what to do when marth DIs to the platform and techs.

[knightpraetor]

Just want some advice on good techchase options..the only one i have success with is wavelanding..and that takes so much work. I dislike things that i may miss due to bad technical skills.

However, if marth is at CC percentage it is dangerous to fair him...i think falling upair is an optioN?

but if you do that, don't they fall down since they were CCing? so i need to falling upair and then jab, then chase?

also, i have heard time and time again to needle camp vs marth..But what are my options to escape the edge when i run out of room? basically marth's ground game is dangerous but not impossible..it's hard at low percents when they can cc, but at the same time, you can still grab.

However if they use an air game at low %, you still can't Dash attack since they can CC as they come down...also, running forward into shield won't place you close to grab.

Rolling behind them if you can time it at a good time as well as spotdodging both work well.

However, those aren't guarantees and I wonder whether it is worth risking spam since they can be baited by a good marth.

Instead, i usually retreat and needle and force them to approach where i can get the grab (which is what i'm going for 90% of the time until they hit high % where you can dash attack and cut in after their falling aerial and before a dtilt can get out)

Anyways, i just find this troublesome..particularly on Marth Story

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Platform dashing isn't hard and you really should learn it 'cause it's good for just normal gameplay too. Fairs through the platform work, or you can run under them and usmash.

I don't get it... you can't crouch cancel in the air... dash attack away.

The point of camping isn't to just rack up damage, it's to make your opponent come to you. You shouldn't be retreating towards the edge while needle canceling.

 

[Celph]

Just want some advice on good techchase options..the only one i have success with is wavelanding..and that takes so much work. I dislike things that i may miss due to bad technical skills.

Waveland on the platform and regrab. Really easy. Fair/nair when appropriate. Stop johning.

also, i have heard time and time again to needle camp vs marth..But what are my options to escape the edge when i run out of room? basically marth's ground game is dangerous but not impossible..it's hard at low percents when they can cc, but at the same time, you can still grab.

Yeah, what elven said: just needle camp so they approach 100% of the time. You should still remain somewhat in the middle of the stage, because once Marth gets a grab on you and controls the stage, you're gonna get tech chased to death and it's just a bad situation to be. Don't trap yourself and make it easier on him. Needle camp and then fox trot away or sh or w/e when he starts approaching, because Sheik eats through Marth's approaches easily.

Rolling behind them

stop this

as well as spotdodging

as well as this

You're asking to get pivot tippered or grabbed.

PS always ban yoshi story v marth

 

[soap]

drephen used to always do the dair, but even he upgraded to waveland grab.

If he can do it, so can u.

 

[NJzFinest]

At higher %, try just wavelanding to tilt.

 

[knightpraetor]

lol, k..dair is the other option..i forgot about that

and yeah elven, I know that I should try to cut through him while he's in the air, but that's not guaranteed or anything if the marth is camping and reverse aerialling at least half the time, you will miss occasionally, that's the whole point of the needles.

And I think you're right, i give up ground too easily when i'm needling. I sometimes get caught up in the needle damage and don't just focus on punishing their approach.

and I get CCed if i dash attack late, while if you dash attack early you may get hit by the fair. I mean, the marth is going to try to cover his fall with a fair. Am i correct in remembering that you can punch through the fair? or should I stick to running in and grab afterwards?

if i remember correctly if you're close enough that your dash attack is going under the marth before he lands, then it works ok and probably won't get faired..from max dash attack range the fair hits you and halts your movement...i think

also, i can platform dash of course..i mean, who can't in this day and age...but i have missed before as well. I generally take safe options over ones that may mess up unless i feel "on" that day. I mean, there's a reason i don't try shine infinites in matches against peach..i never even go for 2 iterations, i just put them in the air and start comboing.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I think your view of priority is... different... in that you can't ever really "punch through" aerial attacks.

Also, shine infinites can be SDI'd.

 

[soap]

peach/link never goes far enough even with smash DI

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Why do people think I'm always just making stuff up?

 

[Drephen]

drephen used to always do the dair, but even he upgraded to waveland grab.

