Where would you guess Ridley would be Tier wise?

Scicky

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#41
I mean, currently high-tier consists of 13 characters, and Smash U has only 7 or 8 more characters at the moment, I don't see all of that being channeled into high tier. But my point was more that no matter the size of high-tier, we can't judge tier placement at the moment since it's all relative to the rest of the roster, which we haven't seen. However unlikely it might be, there's still a chance that all the characters we've been shown end up being worse than the 30~ characters we haven't seen.
 

Rizen

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#43
I mean, currently high-tier consists of 13 characters, and Smash U has only 7 or 8 more characters at the moment, I don't see all of that being channeled into high tier. But my point was more that no matter the size of high-tier, we can't judge tier placement at the moment since it's all relative to the rest of the roster, which we haven't seen. However unlikely it might be, there's still a chance that all the characters we've been shown end up being worse than the 30~ characters we haven't seen.
I consider high tier to include B so there's 20 characters in high and top for SSB4. TBH the 3 characters I mentioned were a blind guess. The only character I've taken an in-depth look at is Link. Still I'd be surprised if they end up lower than high tier based on what I said before. But, especially with Sakurai, you never know; Marth did start out a low tier before patches. Although I doubt they'll make the same mistake.
 

Scicky

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#44
Yeah, I think there are some fairly safe-bets, but claiming that anything is locked in at a point where we haven't seen half the roster and what we have seen is still undergoing changes isn't something I can get behind. If you wanna say that Fox, Marth and Pikachu are high-tier in the demo build of the game? Fine, but we have no idea how they'll fare at release.

Also regarding Link, idk where I'd place him if you asked me but he looks so much better than in the past. Remote bombs look amazing and the reduced landing lag on aerials seems to really benefit him. That, and glide-tossing looks really slick in this game.
 
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NocturnalQuill

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#45
He's got a lot of strengths, but his large hitbox makes him easy to combo. I'm going to say upper mid to low upper tier. Out of 68 characters, he'll end up between 12 and 25 on the list.
 

Erimir

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#46
Having watched quite a bit more footage, I'd now say he probably will be at least mid tier.

There are so many characters and we've seen less than half of the roster in action, so it's hard to be more confident than that.
 

S_B

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#47
I don't see him being anywhere above mid Tier.

The footage we've seen so far doesn't look promising. It doesn't matter how much damage his dB deals if you can't hit it.

It is too early to call any Tiers besides Bayonetta being top again (as of demo Version).

I'd say it is unlikely Ridley being very good though. Regarding his weight, size and bad recovery I would put him upper mid at the absolute highest.
This is my impression of him as well.

I like the looks of a lot of his frame data and hitboxes, and I get the feeling he'll be fun AF to play, but Ridley is still going to get screwed over by characters like Pikachu (who can push Ridley off the ledge, drag him down with ease, and still recover just fine).

I badly want one of the SSB games to give us a genuine top tier heavyweight, but I just don't know how that's going to happen unless they give that heavyweight a grab > kill confirm AND a reliable combo breaker (since all that weight doesn't mean much if getting hit once usually results in getting comboed for 50% or more).

The problem heavy characters have always had in SSB is that weight doesn't = survivability anywhere near as much as simply not getting hit does. If Pikachu can deal 100 damage to Ridley in the same amount of time it takes Ridley to deal ~30% back, Pikachu is the more survivable character.

I'm all for heavies getting whatever they need to be viable in SSBU: super armor, heavy armor, whatever. I just don't want to watch another generation of tournament matches dominated by lightweights again.

This match was hype AF to watch:
https://youtu.be/znyiqOm93bg

It'll be a crying shame if we don't get more of that on a regular basis...
 
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Scicky

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#49
I badly want one of the SSB games to give us a genuine top tier heavyweight, but I just don't know how that's going to happen unless they give that heavyweight a grab > kill confirm AND a reliable combo breaker (since all that weight doesn't mean much if getting hit once usually results in getting comboed for 50% or more).
Well, his command grab can kill at pretty reasonable percents, and seems to work well as an off-stage gimp depending on the stage, dunno if that counts. The more gameplay I see the more I can imagine RIdley being mid-high/high tier. He has some fairly combo set-ups, a good command grab, decent projectile, strong punish game and is actually mobile enough to avoid attacks consistently when compared to other heavies. His Nair also looks like an extremely safe spacing tool.
 

