What would change if Marth Tipper was easier to hit? (General Buff Discussion)

[Kil3r]

Check out the latest post to see which buff ideas are being discussed .

Side note: The goal here is to discuss buffs that would help give Marth more even matchups and put him into being just as good BUT not better than top tier characters.
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First post in thread:
Let's say the tipper hitbox increased by 5-10% how much better would he be\what tier would he be given by most players?

IMO for him to make top tier he needs that, less cooldown on fairs, and buffs to dair lag\dsmash in general. Maybe even a very small range buff.

I don't main Marth but I started playing him a nice bit more(because of Roy release) and I feel like he is missing options due to some meh moves and features. My main Falco got some serious buffs and I feel that alot of other characters deserve\will eventually receive the same treatment.

EDIT: I currently do not agree with the above idea. It sparked some discussion and for that I am happy .
-----------------------------
Some other topics that were talked about(These summaries can still be changed):
1. Damage and\or knockback buff to dsmash hit 2. Make dsmash hit 2 have more kill potential than fsmash due to being a much harder read (very risky) move. Quite literally every other option Marth has is better dsmash 2(when compairing endlag, framedata, damage, and knockback). Giving dsmash 2 this buff would let it have a unique but useful spot in Marth's moveset without overriding his other options. (This idea had positive reactions I think)

2. Fair speed buff. Bring back short hop double fair. This will add in other options to Marth SH (fair > uair for example). His fair will have to be respected a nice bit more. Finally, he will be able to combo fair>fair much more consistently(during punishes for example). Improving fair like this, in theory, is the key to helping marth deal with top tiers(of course without being OP). It will also not change Marth in a way that doesn't fit his playstyle\character design. (This idea had positive reactions I think)

 

[Pugwest]

Nothing would change since our Pro/Top tier players always space extremely well and only land tippers anyway.

But if I had to say a change would occur then spiking would be easier.

 

[Kil3r]

Nothing would change since our Pro/Top tier players always space extremely well and only land tippers anyway.

Got any videos of this? I'm trying to get better at Marth and improve my spacing. I personally haven't seen much of this but perhaps tippers aren't as strong as they should be then? I would say that might be the case on attacks other than Marth's F-Smash.

Also, what do you think those other changes I mentioned would affect?

 

[CURRY]

What if Marth tipper was easier to hit?
HE WOULD BE LUCINA (☞ﾟ∀ﾟ)☞

ok uhh
I mean, we're already playing the best as we can and trying to space well and land tippers. We would probably just land more tippers and maybe rise up a spot.
I remember EL saying that for Marth to be better, he just needs to have fair, DB or jab improved. We got a nice jab and a proper DB now, yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

How to improve spacing?
I'm lazy, here's a Brawl thing:
http://smashboards.com/threads/making-the-most-of-training-mode-text-vids.242138/
Some of the videos don't work anymore, and I have really crappy internet and don't want to check, sorry about making this comment in a rush x.x

 

[Langston777]

if you don't feel the sensation of ecstasy every time you land a sweet tipper then marth aint for you

marth mains can hear, see, and feel a tipper a mile away on any move

CRISPY TIPS

 

[Darklink401]

Nothing would change since our Pro/Top tier players always space extremely well and only land tippers anyway.

But if I had to say a change would occur then spiking would be easier.

It wouldn't be, as spiking would still occur only of frame 11, doesnt necessarily have to be right under Marth.

 

[Kil3r]

if you don't feel the sensation of ecstasy every time you land a sweet tipper then marth aint for you

marth mains can hear, see, and feel a tipper a mile away on any move

CRISPY TIPS

So I come back to this thread with a quite a few more hours of Marth experience. I gotta say I can feel what you are saying here a nice bit more.

What if Marth tipper was easier to hit?
HE WOULD BE LUCINA (☞ﾟ∀ﾟ)☞

ok uhh
I mean, we're already playing the best as we can and trying to space well and land tippers. We would probably just land more tippers and maybe rise up a spot.
I remember EL saying that for Marth to be better, he just needs to have fair, DB or jab improved. We got a nice jab and a proper DB now, yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

How to improve spacing?
I'm lazy, here's a Brawl thing:
http://smashboards.com/threads/making-the-most-of-training-mode-text-vids.242138/
Some of the videos don't work anymore, and I have really crappy internet and don't want to check, sorry about making this comment in a rush x.x

What changed with DB?

