Where do you think corrin stands in Competive play and tier list?

[Fex13]

Why does everyone say A or B tier? Lol do you guys even know what an A or B tier character looks like? Corrin is definitely not on the same level as Diddy Kong or Cloud, almost everyone on Smashboards overestimates their mains, I don't get it.

definitely not on the same level as cloud...mhm...im interested in why you think it is so clear(pls dont mention limit break), and secondly, cloud is overrated anyway. on diddy kong i actually agree with you.

 

[ShadowKing]

I thought they were C tier. Anyway, sure, if Corrin has undiscovered tech, then they might end up in the upper tiers, but no one said "Oh, well Meta Knight seems bad now, but he'd be high tier if he had some undiscovered tech". Sure enough, Meta Knight had hidden potential in his combo game, and now he's at the (admittedly inaccurate) spot of 10 on the tier list. His combos could have been found earlier, and thus counters could be learned earlier so people wouldn't put him so high, if American players weren't so lazy, they prefer to pick their easy top tiers instead of learning characters with hidden potential, not that I'm exactly hating on all Americans, seeing as I am one, but it took Mexico to learn MK and Japan to learn Mewtwo and Greninja before anyone else. However, I honestly can't imagine Corrin having ANY hidden tech at all, no combo throw and with weird stipulations to their one projectile, I can't see anything happening. If I'm wrong, I'll humbly apologize.

Don't know how you would put Corrin into Ctier if he can fight ZSS,Rosa and the Atier characters

 

[G-Guy]

tbh, the only glaring weakness I see about Corrin is the sub-par recovery. DL, DFSCB and Bair can mix things up a little, but overall it's still pretty linear and lacks versitility and range, hence Corrin won't be in S.

For the rest of the placement though, I am not certain and only time will tell.

 

[Jamble]

We don't have near enough time to make a good judgment, but I will say this: Corrin has a couple big things working against him/her. One is that Corrin has really inconsistent kill power. Corrin's kill moves are fairly predictable and require very precise spacing. Any character that is decently fast can get in on Corrin and Corrin has a very difficult time repositioning properly to actually utilize his/her stronger moves that actually have kill potential once that happens. Against any decently competent opponent, They end up surviving to pretty high percentages on a regular basis for me. Could also be that I'm a bad Corrin (I tend to play Mario bros and Bowser, who do not use disjoints and the kind of spacing Corrin requires).

The other (related issue) is that Corrin is just too damned slow to outspace a lot of opponents properly. Yeah, Corrin has a lot of cool movement and maneuvering options due to her unique moveset. The problem is that I find there are few real-world situations where Corrin actually gets the opportunity to utilize them. Neutral B is a pretty good projectile with a good potential kill finisher when the melee aspect is used, but it's vulnerable to aerial approaches. Corrin's ground and air speed are both nothing special. Any stage with higher or fewer platforms (such as Town and City) limits your Side-B movement options immensely, and Side B's grounded hop comes out pretty slow. Corrin has an amazing nair, but that also has enough ending lag to make it a subpar "get away from me" option, as the end lag makes it require decent spacing and/or use through something like a platform to be safe.

Corrin really lacks a ton of entirely safe and unpredictable options due to this nature of her spacing game, and her lackluster speed. And because of this predictability, I feel like Corrin requires a lot of precision and great spacing without getting enough reward from how involved, technical, and precise her player has to be. This isn't me dissing Corrin's viability, but these are to me the definitive flaws that will hold Corrin back.

Also, a character doing well against a few top-tiers doesn't make that character top tier necessarily. It could be just more of a niche strength against those particular movesets.

 

[Nu~]

Great post by Shaya on Corrin's viability

Corrin is hard to talk about at this stage, just has this very diverse kit with about 50 extra options overloaded into every move. It's not as straight forward a result as how Bayonetta's specials (or mechanics) work so how they come to play out may take a bit of time.

They have a very good ftilt for poking, and it can set up juggles at various percent. Down tilt and up tilt are both fantastic at comboing, feasibly even at kill percent; up tilt seems to essentially be a god tier hitbox that cannot be beaten from below no matter what.
Neutral B functions almost too well as a landing projectile option (for wavebouncing or whatever); if you only have horizontal line tools, trying to punish it and get through can be complicated (and dangerous).

Nair is a huge button, makes her landing and non-commital zoning really superb and easy. No real thought necessary for this move and can easily find you set ups into just about every other move she has. She controls so much if she gets you with nair near the ground. Doesn't really make sense how huge this thing is.

Fair is essentially the lower damage, slightly less range (only now though after buffs), 1 frame slower start up Marth forward air with lower landing lag, less end lag, an applicable auto cancel, and Marth's melee tipper knockback angle; making it a somewhat potent wall and stupendously good at stringing itself together. The total potential of this move is obviously high, restricted by the slower ground specs a bit, but has a lot of room to find follow ups or other things from.

That plus a few awkward but potent long range kill moves in side-b and forward smash (up smash is crazy too but hard to land), and you have a pretty "big" character.
However, with all these fantastic tools, you wonder where the glue is. The lack of an intended/obvious game plan makes for a pretty enjoyable experience with different play styles from just about every Corn I've seen thus far.
Give it a bit of time though and I think they're just going to go be ZSS-styled game play; her kit didn't really have anything which defined her play style so it came down to optimizing safety, movement and punishes and hopefully having it work out. For ZSS it worked out.

For Corrin it will very likely work out... there just doesn't seem to be any real exploitable weaknesses to this character's kit.
Can easily feel that she's a stronger character than Marth, significantly easier with similar "potential" reward to Robin, and idk about Ike but I'm sure he's salty about at least one or two things ("why is my nair the 2x as slow in every way, yet I still get so much mileage out of this, my god when the Corns figure this one out *sadface*").

Oh, and on the point of Ike. Ike's never really beaten Marth in this game.
Marth has always had a significantly better mid-range game than Ike, the reactive punishment factor carried over from Brawl without too much loss. I'd say it's fair to have Ike edge it out due to being much easier to execute with his grab game, but Ike is one of those characters Marth gets a lot out of grabbing due to his option coverage as well.

