What would you like to see for Ganon, in my homebrew-Smash project?

[Alfonso "Missle Launch" Crawford]

I'm making a Smash-game for the DS. I'm currently running some tests on the condition-examiner of the move-executioning code. Anyway! I'm tweaking every character because:

• there's alot of fun fleshing-out that can be done
• it's easier than hacking frame-data

Well, let's get right on into what's already planned. I've kinda set myself up for a fall, as Bowser kinda blew his crowd away; and that lightning sure as **** didn't hit thrice with Lucas and Sonic. I wonder how y'all do?

Brutha DARKNESS
Something that'll permeate Ganondorf is a mechanic—that'll drive me to murder, while implementing, I bet—is a special effect attached to Darkness outside of story-mode: darkness will slow opponent-movement. I'm unsure if "opponent-movement" refers to animation or the displacement-speed of the character.

"Are you okay? Buster Warlock!"
Here's the gist of the mundane twists; Falcon-Punch speed, tiltable, and reversable. The fun addition to the Warlock Pimp-Hand is the wind and darkness-eruption. If the (still as strong as always, despite the speed-boost) attack doesn't get 'em, the darkness will; allowing you another try.

Wavedash Mostly Unnecessary
There's a new wavedash-command, as the readers of the Bowser-thread ought to know, but I don't know what the hell to do with Ganondorf. I figured that killing Ganon's running-lag, so you can run up and quickly use a neutral attack.

Upward Tilt/Forward Smash
The following change seems more like a correction than like an addition, to me. Ganon's fsmash is changed to the axe-kick. Imagine being able to control how long that pose is held, eh? The smash might as well start at the utitle-strength….

The new utilt is a bit abstruse. Have you ever seen Street Fighter 3's Hugo? Have you seen his standing-parry? Imagine that with an eruption of darkness attached to that, with the animation having a Rest-hitbox.

Neutral Aerial
Again, I can't say much about the addition I've got planned. (Thank God I ask for help, eh?) Basically, the burst of Ganondorf's spin-taunt is turned into an attack: it's hitbox is as long as the first kick of the old nair, and his whole height tall; on both sides of him. The spin-animation isn't part of the new nair: it's just the burst.



I'm sorry for the lack of enthusiasm behind this post: when watching stand-up comedy while co-workers are calling to inform me that (a) tonight's going to be royally awful and (b) they're arranging for me an appointment for food-stamps (because they don't like me getting my breakfast out of the dumpsters behind Dunkin Donuts), you can't really get HYPED about… anything, really.

Got anything to add? Where'd you like the sword, eh?

 

[Z1GMA]

Make him have Gerudo -> garanteed Warlock punch ;]

 

[hyperstation]

Alfonso, I'll read your thread in a bit, but for now I just wanted to say...my family's from Mechanicsburg, just across the Susquehanna! I live in Brooklyn, but I'm at home now.

Have you seen the funky post by this guy GoldenOne (or some sh*t) about a Smash tourny at the Holiday Inn Express on Union Deposit on the 31st? Apparently there's 1500 bucks for first place. If I'm still around Harrisburg on the 31st, I'm gonna clean up that tourny. lol.

Good to see another central PA smasher representing.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Forget Warlock Punch. Seriously, forget it. We never wanted the thing, and it's dragged us down too many times. What we deserve is a projectile, preferably a chargable one. Now this is how I think a projectile should go.

Dark Viper: Ganondorf shoots a black fang that travels in a pattern similar to Mewtwo's, covers the length of FD, and has very minor knockback and hitstun. This move is chargable (he holds his fist up and gathers darkness into it) to create more fangs (up to a maximum of 10 at one time), which, if fired on the ground, will originate at Ganon's knees and spread up in a 30 degree arc. If used in the air, is exactly the same, except that the firing arc begins at his torso, and extends 22.5 degrees upwards and downwards from there.

 

[hyperstation]

I have only one request: Make UTilt cancelable.

 

[Z1GMA]

Forget Warlock Punch. Seriously, forget it.

I fully agree, My previous post was just irony ;P

Dark Viper

What about the damage?

 

[Alfonso "Missle Launch" Crawford]

I have only one request: Make UTilt cancelable.

You mean the old one that's now the fsmash? Or the new one?

Oh crap! I completely forgot about the up-B! I gotta head to work, so I can't say anything now; but expect something a tad extreme involving flight.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I fully agree, My previous post was just irony ;P

What about the damage?

5% per fang, never degenerates.

 

[SaltyKracka]

You mean the old one that's now the fsmash? Or the new one?

Oh crap! I completely forgot about the up-B! I gotta head to work, so I can't say anything now; but expect something a tad extreme involving flight.

Just making it so that our Up-B creates a temporary platform would be nice.

A temporary platform that EXPLODES.

 

[Koskinator]

Make his down b that electric **** from ocarina of time.

