What would change if Marth Tipper was easier to hit? (General Buff Discussion)

[Vipermoon]

In my experiences Fsmash only has hitboxes issues above Marth. Even so, not much. Oh and the animation shows that it hits behind Marth but that would be stupid and broken so yeah don't want hitboxes there lol (and I'm assuming that's frame 9).

 

[Xelion]

Nah, hitboxes in the back would be broken, I just meant the animation in the very front, I lost a game to a Sheik because I hit her with an Fsmash that clearly looked like a tipper, but was a sour spot instead, so I went back and watched it and it should have been a tipper, unless for some reason Sheik's hit box somehow clipped the sour spot, then I have no idea what happened. The hit was in the front too, so I would just like a bit more so the highlite behind the sword actually fits the tipper hitbox.

 

[Vipermoon]

That wasn't Marth's fault. Every character is this game has a different hurtbox and when those characters are doing things and moving around their hurtboxes change drastically. Your sour hitbox connected with Sheik before your tipper hitbox did. Happens all the time with all of Marth's moves. Look at Utilt, Ftilt, and Bair. And sometimes Nair, Uair. Usually it ends up being a tipper when it isn't supposed to rather than the other way around (especially on Ftilt and Bair). So there is a good side to this.

 

[Xelion]

Very true, I do connect random up airs that are tippered, so I guess you win some you lose some, let's just wait and see what happens with this next patch. I feel like they will change something with Marth even if it is minor. The main thing I'm hoping and praying for it a little less landing on aerials, especially Dair and Fair.

 

[Admiral_Dante]

Kind of excited for the next patch. As long as Marth keeps his jab. It really connected his entire game. If you're struggling with Marth right now, you're probably not making the most out of jab1. If they give him other frame data buffs on top of keeping his jab, I'll be a happy camper.

 

[Xelion]

Is it just me or do Marth's throws need major buffs, making all but up throw have low knockback like Roy's because as they are now, his throws are just terrible besides up throw as a kill throw. They already only do 4 and 5 DMG so why do much knockback while character like do 10 DMG which every throw and doing about the same knockback as Marth's. I don't know, it's just kinda bad, anyone else have anything to say about his grabs?

 

[Roy of Pharae]

Knockback on throws need to be reduced! I miss my f-throw f-throw tippered f-smash.

 

[Xelion]

Knockback on throws need to be reduced! I miss my f-throw f-throw tippered f-smash.

Yes please, the low damage of fine if they are combo throws.

 

[Vipermoon]

Fight Shield Shulk and you have Fthrow back. But I don't find myself wanting the old Fthrow. Edguarding is so good in this game that I need something to send opponents off-stage. A slightly lower angle (like Bthrow) would be nice.

 

[Admiral_Dante]

I wish landing DB tippers was easier. There are so many variables.

 

[SilverForUbers]

If they don't reduce the kb of his throws they should at least increase the damage or reduce the endlag on Marth's throw animations.

 

[Xelion]

Agreed, or maybe change two throws to combo throws, like F-Throw and D-Throw, then two long knockback throws, like U-Throw and B-Throw. I think that would be nice. However like Vipermoon64 said it is good for ledge guarding. But if they don't reduce knockback I would like a damage upgrade, but we will see, next patch should be August. Tournament mode and probably balancing, let's just wait and see if they heard us. Even ZeRo wanted Marth buffed the most out of all characters, even if you don't like him you gotta respect his opinion on those who need buffs. I bet out of all the people out there, they probably will listen to him out of all of us.

 

[radiantshadow92]

Personally i think buffing the range slightly on his sword would be much more impactful and better overall. increasing the damage or kb would be ridiculous imo its already powerful enough.

 

[Didier337]

Marth really needs a better neutral game.I believe Marth's sword/grab range is fine.The problems is the lack of follow ups after his throws and aerials.
-Throws KB prevents any further damage and make defensive plays against Marth more viable.
-Marth becoming a fast faller will allow punishing missed techs better,empty hops mind games,Special aerials become better against grounded opponents,

(?) Maybe make his D-tilt have set knock back.Give tippered the ability to jab lock to give a bigger punish for successful spacing. (?)

 

[Deleted member]

Marth really needs a better neutral game.I believe Marth's sword/grab range is fine.The problems is the lack of follow ups after his throws and aerials.
-Throws KB prevents any further damage and make defensive plays against Marth more viable.
-Marth becoming a fast faller will allow punishing missed techs better,empty hops mind games,Special aerials become better against grounded opponents,

(?) Maybe make his D-tilt have set knock back.Give tippered the ability to jab lock to give a bigger punish for successful spacing. (?)

The ability to jab lock is directly correlated to the knock back an attack deals, that is why it eventually becomes impossible to lock someone. (Please correct me if I am wrong on this.)

