Where would Mario stand in the new tier list?

[Maple/DBK]

With the huge Amsa uproar with Yoshi at Apex,potentially placing him somewhere in the A tier, where do you guys think Mario places in the tier list? Higher or Lower than he's at now?

 

[Britex]

I think Mario is better than both Ganon and Luigi, and I believe he gravitates between 11-15. Right now I would rank the A tier as follow : Samus(9),Doc(10),Mario(11), Pikachu(12),Yoshi(13) and Luigi(14), with Ganon finally sitting at 15. However, it's possible Yoshi might eclipse both Marios, in which case he would take Doc's place in my ranking and the order would stay the same.

 

[Sheepomg]

Amsa's defiance of the tier list speaks to its credibility. Why speculate? To turn an illusory advantage in our favor?

 

[Soupeschleg]

I think Mario is better than both Ganon and Luigi, and I believe he gravitates between 11-15. Right now I would rank the A tier as follow : Samus(9),Doc(10),Mario(11), Pikachu(12),Yoshi(13) and Luigi(14), with Ganon finally sitting at 15. However, it's possible Yoshi might eclipse both Marios, in which case he would take Doc's place in my ranking and the order would stay the same.

Mario better than Luigi? I'm interested to hear your reasoning here.

I think Mario seems slightly limited compared to Doc and even more when compared to Luigi

 

[MudkipUniverse]

it seems like everyone at apex had a pretty easy run besides the top 3 (m2k was sick, hax didn't show up, axe lost to sfat, westballz gets 33rd). aMSa should actually play a better character, because how perfectly he plays Yoshi doesn't pay off as much as the high tiers. His run at apex was ridiculous actually

11th place seems like the highest I would give Yoshi, but I gave him 14th. one time I saw someone give him 10th

My tier list:
S tier: Fox, Marth, Falco
A tier: Shiek, Puff, Peach
B tier: Ice climbers, Falcon, Pikachu, Samus, Doc, Luigi, Mario, Yoshi, Ganon
haven't fully decided everything else

also a rookie is amazing, 49th at apex 2015 is way better then 25th at apex 2010. if mang0 vs A rookie happens at evo 2015, I think mang0 will probably get rekt

 

[Sir Bubbles]

With everyone overating Yoshi and Pikachu, you can expect everybody to underate Doc and Mario. With that said, this is how the mid tiers will go in the new tier list:

1. Pikachu 2. Yoshi 3. Samus 4. Luigi 5. Doc 6. Mario

It's quite sad to see Mario falling under the radar just because Yoshi and Pikachu are seeing success.

 

[Britex]

Mario better than Luigi? I'm interested to hear your reasoning here.

I think Mario seems slightly limited compared to Doc and even more when compared to Luigi

Well, it seems to me that Luigi's is a limited character, moreso than both Mario and Doc, mostly because of his movement. Melee offers a lot of movement options to all characters, and some benefits from having character specific movement technique. Luigi has the best wavedash in the game, but his terrible traction gives him awful control of his character on the ground and in the air. I don't think his wavedash makes up for that. Reducing his number of options when it comes to movement makes him predictable in his approaches.

Also his recovery his very bad. Far worse than Mario or Doc. He can go far with it, but recovering without taking damage or recovering from a diagonal angle are both very hard for him.

Luigi has some really fantastic moves in the air on the ground, but his movement restrict their usages.

Overall, I think Mario has a better recovery and better mus overall. Luigi fares better vs spacies and falcon, but I think Mario is better vs the rest except maybe Marth.


Mario really gives the impression of being a limited character because no one is trying to do optimal stuff with him. For now, anyway.

 

[Soupeschleg]

Luigi players have been getting the results lately though. Obviously the players are pushing their character forward, but some of the credit has to go to the character itself.

Who is even pushing Mario forward?

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Mario is very underrated, as well as pretty undeveloped. the landing hit of dair seems like something Mario mains should use more

 

[TehGuitarLord]

The problem with Mario is that nobody is using him. Sure there's A Rookie, but as amazing as he is, that's just one player, and one play style. There's not many players outside of him to watch and observe, take notes, etc, which severely limits Mario at the moment.