 

[Z1GMA]

Up+b:
Ganon howers for a like 3 seconds (Stomp pose) with purple lightning/electricity consistantly shootin down from his feet, which has bad knockback, but good priority and deals a max of 14% damage.
You can direct him while he performs this. good horizontinal speed, but bad vertical speed. You can also turn around if you wan't (spacing tool ON stage)

If you press B again while he is howering he performs a little flip/twist diagonaly upwards, shootin the lightning infront of himself with decent knockback

 

[SaltyKracka]

Okay, here's some things I think could be added to this.

First, I like the darkness effect. Here's how it should work. It should last about 2 seconds per use, add about 6 frames of startup lag and 7 frames of ending lag to every move done while under it, and be stackable. In addition, have it halve the priority of said moves. Add it to just about every move (especially his dair), and you've just vastly improved his moveset already.

Second, make it so that Murder Choke has no startup lag at all. I just want Ganon to go straight to choking people without having to threaten to pimpslap them first.

Thirdly, his recovery. You can do one of two things here. My personal favorite is to have it immediately make a Triforce-shaped (permeable) platform directly under him. He would be able to do this in the middle of aerial moves, letting him cancel them. After lasting for 2 seconds, said platform should then explode, dealing 20% damage and very high knockback in a radius twice its size and 360 degrees in direction. Either that, or you can make it so that he has a teleporting move (similar to Mewtwo and Zelda's) that has very little startup lag, mediocre ending lag, 10% damage, the ability to pass through solid walls (such as stages), and an effect where anybody hit by the ending animation is teleported to the position Ganondorf teleported FROM.

Fourth, a projectile to replace the accursed Warlock Punch. Again, I'll give you two choices. First is this.
Dark Viper: Ganondorf shoots a black fang that travels in a pattern similar to Mewtwo's, covers the length of FD, does 5% per fang (never degenerating), and has very minor knockback and hitstun. This move is chargable (he holds his fist up and gathers darkness into it) to create more fangs (up to a maximum of 10 at one time), which, if fired on the ground, will originate at Ganon's knees and spread up in a 30 degree arc. If used in the air, is exactly the same, except that the firing arc begins at his torso, and extends 22.5 degrees upwards and downwards from there.
The second is this. Ganondorf takes out two darkness covered swords and throws them so that they act as boomerangs, each doing 20% and high knockback. This could probably be his Run-special.

Fifth, his moveset in general.
*First thing to do is to increase the damage and knockback on all of his moves by AT LEAST 100%, maybe even more for some.
*Next, make it so that his Dsmash locks characters in so that they cannot escape the first hit, and must be hit by the second.
*Next, increase the range on his Usmash so that it hits at about half the range that his (new) Fsmash does, and sweetspots on the whole move.

And that's all that I can think of for now.

 

[ZeonStar]

Yeah, give ganon **** he actually had in the games, get rid of his current moveset, its balls.

 

[ZenJestr]

and give it to Black Shadow...the guy who should've had it...

 

[Z1GMA]

and give it to Black Shadow...the guy who should've had it...

True.. But he Isn't nearly as cool as Ganon ;/

 

[Anomilus]

I still like my idea for Ganon's Neutral B: Keep Warlock Punch exactly as it is, but right at the moment the hitbox comes out, Ganon releases a slow moving large glowing purple projectile. This projectile has the same power as a Warlock Punch, moves slowly enough that an opponent can't spotdodge it, it's too large to duck under, and it can instantly break a shield. It also can't be snuffed by another attack. Basically it's an unstoppable projectile that can only be avoided by rolling or jumping over.

So while slow to come out and move, it really limits the opponent to either rolling around it or jumping above it, allowing Ganondorf to easily predict and capitalize on the opponent.

 

[Alfonso "Missle Launch" Crawford]

I wanna swear, in this space, but I won't.

Man!

I am SO fired!

….

Psst! (Ask me if I care!)



The Bad and Ugly:
Hm! Partly just to the chagrin of the community, Tingle's going into Riot; and he has a platform-generating special. Further, Ganon needs his new Warlock Punch to fight against Riot-Bowser (who now has a knockback-reduction of 700%): the wind (which I may or may not have mentioned, and'm too emotionally messed-up to care to check) should be his main offensive tool against Koopa. I've thought about stacking darkness, but I'm very worried about doing as such: eventually, a skilled Ganon can pile enough darkness that their opponent simply can't move for the remainder of the match: I'm unsure about it, but I'm not saying anything concrete 'til I can run tests.

The Up-B:
On the ground, Ganondorf does Roy's upper, with darkness instead of flame. Aerially, Ganon kills his momentum (mostly) and begins floating. While floating, Ganon can move as one would expect, and execute any of his normal aerial attacks. The flotation runs off "fuel," and its expenditure cannot be controlled. While floating, Ganondorf's up-B is the Roy-upper: it cancels out the float completely.

The Down-B:
I'd be glad to make Ganondorf's down-B a thunder-ball thing, and I'll later be glad to hunt down whoever recommended that and rip their heart out of their chest, when it comes time to implement the animation behind controlling which direction a player directs the projectile.

[I'd like to take some time out to say that I wish that I was 21 (currently 20), so that I could get a stiff drink: I'm going be thankful I'm not old enough to own a fire-arm, though….]