Also, the frame data of Marth's entire kit needs some tweaking in one fashion or another. Many of Marth's attacks just seem to be a tad slow, even for the new defensive play style Marth adopted in this game. He doesn't need any damage increases. He mostly needs his fair to end sooner so he can reliably set up into other aerials more consistently. His improved first hit of jab needs to end sooner so a SH fair just may become a true combo. (This with the aforementioned fair end lag buff can set up into even more follow ups. Now that would be a game changer in most cases.) His throws need a reality check as well, reduce the damage of down throw and lower the base knock back (and maybe growth a tad) along with giving it a more favorable knock back angle so he can set up into that delicious fair and also set up into the uair or nair. Up throw needs to have damage bumped up and (maybe) a knock back growth increase. Forward throw can use getting less knock back and a better angle to get the DI mix up and nab himself a free dash attack. There, no range increases or any thing that would utterly break Marth (that doesn't mean that I am against a grab range buff). I personally like his new play style more focused on zoning and such, but his slow kit of attacks doesn't get him very far with zoning. Maybe Marth, Lucina and Roy can get that quality of life change Falco got with his nair. If Their nair gets an auto link allowing to get both hits to be guaranteed to connect into one another sounds a bit scary. These changes can also be applied to Lucina since they are essentially the same character bar the fact that Lucina Likes the whole thing and Marth only prefers the tip. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


Seriously though, along with my proposes changes, Marth and Lucina need even more improvements to the landing lag of their aerials, less endlag on his down throw, and (maybe) improvements on the hitboxes to better match sword trails. Simple as that.

 

[Didier337]

Seriously though, along with my proposes changes, Marth and Lucina need even more improvements to the landing lag of their aerials, less endlag on his down throw, and (maybe) improvements on the hitboxes to better match sword trails. Simple as that.

Better frame data is good,let's hope Nintendo will continue to improve the meta game with balance patches,preferably buffing characters to being more viable.

 

[FallenHero]

Nothing would be different for us who use Marth, but all the Lucina mains would play Marth instead.

 

[APlainOldBanana]

But if I had to say a change would occur then spiking would be easier.

This. I have no clue why they felt the need to nerf that hitbox.

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

Nothing would be different for us who use Marth, but all the Lucina mains would play Marth instead.

Except the "but muh waifu" ones. You know what I mean.

Btw, I think the tipper is cool now. I just wish the meteor was easier. Takes a Maths degree to calcule the angle for spiking, same as Pit.

 

[EtrianHero23]

Honestly, as previously mentioned, I would just like to see Marth's throws buffed. It's not fun when your throws either suck at killing, or don't lead to a combo(unless at lower percentages.) At higher percentages, getting a throw leads to nowhere, and Marth isn't exactly the greatest at following others in the air.

Either that, or bring back the Ken combo.

 

[APlainOldBanana]

Honestly, as previously mentioned, I would just like to see Marth's throws buffed. It's not fun when your throws either suck at killing, or don't lead to a combo(unless at lower percentages.) At higher percentages, getting a throw leads to nowhere, and Marth isn't exactly the greatest at following others in the air.

Either that, or bring back the Ken combo.

This. Marth's/Lucina's Fthrow seems like they could get a a followup at mid %s, but the opponent is able to act before Marth/Lucina can get an attack on said opponent. There are a lot of buffs that their throws need. Uthrow definitetly should kill earlier, Dthrow should be a better combo throw, and Marth/Lucina should be able to act a little faster out of Fthrow so they can get followups.

 

[SilverForUbers]

I honestly find using Marth's grab release at higher percentages is overall better than using his throws unless you want to get your opponent offstage. As I get more off of grab release (Jab > Fsmash, Ftilt, Dtilt, etc) than a throw if they aren't expecting it(the more you use it the more obvious it becomes). Also, spamming pummel adds a lot more percentage than just using pummel twice and then throwing.

 

[EtrianHero23]

I honestly find using Marth's grab release at higher percentages is overall better than using his throws unless you want to get your opponent offstage. As I get more off of grab release (Jab > Fsmash, Ftilt, Dtilt, etc) than a throw if they aren't expecting it(the more you use it the more obvious it becomes). Also, spamming pummel adds a lot more percentage than just using pummel twice and then throwing.

I never thought about using his grab release like that. I should try it out when I have a chance.

Still doesn't mean that his grab game is good though.

 

[Vipermoon]

Btw I never saw use in Jab to Dtilt. Jab1 to Jab1 covers that in much much better way.

 

[SilverForUbers]

Btw I never saw use in Jab to Dtilt. Jab1 to Jab1 covers that in much much better way.

Depends on the part of the stage you're on, honestly. Due to tipper dtilts angle, if you're near the edge of the stage it seems to be more rewarding as it sets up an easier gimp/trap scenario.

 

[Vipermoon]

Okay I can agree with that. Against a fast faller hanging over the edge, Dtilt is the optimal choice after jab (unless it's a high enough percent for sour Fsmash to kill).