What if he could execute up b walljumps as perfectly as aMSa could throw eggs on the ledge, parry? What if he could shield drop as good as aMSa and Axe, the only two players making people consider Pikachu and Yoshi being above every other mid tier character?

Sadly, until A Rookie becomes Axe or aMSa in terms of technical prowess, or just pushing Mario as best as he can, Mario will remain at the bottom of the mid tiers. I think that outside of the top 8 from the last tier list, Samus, Pikachu, Luigi, Doc, Yoshi, Ganon, and maybe even Young Link could pass Mario. Should Mario be that low? No. He has a lot of untapped potential that nobody has perfected yet, and not enough players are using him seriously. As a Mario main myself, this is sad to see, but it's only inevitable in the current meta.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

The problem with Mario is that nobody is using him. Sure there's A Rookie, but as amazing as he is, that's just one player, and one play style. There's not many players outside of him to watch and observe, take notes, etc, which severely limits Mario at the moment.

What if he could execute up b walljumps as perfectly as aMSa could throw eggs on the ledge, parry? What if he could shield drop as good as aMSa and Axe, the only two players making people consider Pikachu and Yoshi being above every other mid tier character?

Sadly, until A Rookie becomes Axe or aMSa in terms of technical prowess, or just pushing Mario as best as he can, Mario will remain at the bottom of the mid tiers. I think that outside of the top 8 from the last tier list, Samus, Pikachu, Luigi, Doc, Yoshi, Ganon, and maybe even Young Link could pass Mario. Should Mario be that low? No. He has a lot of untapped potential that nobody has perfected yet, and not enough players are using him seriously. As a Mario main myself, this is sad to see, but it's only inevitable in the current meta.

Mario I think could get to #12 or something if the meta was pushed.

you could do the "Doraki instant ledgejump" to Bair someone on the stage. you could combo the landing hit of dair into something. more use of the fantastic nair.

 

[TehGuitarLord]

I agree. Mario also has a lot of great shield drop options and it's a technique in general that I feel is underutilized. All of his aerials work out of it, and for that fact so many options are covered. For example, if Falco is shield pressuring you on a platform, you could shield drop into anything. I would personally go for shield drop -> jump -> dair -> chain grabs until back throw can kill, but that's just one option. I've tested this, and Falco can't really DI out of down throw chain grabs until around 120-130ish if I'm not mistaken , so it's a great option. We need to see more stuff like this implemented, and then Mario could rise to the top of mid tiers. I think he's better than Yoshi, Ganon, and Luigi, but we have nobody to prove that.

 

[Maple/DBK]

Let's hope one day, another Mario main that is better than the rest of us can stand up next to A Rookie and give another playstyle to Mario, to give him more variety. I think he stands higher than he is at now, but we only have A Rookie to back up this argument.

 

[TehGuitarLord]

Let's hope one day, another Mario main that is better than the rest of us can stand up next to A Rookie and give another playstyle to Mario, to give him more variety. I think he stands higher than he is at now, but we only have A Rookie to back up this argument.

I would be glad to be that guy... once I go to a tournament, get my license, and/or go to college

 

[Maple/DBK]

I would be glad to be that guy... once I go to a tournament, get my license, and/or go to college

Same here for my region, I got my Mario called good once, felt good.

 

[C-SAF]

I love Mario, but I really see him as a bad captain falcon. He's definitely below Yoshi:

S tier- Marth, Fox, Falco
A tier- Shiek, Puff, Peach
B tier- Ic's, Falcon, Yoshi, Pikachu, Samus, Luigi
C tier- Doc, Ganon, Mario, YL/Link
Then the rest

His range, low kill power, and only average speed really hinder him, so I find it hard to see him as better than Doc/Ganon. Yoshi and pika might even be better than falcon considering how bad falcon is vs spacies, so theres no way Mario is better than them. After my C tier I think the characters get considerably worse, so Mario is definitely closer to B than D tier.