Something I noticed with more experience is that FOR ME Marth really loses many viable options against match ups that have heavy projectiles or very fast characters(against fast characters, everything Marth has becomes unsafe in my experience).

A buff to his tipper hitbox(or maybe just a slight range buff to his sword hit box) may help make the risk of his moves less exploitable by these characters... BUT there are other potential changes to solve this problem AND it may just be my skill with Marth\matchup knowledge which is the problem. Still something to think about.

Personally, I want him to be like Sheik when it comes to building damage (2 fairs into followup attempt). It would be really reminiscent of the previous iterations of Marth which felt very smooth to play and watch for me. Other things may have to change if they give him something like this though :|.

FOR SURE the thing that has to happen is a D-Smash change. Is there anything good about this move? Do I just suck at using it?

 

[Darklink401]

So I come back to this thread with a quite a few more hours of Marth experience. I gotta say I can feel what you are saying here a nice bit more.


What changed with DB?

Something I noticed with more experience is that FOR ME Marth really loses many viable options against match ups that have heavy projectiles or very fast characters(against fast characters, everything Marth has becomes unsafe in my experience).

A buff to his tipper hitbox(or maybe just a slight range buff to his sword hit box) may help make the risk of his moves less exploitable by these characters... BUT there are other potential changes to solve this problem AND it may just be my skill with Marth\matchup knowledge which is the problem. Still something to think about.

Personally, I want him to be like Sheik when it comes to building damage (2 fairs into followup attempt). It would be really reminiscent of the previous iterations of Marth which felt very smooth to play and watch for me. Other things may have to change if they give him something like this though :|.

FOR SURE the thing that has to happen is a D-Smash change. Is there anything good about this move? Do I just suck at using it?

What would fix Marth would be making his fair be faster. If he had a fair that was safe to approach, zone and attack with, he could deal with top tiers.

Also, DB now connects better after the 1.0.6 patch

 

[Kil3r]

What would fix Marth would be making his fair be faster. If he had a fair that was safe to approach, zone and attack with, he could deal with top tiers.

Also, DB now connects better after the 1.0.6 patch

Ah ok that's good they buffed that. Also I think you are right on the fair buff, I would personally love to see that happen.

As for the tipper hitbox buff nvm for now. It's probably not going to be that big of a help but I will still keep it on the sidelines of my thoughts for now.

I still think d-smash buff is pretty necessary.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Marth
The frame data on it is not that great AFAICT. You are potentially open for 49 frames(when you dsmash towards foe hit 2 of dsmash pretty much counts as extra endlag) in comparison to f-smash's 39 frames of end lag. I think end lag on d-smash really needs a huge buff here. Also, i'm pretty sure Roy has the same problem.
I can't exactly see it being useful vs his other options. What do you guys think is the intended purpose of this move?(hopefully not just filler)

 

[Admiral_Dante]

Ah ok that's good they buffed that. Also I think you are right on the fair buff, I would personally love to see that happen.

As for the tipper hitbox buff nvm for now. It's probably not going to be that big of a help but I will still keep it on the sidelines of my thoughts for now.

I still think d-smash buff is pretty necessary.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Marth
The frame data on it is not that great AFAICT. You are potentially open for 49 frames(when you dsmash towards foe hit 2 of dsmash pretty much counts as extra endlag) in comparison to f-smash's 39 frames of end lag. I think end lag on d-smash really needs a huge buff here. Also, i'm pretty sure Roy has the same problem.
I can't exactly see it being useful vs his other options. What do you guys think is the intended purpose of this move?(hopefully not just filler)

For me, dsmash's main use is it's quick start up. I usually use it to try and catch landing lag frames or tight punishes, and if i'm too slow i may get a hit if they decided to roll behind me. Quick startup, decent power when tipped. I just have to hope they don't shield or spot dodge it if I was too late with it...

