What would change if Marth Tipper was easier to hit? (General Buff Discussion)

[Vipermoon]

They need to fix Uair's tipper. It's waaaayyy too small (specifically right above Marth) and don't tell me I don't know how to space it because I'm an expert on spacing that move at this point.

 

[Locuan]

They need to fix Uair's tipper. It's waaaayyy too small (specifically right above Marth) and don't tell me I don't know how to space it because I'm an expert on spacing that move at this point.

This reads as if you've lost many tournament sets because of U-airs tipper

On another note, I'm just wary of what they have to do with Marth to make him better. A bit too much in the right direction can make him crazy good because of his disjoints. At least in the balancing sense. If it were up to personal preference, make him the best

 

[AkumaKing]

This reads as if you've lost many tournament sets because of U-airs tipper

On another note, I'm just wary of what they have to do with Marth to make him better. A bit too much in the right direction can make him crazy good because of his disjoints. At least in the balancing sense. If it were up to personal preference, make him the best

Same. If they buff his sweetspot size, for example, he could easily become overpowered if it's too much. I'd be fine with an easier to land tipper (more KOs for me), but that doesn't mean it should be so. I stand by my opinion that he needs combos off of throws and a less laggy fair. Not too less laggy, maybe just decrease the lag by 1-3 frames. If they do, however, buff the sweetspot's size, I'd be ecstatic. It would be like getting that one present you never asked for, didn't want, but ended up loving anyways.

 

[FallenHero]

I would love if Marth was the way he was in Brawl where he was so good, but I already know there would be a ton of people complaining about him since the community for this game always seems to complain For real though, as much as I want Brawl Marth in this game with the same tipper power he has now he could be too good. I don't think his disjoints would be too much of a problem though. I would honestly hate it if they increased tipper range though, I would have to relearn how to space with Marth and I wouldn't feel as good when I land one.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I love using Marth in this game, and though he is buffed from the initial release, he still feels incomplete to me. I made a list of a few things that irk me about Marth that I would like to see buffed. (just a note, I am not saying that he needs all these buffs, but there are just a few things I would like to see happen. In all honestly, more follow ups on his Forward and Down Throw would satisfy me). I know this is a Marth discussion, but I also listed how these changes would be shared with Lucina. What do you people think? I would love to hear what you think too!


Marth change wish list

· All hitboxes of Up Tilt deal 1% more damage. From 5%/6%/9% -> 6%/7%/10%. (seems far too weak in terms of damage)

· Up Tilt follows the sword trails more reliably. (more active. I swear it misses when it looks like it should have hit)

· Down Tilt deals 1% more damage on the sourspot. From 7% -> 8%. (again, seems weak on damage. Ok, after thinking about it it still irks me on its sourspot damage, but I would rather Up Tilt get a damage buff before this. If Up Tilt got the suggested buff and this didn't, at least their sourspot and tipper damages would match)

· Forward Smash altered animation. Gives the move slightly more range. (whether it be the same as Brawl or slightly less than Brawl, I would just like it to be a bit longer than what it is now, though I do think the other changes I suggest are more important)

· Neutral Aerial links slightly more consistently. (similar to how it links a bit better in Melee for example. Even Roy's Nair in this game links better than Marth's)

· Forward Aerial deals 1% more damage on all hitboxes. From 7%/10% -> 8%/11%. (again seems really weak)

· Forward Aerial autocancel frames increased. (meaning it autocancels slightly later. They changed Yoshi's Bair autocancel frames, so there is nothing stopping them doing it with other characters, namely Marth)

· Forward Aerial IASA frames reduced, allowing another aerial afterwards OR Forward Aerial landing lag reduced to at least 12 frames. (I say this because it's obvious that they tried to nerf Forward Air, so if they don't give us the ability to do 2 aerials, at least make it's landing lag better)

· Up Aerial tipper hitbox is slightly larger. (This hitbox seems really small, I hope it's not just me who thinks this)

· Forward Throw has slightly less knockback and knockback growth.

· Down Throw has slightly less knockback and knockback growth.

· Dancing Blade combos more consistently.

· Dolphin Slash sweetspot deals 1% more damage. From 11% -> 12%



How the changes would affect Lucina

· All hitboxes of Up Tilt deal slightly more damage. From 7.6%(early)/8.1%(late) -> 8.1%(early)/9.1(late)

· Up Tilt follows the sword trails more reliably (more active).

· Down Tilt deals more damage. From 8.575% -> 9%

· Forward Smash altered animation. Gives the move slightly more range.

· Neutral Aerial links slightly more consistently.

· Forward Aerial deals 1% more damage. From 8.575% -> 9.575%.