 

[ShadowKing]

We don't have near enough time to make a good judgment, but I will say this: Corrin has a couple big things working against him/her. One is that Corrin has really inconsistent kill power. Corrin's kill moves are fairly predictable and require very precise spacing. Any character that is decently fast can get in on Corrin and Corrin has a very difficult time repositioning properly to actually utilize his/her stronger moves that actually have kill potential once that happens. Against any decently competent opponent, They end up surviving to pretty high percentages on a regular basis for me. Could also be that I'm a bad Corrin (I tend to play Mario bros and Bowser, who do not use disjoints and the kind of spacing Corrin requires).

The other (related issue) is that Corrin is just too damned slow to outspace a lot of opponents properly. Yeah, Corrin has a lot of cool movement and maneuvering options due to her unique moveset. The problem is that I find there are few real-world situations where Corrin actually gets the opportunity to utilize them. Neutral B is a pretty good projectile with a good potential kill finisher when the melee aspect is used, but it's vulnerable to aerial approaches. Corrin's ground and air speed are both nothing special. Any stage with higher or fewer platforms (such as Town and City) limits your Side-B movement options immensely, and Side B's grounded hop comes out pretty slow. Corrin has an amazing nair, but that also has enough ending lag to make it a subpar "get away from me" option, as the end lag makes it require decent spacing and/or use through something like a platform to be safe.

Corrin really lacks a ton of entirely safe and unpredictable options due to this nature of her spacing game, and her lackluster speed. And because of this predictability, I feel like Corrin requires a lot of precision and great spacing without getting enough reward from how involved, technical, and precise her player has to be. This isn't me dissing Corrin's viability, but these are to me the definitive flaws that will hold Corrin back.

Also, a character doing well against a few top-tiers doesn't make that character top tier necessarily. It could be just more of a niche strength against those particular movesets.

She might be slow but what backs her slowness up is that most moves have very great range.Her fsmash might be predictable but if they roll back you hit them with the tip and that sents them far back plus a predicted roll can be punishable with dsmash since it covers both sides

 

[WhiteMageBD]

I've worked with studios, formerly community manager at MP. No it doesn't.

The video is inferring far more than is really said in the article. So much language isn't used at all. Don't defend this stuff, it's just drama and clickbait. There WILL be a part time dev dedicated to ongoing network maintanance and essential low level code patching.

we cant really argue with this debate without any real evidence yet, both of are points are not full proof, i apologize if im wrong, but we'll just have to see if we get anymore patches or not.

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

Corrin's mobility is Ike levels without the weight or strength, they have poor kill power, average frame data, overall not the best damage output, almost no combos that don't even deal a lot of damage, and a subpar recovery. Cloud and CF, on the other hand, have absurd kill power, godlike mobility, better survivability (more so in CF's case) with better combos that deal high damage, great frame data, and subpar recoveries. Now who thinks Corrin is on the same level as them?

 

[Fex13]

Corrin's mobility is Ike levels without the weight or strength, they have poor kill power, average frame data, overall not the best damage output, almost no combos that don't even deal a lot of damage, and a subpar recovery. Cloud and CF, on the other hand, have absurd kill power, godlike mobility, better survivability (more so in CF's case) with better combos that deal high damage, great frame data, and subpar recoveries. Now who thinks Corrin is on the same level as them?

cloud having better combos than corrin. lol.
poor kill power. okay. i'll stop here.

 

[ShadowKing]

Corrin's mobility is Ike levels without the weight or strength, they have poor kill power, average frame data, overall not the best damage output, almost no combos that don't even deal a lot of damage, and a subpar recovery. Cloud and CF, on the other hand, have absurd kill power, godlike mobility, better survivability (more so in CF's case) with better combos that deal high damage, great frame data, and subpar recoveries. Now who thinks Corrin is on the same level as them?

Yes I do because first of all corrin has hight kill potential only lacking in throw kills.He has many space options and has a recovery that can be mixed up.She stands in high b tier

 

[Fex13]

Yes I do because first of all corrin has hight kill potential only lacking in throw kills.He has many space options and has a recovery that can be mixed up.She stands in high b tier

i could also see low A Tier, but whatever. definitely viable. that is all that matters.
i like how he says that CF is soooo good and better than corrin while completely ignoring the glaring weaknesses that CF has. i believe corrin is a BIT worse than cloud, but definitely corrin is going to have a much better match up spread than CF by any means, since CF is damn exploitable. oh, and CF vs corrin face to face...all CF has is a dash grab read (or raptor boost), thats it. he cant get in on corrin.

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

i could also see low A Tier, but whatever. definitely viable. that is all that matters.
i like how he says that CF is soooo good and better than corrin while completely ignoring the glaring weaknesses that CF has. i believe corrin is a BIT worse than cloud, but definitely corrin is going to have a much better match up spread than CF by any means, since CF is damn exploitable. oh, and CF vs corrin face to face...all CF has is a dash grab read (or raptor boost), thats it. he cant get in on corrin.

You seriously have too much denial within you. Corrin's side smash is incredibly hard to sweetspot due to its range, their down smash is weak unless you sweetspot it, though it's easier to land than the side smash, it's still by no means easy when you have an opponent with a working controller, and up smash, you'd really have to be in denial to think that this is a good move, sure, it's sort of strong when sweetspotted, but you're rarely going to do so unless your opponent is foolish enough to challenge it. Additionally, you have yet to provide any combos that aren't 2-4 forward airs, and you deny Falcon's spot on the tier list, the bias is very clear here. None of you have provided substantial proof that Corrin is even above Luigi, whereas I can prove that they're not.