 

[Soupeschleg]

I love Mario, but I really see him as a bad captain falcon. He's definitely below Yoshi:

S tier- Marth, Fox, Falco
A tier- Shiek, Puff, Peach
B tier- Ic's, Falcon, Yoshi, Pikachu, Samus
C tier- Doc, Ganon, Mario, YL/Link
Then the rest

His range, low kill power, and only average speed really hinder him, so I find it hard to see him as better than Doc/Ganon. Yoshi and pika might even be better than falcon considering how bad falcon is vs spacies, so theres no way Mario is better than them. After my C tier I think the characters get considerably worse, so Mario is definitely closer to B than D tier.

Luigi should be in your B tier imo

 

[C-SAF]

Luigi should be in your B tier imo

Mario on my mind made me forget luigi, thnx for pointing that out

 

[MudkipUniverse]

ok, off topic, but who thinks Yoshi is the most overrated character in the game

 

[Soupeschleg]

ok, off topic, but who thinks Yoshi is the most overrated character in the game

who thinks yoshi's good? There's only one player that has done anything of note with him lol. People know the character has potential and a high technical ceiling, but I haven't seen anyone saying "Yoshi is so good"

Ganondorf is the most overrated character imo

 

[C-SAF]

ok, off topic, but who thinks Yoshi is the most overrated character in the game

I still think he's underrated. There seems to be this stigma that just because only one person can succeed with a character it makes that character's results invalid. I actually think Yoshi and Pikachu are every bit as viable as Captain falcon. S2J is freakin amazing and he's not placing as high as Amsa or Axe. Not knowing a matchup maybe part of it, but Im tempted to say that Yoshi and Pika might just be better characters when u look at their tools.

Right now, I kinda agree with armada that peach is the most overrated. She has a near unwinnable matchup vs puff, and the strategy of camping platforms against her is pretty legit. She is really too slow to do anything about it. For that reason, her position on my personal tier list is really only based on what her tourney results look like. In theory she could even be below Falcon, Pika, Yoshi, Ic's, and Samus. Im not willing to stir the pot that much and actually say it should be like that, but there is at least a case to be made, which is interesting.

 

[a rookie]

imo, I think Luigi has better MUs and even w/ his predictable approach and easy edge guarding recovery, is still better than Mario overall. He hits hard, does more damage, and kills. Mario has a long way to go. I think Yoshi has better potential than Mario too, just combo-wise and kill-wise again. Ganon, I think he's even, might be a little better since he can hit a spacie 4 times and that's a stock. Mario is an amazing character, don't get me wrong, but a LONG WAY to go. I've learned a couple new things.

Don't think of me as the best Mario ever either. I'm nothing compared to Brown Mario, and won't be anything compared to him until I start doing more damage. Neither is Scorp. Scorp is nothing to Brown Mario, now that was a Mario main. He has only a handful of videos, but I can tell by his gameplay, this guy knew his MUs and knew what the hell he was doing.

I'm making a video w/ the dair usage, how it can be implemented more. I'll post it when it's done. Got all the necessary clips, just got to edit it a little better

 

[ZomBiehn]

Mario has the potential to be top 10 for sure, fast,smashes have kill power, and has good combo set ups, not to mention a extremely deadly and easy to land meteor smash, Mario's a beast, still prefer DrM though myself

 

[a rookie]

Mario has the potential to be number 1. But that's the same for every other main and their respective characters. Thing is, people don't want to put in hard time and effort. So they pick an "easier" character w/ better MUs(Falco/Fox/Sheik/Marth/etc.).

 

[Theftz22]

Mario has the ability to never get edgehogged: that's huge. Also, as speed is becoming more and more important in the modern metagame, mario may see more use than doc.

 

[C-SAF]

Mario has the ability to never get edgehogged: that's huge. Also, as speed is becoming more and more important in the modern metagame, mario may see more use than doc.

I don't think Mario is noticeably faster than doc, if at all. Im pretty sure every character can be ledge hogged too.

 

[schmooblidon]

I don't think Mario is noticeably faster than doc, if at all. Im pretty sure every character can be ledge hogged too.