· Forward Aerial autocancel frames increased (meaning it autocancels slightly later)

· Forward Aerial IASA frames reduced, allowing another aerial afterwards OR Forward Aerial landing lag reduced to at least 12 frames.

· Forward Throw has slightly less knockback and knockback growth.

· Down Throw has slightly less knockback and knockback growth.

· Dancing Blade combos more consistently.

· Dolphin Slash sweetspot deals 1% more damage. From 11% -> 12%.

 

[H-O-G]

I honestly feel all he needs 2 become top tier is give him back his short hop double fair ( an offensive player like me misses this great approach/pressure option.) decrease the knockback and growth on down and forward throw. And give him back frame data close 2 brawl and he will b a force 2 be reckoned with top 10 easy

 

[Vipermoon]

I honestly feel all he needs 2 become top tier is give him back his short hop double fair ( an offensive player like me misses this great approach/pressure option.) decrease the knockback and growth on down and forward throw. And give him back frame data close 2 brawl and he will b a force 2 be reckoned with top 10 easy

Double Fair is overrated. The act of doing a 2nd aerial out of a short hop is great and if Fair was that lagless we'd have great mid-air combos. But the actual SH double Fair isn't that great especially with 16 frames of Fair landing lag. There were 8 frames in Brawl and here watch this and tell me if you see these optimal Marths use it.

 

[H-O-G]

Double Fair is overrated. The act of doing a 2nd aerial out of a short hop is great and if Fair was that lagless we'd have great mid-air combos. But the actual SH double Fair isn't that great especially with 16 frames of Fair landing lag. There were 8 frames in Brawl and here watch this and tell me if you see these optimal Marths use it.

And I hav a video where an optimal Marth uses it and this video is 2013. I liked short hop double fair bcz it was one of my greatest approach tools vs zoners and it helped apply pressure. I am also still waiting for u to critique my videos in the other thread.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LicyH7a2zoM

 

[Vipermoon]

And I hav a video where an optimal Marth uses it and this video is 2013. I liked short hop double fair bcz it was one of my greatest approach tools vs zoners and it helped apply pressure. I am also still waiting for u to critique my videos in the other thread.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LicyH7a2zoM

Because that's what you do in that MU. Also that is slightly lower level play. Plus that's Brawl. 8 frames, like I said.

I didn't know I was obligated to critiquing each person's videos. I'm pretty sure I watched them all though.

 

[H-O-G]

Because that's what you do in that MU. Also that is slightly lower level play. Plus that's Brawl. 8 frames, like I said.

I didn't know I was obligated to critiquing each person's videos. I'm pretty sure I watched them all though.

Yh anyone can realize that was brawl u posted a brawl video as well. And that's why I stated in my post give him brawl frame data. I also know that your not obligated to but ur The Marth's board trusted advisor and u skill in the field is well recognized so I would like ur critique.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yh anyone can realize that was brawl u posted a brawl video as well. And that's why I stated in my post give him brawl frame data. I also know that your not obligated to but ur The Marth's board trusted advisor and u skill in the field is well recognized so I would like ur critique.

I am humbled. But I'm ruling Akaneia now. Afterall, someone has to while Marth is attendIng Smash 4.

Yeah I know you know that I know that you know that I know I posted Brawl. But this double Fair conversation started when you were asking for it in Smash 4. Basically what I'm saying is Marth will benefit indirectly in other ways more than he'll benefit from double Fair itself if double Fair existed. Like the Fair to Nair Fair Uair midair combo or Fair to DS and DB or double aerial landing Nair1 and Uair or Fair to Bair (for when they roll) or SHFF Fair.

Edit: I posted in the video thread. Before I was just busy.

 

[H-O-G]

I am humbled. But I'm ruling Akaneia now. Afterall, someone has to while Marth is attendIng Smash 4.

Yeah I know you know that I know that you know that I know I posted Brawl. But this double Fair conversation started when you were asking for it in Smash 4. Basically what I'm saying is Marth will benefit indirectly in other ways more than he'll benefit from double Fair itself if double Fair existed. Like the Fair to Nair Fair Uair midair combo or Fair to DS and DB or double aerial landing Nair1 and Uair or Fair to Bair (for when they roll) or SHFF Fair.

I got ya

 

[Bowserboy3]

Double Fair is overrated. The act of doing a 2nd aerial out of a short hop is great and if Fair was that lagless we'd have great mid-air combos. But the actual SH double Fair isn't that great especially with 16 frames of Fair landing lag. There were 8 frames in Brawl and here watch this and tell me if you see these optimal Marths use it.

About the landing lag frames, I often wondered how it would be in Smash 4, but then I thought about it. It's obvious that they have tried to nerf Fair, so just giving us the option to do double Fair would still give us options, just make it less... OP so to speak (I can't think of the right way to describe it, I hope you get me) because of the landing lag.

