a slight disadvantage doesn't mean it's enough to call a character a counter. But you probably understood what I meant anyway. /ranting to self.

-G&W is easily the strongest Falco counter.
-Meta Knight has a slight advantage against Falco, but it's not game breaking. Falco can compete on fair terms. I really doubt someone would purposely choose Metaknight as a counter to face Falco. This matchup is painful for both users. Metaknight struggles. MK might have a slight advantage in terms, but it's hardly enough to boast about. I think if someone was purposely choosing a 'counterpick' they would mirgrate to the G&W/Jiggs area and leave Metaknight for their main.
-Jiggly Puff is a beast. I wouldn't doubt if her metagame progressed she would become a true counter. But as of now, there's so few good Jiggs to even compare. I think it's hard to say. But, I agree, there's a disadvantage for Falco here...
-Kirby...I can't see him anything beyond a 50/50 matchup. He might be bouncey, but his ariel game is nowhere near as awesome as Jiggly's ariel game. Falco struggles against characters that are decent in the air. The same qualities that you might say make Kirby good against Falco are multipled ten fold for Jigglypuff. So, why use Kirby as a counter, if you can just use Jiggs instead? It seems as if Kirby has nothing 'unique' going for him...so I'm hesitant to ever consider him a 'counter.' Unless you already main Kirby, there's no point in even touching him.
-Pikachu is...deadly. Nobody's denying it. I'd love to see Sethlon go up against Anther =)

I know you weren't serious, I got the memo. Just contributing to discussion. The definite counters would consist of Pikachu, G&W and Jiggs. After all, we all know that Mario is a much better character than Falco.

On a more serious note, Kirby, again, I'm not too sure of. I know he has a decent WoP with his Bair, despite him not being as good as Jigglypuff with aerials, and I know he has a decent CG that goes to around 40% or so. I know he can duck the lasers, and he can probably maneuver around them okay. Other than that I have nothing really to go by. Meta Knight isn't a Counter, but I was merely mentioning the advantage.

 

[mantaray]

I'm a zelda main and my friend is a pretty good falco that I have trouble with at times. The way I deal with him is all about spacing. I need to keep him close enough so that he doesn't spam his lasers but far enough so he doesn't lock me into his grab or holdA to reflector combos. I like using smashes and tilts generally for offensive and nayru's to maintain space and against lasers. Din's fire works well offensively and to lure him in. Falco falls kind of fast and weirdly so its a bit hard to time my aerials correctly. The main problem is that falco can get a step ahead with his speed and disrupt my momentum.

Forgive me if I sound ********, I'm relatively new.

 

[Edds]

isint snake a bad matchup for falco? he can brawl under the laser and reflector kick. but thats all i seem to know. its been a few months ive played a falco main.

 

[iDizZzY]

to be honest, i do have a hard time against campy/defensive snakes, lucarios, and of course F***** metaknight. I dont seem to have a problem with GaW. My friend mains him and we always seem to have pretty even matches

 

[ScubaF_ingSteve]

I'm pretty sure Ice climbers are a good counter to falco, well s my falco anyways. Game & Watch comes to mind as does metaknight, but metaknight has a smaller advantage. I'm not sure about jiggs. Pika is also a good falco counter.

 

[wangston]

A peach might have and advantage. I played a real peach main, and he was good. He floated at falco's heighted and approached with the all powerful dair, if I shot him with lasers he would FF f-air and I would get owned from that. I can't chain grab him, but I can dthrow to dair, to down smash. Or when close the the edge i can spike him like that. But a real peach player is very hard to fight. Or maybe it's just cause it was my first time fighting a good one.

Yeah I would say ice climbers are a veryhard match. Espeical one that knows how to play the ice climbers. There grabs own you.

 

[zamz]

Snake is not a bad matchup for Falco. This is argued to death and the general ruling is that a good Falco will beat a good Snake. There's very little Snake can do against a Falco who doesn't get hit by gernades and doesn't fall for boost smashes. But mainly, Snake's vertical recovery is trash. Every time Snake uses his Up-B recovery, he gives Falco a free Spike. His C4 recovery only works at lower %s, and the blast still lines him up within spikable range. As suprising as it sounds, Snake is easier to gimp than Falco in this match up...and that's deadly for a Snake who NEEDS to survive past 150% to win a match.