 

[Fex13]

You seriously have too much denial within you. Corrin's side smash is incredibly hard to sweetspot due to its range, their down smash is weak unless you sweetspot it, though it's easier to land than the side smash, it's still by no means easy when you have an opponent with a working controller, and up smash, you'd really have to be in denial to think that this is a good move, sure, it's sort of strong when sweetspotted, but you're rarely going to do so unless your opponent is foolish enough to challenge it. Additionally, you have yet to provide any combos that aren't 2-4 forward airs, and you deny Falcon's spot on the tier list, the bias is very clear here. None of you have provided substantial proof that Corrin is even above Luigi, whereas I can prove that they're not.

first of all, when talking about kill power, i wasnt talking about his smashes...i rarely ever use corrin's smashes to kill. his kill moves are mainly upair (which is easy to set up) and side-b (also fairly easy to set up), additionally counter(even though counter shouldnt be considered too much, since...well...it is a counter.) oh and back air... secondly, you telling us, 2-4 forward airs is the only thing corrin has, clearly shows me that you barely play the character at all...this is incredibly...ignorant.
true-combos corrins has: DFS to full hop DL tipper, DFS to pin and kick,DFS to Fsmash, weak hit of DL kick into aerials, Fair to DFS in the air, DFS into footstool into dair into pin( even though pin isnt true), dtilit to utilit, dtilt to upair, dtilt to reverse grab, landing nair to anything (preferebly footstool) into more aerials, nair into bair, DFS to dash attack, falling fair to pin at very low percents, DFS to uair, DFS to bite, falling fair to footstool to nair to bair( or alternatively use another fair in the air and then footstool) those are just the true ones (depending on percent and character, if the opponent is above 80% the DFS combos are very easy to do and deadly with tipper DL)
now, give me cloud's true combos. very curious.
then, im not denying falcon's spot by any means. he is about where he should be and a good character. he just lacks a good mixup game. all he has is his speed. if you cut him off coming to you, it is very very difficult for falcon, hence why he isnt at the top of the tier list if he is so fast, does have so good combos, good recovery, is heavy and kills fast. sounds like a top contender but wait...yea. i like falcon very much and im not biased lol. i wish marth was good to main him again, but he just isnt. corrin is just a very complete character that has no true weakness aside from very mediocre recovery, but still, not bad. what makes corrin so good is his mixup game and the tools he has for each situation. he isnt just straightforward. and i think you dont really realize, what makes corrin such a solid character. great neutral, great mixups, decent combo game, has easy kill confirms at higher percent, decent kill throw, mobility is far from slow but also far from captain falcon mobility but fast enough for how corrin is played. corrin threatens space so well, that opponents HAVE to respect it due to the lance and overall range, causing opponents to shield even if you arent that close which opens up grab opportunities. corrins frame trapping is also very strong. he is good at playing footsies. but corrin is also relatively easy to gimp and can have problems against characters like fox who can camp with a projectile and otherwise go in on you if you become impatient. corrin is probably at his worst at CQC. and so far only fox can do that pretty reliably, since he can also force camping. you can brick wall the rest. oh and his frame data is actually better than average, just sayin'.
and now for the last point...im really curious for your proof that luigi is above corrin. really.
ill compare both for you and then you can comment if you want.
luigi is slower than corrin with terrible air mobility. luigi doesnt have good kill setups, whereas corrin has. luigi only has reliably low percent combos, corrin has combos at any %, corrin's neutral is much better. corrin plays footsies better. both arent the best at approaching, which, in corrin's case, is somehow mitigated by how fast side-b comes out and the threating of space i meantioned before. luigi just loses against some top tiers/high high tiers. corrin isnt clearly disadvanteged as far as i can tell, except against fox. being able to set up into one of your kill move is a huge deal, and corrin is able to do that. luigi edgeguards a little bit better i would say, though. at least against non linear recovery, that you can just side b with corrin.
really, im not denying anything, corrin is a very solid and complete character, and that completeness makes him good. just think about side-b for that matter. which character has a move that is: a movement tool, a spacing tool, a combo tool, a killing tool AND a recovery tool( depending on stage) all in once that comes out incredibly fast.
for some reason you are just seeking negatives without providing actual evidence and falls argument (only 2-4 fair combos for example) without taking the positives into account that absolutely outshine the negatives and help to play around them. and that is important at the end of the day, cause each and every character does have weaknesses (even sheik, yea)
there is absolutely no reason for luigi being above corrin.

but everyone has their own opinion i guess, and if you think corrin is c-d or even e tier, well then, thats ok.

 

[Balloonicorn]

All the buzz around Bayonetta is really overshadowing Corrin's release spotlight so it seems like it will be a while before we can really get a solidified opinion. That being said, I'd like to be cautiously optimistic and put Corrin at mid-tier, right below the Pits but above Peach on the 4BR tier list, with potential to move up or down of course. I feel like Corrin has some really polarizing matchups and overall I don't think he/she would end up being better than any of the current high tiers (again, in regards to the 4BR list) but at the very least, I could see corrin rising to the level of luigi/falcon/yoshi.

I feel like his/her aerials and the dragon fang shot are too good for the character to really be *that* bad. Dragon Lunge seems pretty gimmicky and I know it can lead to kill set-ups and some weird interactions with platforms and ledges but I don't see it really being that useful considering how slow it is, other than for a super precise kill set-up. Recovery is mediocre but it's barely good enough I guess.

I really like Corrin and I want nothing more than for him/her to end up being a good character that can compete with the rest. It seems unlikely that something super broken will be developed for Corrin's metagame- it feels like the character was designed with too much "fairness" in mind, having great tools but too many meaningful tradeoffs (other than the counter being absurd but that hardly matters for competitive play. Maybe if the counter was more in line with other counters we could have had that power shifted into the other more important special moves and people would complain less about the character.)