I wanna give Ganon a new dsmash: how about a parody of Link first acquiring the Master Sword, wherein Ganondorf shoves his sword into the ground with an enveloping blast accompanying the show?

Have I told you about run-specials? When running, some characters'll have access to a B-move. Ganondorf can have a run-special like his sword-charge in Twilight Princess! Release B to strike!

[PROTIP: hallucinations make a good day better, and a bad day worse! ]

I'm all for a lagless Gerudo, and a damage-increase for some moves is A-OK! Go watch some Kevin-matches of Garou, and you'll see a multi-hitting super-move that looks like Ganondorf's usmash: I want that, with darkness having a similar effect to the hit-stun of that move.



My head hurts….

 

[SaltyKracka]

Man!

I am SO fired!

….

Psst! (Ask me if I care!)

Do you?

The Bad and Ugly:
Hm! Partly just to the chagrin of the community, Tingle's going into Riot; and he has a platform-generating special. Further, Ganon needs his new Warlock Punch to fight against Riot-Bowser (who now has a knockback-reduction of 700%): the wind (which I may or may not have mentioned, and'm too emotionally messed-up to care to check) should be his main offensive tool against Koopa.

Or he could just use his ridiculouly awesome new Fsmash, and you could actually give Ganon a projectile, which would help with more than just ONE character. After all, if he can connect with a WP, he can connect with anything else much easier, and the projectiles I suggested can be used for gimping as well. In all, they add much more to his game than the WP, which, let us face it, is pretty much a joke as a viable move in competitive Smash.

I've thought about stacking darkness, but I'm very worried about doing as such: eventually, a skilled Ganon can pile enough darkness that their opponent simply can't move for the remainder of the match: I'm unsure about it, but I'm not saying anything concrete 'til I can run tests.

You can always have an upper limit on how much darkness can be stacked, as well as a time limit for darkness to run out.

The Up-B:
On the ground, Ganondorf does Roy's upper, with darkness instead of flame. Aerially, Ganon kills his momentum (mostly) and begins floating. While floating, Ganon can move as one would expect, and execute any of his normal aerial attacks. The flotation runs off "fuel," and its expenditure cannot be controlled. While floating, Ganondorf's up-B is the Roy-upper: it cancels out the float completely.

Hmm, I'd rather not have Ganon's recovery be a clone of anyone else's, we've gone down that road before, and it hasn't ended well. Roy never had a good recovery in the first place, and the floating sounds a little too much like a mix of Rob and Peach's. If you're going to do this anyways, then I suggest giving the uppercut either lots of SAF, or make it begin almost instantly and go fairly far horizontally, and making it so that the float has something similar to Snake's Cypher, where he can't be hit out of it by hits that do less than 20% damage.

The Down-B:
I'd be glad to make Ganondorf's down-B a thunder-ball thing, and I'll later be glad to hunt down whoever recommended that and rip their heart out of their chest, when it comes time to implement the animation behind controlling which direction a player directs the projectile.

If you do this instead, not only will I HUNT YOU DOWN, I'll also have some suggestions to make. If it's going to be a thunder ball, then you're going to have to implement something so that it'll drag whomsoever it hits along with it. Secondly, you'll have to make it have MAJOR hitstun, as well as adding darkness.

[I'd like to take some time out to say that I wish that I was 21 (currently 20), so that I could get a stiff drink: I'm going be thankful I'm not old enough to own a fire-arm, though….]

Meh.

I wanna give Ganon a new dsmash: how about a parody of Link first acquiring the Master Sword, wherein Ganondorf shoves his sword into the ground with an enveloping blast accompanying the show?

Sounds very good. I'd like to see that in action. Or course, it'd have to have a large hitbox and blast the enemy into the sky for some good old juggling action.

Have I told you about run-specials? When running, some characters'll have access to a B-move. Ganondorf can have a run-special like his sword-charge in Twilight Princess! Release B to strike!

Eh, I'd rather have those boomeranging killer swords. That'd just be plain epic.

I'm all for a lagless Gerudo, and a damage-increase for some moves is A-OK! Go watch some Kevin-matches of Garou, and you'll see a multi-hitting super-move that looks like Ganondorf's usmash: I want that, with darkness having a similar effect to the hit-stun of that move.

Hmm, this new usmash might be quite interesting. Other than that, I'm all commented out.

P.S. Tingle? lulwut

 

[Alfonso "Missle Launch" Crawford]

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2009/01/judge-not/

• No, I do not care! Ha ha!
• Projectiles are mostly useless against Riot-Bowser, as his shell has hyper-armor: he can just turn around, back-wavedash to you, and side-B/ftilt.
• "Meh?" Alcohol not your bag? It's normally not mine, but….
• What's SAF?