 

[AkumaKing]

I feel like, for Marth, he would be better if...
1. More knockback on up-throw. Enough to kill at maybe 130 or 140, not freaking 170. It would be really helpful to have a kill throw.
2. Less knockback on his other throws for easier combos. It's not like he has a chance to kill with these, so they might as well be easier to combo with.
3. Less ending/landing lag on his aerials so he can be safer and easier to combo with. He not only should have an easier time comboing, but some matchups where he's outranged he might need the extra edge so he's still a force to be reckoned with.

I'm usually pretty off with balancing, but I feel pretty confident he'd be much better if these changes were made. Not that anyone important is reading this who can make said changes. xD If you disagree with me, w/e. It's just my opinions.

 

[FallenHero]

I feel like, for Marth, he would be better if...
1. More knockback on up-throw. Enough to kill at maybe 130 or 140, not freaking 170. It would be really helpful to have a kill throw.
2. Less knockback on his other throws for easier combos. It's not like he has a chance to kill with these, so they might as well be easier to combo with.
3. Less ending/landing lag on his aerials so he can be safer and easier to combo with. He not only should have an easier time comboing, but some matchups where he's outranged he might need the extra edge so he's still a force to be reckoned with.

I'm usually pretty off with balancing, but I feel pretty confident he'd be much better if these changes were made. Not that anyone important is reading this who can make said changes. xD If you disagree with me, w/e. It's just my opinions.

I don't really agree with 3, but the others I can definitely agree with the other two. Maybe give his aerials a little bit less lag, but not too much. I think Lucina's fair should get better frame data than Marth's so that she isn't so unsafe on shield, but keep the damage and knock back the same so it isn't just entirely better or worse than Marth's.

 

[Vipermoon]

That would make Lucina players spam Fair depending on what changed/by how much. It's unhealthy. Lucina doesn't need anything except for the option to wear the mask permanently.

And while I mentioned that, I WANT MARTH'S COUNTER QUOTES BACK!!!! It's a Japanese (or non-english?) market thing only in Smash 4.

 

[AkumaKing]

I only think his aerials should be increased by a little as well, I'm not asking for them to be lagless. Just safer, and easier to combo with. I don't know what to think of Lucina since I never extensively played as her. (despite my prof pic being of her, lol)

 

[FallenHero]

That would make Lucina players spam Fair depending on what changed/by how much. It's unhealthy. Lucina doesn't need anything except for the option to wear the mask permanently.

And while I mentioned that, I WANT MARTH'S COUNTER QUOTES BACK!!!! It's a Japanese (or non-english?) market thing only in Smash 4.

Maybe your right. What I really want is for Marth to get his unused "let's dance" voice clip from Melee. Use that for down taunt and put the current down taunt voice clip for up taunt or something. I am not the biggest anime fan, but I love when Japenese people speak Engrish. Hideo Kojima: " Did you rike it?"

 

[Vipermoon]

Maybe your right. What I really want is for Marth to get his unused "let's dance" voice clip from Melee. Use that for down taunt and put the current down taunt voice clip for up taunt or something. I am not the biggest anime fan, but I love when Japenese people speak Engrish. Hideo Kojima: " Did you rike it?"

That would be awesome! Except NEVER replace down taunt. Add it to maybe side taunt OR even better: have it randomly (rarely) play in the beginning of dancing blade (cuz you know...dancing) and then mute voice for strikes 2 and 3 and play 4's.

 

[kesterstudios]

ignore this

 

[SM_Marth]

If I had to say bring back the shield breaker Marth had in melee. This way his punish game will be stronger and it will cover more range. It would also make Lucina a -somewhat- semi clone. Lag is the main problem on Marth and without anyway to speed up landing lag besides the equipment smooth lander it just hurts Marth. Unless somehow certain equipment gets added at tournaments Marth will just stay mid tier. He has a somewhat chain grab with his up throw as long as you are quick enough to get the opponent before they land and make sure you know which way they are going.

 

[ixos]

His tipper just needs to be a tiny bit bigger, not much though. Honestly, I think it's fine now, but in lag it's pretty dang hard to hit it. The only thing really I want to be buffed with Marth is his grab. When they removed chain grabbing they removed one of Marth's best aspects. They at least need to buff the damage of his throws or make them easier to follow up with.

 

[Curleh_Mustache]

They need to do something about his dash attack.

 

[Didier337]

They need to do something about his dash attack.

He does have some strange hit registrations when the opponent is inside of marth.Maybe they'll fix the hitbox of his jab too

 

[ShiroSSB]

Hey, Roy's sweetspot is easy to land. Why not Marth's? Personally I think he'll jump a few tiers.

 

[AkumaKing]

Hey, Roy's sweetspot is easy to land. Why not Marth's? Personally I think he'll jump a few tiers.

Fsmash kills at 51% with tipper and uncharged (tested on WFT), do you really want something like that to be easy to hit? They could increase the hitbox size a little if anything, but if they make it too easy to hit with we'll become over powered as heck.

 

[kesterstudios]

i guess a bigger tipper hitboxes would be good, but I would only increase the size very slightly. we'll see in tommorows patch if there is one.