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

first of all, when talking about kill power, i wasnt talking about his smashes...i rarely ever use corrin's smashes to kill. his kill moves are mainly upair (which is easy to set up) and side-b (also fairly easy to set up), additionally counter(even though counter shouldnt be considered too much, since...well...it is a counter.) oh and back air... secondly, you telling us, 2-4 forward airs is the only thing corrin has, clearly shows me that you barely play the character at all...this is incredibly...ignorant.
true-combos corrins has: DFS to full hop DL tipper, DFS to pin and kick,DFS to Fsmash, weak hit of DL kick into aerials, Fair to DFS in the air, DFS into footstool into dair into pin( even though pin isnt true), dtilit to utilit, dtilt to upair, dtilt to reverse grab, landing nair to anything (preferebly footstool) into more aerials, nair into bair, DFS to dash attack, falling fair to pin at very low percents, DFS to uair, DFS to bite, falling fair to footstool to nair to bair( or alternatively use another fair in the air and then footstool) those are just the true ones (depending on percent and character, if the opponent is above 80% the DFS combos are very easy to do and deadly with tipper DL)
now, give me cloud's true combos. very curious.
then, im not denying falcon's spot by any means. he is about where he should be and a good character. he just lacks a good mixup game. all he has is his speed. if you cut him off coming to you, it is very very difficult for falcon, hence why he isnt at the top of the tier list if he is so fast, does have so good combos, good recovery, is heavy and kills fast. sounds like a top contender but wait...yea. i like falcon very much and im not biased lol. i wish marth was good to main him again, but he just isnt. corrin is just a very complete character that has no true weakness aside from very mediocre recovery, but still, not bad. what makes corrin so good is his mixup game and the tools he has for each situation. he isnt just straightforward. and i think you dont really realize, what makes corrin such a solid character. great neutral, great mixups, decent combo game, has easy kill confirms at higher percent, decent kill throw, mobility is far from slow but also far from captain falcon mobility but fast enough for how corrin is played. corrin threatens space so well, that opponents HAVE to respect it due to the lance and overall range, causing opponents to shield even if you arent that close which opens up grab opportunities. corrins frame trapping is also very strong. he is good at playing footsies. but corrin is also relatively easy to gimp and can have problems against characters like fox who can camp with a projectile and otherwise go in on you if you become impatient. corrin is probably at his worst at CQC. and so far only fox can do that pretty reliably, since he can also force camping. you can brick wall the rest. oh and his frame data is actually better than average, just sayin'.
and now for the last point...im really curious for your proof that luigi is above corrin. really.
ill compare both for you and then you can comment if you want.
luigi is slower than corrin with terrible air mobility. luigi doesnt have good kill setups, whereas corrin has. luigi only has reliably low percent combos, corrin has combos at any %, corrin's neutral is much better. corrin plays footsies better. both arent the best at approaching, which, in corrin's case, is somehow mitigated by how fast side-b comes out and the threating of space i meantioned before. luigi just loses against some top tiers/high high tiers. corrin isnt clearly disadvanteged as far as i can tell, except against fox. being able to set up into one of your kill move is a huge deal, and corrin is able to do that. luigi edgeguards a little bit better i would say, though. at least against non linear recovery, that you can just side b with corrin.
really, im not denying anything, corrin is a very solid and complete character, and that completeness makes him good. just think about side-b for that matter. which character has a move that is: a movement tool, a spacing tool, a combo tool, a killing tool AND a recovery tool( depending on stage) all in once that comes out incredibly fast.
for some reason you are just seeking negatives without providing actual evidence and falls argument (only 2-4 fair combos for example) without taking the positives into account that absolutely outshine the negatives and help to play around them. and that is important at the end of the day, cause each and every character does have weaknesses (even sheik, yea)
there is absolutely no reason for luigi being above corrin.

but everyone has their own opinion i guess, and if you think corrin is c-d or even e tier, well then, thats ok.

How utterly horrifying. Do you know how unlikely it is for any opponent to be hit by Dragon Fang Shot? Especially offline? Those aren't even technically combos, but setups from said move, and the others, like the one I mentioned, which I did not say was their only combo, but was used as an example of the character having few combos that can deal any real damage. Strong down to strong up attack is not a damaging combo, nor are really any of the others that you mentioned. Cloud, on the other hand, can do a highly damaging combo with his Cross Slash first two hits into a down throw and into another Cross Slash, which may be limit broken under the right circumstances. He can frame cancel his forward air into a multitude of his other moves, notably aerials, a falling up air to strong up attack, and can sour spot his down air into a Finishing Touch at kill percents, on most fighters. Captain Falcon is clearly superior to Corrin with devastatingly powerful and quick moves, combos and setups into his second strongest move, and makes great use of extended dash dancing and perfect pivoting, significantly out shining Corrin in mobility, combos, kill power, weight, and anything except zoning really, but he doesn't need to zone, he can hold his own against even the top tiers for the most part, a feat which Corrin, in my experience, cannot accomplish. Corrin's grounded attacks and down air are highly punishable when shielded and deal negligible damage to shields, compared to the two higher tier fighters I mentioned and literally every power focused fighter in the game, meaning there is no reason not to use shields against them, and their specials suffer from this same issue, yes, even Dragon Lunge is punishable, especially when you don't stick it in the ground. In the case of Luigi, I wasn't bringing him up for any reason other than he's the highest tier character in mid tier, C tier being upper mid tier, but he has zoning abilities that, while not as long ranged as Corrin's, are far less punishable, with decent kill power hard to punish moves, a meteor smash that can kill early without sacrificing a stock, negligible landing lag on all but one aerial, and a move that can interrupt just about anything else in Luigi Cyclone. He has a far better recovery that results in gimping being all but impossible on him, a balance of frame data and the proper moves to make his low mobility not a problem, an insanely powerful up special when sweetspotted, long (though nerfed) combos, and a chance to get a lucky kill with the Green Misfire. Additionally, against characters with poor/stiff recoveries, he can get disgustingly disrespectful with a ledge trump to down taunt, though I'll admit it's highly situational and doesn't matter in this case. Corrin's up airs, back airs, and counters(Bayonetta's is better anyway, but Corrin sits nicely at second best) don't hold up to the top tiers which can better set up their typically stronger kill moves, again, Cloud has better kill power on almost every move and with more range. Despite all this, I do believe Corrin's strengths outweighs their weaknesses, and they'll probably be a solid mid tier, perhaps even above Toon Link, who can zone them under the table just so you know. By the way, I've been playing Corrin quite a bit since launch, barely using my mains.

 

[WondrousMoose]

Holy junk, people. Use paragraphs.

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

Holy junk, people. Use paragraphs.

It's a long paragraph, I don't really move on to entirely different subsections so I felt no need to do it separately.

 

[WondrousMoose]

It's a long paragraph, I don't really move on to entirely different subsections so I felt no need to do it separately.