Diem

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#50
This is my impression of him as well.

I like the looks of a lot of his frame data and hitboxes, and I get the feeling he'll be fun AF to play, but Ridley is still going to get screwed over by characters like Pikachu (who can push Ridley off the ledge, drag him down with ease, and still recover just fine).

I badly want one of the SSB games to give us a genuine top tier heavyweight, but I just don't know how that's going to happen unless they give that heavyweight a grab > kill confirm AND a reliable combo breaker (since all that weight doesn't mean much if getting hit once usually results in getting comboed for 50% or more).

The problem heavy characters have always had in SSB is that weight doesn't = survivability anywhere near as much as simply not getting hit does. If Pikachu can deal 100 damage to Ridley in the same amount of time it takes Ridley to deal ~30% back, Pikachu is the more survivable character.

I'm all for heavies getting whatever they need to be viable in SSBU: super armor, heavy armor, whatever. I just don't want to watch another generation of tournament matches dominated by lightweights again.

This match was hype AF to watch:
https://youtu.be/znyiqOm93bg

It'll be a crying shame if we don't get more of that on a regular basis...
Yeah, weight and power means nothing if you can't actually hit your opponent reliably. King Dedede is my secondary main after R.O.B., and he's bottom tier in Smash 4. And he was only viable in Brawl because of chaingrabbing, which is cheap. In Smash 4, most of his moves are super slow and punishable, so faster characters can easily dodge and attack. Same with Ganondorf, Ike, and Charizard.

Bowser and DK are mid-tier because they're faster and better moves/frame data. They weren't very good in Melee and Brawl, but the tweaks they received in Smash 4 boosted them up significantly. I feel like Ridley will be like that, maybe better, since he's got better mobility and some really good moves.

Part of the problem is that the game is kind of balanced around 3+ fights as well as 1v1. Sakurai admitted that Ridley's Down-B is better-suited to larger games where it can catch players unaware, as opposed to 1v1's where it's easier to avoid. Similar to Ganondorf's Warlock Punch and up-tilt, I suppose. You can smoke people with them in a 3 player game where two players are preoccupied with one another, but not so much when all their attention is on you.

But since this game's competitive scene is being taken more seriously, here's hoping that the metagame offers for some viable heavyweights as well, Ridley especially.

Here's the timestamp for that fight: https://youtu.be/znyiqOm93bg?t=8h49m38s

Which is a little encouraging, because Mewtwo was top tier by the end of Smash 4.
 
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#51
This is my impression of him as well.

I like the looks of a lot of his frame data and hitboxes, and I get the feeling he'll be fun AF to play, but Ridley is still going to get screwed over by characters like Pikachu (who can push Ridley off the ledge, drag him down with ease, and still recover just fine).

I badly want one of the SSB games to give us a genuine top tier heavyweight, but I just don't know how that's going to happen unless they give that heavyweight a grab > kill confirm AND a reliable combo breaker (since all that weight doesn't mean much if getting hit once usually results in getting comboed for 50% or more).

The problem heavy characters have always had in SSB is that weight doesn't = survivability anywhere near as much as simply not getting hit does. If Pikachu can deal 100 damage to Ridley in the same amount of time it takes Ridley to deal ~30% back, Pikachu is the more survivable character.

I'm all for heavies getting whatever they need to be viable in SSBU: super armor, heavy armor, whatever. I just don't want to watch another generation of tournament matches dominated by lightweights again.

This match was hype AF to watch:
https://youtu.be/znyiqOm93bg

It'll be a crying shame if we don't get more of that on a regular basis...
Snake is top tier in Brawl and is still looking very good in Ultimate. Or does that not fit your criteria? Maybe you meant "super-heavyweight", characters with massive frames and very high weight. Well Ridley has the frame, but his weight is actually not all that close to the likes of Bowser, even though it's still noticeably above-average. Ridley is more viable because he just isn't as extreme as his peers.