I hear your Peach/ROB-complaint: it pretty much is a combination of the two, and I really ought to keep from mimicking Roy atop everything else. I'm not seeing as much sword-action as I'd expected. I'm going to need a link to video of the boomerang-swords, if you really want them; but I think having a dedicated…

Aha! I've got it! Like Riot-Bowser, Ganondorf's wavedash'll be held! It'll be his Brawl-run; canceled by any neutral attack, while his Melee-run—with cosmetic update—becomes his standard run: that way, it'll make more sense for the Twilight-based dash-attack. Whether or not Ganon jogs backwards like how Bowser's back-wavedash works is easily up for debate.

By the way, here's my Bowser-thread: booyar!

Losing the Wizard Foot may be a drag, but I'm not budging on keeping the Warlock Punch (which is likely to be competitively viable, now): where else would the projectile go? on Ganon's uair? With the new nair, the flip-kick doesn't need to be there; and having the thunder-ball mapped to a normal'd give it an excuse to be unreasonably quick.

Oh, yeah! Ganon's ftilt'll gain a sweetspot, so that it can be even STRONGER; and I wanna change his dthrow to a straight-up curb-stomp. An armored float seems pretty sweet.

 

[SaltyKracka]

• No, I do not care! Ha ha!
• Projectiles are mostly useless against Riot-Bowser, as his shell has hyper-armor: he can just turn around, back-wavedash to you, and side-B/ftilt.
• "Meh?" Alcohol not your bag? It's normally not mine, but….
• What's SAF?

1. They're only useless on his back, and that's only when he's only the ground, too. In the air, he's extremely vulnerable.
2.Super armor frames.

I hear your Peach/ROB-complaint: it pretty much is a combination of the two, and I really ought to keep from mimicking Roy atop everything else. I'm not seeing as much sword-action as I'd expected. I'm going to need a link to video of the boomerang-swords, if you really want them; but I think having a dedicated…

Nah, they aren't from anything in particular. I just though of Wind Waker 'Dorf, and how he had two swords, and then I thought, "Huh, how could I make that awesome?"...Oh! Genius thought! Instead of the uppercut, Ganon rises straight upwards (like from bottom blastzone to above FD's base level range) with the swords spinning around him like some mad top! After that, he can go into the float with the swords surrounding him, spinning every once in a while and acting as a sort of defensive shield while he recovers.

Aha! I've got it! Like Riot-Bowser, Ganondorf's wavedash'll be held! It'll be his Brawl-run; canceled by any neutral attack, while his Melee-run—with cosmetic update—becomes his standard run: that way, it'll make more sense for the Twilight-based dash-attack. Whether or not Ganon jogs backwards like how Bowser's back-wavedash works is easily up for debate.

Quite frankly, that's very good, but we'd just settle for him being much faster on the ground and in the air, really. Especially the air.

Losing the Wizard Foot may be a drag, but I'm not budging on keeping the Warlock Punch (which is likely to be competitively viable, now): where else would the projectile go? on Ganon's uair? With the new nair, the flip-kick doesn't need to be there; and having the thunder-ball mapped to a normal'd give it an excuse to be unreasonably quick.

I'm just saying that even if WP is like a super Falcon Punch now, if just won't be as useful as a projectile that can interrupt attacks and let Ganon mess with people's recoveries from above. If you do decide to keep it and make his vB a projectile, though, just make sure you implement the suggestions I made. As for uair, it can still gimp with tipman, and if you just make it somewhat faster, it'll only get better.

Oh, yeah! Ganon's ftilt'll gain a sweetspot, so that it can be even STRONGER; and I wanna change his dthrow to a straight-up curb-stomp.

I wouldn't mind ftilt getting stronger, but if you're going to change the dthrow, I'd like it if you could make it have just enough knockback so that it pops opponents right up in front of Ganondorf. We miss our Melee dthrow, after all.

 

[Alfonso "Missle Launch" Crawford]

Random Anger!

Hahahahaha! A fellow fan of Wind Waker!

It'd be sweet to have a two-sworded Ganondorf, wouldn't it? How about the sword-spin as the most lethal taunt in the game? Hell; if Mario's getting a Chain Chomp, why not give Ganon a sword-barrier? Like Mario's new move, the barrier will be Ganondorf's neutral taunt: press the taunt-button (currently defaulted to L) without a direction, and it's up for as long as… well, there's a new mechanic I'm a tad too stressed-out to explain.

The air-speed recommendation is fine; and a spiking fair is thrown in, while you're not looking. The ground-speed requires some articulation: I need to have a relationship between incarnations or something with which to work.

"Huh, how could I make that awesome?" I see I've found the right person with which to converse!

How about if the Warlock Punch is the Thunder-Ball, while in the air? I've pictured Ganon as a ground-guy, anyway; so having a tilting WP while standing can be a defense-thing. In case I'm not explaining myself well, I ought to state that the darkness of a WP is thrown in the direction the punch is tilted: it extends a considerable length beyond Ganondorf's fist. At the ledge, Ganondorf can tilt a Warlock Punch downwards, and completely ruin a recovery-attempt with the angled wind. The darkness-flames can easily be made to negate projectiles, if the wind doesn't outright reflect such oncoming attacks.