 

[Vipermoon]

About the landing lag frames, I often wondered how it would be in Smash 4, but then I thought about it. It's obvious that they have tried to nerf Fair, so just giving us the option to do double Fair would still give us options, just make it less... OP so to speak (I can't think of the right way to describe it, I hope you get me) because of the landing lag.

Try using the Smooth Lander equipment on Marth. It'll be similar to Brawl.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Try using the Smooth Lander equipment on Marth. It'll be similar to Brawl.

Yeah I have tried that before, and it feels nice. I just want the option back to be able to do another aerial after Fair. Even with the landing lag his aerials currently have, it would give Marth more options, and be a bit more risky I suppose compared to how it was before.

And more reliable throw follow ups. Or ones that you can do at higher percents. Please.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah I have tried that before, and it feels nice. I just want the option back to be able to do another aerial after Fair. Even with the landing lag his aerials currently have, it would give Marth more options, and be a bit more risky I suppose compared to how it was before.

And more reliable throw follow ups. Or ones that you can do at higher percents. Please.

Yeah unfortunately we aren't getting those things. But hey, add some speed equipment and you shorthop will be high enough for a second aerial. Change the knockback ratio to 0.9 and the throws will be amazing too.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Yeah unfortunately we aren't getting those things. But hey, add some speed equipment and you shorthop will be high enough for a second aerial. Change the knockback ratio to 0.9 and the throws will be amazing too.

Well I will be honest, I doubt they will give us the option to do double aerials from Fair again, as much as I would like to see it. But I can't help but feel Fair needs some sort of change.

It's possible they could of course lower the landing lag for Fair again. I mean, they have changed one of Marth's moves twice in terms of ending lag, they lowered Utilt's endlag by 3 frames one patch, then lowered it by 3 more in another patch, so even though they lowered Fair's landing lag once, that isn't completely out of the question. It's possible they could just give it better auto cancel frames too, as they suck. They changed Yoshi's Bair's autocancel frames (albeit, made it worse, but it's proof that they could edit auto cancel frames), so there is nothing stopping them looking into auto cancel frames with Marth.

I also don't think that them changing knockback/knockback growth on his throws would be too absurd either. It's a possibility, as they have done it with many characters.

Marth is one of those characters for me that though is undoubtedly much better than in the initial release, still has things that need looking into. Regardless, I will never stop playing Marth. Character loyalty prevails! Besides, I just love Marth as a character anyway, so I'll always use him.

 

[kesterstudios]

Well I will be honest, I doubt they will give us the option to do double aerials from Fair again, as much as I would like to see it. But I can't help but feel Fair needs some sort of change.

It's possible they could of course lower the landing lag for Fair again. I mean, they have changed one of Marth's moves twice in terms of ending lag, they lowered Utilt's endlag by 3 frames one patch, then lowered it by 3 more in another patch, so even though they lowered Fair's landing lag once, that isn't completely out of the question. It's possible they could just give it better auto cancel frames too, as they suck. They changed Yoshi's Bair's autocancel frames (albeit, made it worse, but it's proof that they could edit auto cancel frames), so there is nothing stopping them looking into auto cancel frames with Marth.

I also don't think that them changing knockback/knockback growth on his throws would be too absurd either. It's a possibility, as they have done it with many characters.

Marth is one of those characters for me that though is undoubtedly much better than in the initial release, still has things that need looking into. Regardless, I will never stop playing Marth. Character loyalty prevails! Besides, I just love Marth as a character anyway, so I'll always use him.

i agree. fair doesn't have to be exactly like brawl marth's fair, because that move was overpowered. lower landing and better auto cancel frames is good enough for me. and yeah they should fix his throws and also his down air

 

[Vipermoon]

And his hitboxes in almost all of his moves...

 

[H-O-G]

And his hitboxes in almost all of his moves...

Moon is totally right on this his hitboxes are whack idk y they haven't begun fixing them yet.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Moon is totally right on this his hitboxes are whack idk y they haven't begun fixing them yet.

Yeah, there are a few that bug me more than others, such as his Utilt, Fair and there is one part of Dancing Blade (can't remember which part, it might be side 3) that can completely miss the opponent. What even is this?

 

[kesterstudios]

the devs should make marth's fair hit a frame sooner, so it matches the hitbox better I guess. I don't know about the other moves though, but they should be fixed someway too

 

[Ako.]

I feel like if marth kept the same tipper fair from melee and pm, his combo game will be better.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I don't know what others have been doing in place of Double Fair, or in terms of approaches, but I have been finding a bit of success with Full Hop Fair, then Nair as I come down. It's a bit harder to punish as its got less landing lag. Tbh, I think Fair needs at least the 12 frames of landing lag that Nair has. It would still be more than in Brawl where I think it was 9 frames.