If I'm gonna be quite honest, I think heavyweights like Ganondorf don't have to be top of the class. They wouldn't nearly be as crowd-pleasing otherwise. They just need to be able to hang in long enough to create those huge upset moments, and to be fair, Ridley's down b is probably gonna be one of those moves that elicits strong praise whenever landed.
 
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S_B

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#52
Snake is top tier in Brawl and is still looking very good in Ultimate. Or does that not fit your criteria? Maybe you meant "super-heavyweight"
I mean big hurtboxes, mostly.

If a character is going to have a large hurtbox, they need more than just weight to compensate.

That said, I feel like Ridley will likely be the highest tier of all heavyweights we've seen thus far (KKRool inclusion pending).

Bowser and DK are mid-tier because they're faster and better moves/frame data.
Frame data helped, but it was getting patched to have reliable kill confirms that truly made them at least somewhat viable.

I was actually surprised that they never patched in a throw followup for D3 and Gdorf after Bowser and DK got theirs.
 
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SuperDoom1

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#53
Let me give you my two cents.

It doesn't matter.
Tiers don't matter if a game is meant for the casuals. They may exist, but they weren't meant to. Sakurai never wanted wavedashing in Melee, which is why he took it out of Brawl. He makes games for everybody, so that anybody can win with any character. Sure, he never succeeds and they're never perfectly equal, but he tries.
Take Brawl, for example. Brawl had some major gameplay changes to accommodate for Sakurai thinking Melee was too technical (and at least three fourths of everybody who owned a Wii, but mostly Sakurai), and 4 was only sped up to please the fans. I agree with Sakurai, and believe that we should save competitive fighting games for Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat.
Is it that I, myself, don't do eSports? I don't know. But what I do know is I will no matter what main Ridley.




Unless Scorpion comes.
 
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#54
I don't really know or care too much. He probably wont be so high that he's winning tournaments but at this point, it's just too early to tell. I remember when people were saying that Bowser was going to be top tier in Smash 4 because of how he played in the demo... and then people got the game and learned more about it.
 

NocturnalQuill

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#55
Let me give you my two cents.

It doesn't matter.
Tiers don't matter if a game is meant for the casuals. They may exist, but they weren't meant to. Sakurai never wanted wavedashing in Melee, which is why he took it out of Brawl. He makes games for everybody, so that anybody can win with any character. Sure, he never succeeds and they're never perfectly equal, but he tries.
Take Brawl, for example. Brawl had some major gameplay changes to accommodate for Sakurai thinking Melee was too technical (and at least three fourths of everybody who owned a Wii, but mostly Sakurai), and 4 was only sped up to please the fans. I agree with Sakurai, and believe that we should save competitive fighting games for Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat.
Is it that I, myself, don't do eSports? I don't know. But what I do know is I will no matter what main Ridley.




Unless Scorpion comes.
Smash isn't specifically geared to casuals. It's not geared to competitive players either. The beauty of Smash is that it managed to accomplish what so many studios have tried, failed, and even gone bankrupt attempting: appealing to the mythical "wider audience". It's true that Smash has a good casual fanbase, but the hardcore fans are the reliable market. Nintendo learned the hard way what happens when you alienate your best customers with the later half of the Wii's life cycle (good console sales but poor attach rate) and the Wii U. It's no coincidence that Nintendo has almost entirely jettisoned the casual branding it adopted during the Wii era overnight.

As for tiers, I tend to view tiers as a bit more fluid. I think that fixating on the exact ranking is silly considering how subject it is to change, but I think even the most casual players will agree that there's a difference between Bayonetta and Jigglypuff in Smash 4.
 

KingBroly

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#56
Ridley is going to be mid tier for the first 6-8 months, then he'll get a patch and/or people will figure him out and he'll be a Top 5 character.
 
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#57
Let me give you my two cents.

It doesn't matter.
Tiers don't matter if a game is meant for the casuals. They may exist, but they weren't meant to. Sakurai never wanted wavedashing in Melee, which is why he took it out of Brawl. He makes games for everybody, so that anybody can win with any character. Sure, he never succeeds and they're never perfectly equal, but he tries.
Take Brawl, for example. Brawl had some major gameplay changes to accommodate for Sakurai thinking Melee was too technical (and at least three fourths of everybody who owned a Wii, but mostly Sakurai), and 4 was only sped up to please the fans. I agree with Sakurai, and believe that we should save competitive fighting games for Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat.
Is it that I, myself, don't do eSports? I don't know. But what I do know is I will no matter what main Ridley.