In other news, my program-tests have gone well. I've got a bit more to optimize before EPIC BATTLE-SQUARES can be witnessed, but I'm confident that things can go smoothly.

 

[Z1GMA]

Ganon really needs some kind of AA or AAA attack..

Snake had the first ever: AA-Ftilt

Why not give Ganon the first ever: AA-downtilt or utilt? : )

And yea, a projectile!

 

[SaltyKracka]

Hahahahaha! A fellow fan of Wind Waker!

It'd be sweet to have a two-sworded Ganondorf, wouldn't it? How about the sword-spin as the most lethal taunt in the game? Hell; if Mario's getting a Chain Chomp, why not give Ganon a sword-barrier? Like Mario's new move, the barrier will be Ganondorf's neutral taunt: press the taunt-button (currently defaulted to L) without a direction, and it's up for as long as… well, there's a new mechanic I'm a tad too stressed-out to explain.

Sounds good to me. I still think the spinning sword-jump would be awesome, though.

The air-speed recommendation is fine; and a spiking fair is thrown in, while you're not looking. The ground-speed requires some articulation: I need to have a relationship between incarnations or something with which to work.

Eeeeeeexcellent, Smithers. *Steeples fingers*, as for ground speed, he doesn't need to be as fast as his Melee incarnation, but he definitely needs to be faster than he is in Brawl, and at least much faster than Bowser it.

"Huh, how could I make that awesome?" I see I've found the right person with which to converse!

You know it. ;D

How about if the Warlock Punch is the Thunder-Ball, while in the air? I've pictured Ganon as a ground-guy, anyway; so having a tilting WP while standing can be a defense-thing. In case I'm not explaining myself well, I ought to state that the darkness of a WP is thrown in the direction the punch is tilted: it extends a considerable length beyond Ganondorf's fist. At the ledge, Ganondorf can tilt a Warlock Punch downwards, and completely ruin a recovery-attempt with the angled wind. The darkness-flames can easily be made to negate projectiles, if the wind doesn't outright reflect such oncoming attacks.

Do you mean that an aerial WP would instead be the dragging, stunning thunder ball?! Because that would be awesome. As for the gimping properties of it, I have some ideas. First, about the wind. Don't make it blow them away from WP. Instead, make it so that WP has a dragging effect toward it while charging, much like the old utilt. Then add the knockback of the wind to the darkness, which not only prevents them from punishing, it also causes a status ailment. Best you make it damages and stuns shields heavily as well. WP should be an attack that CANNOT be punished after it has finished.

In other news, my program-tests have gone well. I've got a bit more to optimize before EPIC BATTLE-SQUARES can be witnessed, but I'm confident that things can go smoothly.

Sweet.

Ganon really needs some kind of AA or AAA attack..

Snake had the first ever: AA-Ftilt

Why not give Ganon the first ever: AA-downtilt or utilt? : )

And yea, a projectile!

I like the counter-utilt, but a multi-hitting, cancelable dtilt or ftilt would be nice. Probably the ftilt, where he does the Sparta kick, but the spins around for a Chuck Norris-style roundhouse to the opponent's face. That would be EPIC.

And on another note, I've had an idea for the new uair. Ganon flips with his sword, in an animation similar to Marth's uair, but instead keeping all of the properties of Ganon's old uair, except for more range, damage, and a faster startup so that we can juggle with it.

 

[Alfonso "Missle Launch" Crawford]

I write quite alot of stuff, eh?

A vacuum into a wind works well! The idea behind the wind is to push Bowser off the ledge to gimp: Ganondorf's going to have a hard time getting close to Bowser, without that, as turn-around Flying Slams are going to be a big defensive hurdle. What kind of safety are you imagining for the Warlock Punch? safe on block? on whiff? I had wanted to put the majority of WP's scarce lag on its start-up, so you'll get your wish.

I can't for the life of me devise an up-B that isn't already used! Even a boom-jump would copy Wario. The sword-spin idea you've proposed, Salty', sounds suspiciously like Link's upper, which is unacceptable: mechanics-inbreeding simply can't be allowed within a "stable" of the roster, at the very least. Ganondorf doesn't really ascend often. To make the flight more noteworthy, it could allow Ganondorf to use his grounded moves while airborne (the Rest-like utilt may be usable as a pseudo-spike; and the thunder-ball effect would still be applicable)?

I think your uair-change may work, if I'm imagining things correctly. With a broken TV, I can't quickly check what Marth's uair is like, but I'll share what I've envisioned: Ganondorf aligns himself horizontally along the z-axis, and spins with his sword(s) in a fashion similar to Kirby's Melee aerial-hammer.

The combo-thing seems like a good idea, but makes Ganondorf more homogeneous than Riot is intended to allow: he's more an embodiment of old-man strength, and the powerful singular attack suits his style well. I'm not deliberately attempting to kill Ganon's combo-game: I'm just not deliberately catering to it. I know what happens, in the cases where characters are intentionally made to not combine their attacks, and I'm going to adjust Ganondorf's damage-output and knock-back accordingly.