Eh, you definitely could've used them. Well, while I've got your attention, I had some issues with what you wrote up there.
Why is it so unlikely for someone to be hit by DFS? It's already happening in the tournament matches Corrin has appeared in, and people are hit by slower projectiles in general. It comes out frame 15, making close-quarter usage risky but not impossible, and the charged bite followup is great.
You talked for a while about Cloud, but they're very different fighters. Cloud is certainly a more aggressive fighter, and while I would agree that he's probably better overall, it's not necessarily a good comparison.
I have no idea why you keep comparing Corrin with Captain Falcon. Their playstyles are opposites, as Corrin is a zoning character with long, disjointed hitboxes, and CF is all about rushdown, with his fast movement speed and solid frame data. Which is a "better" fighter is a pretty meaningless question until we have tournament results strongly favoring one over the other in a variety of matchups.
Of course Dair is risky; every stall-then-fall is. Side-B being punishable doesn't really mean anything of any significance.

 

[Hero_2_All]

IMHO Corrin is looking great, but not amazing. Around Falcon lvl maybe a little better.

Things to be said in defense of Corrin:

dfs lands even at high lvl play. I mean ZSS players still get paralyzer shots in, and dfs is a much faster and larger projectile than ZSS neutral b (wave bounces and B reverses mang). Also Idk were people are getting that cloud has much better frame data than Corrin ( Kurogane hammer is a magical place). Even when looking at both character's quickest aerials its pretty even (Cloud N-air is the exception and 1 frame faster than Corrin N-air). Though in general Corrin has faster moves in all other places (cloud jab being the other exception on the ground at frame 4). Also Corrin's combo game is amazing for a swordsmen / spacing character. Has down tilts into up tilts, which set up to air strings at low percents. At medium percents it goes more into the air all the way into kill percents. Dfs is a guaranteed kill confirm into anything you want rly (oh paralyzers). Up tilt or down tilt into up air can true combo or 50/50. A SHFF fair, or a fair string can combo into uncharged Dfs into 3/4 bite. This can true combo, but mostly a 50/50 kill set up (kills knee early). The true combo is likely based off percent and character (is much like a SHFF U-air on falcon knee set up...the 50/50 is pretty legit though). Also instant pin off dl is a frame 7 move that does 19 dmg.... and kills (con is very punishable on wiff, but difficult to punish the pin when on shield, and forces your opponent into shield). His edge guarding game is also damn pretty good.

Cons:

Grab game, mobility, and recovery. Corrin has the basic positioning gained from grabs... with meh grab and ok kill throws, no combo throws. Makes for lack luster punishes against heavy shielding (which players do vs most swordsmen). Speed in air and on groud is ike like, bellow average. Recovery is meh. Is to linear, and range is average. Even though it can be angled, has large hit-boxes, and invincibility on start up. It still to linear and players will get you if you end up off stage to much.

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

Eh, you definitely could've used them. Well, while I've got your attention, I had some issues with what you wrote up there.
Why is it so unlikely for someone to be hit by DFS? It's already happening in the tournament matches Corrin has appeared in, and people are hit by slower projectiles in general. It comes out frame 15, making close-quarter usage risky but not impossible, and the charged bite followup is great.
You talked for a while about Cloud, but they're very different fighters. Cloud is certainly a more aggressive fighter, and while I would agree that he's probably better overall, it's not necessarily a good comparison.
I have no idea why you keep comparing Corrin with Captain Falcon. Their playstyles are opposites, as Corrin is a zoning character with long, disjointed hitboxes, and CF is all about rushdown, with his fast movement speed and solid frame data. Which is a "better" fighter is a pretty meaningless question until we have tournament results strongly favoring one over the other in a variety of matchups.
Of course Dair is risky; every stall-then-fall is. Side-B being punishable doesn't really mean anything of any significance.

Sorry for the late reply. Anyway, Dragon Fang Shot is very slow, I don't see many people with fast reactions being hit by it unless they're playing a nearly immobile fighter like the ones I use, and even then, it's easy to react to offline. Tournament matches or not, the results are inconclusive, Corrin's new, of course people are going to have trouble with them, it's easier to learn a character than to fight them unless it's Shulk or something. I mention Cloud and CF not for them being wholly better versions of Corrin, but because they're better than Corrin, and they're characters I have experience in fighting, and they have the most blatant advantages over Corrin while still having weaknesses (of which the top five or so have basically none) that are comparable. Side special's punishability was more to show that it isn't a perfect move like my buddy up there was implying, it isn't godlike. The bit about the down air was just to show that Corrin can't get super early kills without a sacrifice.

 

[Balloonicorn]

DFS if used well can be pretty good at catching rolls or covering options I think, especially if you mix them up with a charged bite. If it's used to the point of being predictable it's super punishable and easy to react to of course but a lot of moves are like that. I believe that it is a really good move and gives Corrin his/her niche more than any other move in his/her arsenal.

Also I'm fairly sure that you can down-air off stage and make it back to the ledge on any stage if you do a full hop off stage into dair. I've definitely gotten back by jumping out of it if it whiffs or footstooling if it hits then going into a backwards angled up-b for maximum height. And of course you can recover even easier if the stage has walls to pin to. I guess it's risky but it should be doable.

 

[Skitrel]

Cloud, on the other hand, can do a highly damaging combo with his Cross Slash first two hits into a down throw and into another Cross Slash, which may be limit broken under the right circumstances.

Cross slash into grab?

Grab into Cross slash?

Combos? Please press jump next time someone tries this on you. Cloud gets no combos out of throw and unless I missed some amazing discovery I'm pretty sure that Cross Slash does not combo into grab, it's even punishable on hit by some of the cast.

He can frame cancel his forward air into a multitude of his other moves, notably aerials, a falling up air to strong up attack, and can sour spot his down air into a Finishing Touch at kill percents, on most fighters.

I'm really not sure what the point you're making here is. Corrin can do all of the above barring dair to finishing touch. I'll argue that fair to DFS killing at 50-60% is equivalent.