Did some testing today and found that Doc actually has a slightly faster airspeed. Everything else seems to be identical, walk speed, dash/run speed, falling speed, fastfall speed, wavedash speed. Btw, I did a ground movement speed comparison for doc yesterday, I can now confirm that these values are the same for Mario.

Conclusion

From slowest to fastest
Chained moonwalks......... 0.86571
Buffer rolling............ 1.00000
Initial moonwalk.......... 1.04524
Max Walk Speed............ 1.10000
Diagonal notch Wavedash... 1.21116
Foxtrot................... 1.28000
= Run..................... 1.50000
= Dash.................... 1.50000
Max angle Wavedash........ 1.89039
Perfect Waveland.......... 2.01000

more info here

Besides that, I think people refer to Mario's faster aerial landing lag when saying he is faster. And the ledgehog thing is referring to up-b walljump.

 

[C-SAF]

Did some testing today and found that Doc actually has a slightly faster airspeed. Everything else seems to be identical, walk speed, dash/run speed, falling speed, fastfall speed, wavedash speed. Btw, I did a ground movement speed comparison for doc yesterday, I can now confirm that these values are the same for Mario.

more info here

Besides that, I think people refer to Mario's faster aerial landing lag when saying he is faster. And the ledgehog thing is referring to up-b walljump.

I think it was the trophy description of doc that started the idea that he was slower. And do u mean Mario can walljump after his up-B?

 

[schmooblidon]

They absolutely must of been refering to landing lag when they wrote that. The only other speed differences are mario's jabs are faster and doc's ftilt is faster.

Yeah, as long as he can touch the wall, theoretically he can't be edgehogged. So he can still be edgehogged if his up-b is only close enough to snap to the ledge, but it's still better then everyone else in the game. Executing an up-b wj when not starting against the wall is insanely hard to do though. The argument really only holds when he is below the edge against the wall before he up-bs.

 

[Soupeschleg]

I'm actually really confident in my own ability to up-b walljump on any ledge because the timing is always the same, so once you learn it...it's there. I'm sure a more dedicated Mario main could get even more mileage out of it than I do.

 

[TehGuitarLord]

If anyone could perfect up b walljumps (against the wall and not against the wall), then that would make Mario so much better alone. However, nobody has been able to do it consistently, so we don't really know what a good player can do with that advantage. We can theorize it, but there's no proof.

I believe that if someone masters this, it would make people question where Mario stands. We know it's possible and we can visualize and believe in what Mario can do, it's just really freaking difficult. I think that day will come, but for 2015, not yet.

 

[C-SAF]

They absolutely must of been refering to landing lag when they wrote that. The only other speed differences are mario's jabs are faster and doc's ftilt is faster.

Yeah, as long as he can touch the wall, theoretically he can't be edgehogged. So he can still be edgehogged if his up-b is only close enough to snap to the ledge, but it's still better then everyone else in the game. Executing an up-b wj when not starting against the wall is insanely hard to do though. The argument really only holds when he is below the edge against the wall before he up-bs.

I never knew this was a thing. I guess this is why I always see scorp on Yoshi's. This isn't game changing but it is cool.

I actually think the people who wrote the trophy descriptions just didnt know what the difference was. Trophies seem to have a lot of factual errors when u read through them. Good thing we got fact checkers.

 

[1MachGO]

If Mario players want to tap the full potential of their character they need to come to terms with two things:

1. Refuse to let Mario get exploited
2. Learn to up-b wall jump with a consistency rate worthy of tournament usage

Of all the mid tiers, I would argue Mario is the least linear. He has at least one mediocre option for every situation and doesn't really have a trait that can be exploited to the point of hopelessness.

To elaborate a bit, look at Luigi and Samus. These are two characters which are ground based out of necessity thanks to their slow and floaty air mobility. What happens when they have to play a character who beats their ground game and forces them into the air? (i.e. Sheik or Marth) They either lose the ground game and get juggled, or they jump in the air and get juggled regardless.