 

[Didier337]

Need:
-Fix dancing blade 2 so light and small characters won't fall out of it
-Fix Dancing blade down 4 where frame 3 N-airs, Fast Fallers, and Bowsers can't react after being caught in it.
-F-air to become faster or less landing lag
-F-throw and D-throw to not launch them so far and high

Want:
-D-smash and D-air has little to no use but they do cover a good amount of space, I wouldn't mind if they make it fast but weaker.
-Reduce the frame lag on dancing blade 1-3, specifically 1 to follow up with other moves
-Fast Fall
-B-throw to launch them at a lower angle
-Reduce knock back on U-tilt and frame lag for better follow up.

 

[Vipermoon]

I definitely agree that Utilt needs less base-KB (and more damage so that it can still kill later on). This will make things like Fsmash follow-ups work for longer percent ranges.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I came back here because I couldn't find the best place to discuss it, but here seems a good start.

Something else came to my attention the other day. Is it just me, or does Utilt bug anybody else?

Like, 9% for a tip, 6% for a sourspot, and 5% for his body... Though it sounds nitpicky, I feel an at least 1% damage increase would make the move more rewarding. At least then it would match up with the 10%/7% of his Dtilt. Of course I am sure they might lower the base knockback a little if they were to do this.

But what bugs me most about this move is its hitboxes. Like the start of the move shows the animation clearly hitting the opponent, but it doesn't hit them. It's either that the move has small hitboxes at the start that don't match the animation, or that the hitboxes don't come out until later, or a combination of both. Either way, has anybody else noticed this? Or am I just missing something?

 

[Rebel13]

Utilt just has animation that doesn't match its hitbox. Not only does the startup have Marth's sword go right through them (if they are standing in front of you), it also fails to extend back as far as the animation. I've resorted to using turn-around Utilt just to connect properly at times. This is made a little more strange because Bair seems to have an enormous hitbox relative to the animation.

Mewtwo actually has this problem worse.

 

[kesterstudios]

Marth's hitboxes not matching some of his moves is definitely true. I was messing around with Marth and near the end of the swing of fair, the sword was going right through the opponent and not hitting him at all. They need to make fair last a frame longer (hitbox duration will be 4 frames like was in brawl and like his other aerials) so it shouldn't whiff like that. fair needs less landing lag too, like maybe 12 frames instead of 16. If the devs are afraid of changing auto cancel frames then they should at least lower the landing lag, then fair would be just fine.

Up tilt and down smash should do 1% more damage. Marth also needs less knockback on all of his throws except up throw and the dair meteor hitbox needs to be bigger along with some other sword trail adjustments with his moves. Then Marth will be great again.

 

[Bowserboy3]

He also needs some form of safe approach option. Either less landing lag on Fair, or even better, better autocancel frames so we can fast fall it IMO.

 

[Vipermoon]

Dsmash should do 2% more on the front hit actually. Look at Link's. His was already FAR superior, now they buffed it in KB and it kills at 90

 

[kesterstudios]

Dsmash should do 2% more on the front hit actually. Look at Link's. His was already FAR superior, now they buffed it in KB and it kills at 90

yeah that's good too

 

[Bowserboy3]

I had an awesome dream last night where I dreamed I was asked to help with the balancing patch for February. I was tasked with making Marth a more solid character. Sadly, it was just a dream, but I wanted to discuss what I think Marth needs. I have listed lots of changes I think would be useful to Marth, along with some misc changes that would be cool. Generally, the first bunch is all I feel Marth drasically needs. Other changes would be nice. What does everyone else think?

Spoiler: Marth Changes

What I feel Marth needs above all else:

• Utilt damage increase by 1% on all hitboxes. 5%/6%/9% to 6%/7%/10%. To compensate for the damage increase, the BKB or KGB is reduced ever so slightly so that it still functions as it does now.
• Utilt also matches its animation better.
• Fair and Uair have better auto cancel frames. From frames 36 and 38 to both frame 30/31ish. Fair could be seen as safer if it could be fast falled and auto cancelled earlier, and maybe even string a couple together. Uair having batter auto cancel frames would make juggling more effective/easier.
• Uair tipper hitbox is slightly larger.
• Fthrow and Dthrow do less base knockback, allowing for guaranteed follow ups until at least 35ish%.

What I feel would also help Marth lots:

• Dtilt is out for 1 frame longer.
• Dsmash does 2% more on the front hit. 8%/12% to 10%/14%
• Fair has less landing lag. From 16 frames to at least 14 frames.
• Nair has better auto cancel frames, even if it's just enough that it can auto cancel out of a short hop without fast fall. From frame 47 to frame 40.
• Fair deals 1% more damage. 7%/10% to 8%/11%
• Dair meteor window increased. From frame 11 to frames 10-11.
• Dolphin Slash deals 1% more damage. 11% to 12%.