To compense for the lack of attack-strings Ganon may have, I've got an idea; standing/walking super-armor. While wavedashing, running, or attacking, Ganondorf will not have super-armor by default; but can withstand attacks up to a certain percentage, while neutral or advancing at his slowest speed.

Would it be wrong to make Ganondorf's height such that he towers o'er Link as in Twilight Princess? The characters larger than Ganondorf would be scaled in an appropriate manner; with the possible exception of DK, who'd be slightly smaller than Ganondorf (because it's cool to think that Ganondorf's bigger than a gorilla). If Snake's taught us anything, it's that a hitbox doesn't have any need to reasonably represent an animation it accompanies: Ganondorf is not necessarily given a weakness to small opponents.

Alongside a shield-breaking dash-special—imitating Marth's Melee-special is good, you'd surely concur—a size-increase would be a great coming for fighting-games; a game wherein the powerhouses are truly as fearsome as they'd be in a real confrontation: being a big guy myself, I've carried a certain chip on my shoulder, to be sure. Hey! wouldn't a large and quick Ganondorf be able to reach far enough to combo well? (Wouldn't Bowser take up a deliciously obscene portion of any given stage?)

 

[SaltyKracka]

A vacuum into a wind works well! The idea behind the wind is to push Bowser off the ledge to gimp: Ganondorf's going to have a hard time getting close to Bowser, without that, as turn-around Flying Slams are going to be a big defensive hurdle. What kind of safety are you imagining for the Warlock Punch? safe on block? on whiff? I had wanted to put the majority of WP's scarce lag on its start-up, so you'll get your wish.

Safe on block, really. Otherwise, it seems okay. I STILL WANT A ****ING PROJECTILE GODSDAMMIT!

I can't for the life of me devise an up-B that isn't already used! Even a boom-jump would copy Wario. The sword-spin idea you've proposed, Salty', sounds suspiciously like Link's upper, which is unacceptable: mechanics-inbreeding simply can't be allowed within a "stable" of the roster, at the very least. Ganondorf doesn't really ascend often. To make the flight more noteworthy, it could allow Ganondorf to use his grounded moves while airborne (the Rest-like utilt may be usable as a pseudo-spike; and the thunder-ball effect would still be applicable)?

Meh, instead of making ground moves usable out of it, I'd simply prefer if he could jump, airdodge, or attack aerially out of it. Jumping or airdodging would cancel it, but attacking wouldn't.

I think your uair-change may work, if I'm imagining things correctly. With a broken TV, I can't quickly check what Marth's uair is like, but I'll share what I've envisioned: Ganondorf aligns himself horizontally along the z-axis, and spins with his sword(s) in a fashion similar to Kirby's Melee aerial-hammer.

Yes, but remember, it has to work almost exactly like his Brawl uair.

The combo-thing seems like a good idea, but makes Ganondorf more homogeneous than Riot is intended to allow: he's more an embodiment of old-man strength, and the powerful singular attack suits his style well. I'm not deliberately attempting to kill Ganon's combo-game: I'm just not deliberately catering to it. I know what happens, in the cases where characters are intentionally made to not combine their attacks, and I'm going to adjust Ganondorf's damage-output and knock-back accordingly.

Well here's an idea I had for making the double ftilt. The first ftilt works exactly like his Brawl one (with reduced damage and knockback, but not much), BUT has the ability to do lots of damage and stun to shields, without knocking them back. The second hit's function would be just raw power and range. Basically, the first hit is either a GTFO move, or the opponent blocks it and gets shieldpoked or broken by the second hit. Nice, eh?

To compense for the lack of attack-strings Ganon may have, I've got an idea; standing/walking super-armor. While wavedashing, running, or attacking, Ganondorf will not have super-armor by default; but can withstand attacks up to a certain percentage, while neutral or advancing at his slowest speed.

Meh, that's something for Bowser. Instead, you can just add Super Armor Frames to all of Ganon's smashes.

Would it be wrong to make Ganondorf's height such that he towers o'er Link as in Twilight Princess? The characters larger than Ganondorf would be scaled in an appropriate manner; with the possible exception of DK, who'd be slightly smaller than Ganondorf (because it's cool to think that Ganondorf's bigger than a gorilla). If Snake's taught us anything, it's that a hitbox doesn't have any need to reasonably represent an animation it accompanies: Ganondorf is not necessarily given a weakness to small opponents.

Perfectly fine by me, as long as it lets him still hit enemies that are smaller than him. On another note, you should definitely make sure Ganondorf has one of the better (non-tether) grab ranges. After all, if he's going to be such a big guy, he deserves a grab range to match.

Alongside a shield-breaking dash-special—imitating Marth's Melee-special is good, you'd surely concur—a size-increase would be a great coming for fighting-games; a game wherein the powerhouses are truly as fearsome as they'd be in a real confrontation: being a big guy myself, I've carried a certain chip on my shoulder, to be sure. Hey! wouldn't a large and quick Ganondorf be able to reach far enough to combo well? (Wouldn't Bowser take up a deliciously obscene portion of any given stage?)