 

[Langston777]

if i use dsmash it was an accident

it's filler

 

[Kil3r]

For me, dsmash's main use is it's quick start up. I usually use it to try and catch landing lag frames or tight punishes, and if i'm too slow i may get a hit if they decided to roll behind me. Quick startup, decent power when tipped. I just have to hope they don't shield or spot dodge it if I was too late with it...

I also feel that this was the intended purpose. Sacrifice the kill potential and vertical hitbox of the fsmash for faster startup and utility for roll punish.

The main problem is that there is so much more risk than the fsmash. I believe Villagers dsmash is similar but with MUCH less end lag(even when counting the frames for the second hit as endlag).

Also, in my experience, for a nice bit of characters the second hit doesn't connect when punishing their roll behind you.

Anyways, what do you think about endlag buff on dsmash(for Roy, Lucina, and Marth)? Assuming they all have the same issue with it.

if i use dsmash it was an accident

it's filler

LOL This pretty much is the same for me. It's an easy punish on me whenever I do it. However, I don't know if it's filler; it seems to have some thought put into it.

 

[Darklink401]

I also feel that this was the intended purpose. Sacrifice the kill potential and vertical hitbox of the fsmash for faster startup and utility for roll punish.

The main problem is that there is so much more risk than the fsmash. I believe Villagers dsmash is similar but with MUCH less end lag(even when counting the frames for the second hit as endlag).

Also, in my experience, for a nice bit of characters the second hit doesn't connect when punishing their roll behind you.

Anyways, what do you think about endlag buff on dsmash(for Roy, Lucina, and Marth)? Assuming they all have the same issue with it.


LOL This pretty much is the same for me. It's an easy punish on me whenever I do it. However, I don't know if it's filler; it seems to have some thought put into it.

For when you spotdodge or shield an attack and go for punishes, I find it better to use dsmash, because fsmash will never tipper from that close, tho dsmash will sometimes, and upsmash...might whiff, depending on opponent's distance.

Dsmash has its uses...

Also hits on both sides, so there's that, can cover rolls.

 

[Admiral_Dante]

At first, I thought it was useless to, but the quick startup makes for good punishes at closer ranges. I almost always connect when I use dsmash because i try to connect in guaranteed punish situations when I only have a few frames to do things.

 

[Kil3r]

Thanks for giving me that info, i'll certainly be looking out for those situations to use dsmash.

Tell me if this makes sense for why I feel dsmash isn't that great:
1. Non-tippered dsmash(1st hit) sends your foe not too far(in comparison to fsmash) and has more vertical knockback. Against fast\fastfall characters, I'd say this may just put you in a bad situation if they are pressuring.
Potential buff a. Change to the knockback angle.
Potential buff b. Reduce endlag (perhaps even enough for followups )
Potential buff c. Both
2. Risk vs reward. Dsmash vs fsmash.
Fsmash both alleviates pressure better and does more damage than dsmash. Also, fsmash has less endlag making it less of a risk. All of that combined makes dsmash even more situational.

 

[Admiral_Dante]

L

Thanks for giving me that info, i'll certainly be looking out for those situations to use dsmash.

Tell me if this makes sense for why I feel dsmash isn't that great:
1. Non-tippered dsmash(1st hit) sends your foe not too far(in comparison to fsmash) and has more vertical knockback. Against fast\fastfall characters, I'd say this may just put you in a bad situation if they are pressuring.
Potential buff a. Change to the knockback angle.
Potential buff b. Reduce endlag (perhaps even enough for followups )
Potential buff c. Both
2. Risk vs reward. Dsmash vs fsmash.
Fsmash both alleviates pressure better and does more damage than dsmash. Also, fsmash has less endlag making it less of a risk. All of that combined makes dsmash even more situational.

dsmash's main and really only benefit that matters is the faster startup. dsmash starts up in 6 frames, while fsmash is 10, and usmash is 13. so for 4 frames faster than fsmash, you sacrifice a little knockback and take on more risk during the cooldown.