Misc wants/changes:

• Run speed increased. 1.785 to 1.8.
• Non tipper hitboxes have an increased hitlag modifier. From 0.7 to 0.8. (I don't see this happening though)
• Fsmash has a slightly changed animation giving it slightly more range, more akin to Brawl (again, I don't see this happening, but I am allowed to wish)
• Usmash has less endlag, more akin to Brawl. Ending frame from 58 to 51 (I know the endlag in Brawl was 49, but it was the same as Fsmash, which is now 51 frames in Smash 4, so I just thought this would be more likely).
• Shield Breaker deals slightly more shield damage. 25 to 27.
• Dolphin Slash has an animation change. Rather than it showing the exaggerated tipper on it's sword trail animation, it should be one full colour like Lucina's, as tipping with Dolphin Slash makes no difference whatsoever.
• Counter play's Marth's SFX's occasionally along with his grunt, similar to what happened with Lucina in 1.0.8.

 

[kesterstudios]

I had an awesome dream last night where I dreamed I was asked to help with the balancing patch for February. I was tasked with making Marth a more solid character. Sadly, it was just a dream, but I wanted to discuss what I think Marth needs. I have listed lots of changes I think would be useful to Marth, along with some misc changes that would be cool. Generally, the first bunch is all I feel Marth drasically needs. Other changes would be nice. What does everyone else think?

Spoiler: Marth Changes

What I feel Marth needs above all else:

• Utilt damage increase by 1% on all hitboxes. 5%/6%/9% to 6%/7%/10%. To compensate for the damage increase, the BKB or KGB is reduced ever so slightly so that it still functions as it does now.
• Utilt also matches its animation better.
• Fair and Uair have better auto cancel frames. From frames 36 and 38 to both frame 30/31ish. Fair could be seen as safer if it could be fast falled and auto cancelled earlier, and maybe even string a couple together. Uair having batter auto cancel frames would make juggling more effective/easier.
• Uair tipper hitbox is slightly larger.
• Fthrow and Dthrow do less base knockback, allowing for guaranteed follow ups until at least 35ish%.

What I feel would also help Marth lots:

• Dtilt is out for 1 frame longer.
• Dsmash does 2% more on the front hit. 8%/12% to 10%/14%
• Fair has less landing lag. From 16 frames to at least 14 frames.
• Nair has better auto cancel frames, even if it's just enough that it can auto cancel out of a short hop without fast fall. From frame 47 to frame 40.
• Fair deals 1% more damage. 7%/10% to 8%/11%
• Dair meteor window increased. From frame 11 to frames 10-11.
• Dolphin Slash deals 1% more damage. 11% to 12%.

Misc wants/changes:

• Run speed increased. 1.785 to 1.8.
• Non tipper hitboxes have an increased hitlag modifier. From 0.7 to 0.8. (I don't see this happening though)
• Fsmash has a slightly changed animation giving it slightly more range, more akin to Brawl (again, I don't see this happening, but I am allowed to wish)
• Usmash has less endlag, more akin to Brawl. Ending frame from 58 to 51 (I know the endlag in Brawl was 49, but it was the same as Fsmash, which is now 51 frames in Smash 4, so I just thought this would be more likely).
• Shield Breaker deals slightly more shield damage. 25 to 27.
• Dolphin Slash has an animation change. Rather than it showing the exaggerated tipper on it's sword trail animation, it should be one full colour like Lucina's, as tipping with Dolphin Slash makes no difference whatsoever.
• Counter play's Marth's SFX's occasionally along with his grunt, similar to what happened with Lucina in 1.0.8.

The needs you listed make a lot of sense, but I highly doubt theyre going to buff fair and upair autocancel frames. Like Marth, other characters have bad autocancel frames and the devs never buffed any of them in the patches, just nerfed them (diddy and Yoshi)

I feel like the rest of stuff on here isn't that necessary except the dsmash buff and dair. I highly doubt nair autocancel frames would be buffed, because most characters' nairs don't autocancel in a short hop.