I still think that the double sword boomerang would be obscenely cool for a dash special, but your idea is okay. As for comboing, the real thing that's needed is the ability to cancel....moves....I just had an awesome idea. Ganon can cancel any of his Smashes or B attacks into his jab. When he's charging or using any of them, he can just press A and jab right out of it to interrupt.

 

[Alfonso "Missle Launch" Crawford]

• You got a projectile while in the air! Silence!
• I had actually planned to have normals not cancel flotation. Wouldn't it be cool if jumping didn't cancel the float, either?
• For the ftilt, I'll give Ganondorf the "boot to blade"-move Mitsurugi from Soul Calibur has: it'll be a safety-move; something to cover for whiffs.
• Bowser doesn't have any kind of frontal armor: he's only protected on his back with unbreakable armor.
• Being able to cancel his moves with jabs is practical, but unthematic and makes Ganondorf mindlessly safe. Smushing will give you half of your idea.

I've got a better idea for a new dsmash: the Triforce-blast boss-Zelda used in Twilight Princess. I'd rather give Ganon's smash-charges wind instead of armor: it'd be setup to protect more than ruin. The usmash would have a low-laying horizontal wind, and we know what kind of wind the fsmash will have. You want people running to you, with dsmash, so it gets no wind: its attack might as well negate projectiles.

 

[Union of Darkness]

Well this is interesting. I suppose I can talk about what I believe would be the ideal Ganon.

Reference video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx0Yfg6EasQ


Special Moves

B: Chargeable projectile. Pretty much like Lucario’s Aura Sphere except it’s electric.

Up-B: Honestly, I think something like ROB’s Up-B would be appropriate. Except it doesn’t last as long and you can maneuver better like with Pit’s Up-B.

Front-B: Flame Choke is a-okay IMO.

Down-B: Spinning attack with the sword. So it works like Link’s Up-B (reference at 2:55 in video). If done in the air it floats you for a few seconds. Think Fox’s Reflector only a lot slower in between.

Smashes

F-smash: Strong backhand attack that can be angled. But wait, it can reflect projectiles too.

U-smash: I’m not going to mince words, Ganon steals Mewtwo’s U-smash.

D-smash: Ground slam with Ganon’s fist. It has a little dark energy shock wave that goes around Ganon.

Normal Moves

A: Faster jab like in Melee.

F-tilt: Quick elbow thrust, and then a sword slash for the second hit (reference at 1:12 in video). So it works like Snake’s F-tilt.

D-tilt: Sword sweep. Think Ike’s D-tilt but faster and without the spiking property.

Up-tilt: Quick sword thrust straight upwards.

N-air: Quick dark energy discharge all around Ganon. Very low landing lag.

F-air: It’s like the new F-smash angled slightly downward. This reflects projectiles too. Moderate landing lag.

U-air: Same as the old U-air except Ganon uses his sword. Very low landing lag.

D-air: I wouldn’t think of changing the most satisfying meteor smash in the game.


So that’s my opinion on the matter. I doubt any of this could actually be done but it’s nice to dream.

 

[Alfonso "Missle Launch" Crawford]

I wanted to do something like your down-B, but it got shot-down by an AiB-advisor: I said that wavedash→ftilt would do the same thing as WF on the ground, and floating stomps would cover the aerial WF; but that simply wouldn't do, to him. I wanted to work the down-B like an pseudo-counter; a heavily armored slash that wouldn't get any less satisfying.

Now that I think about it, I can replace Ganondorf's bair with a slash. Have you ever played Darkstalkers as Bishamon? Bishamon has a far-reaching sword-slash (charge black → forward + punch) that's a shoe-in for a new bair.

Okay! Now, whoever posts here next must make one utterly nonsensical and out-of-place recommendation for Ganondorf! (I'm not implying anything; just bored with a strained imagination.)

 

[SaltyKracka]

I wanted to do something like your down-B, but it got shot-down by an AiB-advisor: I said that wavedash→ftilt would do the same thing as WF on the ground, and floating stomps would cover the aerial WF; but that simply wouldn't do, to him. I wanted to work the down-B like an pseudo-counter; a heavily armored slash that wouldn't get any less satisfying.

Now that I think about it, I can replace Ganondorf's bair with a slash. Have you ever played Darkstalkers as Bishamon? Bishamon has a far-reaching sword-slash (charge black → forward + punch) that's a shoe-in for a new bair.

Okay! Now, whoever posts here next must make one utterly nonsensical and out-of-place recommendation for Ganondorf! (I'm not implying anything; just bored with a strained imagination.)

If you're giving G-dorf a slash bair, you'd **** well better make it like a combination of Ike's and his Melee one. i.e. It's very similar to Ike's, but is angled downward and can **** over crouching characters.

As for my ridiculous suggestion, I wish for you to give Ganon Tyrant Rave ver. B as his new vB, both aerially and on the ground. If you don't know what it is, I suggest you look it up, for it is awesome.