 

[A_Kae]

L


dsmash's main and really only benefit that matters is the faster startup. dsmash starts up in 6 frames, while fsmash is 10, and usmash is 13. so for 4 frames faster than fsmash, you sacrifice a little knockback and take on more risk during the cooldown.

Something important to remember about f-smash, (and a lot of marth's attacks in general) is the movement of the hitbox. F-smash starts hitting on frame 10, but usually you will be hitting on frame 12-13, due to the movement.

Also, jab is probably better than d-smash in most situations, it hits 1 frame earlier, doesn't do much less damage, (3/5 + 4/6 vs 8/12) and is much safer if you miss or if the attack is shielded, though that's not worth much, since if you hit a shield you're getting hit either way.

 

[Admiral_Dante]

Something important to remember about f-smash, (and a lot of marth's attacks in general) is the movement of the hitbox. F-smash starts hitting on frame 10, but usually you will be hitting on frame 12-13, due to the movement.

Also, jab is probably better than d-smash in most situations, it hits 1 frame earlier, doesn't do much less damage, (3/5 + 4/6 vs 8/12) and is much safer if you miss or if the attack is shielded, though that's not worth much, since if you hit a shield you're getting hit either way.

Actually with the jab buffs, jab is definitely the better option now... you have potential combos and setups and the risk is minimal, esp. compared to using the dsmash. I'll probably stop using dsmash unless they're at a high percent and it'll kill, or I'm making yolo hard reads.

 

[A_Kae]

Actually with the jab buffs, jab is definitely the better option now... you have potential combos and setups and the risk is minimal, esp. compared to using the dsmash. I'll probably stop using dsmash unless they're at a high percent and it'll kill, or I'm making yolo hard reads.

I do agree that jab is the better option. What I meant by 'jab is probably better than d-smash in most situations' I was just thinking of maybe d-smash being slightly better at shield poking. Jab is just better in 99% of scenarios.

 

[Alses]

I just started using Marth this week to ditto a friend online and ended up using him quite well. (Tippers feel so satisfying *_*... well except for the behind F-Smash tipper which is never intentional) It's easy enough, heck, if you use shield breaker really well you can stun them long enough to charge a full tipper F-smash and one shot various characters.

 

[Kil3r]

I do agree that jab is the better option. What I meant by 'jab is probably better than d-smash in most situations' I was just thinking of maybe d-smash being slightly better at shield poking. Jab is just better in 99% of scenarios.

Exactly.

I think if dsmash endlag was buffed, it would become an actual tool that could fill in the spot between a jab and fsmash. Dsmash would have the utility of roll punish while jab has jab cancel. Furthermore, dsmash's hitbox covers different areas than jab, AFAICT(please correct me if i'm wrong) dsmash would more constantly hit characters who are smaller, closer, and\or in a crouching like animation. This would be a very nice option to have.

As of right now, dsmash is just too risky of a choice. You might as well go for a fsmash, ftilt, or jab(most likely jab).

 

[Admiral_Dante]

Exactly.

I think if dsmash endlag was buffed, it would become an actual tool that could fill in the spot between a jab and fsmash. Dsmash would have the utility of roll punish while jab has jab cancel. Furthermore, dsmash's hitbox covers different areas than jab, AFAICT(please correct me if i'm wrong) dsmash would more constantly hit characters who are smaller, closer, and\or in a crouching like animation. This would be a very nice option to have.

As of right now, dsmash is just too risky of a choice. You might as well go for a fsmash, ftilt, or jab(most likely jab).

I still think this is a little off. While I agree that dsmash's recovery frames are hideous, it's hard to justify the need to buff it. Marth has other tools that basically fill any role dsmash would play if it was buffed (roll reads, shield poking, etc.), while it already serves as a quick moderate punish.

The recovery frames force us to use the quick start up frames of dsmash's first hit in matches for true punish situations. Granted, this makes the increased damage and knockback properties of the second hit virtually useless, unless you're feeling 1 part psychic and 2 parts yolo... Actually, if I were a buff to this move, I would buff the 2nd hit to be even stronger so the hard roll reads would truly be worth it to go for. I'd probably make it stronger than an fsmash, rather than reduce recovery frames.