I might as well just list out what I think Marth needs.:

Hitbox and sword trail visual adjustments on up tilt and other moves
Up tilt: Damage increase 6%/5%/9% -> 7%/6%/10%
Down smash: Damage increase 8%/12% -> 10%/14% (hit 1), Damage increase 12% -> 13% (hit 2, base)
Forward aerial: Hitbox duration increase frames 6-8 -> frames 6-9, Landing lag reduce 16 frames -> 12 frames
Up aerial: Landing lag reduce 14 frames -> 13 frames
Down aerial: Meteor hitbox size increase (no longer has to be tipped)
Forward throw: Knockback reduce 100 bkb -> 70 bkb
Down throw: Knockback reduce 95 bkb -> 80 bkb, Damage reduce 5% -> 4%
Up throw: Damage increase 4% -> 5%, Knockback reduce 70 bkb -> 60 bkb (its still stronger than what it was)
Back throw: Knockback reduce 80 bkb -> 50 bkb (not necessary, just to make marth closer to the way he was before)
Counter: MAKE MARTH TALK AGAIN WHEN DOING HIS COUNTER
and maybe Up aerial's tipper hitbox should increase

 

[Vipermoon]

I mostly agree with the last two posts.

Some thoughts though:

Either pummel should do slighly more damage (like 2.5) OR throws do the same damage as Roy's. Grabs need slighly more reward. Uthrow shouldn't be stronger unless they weaken rage (which I wish they would).

I wouldn't decrease the base knockback of back throw. Smash 4's KB increase and angle decrease of Bthrow are buffs. Fthrow and Dthrow should get only a little bit less base KB. It's a character attribute in this game for him to not have good grab followups and I feel the need to buff him while keeping it that way.

I don't agree with a damage increase on Fair. Other Fairs in this game have similarly low damage. It does need better autocancel though. Frame 30-32 so that we can fast fall but not fast fall immedietely (it would need to be frame 28 for that) this way there's skill required with autocancelling Fair. Uair needs the same autocancel as Fair. Nair should have a little bit less (enough so you can do full hop buffer fast fall). Dair needs to AC on 48 like previous. A little bit better pre-hitbox autocancel on all aerials except Fair.

Roy should get the same AC buffs Marth gets.

Jab 2 should have less end lag.

Dash Attack should have less end lag and the tipper needs more knockback growth.

Dsmash +2% on front. If they decrease it in lag, 2 frames is fine to bring it inline with Roy's.

Usmash honestly with how early it kills, it doesn't need less lag. What it needs is a new animation. The current, twitchy animation is BS. Disgusting for what should be an elegant Marth animation. However the tipper needs to be slightly easier. They can do that by moving the non tipper hitbox down, this way there is less overlap. If we need to compensate for that, decrease the tipper kbg by 5 and increase bkb by 5 (to match non tipper values) which will make it only slightly weaker.

Uair needs its non-tipper hitbox also moved down.

Marth's arm hitboxes on most of his moves are in most cases smaller than the sword hitboxes. Bring them to the same size as the sword ones. Don't add body hitboxes. Yes Marth used to have them in the glory days but it is a character attribute for Roy to have them and Marth to not.

Fsmash needs its hitboxes moved slightly outwards to match the animation.

Utilt needs 1% more damage with less base KB to compensate and make follow-ups possible at later percents. It should have its end lag reduce by a frame.

Ftilt needs a frame less end lag.

Either increase the duration of Dtilt OR take a couple frames off of it to be in-line with Roy's and Brawl Marth's. Considering most Dtilt's are 2 active frames in this game and they were also reduced from the typical 3, it's okay if they can't increase duration.

Jab 2 needs bigger hitboxes and larger animation so you can do tipper Jab 1 to Jab 2 without it missing.

Also maybe a little more KBG on Jab 1 to make followups easier. A little more BKB on Nair 1 would be cool too.

Dancing Blade 1 needs 10-15 less knockback growth so DB2 stops missing at early percents (they obviously don't want to raise the sword in DB2 so we'll do it this way). DB1 also needs a slightly faster animation (through a frame rate multiplier) that allows it to start on frame 6 (like Melee) and brings the total frames to the mid to high 30s.

Make it so that DB is a slightly better air stall. He currently doesn't have good ways of landing that dash to shield can't beat.

Restore the timing windows to how they were at game release for aerial DB so that we don't accidently do DB2 off-stage whe trying to Uspecial.

DB3 down's new angle is actually slightly too high for anyone but fast fallers; 44 -> 40 would be nice. I want aerial DB3-down to SPIKE. And for Roy, I want aerial DB3-up to spike like Melee.

DB4 Down needs to end on frame 65 instead of 71 like Brawl (or end it on frame 60 like Melee so we can attack shields without worry lol). Also gives us more time to possibly tech chase just like how DB4-up can set-up juggles.

Counter's Attack, Ftilt, Utilt, Jab 2, and Dair could have another active frame at the end because there should be if you look at how long there are sword trails without hitboxes.

Fair definitely needs another active frame (frame 9, good job mentioning that before me guys).

Uair needs a frame 10.