 

[Alfonso "Missle Launch" Crawford]

Tyrant Rave ver. B, eh? Are we talking normal, or EX? Normal TRvB has alot of room for potential darkness…. But that'd turn him into Bowser!

 

[Z1GMA]

Since D3 has Waddle Dees and stuff, it'll be cool if Ganon could
summon those burning, flying skull-bats from the games!

 

[SaltyKracka]

Tyrant Rave ver. B, eh? Are we talking normal, or EX? Normal TRvB has alot of room for potential darkness…. But that'd turn him into Bowser!

No, EX. Just because having Ganon either shoot a gigantic fireball a short distance as an anti-aerial move, or just rocketing across the stage encased in a large purple fireball would be too epic.

 

[Alfonso "Missle Launch" Crawford]

… too epic.

A reliable killer, at close-range; a slow devastator, at long-range… do we have a new down-B, Mr. Kracka?

 

[SaltyKracka]

A reliable killer, at close-range; a slow devastator, at long-range… do we have a new down-B, Mr. Kracka?

I'd rather like that, yes. But just one more addition. They must both either negate or reflect projectiles (preferably with the grounded version reflecting, while the aerial version negates). Because Ganon needs to be more of a tank, just having every attack bounce off of him while he crushes them.

 

[Alfonso "Missle Launch" Crawford]

Revelation

To make the most of nair and bair, the new nair's range is reduced, and bair is changed to Ganon's old nair (reversed, of course). Both kicks of the new bair will hit hard.

It'd be better for the jab to reflect projectiles: wavedash-jabs will cover long advances while walk-up grabs (lol, armor) will handle up-close situations. The Tyrant Rave's far too slow to be a reliable reflector: negation it can handle, however, with aplomb. The uppercut of the new down-B could deflect projectiles upwards at increased strength, as a fun twist.

 

[SaltyKracka]

To make the most of nair and bair, the new nair's range is reduced, and bair is changed to Ganon's old nair (reversed, of course). Both kicks of the new bair will hit hard.

It'd be better for the jab to reflect projectiles: wavedash-jabs will cover long advances while walk-up grabs (lol, armor) will handle up-close situations. The Tyrant Rave's far too slow to be a reliable reflector: negation it can handle, however, with aplomb. The uppercut of the new down-B could deflect projectiles upwards at increased strength, as a fun twist.

Well, I was thinking that you could do one of two things with Tyrant Rave. You can either make it so that the uppercut causes MASSIVE HITSTUN, or you can just make it so that it skips the uppercut and goes straight into the fireball.

And the aerial version, starring Ganon as Rocket Man.... well, some SAF would be nice for the startup.

 

[Alfonso "Missle Launch" Crawford]

Going straight to the fireball is Tyrant Rave ver. A, if you didn't know.

AERIALLY: ver. A
GROUNDED: ver. B

Sound good? Armoring such an attack seems like the natural thing to do, so that much'll happen. The beauty of rebuilding instead of hacking is that I can easily control every aspect of the game: hit-stun is certainly one of those aspects. So you know, only the dominating "pixies," such as Fox and Meta Knight are slated to have Brawl-like hit-stun; and even then they're going to be built around that to still dominate in their own way. (Bowser and giant Ganondorf will destroy them! They'll never even catch Sonic!) Don't worry about TRb not working properly, is what I'm saying.


'Nother programming-update! For the time being, I've removed collision from the program. My collision-methods are defective, and it's better for me to focus on establishing… I, uh, just figured out the problem. Just getting things off my chest makes things alot easier to do than if I'd just plowed along in silence.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Going straight to the fireball is Tyrant Rave ver. A, if you didn't know.

AERIALLY: ver. A
GROUNDED: ver. B

Sound good? Armoring such an attack seems like the natural thing to do, so that much'll happen. The beauty of rebuilding instead of hacking is that I can easily control every aspect of the game: hit-stun is certainly one of those aspects. So you know, only the dominating "pixies," such as Fox and Meta Knight are slated to have Brawl-like hit-stun; and even then they're going to be built around that to still dominate in their own way. (Bowser and giant Ganondorf will destroy them! They'll never even catch Sonic!) Don't worry about TRb not working properly, is what I'm saying.


'Nother programming-update! For the time being, I've removed collision from the program. My collision-methods are defective, and it's better for me to focus on establishing… I, uh, just figured out the problem. Just getting things off my chest makes things alot easier to do than if I'd just plowed along in silence.

If straight to the fireball is ver. A, and uppercut to fireball is ver. B, then I suppose that the rocket across the screen would be aerial ver. Gamma, wouldn't it?

 

[B!squick]

Lol, I just had a crazy idea for the UpB. A portrait appears in front of Ganon and another positioned by the player (through use of the touch screen?) appears in a similar fasion facing up. Ganon jumps through and wha la. Think Phantom Ganon from the Forrest Temple in OoT meets Portal, only without the Phantom Horse... or hell, let's have a Phantom horse too, that'd be sweet.

 

[Alfonso "Missle Launch" Crawford]

I'm starting to worry about the negative effects of a size-increase: I'm not sure that I can make it work.