Mario's biggest issue is he has bad range/coverage so he gets camped. Though honestly, this isn't that bad of a flaw in the long run when compared to the fact Luigi/Samus are garbage in the air. Mario's range problem seems to arise most in the neutral. And unlike other situations in the game (comboing, edge guarding, etc.) the neutral is extremely ambiguous. You can see if your opponent is trying to goad you in or space you out and how you approach that situation and whether or not you force yourself into a bad decision is entirely up to you. Being forced onto the ledge isn't even that bad for Mario since his ledge dash is amazing.

In other words, I think Mario's just need to become comfortable with the fact that they should play the neutral as long and as carefully as possible until they really get a sense of their opponent.

 

[EddyBearr]

ok, off topic, but who thinks Yoshi is the most overrated character in the game

I think the most over-rated character goes to either Pikachu, Ganon, or Roy. Yoshi is in limbo -- almost everyone says something else about him.


OT: I think Mario is about where he should be. He's better than Ganon but worse than Doc/Samus.

My tier list:

A+: Fox > Falco
A: Marth > Sheik > Peach > Jigglypuff
A-: Jigglypuff > Ice Climbers > Captain Falcon
B: Samus > Doc = Luigi
C: Mario > Pikachu > Yoshi > Ganon > Young Link
D: Young Link > Link > Zelda > Donkey Kong
F: Mewtwo > Roy > Mr. Game & Watch > Kirby > Ness > Pichu > Bowser

If some Mario main could achieve what Shroomed has, or if a few Mario mains become top 100 players (at least 1 top 50), then I would rate Mario as the lowest B tier as opposed to the highest C tier.

 

[Zalak]

I don't think Doc should be higher than Mario in any tier list. He might be more ACCESSIBLE, but if you ask me, his F Smash range and sex kick put him ahead. ALSO, his FAir...... I know Doc's FAir is more deadly at high %s, but Mario's has combo potential at pretty much any %.

 

[C-SAF]

I don't think Doc should be higher than Mario in any tier list. He might be more ACCESSIBLE, but if you ask me, his F Smash range and sex kick put him ahead. ALSO, his FAir...... I know Doc's FAir is more deadly at high %s, but Mario's has combo potential at pretty much any %.

Doc's sex kick has an interesting property in that it gets stronger the longer its out. This is why most would call it superior as it can just be spammed and it creates a wall that only gets stronger. A well spaced nair makes approaching doc harder because the strong hit comes as ur opponent goes in. Marios can be baited out and punished like any other sex kick without worrying about the strong hit if u avoid the initial hitbox.

 

[schmooblidon]

I don't think Doc should be higher than Mario in any tier list. He might be more ACCESSIBLE, but if you ask me, his F Smash range and sex kick put him ahead. ALSO, his FAir...... I know Doc's FAir is more deadly at high %s, but Mario's has combo potential at pretty much any %.

Being able to kill is more important then being able to combo.

 

[Zalak]

Being able to kill is more important then being able to combo.

But Mario's FAir helps him to kill AND combo. If you FAir someone into the ground, you can easily follow it up with a FSmash. It's also a meteor smash, which is nice. Admittedly though, it doesn't come in handy too often for offstage kills. It's a little easier to land a kill with Doc's FSmash, but it requires high %s. In my opinion, Mario's FSmash is better because it has the duality of helping him with combos and kills.

 

[Zalak]

Doc's sex kick has an interesting property in that it gets stronger the longer its out. This is why most would call it superior as it can just be spammed and it creates a wall that only gets stronger. A well spaced nair makes approaching doc harder because the strong hit comes as ur opponent goes in. Marios can be baited out and punished like any other sex kick without worrying about the strong hit if u avoid the initial hitbox.

I see your point. I prefer Mario's because it can be used to put major distance between you and your opponent in a tight situation, but I definitely see how Doc's can be helpful, especially in neutral.

 

[TehGuitarLord]

Mario's fair is really only used for tech chasing. The meteor is so hard to land and leaves you with so much lag, and also the fact that you can meteor cancel it really easily just makes it so that off stage option is not worth it. You are much better off caping, gimping with up b, throwing out any other aerial, throwing a fireball, or just grabbing ledge. Doc's fair also kills fairly early, killing floaties in the 70-80s.