 

[A_Kae]

Exactly.

I think if dsmash endlag was buffed, it would become an actual tool that could fill in the spot between a jab and fsmash. Dsmash would have the utility of roll punish while jab has jab cancel. Furthermore, dsmash's hitbox covers different areas than jab, AFAICT(please correct me if i'm wrong) dsmash would more constantly hit characters who are smaller, closer, and\or in a crouching like animation. This would be a very nice option to have.

As of right now, dsmash is just too risky of a choice. You might as well go for a fsmash, ftilt, or jab(most likely jab).

D-smash doesn't cover areas much lower than jab does. Aside from hitting very low crouches or after a missed tech, jab covers most of the same areas that d-smash hits. Still, in the few cases where jab won't hit and d-smash will, it's good to know that you do have a way of hitting that low.

As for making d-smash not terrible, the ending lag doesn't need to be changed as much as the damage. The first hit does 8/12 and the second hit 12/17. 10/14 and 14/19, (or something like that) I think would be better than reducing the ending lag. Lowering the ending lag significantly enough to matter wouldn't help much since marth has other moves that fill the role that a faster d-smash would. Increasing the damage would allow for it to be much better as a quick, but risky punish move.

Those are just my thoughts on the matter.

Edit: Also, on the subject of other buffs, all of marth's aerials I feel need some improvements.

Edit 2: After some testing, I found that d-smash actually has slightly more horizontal range that jab 1 does. It's not much more, jab 1 just barely misses at d-smashes max range, but it is there. Also, jab 1 misses low targets at close range. (tested on a crouching marth).

After that, I do have a higher opinion of d-smash now. It still needs some changes to make it 'good' but it's less terrible than I thought.

 

[Kil3r]

I agree with the idea of buffing the damage and\or knockback. This seems to be the best option. I also think that Roy, Lucina, and MAYBE even Ike might be able to use a similar buff too.

Thanks for testing that A_Kae. The fact that dsmash does cover a different area than jab means it has its use(atleast hit 1 does). Of course, this is fairly situational but it is an option to keep in mind.

Pretty much anything is better than dsmash as a hard read roll punish. It doesn't compete with Marth's other moves in terms of risk, damage, or kill potential. Give dsmash(hit 2) kill potential and\or damage so the move will have it's own useful purpose in Marth's moveset without overshadowing other options.

 

[A_Kae]

I agree with the idea of buffing the damage and\or knockback. This seems to be the best option. I also think that Roy, Lucina, and MAYBE even Ike might be able to use a similar buff too.

Thanks for testing that A_Kae. The fact that dsmash does cover a different area than jab means it has its use(atleast hit 1 does). Of course, this is fairly situational but it is an option to keep in mind.

Pretty much anything is better than dsmash as a hard read roll punish. It doesn't compete with Marth's other moves in terms of risk, damage, or kill potential. Give dsmash(hit 2) kill potential and\or damage so the move will have a purpose that is unique but fitting in Marth's(and other FE characters) moveset.

Knockback increases with damage, so the change I proposed would give higher knockback.

Also, because of the clone status, these apply to Lucina as well. Roy and Ike I don't feel need better d-smashes as much as Marth and Lucina do.

I'd like to point out that d-smashes coverage isn't very different from jab 1. The difference in range is very small, and situations where d-smashe hitting low near Marth isn't useful very often. Of course, the differing coverage is something to be aware of, since it could be very useful in a match.

 

[kj22]

if you don't feel the sensation of ecstasy every time you land a sweet tipper then marth aint for you

marth mains can hear, see, and feel a tipper a mile away on any move

CRISPY TIPS

lmao this so much. I instinctively know when I'm in tipper range for something and my "tipper senses" start tingling ;D

 

[Langston777]

I was more or less talking about noticing hitlag or knockback from tippered moves,

One thing i learned from playing a bit of Lucina now and then is how Marth's sweet and soutspots offer different frame advantages and positioning for Marth to follow up on for pressure, which is pretty cool. even moreso than stronger attacks, i think it's what makes lucina rather difficult to play after playing the hero king for so long. Lucina is a rather unsatisfying character to play, albeit cute

 

[Admiral_Dante]

I was never really a fan of Lucina... Marth without the delicious, crispy tips? Pass.