Ice Climbers and Peach aren't counters for Falco. If you struggle with Ice Climbers, don't get grabbed. Easy match up.

If you struggle with Peach...well...SHDL more. Peach relies on floating in the air to own you. If you stop Peach from ever reaching the air, she's pretty useless. She's also highly gimpable. Just spike her, and she likely won't have the means to jump high enough to save herself.

 

[Omni]

G&W isn't a counter in my opinion. Falco's b-air goes through his turtle. SH single laser as an approach 9/10 stops G&W from jumping into the air with turtle. Falco can chaingrab G&W from 0 to 50+ if u punish with dash-attack/up-smash or on the last grab, move into a d-air to grab or jab combo. Up-smash kills G&W fairly early, as well.

I don't think Falco has any counters. Just not as simple or straitforward matches if he can't chaingrab his opponent.

 

[BEES]

Game&Watch's dthrow-dsmash is escapable. Tech away when he dthrows.

Pikachu's upsmash-thunder is escapable with DI. The main thing with fighting pikachu is to watch out for the skullbash. He loves using it for recoveries against Falco, because it outprioritizes the dair, and stagespikes ledgegrabbers.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

G&W isn't a counter in my opinion. Falco's b-air goes through his turtle. SH single laser as an approach 9/10 stops G&W from jumping into the air with turtle. Falco can chaingrab G&W from 0 to 50+ if u punish with dash-attack/up-smash or on the last grab, move into a d-air to grab or jab combo. Up-smash kills G&W fairly early, as well.

I don't think Falco has any counters. Just not as simple or straitforward matches if he can't chaingrab his opponent.

-I really doubt Falco's B-air out prioritizes turtle or "goes through" turtle. Turtle's not a part of G&W while Falco's leg is a part of Falco . . . .
-Approaching with lasers means easy buckets
-Pretty sure you can't chaingrab to 50+. Unless you mean chaingrab to 45 then do all that other stuff you mentioned, in which case that's not doing a chaingrab from 0-50+, that's just a chaingrab to 45.
-G&W's smashes kill Falco much earlier than Falco's kill G&W.
-G&W's recovery makes him really hard to spike/edge guard in general.

 

[Omni]

-I really doubt Falco's B-air out prioritizes turtle or "goes through" turtle. Turtle's not a part of G&W while Falco's leg is a part of Falco . . . .
-Approaching with lasers means easy buckets
-Pretty sure you can't chaingrab to 50+. Unless you mean chaingrab to 45 then do all that other stuff you mentioned, in which case that's not doing a chaingrab from 0-50+, that's just a chaingrab to 45.
-G&W's smashes kill Falco much earlier than Falco's kill G&W.
-G&W's recovery makes him really hard to spike/edge guard in general.

Try using Falco's b-air against a G&W's turtle.

It'd be silly to not use lasers at all against G&W. Smart players will know that you can laser G&W, but you'd have to do it unexpectantly and at the right time. By hitting them with a laser unexpectantly, it makes them more viable to be ready to bucket whenever Falco does a regular empty short hop in front of G&W. Leaves them open for attacks. Mindgames, son.

Yeah, chaingrab to 45 to dash attack/up-smash. It works does great damage. G&W dies from up-smash on FD probably around 95-110%. Not too hard to rack up a few extra % using jab combos, one or two lasers, and other well spaced moves.

The only way Falco is going to get forward-smashed/d-smash is if he tries to air-dodge into G&W from above (most likely thing), rolls into G&W, or doesn't get in and out after hitting G&W. There's no pointing being "inside" G&W unless you're jab comboing him or you suspect he's about to sidestep.

You don't kill G&W from the bottom. You kill him from the top or the sides and Falco has 2 great smashes for doing just that. Just because Falco can't gay him with a spike doesn't mean he G&W becomes a counter.

 

[Keitaro]

Try using Falco's b-air against a G&W's turtle.

I loved this part

 

[SlashTalon]

Game&Watch's dthrow-dsmash is escapable. Tech away when he dthrows.

Pikachu's upsmash-thunder is escapable with DI. The main thing with fighting pikachu is to watch out for the skullbash. He loves using it for recoveries against Falco, because it outprioritizes the dair, and stagespikes ledgegrabbers.

Bair ***** Skull bash

even fully charged. with hilarious results =D