Captain Falcon is clearly superior to Corrin with devastatingly powerful and quick moves, combos and setups into his second strongest move, and makes great use of extended dash dancing and perfect pivoting, significantly out shining Corrin in mobility, combos, kill power, weight, and anything except zoning really, but he doesn't need to zone, he can hold his own against even the top tiers for the most part, a feat which Corrin, in my experience, cannot accomplish.

The Falcon matchup is +1 Corrin or at worst even. His kill setups don't combo. IP out of shield punishes him very hard. He gets juggled HARD, frametrapped horribly by uair>nair, and he has ledge options that results in being an easy edgeguard for Corrin.

You need to stop playing Corrin like your only options are laggy slow moves.

In the case of Luigi, I wasn't bringing him up for any reason other than he's the highest tier character in mid tier, C tier being upper mid tier, but he has zoning abilities that, while not as long ranged as Corrin's, are far less punishable, with decent kill power hard to punish moves, a meteor smash that can kill early without sacrificing a stock, negligible landing lag on all but one aerial, and a move that can interrupt just about anything else in Luigi Cyclone.

All true. But he can't get in without consistent perfect shields. If he's outranged by good spacing of disjointed attacks he loses the neutral consistently.

Toon Link, who can zone them under the table just so you know. By the way, I've been playing Corrin quite a bit since launch, barely using my mains.

Airdodging and neutral airs? They have the benefit of catching items and making projectiles disappear. Tink can run away and play the zoning game against the entire cast yet he's NOT +1 even against the slowest cast members like Ike, DK, and others because the entire cast can get through his projectile spam and zoning. I can only assume you struggle with Tink normally and need to learn the matchup, he's not a problem for Corrin.

Tink gets pushed into the air by Corrin while running away at which point he becomes uair food.

This wall of text was painful to parse. Please separate into different sections for each character next time.

Everyone needs to stop comparing toolsets to toolsets. They're not useful comparisons because they don't look at how the toolsets practically apply in matchups. What matter are matchups and how characters perform within them through use of whatever is available. Discussion and debate over specific matchups and the options within those matchups is what's valuable. Toolset comparisons are useless without looking at them in actual usage.

 

[Fex13]

How utterly horrifying. Do you know how unlikely it is for any opponent to be hit by Dragon Fang Shot? Especially offline? Those aren't even technically combos, but setups from said move, and the others, like the one I mentioned, which I did not say was their only combo, but was used as an example of the character having few combos that can deal any real damage. Strong down to strong up attack is not a damaging combo, nor are really any of the others that you mentioned. Cloud, on the other hand, can do a highly damaging combo with his Cross Slash first two hits into a down throw and into another Cross Slash, which may be limit broken under the right circumstances. He can frame cancel his forward air into a multitude of his other moves, notably aerials, a falling up air to strong up attack, and can sour spot his down air into a Finishing Touch at kill percents, on most fighters. Captain Falcon is clearly superior to Corrin with devastatingly powerful and quick moves, combos and setups into his second strongest move, and makes great use of extended dash dancing and perfect pivoting, significantly out shining Corrin in mobility, combos, kill power, weight, and anything except zoning really, but he doesn't need to zone, he can hold his own against even the top tiers for the most part, a feat which Corrin, in my experience, cannot accomplish. Corrin's grounded attacks and down air are highly punishable when shielded and deal negligible damage to shields, compared to the two higher tier fighters I mentioned and literally every power focused fighter in the game, meaning there is no reason not to use shields against them, and their specials suffer from this same issue, yes, even Dragon Lunge is punishable, especially when you don't stick it in the ground. In the case of Luigi, I wasn't bringing him up for any reason other than he's the highest tier character in mid tier, C tier being upper mid tier, but he has zoning abilities that, while not as long ranged as Corrin's, are far less punishable, with decent kill power hard to punish moves, a meteor smash that can kill early without sacrificing a stock, negligible landing lag on all but one aerial, and a move that can interrupt just about anything else in Luigi Cyclone. He has a far better recovery that results in gimping being all but impossible on him, a balance of frame data and the proper moves to make his low mobility not a problem, an insanely powerful up special when sweetspotted, long (though nerfed) combos, and a chance to get a lucky kill with the Green Misfire. Additionally, against characters with poor/stiff recoveries, he can get disgustingly disrespectful with a ledge trump to down taunt, though I'll admit it's highly situational and doesn't matter in this case. Corrin's up airs, back airs, and counters(Bayonetta's is better anyway, but Corrin sits nicely at second best) don't hold up to the top tiers which can better set up their typically stronger kill moves, again, Cloud has better kill power on almost every move and with more range. Despite all this, I do believe Corrin's strengths outweighs their weaknesses, and they'll probably be a solid mid tier, perhaps even above Toon Link, who can zone them under the table just so you know. By the way, I've been playing Corrin quite a bit since launch, barely using my mains.

overall good points and i dont want to go into detail again too much, though i disagree on some minor aspects. but i gotta mention 2 things.
1. DFS is not hard to hit. sure, if you stand there and shoot, yea, nobody is going to get hit by it. but there are many frame traps, mindgames and c-bouncing involved in this move and really, if you dont spam it and use it right, people are going to get hit by it. and above 85 to 120 % getting hit means losing the stock.
2. related to DFS not hitting, you mention clouds fair and how good it is and what it sets up. but by your logic, cloud should never ever get a fair in, if people dont even get hit by DFS. DFS is easier to hit than clouds fair, especially on characters like pikachu, kirby etc. and the cross slash combo into cross slash and what not isnt true and only a mix up that is easily shielded or dodged out of as everything cloud has except for dair setups and some minor utilt shenanigans. also, falling upair is just as bad to hit with as cloud as his fair. good luck hitting a falling uair against pikachu. and suddenly cloud becomes a pure bait and punish chara with actually no true combos. but whatever. and DFS hits are technically combos, not set ups. you hit with DFS, opponent cant move and the next hit is inescapable as long as you are fast enough. this is what i call a combo. 2 or more unavoidable hits after the initial hit was successful. everything cloud has are strings, working on frame trapping and positioning. but this isnt even importantt, since both characters are no combo characters that live off of them. just wanted to make that combo thing clear. oh, and cloud indeed does have more kill power and range on most of his moves. thats why they are harder to hit than most of corrins attacks (except for Fsmash maybe). imagine corrins fair with the power and range of clouds...makes sense now, doesnt it?

one last thing about the top tier match ups. if you browse through various threads, people mostly say that corrin actually does pretty well against the top tiers, except diddy,pika and fox( if you count them as top tiers). even sheik isnt really hard. i would tend to say that it is close to even, as is metaknight and zss. and from my experience, i would actually say, mk is at a disadvantage. but it is probably too early to tell anyway. you may happily disagree with me, which you probably will. but hey, that is what opinions are for, right?

and everything Skitrel and Hero_2_All said, except that im pretty sure, that corrins air mobility is average and not below average. but whatever.