Unless Scorpion comes.
Sakurai never said he "never wanted wavedashing in Melee." In fact they knew about it beforehand but didn't think it would be a big deal. Then they changed the engine and game mechanics, and as a result, you couldn't wavedash.

Tiers exist regardless of whether or not you want to believe that they do. The game is played competitively. Can't do anything to stop that.

Why do people say such silly stuff lmao
 
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#58
Prolly gonna have to wait for the game to come out to properly lab him. So far, the tiers I've seen him in on a different thread seem to boil down to Upper Mid tier or Lower High tier (so around top 25ish)
 

Smash Lampjaw

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#59
From what I've seen, he looks to be on the extreme end of the high-risk, high-reward type. It would probably do good to get a lot of practice in. I think he'd be a very profitable main for a lot of people if they're willing to put the time into mastering him, because I doubt he's going to be easy. Looks like a lot of fun, though.

As everyone else said, too early to tell for sure, but I have a feeling that description's going to stick, at least for the most part. It sounds the way I'd expect Ridley to play, and that's what I'm seeing out of him so far.
 

NocturnalQuill

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#61
We could try to predict where Ridley will end up tier-wise by comparing him to characters with similar attributes. Which other characters are fast heavyweights with crazy damage and good air games, but large hurtboxes and lackluster recovery?
 
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#62
We could try to predict where Ridley will end up tier-wise by comparing him to characters with similar attributes. Which other characters are fast heavyweights with crazy damage and good air games, but large hurtboxes and lackluster recovery?
Bowser and Donkey Kong are the closest matches for that type that I know of and they are 24th and 22nd on the smash 4 tier list respectively.
 

NocturnalQuill

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#63
Bowser and Donkey Kong are the closest matches for that type that I know of and they are 24th and 22nd on the smash 4 tier list respectively.
Fortunately for Ridley he seems to be quite a bit faster than those two, so that bodes well for him. I guess it'll be a matter of how much his recovery hinders him, and whether he can escape combos reliably. Any matchup vs a character that can pull off a FIFTY NINE PERCENT punish is going to be tense.
 

Crainy

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#64
I dont really care for tier lists or professional play, but Ridley looks to be the type of character that will be amazing in casual play. Tier lists only really apply to the highest level of play under certain circumstances, and in casual play characters that are usually not considered to be that good often times do really well, like Ike. Strong, relatively fast attacks aswell and some intuitive moves will make Ridley a powerful character to play as for most people, regardless if he will be viable in tournaments or not.
 

Kopy

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#65
Fortunately for Ridley he seems to be quite a bit faster than those two, so that bodes well for him. I guess it'll be a matter of how much his recovery hinders him, and whether he can escape combos reliably. Any matchup vs a character that can pull off a FIFTY NINE PERCENT punish is going to be tense.

He is also a lot lighter than Bowser/DK it seems, which doesn't help his survivability. His Nair seems like an amazing tool, but I don't think it's useful for escaping combos as it is too slow/ arcs. Bowser's and DK's Nair are better suited for this.

His specials seem really risky and I seriously hate the directions his upB goes and wish it would be fully angleable..

As for every kind of discussion, we have to see. But I really don't think Ridley will be anywhere above mid tier (if that), large hurtbox + relatively low weight for that volume + bad recovery isn't a good combination in Smash.
 
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#66
He is also a lot lighter than Bowser/DK it seems, which doesn't help his survivability. His Nair seems like an amazing tool, but I don't think it's useful for escaping combos as it is too slow/ arcs. Bowser's and DK's Nair are better suited for this.

His specials seem really risky and I seriously hate the directions his upB goes and wish it would be fully angleable..

As for every kind of discussion, we have to see. But I really don't think Ridley will be anywhere above mid tier (if that), large hurtbox + relatively low weight for that volume + bad recovery isn't a good combination in Smash.
Uh, I can't really think of anyone else in Smash fitting those criteria to provide a precedent.