I'm fine with current landing lag. The autocancels are bad, but the landing lag is decent since that one buff. If I were forced to reduce something I'd take a frame off Fair's.

A slightly bigger spike hitbox on Dair would be nice that way we accidently get frame 10 or 12 less often. 10 more base knockback on Dair spike because it is way too weak. Look at Brawl, that spike started spiking (tumble knockback) before 20%! The tipper Dair (13%) needs more knockback (either growth or base). And if they could make the vertical knockback 11% sword hitbox hit more often by changing the hitbox ID (so that it out prioritizes the hilt/arm horizontal 11% hit) that would be cool to enable a better juggle/combo game for Dair.

It would be cool to have Melee's 1.8 run speed or something slightly higher than 1.8. It would be even cooler (WAY cooler) to have our walk acceleration increase from 0 to 0.5. Air speed should stay the same. Fall speed could increase to 1.65 but with the same Gravity (fall speed acceleration) so it really wouldn't be noticeable.

We need some way of creating Jab Locks with Jab like we used to. If they could bring back the frame 4 hitboxes and give those hitboxes the knockback values jab used to have (with the sakurai angle) then frame 4 can be our jab lock frame (we would have to be pretty close-up though to avoid frame 5).

Dolphin Slash NEEDS much much larger hitbox sizes to match the animation. If DS were to do 12% it needs adjusted KB so it isn't stronger. It would be really cool if the 7% hit on DS had more BKB so we can more safely pressure the edge, gimp off stage/better trade against gimpers, and follow up on Dthrow safely.

I know standing grab range is universally low in Smash 4 and Marth's is still decent but it would be nice to have slightly better grab range (on all grabs actually). Since Marth's grab reward is so low it would also be nice to have slightly less lag on dash and pivot grab.

They should NERF SB's kill power. In return make it so only the TIPPER has more shield damage. Idk about Lucina but whatever. I just think something like a shield break should be harder to do so getting a tipper sounds right (like Melee, the tipper did more shield damage). I'm serious when I say I want a move named Shield Breaker to break shields and not necessarily kill. Also the hitboxes go WAY past the sword. Something should be done about that.

What would be nice is if SB could charge faster in the air so we could use it for recovery more. Not really important but I'm full of ideas that I like sharing lol.

If we want to decrease the end lag of Fair (like ends on frame 33) then we have to significantly decrease Marth's maximum air speed (but not aerial acceleration). But same situation as throw follow-ups... Marth doesn't need double aerials to be good in my opinion (though it would be fantastic to have) so this isn't plausible. If they think this stuff is too powerful for Smash 4 then we buff the other things a la what's above^.

Also, get rid of the Utilt movement 'glitch'. I don't want to move forward or backward depending on what I buffer after Utilt. Lucina's doesn't do this.

MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANYTHING ELSE I WANT ****ING COUNTER QUOTES

 

[Bowserboy3]

The needs you listed make a lot of sense, but I highly doubt theyre going to buff fair and upair autocancel frames. Like Marth, other characters have bad autocancel frames and the devs never buffed any of them in the patches, just nerfed them (diddy and Yoshi)

I feel like the rest of stuff on here isn't that necessary except the dsmash buff and dair. I highly doubt nair autocancel frames would be buffed, because most characters' nairs don't autocancel in a short hop.

I might as well just list out what I think Marth needs.:

Hitbox and sword trail visual adjustments on up tilt and other moves
Up tilt: Damage increase 6%/5%/9% -> 7%/6%/10%
Down smash: Damage increase 8%/12% -> 10%/14% (hit 1), Damage increase 12% -> 13% (hit 2, base)
Forward aerial: Hitbox duration increase frames 6-8 -> frames 6-9, Landing lag reduce 16 frames -> 12 frames
Down aerial: Meteor hitbox size increase (no longer has to be tipped)
Forward throw: Knockback reduce 100 bkb -> 70 bkb
Down throw: Knockback reduce 95 bkb -> 80 bkb, Damage reduce 5% -> 4%
Up throw: Damage increase 4% -> 5%, Knockback reduce 70 bkb -> 60 bkb (its still stronger than what it was)
Back throw: Knockback reduce 80 bkb -> 50 bkb (not necessary, just to make marth closer to the way he was before)
Counter: MAKE MARTH TALK AGAIN WHEN DOING HIS COUNTER
and maybe Up aerial's tipper hitbox should increase

Just the top bunch of the 3 different paragraphs I stated are what I would like to see above all else, but the others were just things that I thought would either be cool, or worthwhile to Marth.