 

[Absol]

All this talk about corrin not being able to kill....yet she has an instant pin that can't possibly be reacted to. More over her kick afterwards is a solid kill move. So by extension she has a kill move that people can't react to. A fresh instant pin coupled with some rage is a consistent way to kill. Just by being by your opponents comfort zone you can scare them into shielding because instant pin is too fast to block on reaction. Therefore you can take advantage of them shielding more often and get grabs/stage control. Plus dtilt to either up air or up b is a 50-50 at kill percents. There's more I could list but imo corrin has a very consistent way of killing. Better than sheik that's for sure.

 

[Skitrel]

All this talk about corrin not being able to kill....yet she has an instant pin that can't possibly be reacted to. More over her kick afterwards is a solid kill move. So by extension she has a kill move that people can't react to. A fresh instant pin coupled with some rage is a consistent way to kill. Just by being by your opponents comfort zone you can scare them into shielding because instant pin is too fast to block on reaction. .

This is arguable. Not that IIII am arguing, but technically if going by some people's suggestion the IP is 7frames then that makes it a 116ms move. That's fast but not completely unreactable. 6 frames and under is unreactable. 7-9 is lightning fast reactable. 10+ is reactable.

I have yet to see hard data that proves the frames of IP though and I'm pretty desperate for it. If it turns out to be 4frames like some people suggest then it is in fact our best OOS option.

I agree in general with what you say though. It's the best and most intimidating move in our arsenal because it forces opponents to respect a range that nobody else in the cast has with a move that WILL kill AND shield stab when targeted at opponents feet with even the smallest amount of shield damage.

The correct spacing isn't often used. The trick is to apply knockback to the opponent without getting the pin. That's the maximum correct spacing for it.

 

[WondrousMoose]

Of the things people can choose, I'm surprised that people are suggesting that Corrin struggles with kills. A fully charged DFS and bite will kill ~70% at the edge, and tipper DL kills ~100%. Fsmash has nasty range, and a tipper kills at similar damage. Uair is solid for KOs off the top, and let's not forget about CS, which, while situational, can do nasty things. Bair is solid offstage, tipper Usmash hits hard, etc.

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

Hey, you can delude yourselves all you want, but when the time comes, the tier list will prove me right. I'll be here when it comes, time will indeed prove me correct.

 

[Absol]

Hey, you can delude yourselves all you want, but when the time comes, the tier list will prove me right. I'll be here when it comes, time will indeed prove me correct.

>Thinking a tier list proves you right

The only thing you're proving is that you like to pretend to know what you don't know, and you like to place your opinion as an absolution. I knew this thread was pointless from the start with how early it is, and behold. This thread should've been locked when it started.

 

[Skitrel]

It's fine. These debates pop up everywhere.

The "Yoshi isn't top tier" debate has been alive and well since near game launch.

There will always be disagreements between people over the viability of characters. The ultimately decider is tournament placings, the Yoshi naysayers are/were arguably correct about Yoshi from a solo-viability standpoint. Whether they turn out to be correct about Corrin remains to be seen as her meta develops, but tournament placings look very promising so far.

I don't think the thread should be locked, but I do think people need to stop feeling so offended that people here disagree with them. Keep it a civil discussion. There's no need for rudeness.

 

[RosalinA]

I believe Corrin is top tier and right below Cloud, but above Diddy Kong
My version of B Tier:
Bayonetta, Cloud, Corrin, Diddy Kong, Ness
The reason I put him there is because:
All his ariels kill at fairly low percents (100-120%)
Instant dragon lunge is a move that not only kills at very low percent,
but it also takes away any projectile instantly (like the bannana) and then alows you to get put of any situation instantly.
His side smash is amazing for edgeguarding, with the hitbox in front of him and if correctly spaced, it can cover all the options except of course just falling down.

But there you go, and the reason I don't believe he is above Cloud is because Cloud has more range than him on most of his moves, and I put Bayonetta in front of Cloud because she has a much better combo game and a much better off-stage and edge-guarding game.

 

[Nu~]

Hey, you can delude yourselves all you want, but when the time comes, the tier list will prove me right. I'll be here when it comes, time will indeed prove me correct.

Ironically arrogant considering how little substance your anti-Corrin posts have.

You claim he has unsafe tilts compared to cloud and falcon. Hilarious and wrong considering Corrin has a faster ftilt in startup and FAF, a better ground hitbox on utilt, and a better Dtilt for poking than cloud. And falcon's tilts are trash all around with their laggy startup (frame 17 utilt LOL) and worse FAF bar ftilt.

When it comes to aerials, what do cloud and falcon have that are safer for poking than Corrin? Corrin has spaced Fair, Bair, FF Uair, and spaced dragon lunge pin -> jump or back kick depending on positioning and the opposing char's speed. Hell, you can mind game your opponent by pinning their shield and waiting. They drop shield at maximum pin range, they get get kicked. They wait, you can escape or wait until the cancel.

Falcon has FF Uair and Bair (telegraphed because poor frame data and range) and cloud has spaced Nair, Bair, and fullhop Dair (because I'll definitely stand there and let you fall on me). Cross slash x2 on shield will get you mamed against opponents that know the matchup.

You can check the frame data here if you want to learn:
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Captain Falcon
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Corrin
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Cloud

As for combos, it's not exactly fair to compare him to captain falcon considering that's falcon's game plan. Dashing in and out until he can Grab -> follow ups/reads/mixup combos + Uair juggles...
As for cloud, we definitely have the superior combo game. Both Cloud and Corrin have utilt chains at low percentages. Cloud has superior juggles with his long lasting Uair.