Ridley's recovery looks decent. Not great, but decent. Multiple jumps, side b grab that moves him forward can seriously turn the tables if not respected, and his up b, though limited in direction, is super strong and risky to interrupt. Use your options intelligently and he should make it back from anywhere.

His disadvantage similarly does not look too bad. Again the multiple jumps help, and a suprisingly quick stall-then-fall in combination with those should take care of overzealous jugglers. Once they start waiting on the ground instead you can mix up with nair, bair or side b.

That about sums up Ridley. He doesn't have loads of extreme strengths but the weaknesses of his class are not as pronounced either. He straddles the line between a middleweight and superheavy.
 
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#68
Idk I think everyone is underestimating his damage output, juggle ability, and means to contest opponents in disadvantage. I think he's going to be better than you all think.
 

NocturnalQuill

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#69
Here's a little thought experiment I just came up with: put Ridley's strength, speed, and recovery on a character with an average size hurtbox. How broken is that character?
 

BlackCephie

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#71
As it looks now, and how he feels to play for me personally, I think he will not only be viable, but at least high tier. The criticisms of his up b are fair, but when done correctly and mixed up with his extra jumps its actually pretty hard to challenge. He has the option to bait out edgeguards, and recovery low is very effective. Its too much of a risk for most characters to go low, and will likely get punished by the up b after startup.

Also, DASH CANCEL TILTS. Ridley's tilts are VERY strong. His up angled ftilt can blow up Marth and Fox short hop nairs and fairs (its pretty much a great anti-air in general), and dash cancel ftilt and dtilt can be mixed into 3 jump mixup to give him a lot of options in neutral. I also use b reversal plasma breath in between tilt pressure and jump pressure to create space, harass, edgeguard and setup. Dont be afraid of the startup. if you have space to charge it up then you get a stream of fire that eats other projectiles and keeps going. even if your opponent's projectiles are fasters, firing off intermittent charged plasma is a good way to shake things up in neutral and remind opponents that Ridley can counter camping, and get punishes from it. Messing with the timing/amount of charge also mixes things up and can mess with your opponents timings. To be honest, aside from him just being big bodied, He really doesnt seem to have that many weaknesses from what I can tell so far. I was getting whooped by Crom until I started dash cancel tilting and keeping my mobility my main focus. After that it became very easy to catch his landings because dtilt will low profile the sword on short hop approaches AND outrange it. Essentially they fall right on the tip of the tail, while Ridley's hurt box is way back at his left shoulder.

I didnt even mention the aerials and side b because they are just strong, period. Down b is great as a mixup in neutral when youve conditioned your opponent to respect your tilts. All in all, a solid fighter who represents the big boys very well.
 

BlackCephie

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#72
Very viable. Up b really isnt bad (has its weaknesses, but def not bad like people seem to think right now), and he doesnt really have a single bad move.
 

Ridley_Prime

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#75
Skewer (down B) is just situational more than anything, but yeah, I guess it’s fair to say.
 

Iwan

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#77
He’s good.

Have used pretty much only him to unlock “elite smash”, which, lol, probably a useless game type, but 1 million + GSP - point I’m making is i’ve gotten in over 200 matches with him.

Like any big character, big hit boxes/multi hit attacks are a pain in the ***, but when you factor in his aerials, the ridiculous damage output on everything from his tilts to his projectile, and his ability to grab what’s essentially a guaranteed KO once the opponent’s % is high enough...like I said. He’s good.

High tier? Too early to tell, but he’s certainly not the third or second worst character in the entire game, per wary tier lists from players like Zero. If I had to grade him now, probably Mid? He’s great in a good player’s hands, with a solid tool kit. Kind of where I’m at so far (also by far my favorite character, so far).
 

Anomilus

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#78
If I had to list Ridley's weaknesses, it would be:

- Bad Disadvantage State: A typical problem for big bodies, but it feels especially bad for Ridley. Problem is he's juggle food and has difficulty getting back on ground without getting punished. Other big bodies have something to help, but Ridley can't do nearly as much aside from drifting to the edge of the stage and hoping to limit the opponent's pursuit options.

- Subpar Recovery: As mentioned it isn't nearly as bad as some people are making it to be. Ridley's Up B just needs to be treated differently from regular angled Up B moves. There's also Side B and air dodging from above the stage. With that said his odds of recovery drop significantly if he's interrupted even a little bit or ends up off stage without all of his jumps.