 

[Honor]

Do we feel there is ANY chance that Marth will get his long sword back? I highly doubt it but I keep dreaming

 

[9029]

I'd say if tippers were easier to hit, there'd probably a slight nerf to the percentage. Tippers don't really need a buff though. I'd like to have Marth's double SH Fair back.

I was never really a fan of Lucina... Marth without the delicious, crispy tips? Pass.

As the joke goes, "I'm not sure how I feel about this female Marth game..."

 

[Malcolm Pickering]

i think he wouldn't be a better character, just a cheaper character

 

[Vipermoon]

You guys keep asking for SH double Fair but SH Fair to Uair or 1st hit of Nair is far more important as a combo starter.

 

[A_Kae]

You guys keep asking for SH double Fair but SH Fair to Uair or 1st hit of Nair is far more important as a combo starter.

Yeah, I just don't get why SH double fair is so important to some people. It's got a massive hole in between the strikes, and doesn't get you much at all.

Like you I'd much rather have SH fair > uair/nair. That would be a legit game changer, not fair > fair in a short hop.

Still, if short hop double fair was a thing, it would mean that you could uair or nair after the fair as well.

 

[Kil3r]

Those SH options(other than fair > fair) if SH double fair was added would be really nice.

I think it's also about fair being faster in general(not just for SH attacks). Fair seems to get out prioritized, out ranged, or something in my experience. Being able to follow up fair into fair(during edge guards, successful anti-aerial spacing, other various reads) more consistently would be a generally helpful addition.

I believe that Marth Fair is something you should have to respect(in the air mainly). Just like Rosaluma Uair.

EDIT: I added some summaries to OP. Tell me what you think. Don't worry they can be changed even if the ideas get completely shot down. Give me some suggestions for changes if needed!

 

[Xelion]

Is it just me or is the tipper a little inconsistent due to how small the hitbox is? I know the spacing and sometimes, due to idle animations or broken shield animations, it ends up being a regular hit and not the tip. I wish they would make it a bit bigger down the sword, they could maybe even expand the hitbox out a bit...
wink wink nudge nudge.

 

[Admiral_Dante]

Is it just me or is the tipper a little inconsistent due to how small the hitbox is? I know the spacing and sometimes, due to idle animations or broken shield animations, it ends up being a regular hit and not the tip. I wish they would make it a bit bigger down the sword, they could maybe even expand the hitbox out a bit...
wink wink nudge nudge.

Yeah the tipper hitboxes don't match most of Marth's animations and on top of that other characters' hurtboxes can vary pretty drastically from where they should be compared to what is visually on the screen. Playing Marth in a game where the hitboxes and hurtboxes actually match the animations has been a dream of mine for quite some time now. But I suppose a little tipper hitbox expansion would be a good start.

 

[Zio~]

the only thing I think that needs buffs is Marth's frame data, other than that he seems like a pretty solid character.

 

[Xelion]

the only thing I think that needs buffs is Marth's frame data, other than that he seems like a pretty solid character.

Like I said, the tipper hitbox on F-Smash especially is super small so that's the only thing I would like to be changed.

 

[Vipermoon]

Um no, people would complain about Marth's then-broken tipper Fsmash like they do about Roy's stupid Fsmash

The only thing Marth's Fsmash needs to do is match the animation on a battlefield platform. It goes through their feet but on some characters it will never ever hit

 

[Xelion]

Um no, people would complain about Marth's then-broken tipper Fsmash like they do about Roy's stupid Fsmash

The only thing Marth's Fsmash needs to do is match the animation on a battlefield platform. It goes through their feet but on some characters it will never ever hit

I didn't mean I wanted it like Roy's, I meant it is a little inconsistent like you were saying with the platforms, and sometimes I feel like the animation doesn't fit with the actual range of the tip. It could just be me though.