However, Corrin has more ways to convert to combos than cloud. While cloud has Uair juggles, nair -> bair, Nair -> DA (if you miss the tech), FF Uair -> Uair, and fullhop Dair -> uair/finishing touch (telegraphed because of how high you have to be)

Corrin has FF Nair -> everything + footstool combos, FF fair -> fair -> fair, FH fair -> Uair as a kill confirm on half the cast while they're standing, FF Uair -> Uair, reversal Uair -> Bair, Dtilt -> utilt chains, Dtilt chains -> grab, ftilt -> fair and a wide assortment of mixups to boot!...I can go on.
Corrin combos diagonally while cloud combos mainly vertically. However, Corrin has a wider range of combos than cloud does due to better frame data and better knockback angles.

 

[Skitrel]

but it also takes away any projectile instantly (like the bannana) and then alows you to get put of any situation instantly.

Technically not true. Half of the cast can chase down and punish the runaway kick with a grab or dashattack. It does need to be used intelligently and in specific scenarios to be safe, particularly against Sheik who will punish it hard with a grab and Sheik-things after the grab.

Not sure I'd put her quite as high. Right now I'm comparing her to Mario a lot. Few weaknesses, strong all rounder, makes up for her weak areas with some very good strengths.

 

[RosalinA]

Technically not true. Half of the cast can chase down and punish the runaway kick with a grab or dashattack. It does need to be used intelligently and in specific scenarios to be safe, particularly against Sheik who will punish it hard with a grab and Sheik-things after the grab.

The other characters can't track it down unless their probably sonic or jigglypuff using rollout (but why ever use that move) because you should be retreating backwards with the kick, which gives you enough time to get away most of the time before being punished, or Corrin will just go off stage, where it's hard to edge-guard Corrin.

 

[Deleted member]

Ironically arrogant considering how little substance your anti-Corrin posts have. My goodness, you're worse than LancerStaff. At least he was just speculating. You have the information right in front of you and still deny it.

Was there really any need for this?

 

[Skitrel]

The other characters can't track it down unless their probably sonic or jigglypuff using rollout (but why ever use that move) because you should be retreating backwards with the kick, which gives you enough time to get away most of the time before being punished, or Corrin will just go off stage, where it's hard to edge-guard Corrin.

It does not.

Go and test this in lab with a partner. Hit a Shiek's shield, retreat with it, and have the Sheik chase you into a dash grab, they will get you every time.

If the Sheik does a dash attack you CAN spot dodge it. You can't shield it. But grabs will always connect.

Some other characters can connect the dash attack. Some can connect the grab. This is one of those things where an extensive list of safe vs notsafe in each matchup will likely be very useful, because like I said above - It's matchup dependent.

 

[RosalinA]

It does not.

Go and test this in lab with a partner. Hit a Shiek's shield, retreat with it, and have the Sheik chase you into a dash grab, they will get you every time.

If the Sheik does a dash attack you CAN spot dodge it. You can't shield it. But grabs will always connect.

Some other characters can connect the dash attack. Some can connect the grab. This is one of those things where an extensive list of safe vs notsafe in each matchup will likely be very useful, because like I said above - It's matchup dependent.

I wasn't talking about hitting shields, I was talking about taking away projectiles. I know what happenes it you get a person who is in shield, and I know Shiek will win because her projectile is multi-hit. But if you take away a projectile, and you're not really close to the character, I do believe you can get away, I've tested it before with a lot of characters with my friend.

 

[Nu~]

Was there really any need for this?

Probably not, but I don't take kindly to empty arrogance.

I should delete it though...may be a bit much

 

[Skitrel]

I wasn't talking about hitting shields, I was talking about taking away projectiles. I know what happenes it you get a person who is in shield, and I know Shiek will win because her projectile is multi-hit. But if you take away a projectile, and you're not really close to the character, I do believe you can get away, I've tested it before with a lot of characters with my friend.

Ahh then I may have misunderstood you. I thought you were talking about it being safe on shield.

 

[RosalinA]

Ahh then I may have misunderstood you. I thought you were talking about it being safe on shield.

That's ok, that's why I mentioned Diddy Kong's bannana when I was talking about that, because it's a projectile.

 

[Rioku]

Corrin's mobility is Ike levels without the weight or strength

Did I hear Ike movement? To use a video posted in another thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiO-dnTOcL8
PM Ike level movement? Pretty close, but not that crazy. To be honest I think people are extremely underestimating the movement options that side b gives on both sides. Before I started exploring what I could do with side b I was pretty convinced Corrin wouldn't scratch the high tiers but after playing around with stuff and applying it in tournament to pretty incredible results I'm not so sure.

The instant side b pins the ground over half the stage is in Corrin's potential threat range and that's huge. And anyone calling the move predictable is flat wrong. The ability to jump out of it alone makes the move a giant mind game the second it hits the ground let alone the two directional kick. I just really think this move hasn't even shown a fraction of its full potential.

Also I feel that Corrin needs Battlefield or Dreamland to perform optimally, and that isn't exactly a good thing. Though I can see Corrin performing very well on Umbra, arguably better than Town and City, if the stage is made legal (no idea on this). I've played a bunch of friendlies there and the platforms are often times in nice positions but it's no where near what Battlefield and Dreamland give us.

Aside from that Corrin is going to be a weird character to tier and is probably going to be very reliant on tournament results. It's too hard to say she's better than the mid tiers or worse than the high tiers. She doesn't have any truly glaring weaknesses, but most of her strengths aren't that prevalent either. To anyone saying spacing tippers is too hard or impractical, I reference Melee Marth. While we do not have the same level of movement options as Melee, Corrin's tipper is much bigger, side b tips come out a lot faster, and the range actually makes it easier to clip people with tips on punishes. Learn to perfect pivot. It's a very useful tool for spacing. Corrin isn't smash 4 Marth with his ridiculously small tipper. Ours is much larger and easier to land.

tl;dr I'm 99% sure Corrin will wind up somewhere between Sheik and Zelda on the tier list.