- Somewhat Wonky Hitboxes: Now here's something I think needs to be discussed. At times it just seems Ridley can struggle to land hits or at times trades with attacks when it seems like it should have been a clean hit. To note:
> NAir seems to give him a rather sizable hurtbox , and I've found myself trading when trying to press my attack.
> His tilts are quick and effective. At the same time they require some precision and tend to strike in a very similar space in front of Ridley. This makes him pretty darn susceptible to attacks aimed directly at his head. This can be mitigated by remaining on the move, but it also makes it tougher to properly space and hit the opponent. I suppose skill level may play a part in this, but it feels like other big bodies don't have this issue
> Up Smash is especially wonky. It seems using a reverse USmash is more sensible due to how it starts. Even then it's not easy to hit with.

Overall I can understand how he's turning players off from pursuing him further. He has difficulty escaping offensive pressure or turning the tables. For his size he has relatively few large attacks and thus relies on repeated use of certain moves to get things started. It feels especially bad to be off the stage and trying to recover in rather predictable manners when one expects a winged creature to have an easier time than most.

...

Buuuuut I also am starting to think people are sleeping on Ridley and soembody's gonna eventually pull the rug from under the doubters' feet.

Ridley has a pretty bad disadvantage state, and he also has a Very Good Advantage State. This is because for a big body Ridley's agility greatly bolsters his offense. Once Ridley starts his offense he can stick on you like glue. And the moment you flinch and try and protect yourself, you're going to the ledge.

Let's talk about that: At any point in time, if you're facing a decent Ridley, you're going off the ledge. And when you shed the timidness of handling Ridley off stage, you realize Ridley has a VERY potent edgeguard game (and I'm not talking about Plasma Breath). NAir is quick and hits widely around him making it fairly easy to land (and is less likely to trade on an opponent focused on recovery). FAir can easily carry opponents far off the stage, and Ridley can still have an air jump left to help him return to the stage.

Then there's Side B. Which I realized can become a very dangerous gimping tool against any characters not above the stage. I was still in the mindset of the opponent air dodging the move and leaving Ridley in an very bad situation. Then I remember that air dodging at any level less than above the stage is practically suicide. Basically if the opponent is within grabbing range, they cannot dodge! If they dodge, they die. At best they can hit Ridley out of it. Worst case for Ridley, they hit him away from the stage and he possibly gets reversed gimped. But if Ridley's between them and the stage, getting hit won't be that big of a deal. I'd say it's worth the risk though since a successful grab practically awards Ridley a free jump as long as he quickly releases the victim. Or he can just Ridleycide.

And finally there the more obvious things such as Ridley's range on his tilts, a pretty good combo game, high damage, a good amount of kill options, and a multi-projectile attack that provides heavy pressure.

There's also Down B. Honestly if the opponent isn't trying to press their own offense, I see no reason not to try and land it as long as it's carefully space. It can be punished, but there are more punishable moves out there. The thing is Ridley can usually be doing something less risky with smaller but accumulating rewards, which is more of a reason to not use the move. Testing the sweetspot of the move, I found it unexpectedly lenient. It's only when the opponent's a little too close that the attack deals the pitful sourspot hit leaving Ridley open to punishment. Just try to hit with the very tip, and not against an approaching target. Then if it whiffs, odds are Ridley will recover before the opponent can punish it.
 
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BlackCephie

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203
#79
Down isnt a bad move, its just not a brain dead move. Its something you can throw out as a mixup with your tilts. Certainly not something you throw out frequently, but can easily create a comeback situation with one hit. Also worth noting that it can reliably punish a shield drop.
 

Grie

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 30, 2018
Messages
76
Switch FC
SW-4030-3923-6822
#80
Right now ridley seems to have a lot of issues. The game is only a week old so new tech could be found to help him but compared to the other heavys, I feel like he needs buffs the most.

He’s not all bad tho. I want to touch on is recovery. At high percents, your opponent AS to respect it. Up b is kill move in of itself and can lead to a stage spike and side b can give you a really janky kill without having to trading stocks if pulled off correctly.
 
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