Though I think it's clear that we are all pretty set on getting his animations to match his hitboxes etc. It annoys me to no end when it looks like Utilt has actually hit, but for some reason the opponent doesn't get hit. And regarding auto-cancel frames, the fact that they even changed them (for better or worse) shows that they have thought about them in the past. Though it could be unlikely, I still think it's a possibility. I do think that having Fair safer would be immensely helpful, as it could give it much more utility, and I don't think that having double Fair (as I see many players moan for) would be the complete fix for it. Yeah, it would be nice, because we could do Fair inro Uair even, but I think just the possibility to fast fall Fair and auto cancel it would allow us to chain it together on the ground a bit easier, without it being so spammable and fantastic in the air. Thinking about it from a balance perspective, I think better autocancel frames would be better for allowing more options while keeping balance, than allowing double Fair. Less landing lag would be helpful if not. But what Vipermoon said about auto-cancel frames in the post above about sums up my opinions perfectly. I just couldn't find the right way to explain it, so thanks!

I do think Marth needs some better reward from his main grabs though. The Uthrow and Bthrow knockback increases were only buffs in my opinion. Uthrow can kill now, and Bthrow can set up more reliably for an off stage position, where Marth can shine. I do feel that just being able to follow up on his Dthrow and/or Fthrow for an actual percent range (up to at least maybe 35%), would be nice. Marth doesn't have many true combos anyway, so just being able to combo a couple of moves at low percent would be nice.

So basically, I mainly want to see; better F/Dthrow follow ups, better auto-cancel frames on Fair and Uair (or at least 12 frames of landing lag on each), a buff to Utilt making it deal 1% more damage, and have reliable animation/hitboxes on a few moves, namely Utilt and Uair.

As mentioned in the post above too, some tipper hitboxes I feel could do with a tweak. I have mentioned the Uair before, but I do also like the idea of Fsmash having a bigger tipper hitbox. I suppose it having less range would be fine if it could actually be tipped a bit easier.

I like it here. We all discuss without telling what the others think is wrong (like I see on other boards). I main Rosalina at the moment, but should Marth get a few more reliability changes, I could see myself dual maining just them.

 

[SM_Marth]

I saw someone bring up jab lock. I think Marth has a jab lock. Or it might just be luck and bad Di on my opponents part. I don't know the frames it was on but I do remember it locking them in place for a bit.

 

[Vipermoon]

I saw someone bring up jab lock. I think Marth has a jab lock. Or it might just be luck and bad Di on my opponents part. I don't know the frames it was on but I do remember it locking them in place for a bit.

Marth can jab lock with Ftilt, sour Fair, and Dair spike, but the percent range isn't very big and they don't have huge percent ranges or reliable set-ups (and it's really hard to get a sour Ftilt on the ground).

 

[Rashyboy05]

What happens if one of Marth's throws, mainly F-Throw or D-Throw because U-throw is already good for killing and I don't know what to do with B-throw, gets the 'Hoo-hah' treatment? Would Marth be better or not?

 

[Bowserboy3]

What happens if one of Marth's throws, mainly F-Throw or D-Throw because U-throw is already good for killing and I don't know what to do with B-throw, gets the 'Hoo-hah' treatment? Would Marth be better or not?

Would he be better? Yes. Would it fix his main problems? No. He still has moves that need more active frames tapped on the start or end of them to stop them whiffing, and his aerials are still too laggy and have bad auto cancel frames. We have no real ability to mix up what we do with them.

Just look at Bowser. He has the Up Throw into Up Air thing now. Does it make him better? Yes, it makes him more viable, but it doesn't fix his core problems, such as no reliable landing options, huge, combo food etc. Personally, I am not a big fan of this kind of balancing (as in you give a character something OP to counterbalance their weaknesses). First and foremost you should fix a characters main problems. A fantastic example is what they have done with Ike or Mewtwo. Both were considered terrible initially. A few fixes here and there, and they are generally considered much better (with Ike being a very viable choice now).

A Hoo Hah option could make Marth a bit better, it could give him a better throw combo game. This is something I feel Marth does need. A Hoo Hah option would be nice, but I would just settle for a better combo throw in general, as it wouldn't change too much of how Marth plays.

Also with regards to his throws, the only real one that need looking at are Fthrow and Dthrow. The knockback increases on Uthrow and Bthrow are only really buffs in my eyes. Uthrow kills now, and Bthrow is much better at giving Marth space, and very reliably puts the opponent in an off stage position. If they lowered the knockback and or knockback growth on his Fthrow and Dthrow slightly to allow them to get true combo follow ups (similar to Roy or Luigi's current Dthrow/ Roy's Fthrows) but not give you an OP throw kill combo (like pre patch Luigi Dthrow), Marth would have a great selection of throws at his disposal, and would arguably help fix one of his murky areas (combos).

I'm not saying that I don't want a Hoo Hah option. Heck, it would be fantastic, but in terms of balance, just better general combo throws would be nice.