If he can do it, so can u.

yeah i stole that **** from forward

its really a good idea at low percents to chase them onto the platform and grab again

however downair is more reliable at higher percents

 

[knightpraetor]

so what did you mean then? if they get low enough will fair always beat out dash attack? do you bother trying to dash attack before the fair or only try to tag them as they land?

also, if you dash attack through the marth, can they dair out of shield before your shield gets up?

and drephen, do you have a guide on this matchup? I'm going to go search for some guides

 

[KirbyKaze]

first page of sheik q&a

 

[ArcNatural]

Why do people think I'm always just making stuff up?

I think your missing the point. Yes, it can be smash DI'd, but even with the additional length gained from the smash DI, Peach still can not get out of a pure waveshine. Although it is obviously much harder to keep waveshining when they can do this. I'm pretty sure this has been tested. A perfect waveshine still reaches a smash DIing Peach provided that the only thing they do is waveshine. If they try to drillshine it's easy to escape since you can smash DI the drill before the shine.

 

[knightpraetor]

yes i read that..and i think i've read most of the useful advice on the matchup in the forums now..not much talk on when to hit with dash attack though...

it seems to be my biggest issue. Doing it before they land if they have good spacing gets your faired, waiting till afterward works best, but a lot of marths insert dtilt, which also deals with grabs quite well.

Basically, it seems i can run in and shield grab/CC aerials if they do them early, or if the fair hits low on my shield, i can wavedash out or JC upsmash if they intend to spotdodge/ run through.

however, do i have any options to punish a perfectly spaced fair into a spaced dtilt? if not, i am just going to wd back and reset everytime i fail to get inside the fairs range.

What place if any does spotdodge have in this matchup? jabbing seems better in most cases if they are dashdancing..so i guess i just use it when i'm trapped in shield and have no other recourse?

 

[MaritLage227]

when marth does anything that owns a sheik, what do you do?...cry...

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Did you watch the clip? The second one? Where she like SDI's across like half the entire stage? Crazy! You can't follow that!

And knightpraetor, why don't you try jumping out of shield and needling to dash attack for the punish? Or just needle to dash attack in general?

 

[Ryan-K]

Did you watch the clip? The second one? Where she like SDI's across like half the entire stage? Crazy! You can't follow that!

yes you can, ive seen foxes drillshine really good marths across like pokemon stadium, and besides that kind of frame by frame smash DI is hardly practical on a move with such little hitlag

it's possible to smash DI and tech the knee so you can live to obscene percents with every character, that doesn't make it practial

 

[elvenarrow3000]

It's a lot easier to SDI out of an infinite waveshine though because you can just spam quartercircle DI, as you get multiple opportunities, rather than just one, like the knee.

 

[KirbyKaze]

yes i read that..and i think i've read most of the useful advice on the matchup in the forums now..not much talk on when to hit with dash attack though...

If you're close enough to hit with dash attack then do it. If not, don't. Very simple. Space so you won't be grabbed if you plan to do it on shields.

it seems to be my biggest issue. Doing it before they land if they have good spacing gets your faired, waiting till afterward works best, but a lot of marths insert dtilt, which also deals with grabs quite well.

If he has enough time to do D-tilt after you weren't spacing against his approach well enough. Alternatively, if he's retreating that much, chuck needles and make him approach if that's the issue.

Basically, it seems i can run in and shield grab/CC aerials if they do them early, or if the fair hits low on my shield, i can wavedash out or JC upsmash if they intend to spotdodge/ run through.

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Sheik's shield game is amazing.

however, do i have any options to punish a perfectly spaced fair into a spaced dtilt? if not, i am just going to wd back and reset everytime i fail to get inside the fairs range.

That works to an extent, but it's also worth learning how to get closer without being in his Fair range. Sheik's range and running forward power on her Dash Attack work very good to getting into Marth spacing, and there's no reason to retreat every time. Take advantage of him jumping. Dash Attack underneath his Fair if you're quick; his Fair starts really high and takes a bit of time to come down. It's something Foxes do but it works really awesome with Sheik too.

What place if any does spotdodge have in this matchup? jabbing seems better in most cases if they are dashdancing..so i guess i just use it when i'm trapped in shield and have no other recourse?

Jab gets you ***** by CC but if they openly show they don't know the benefit of holding down vs a character whose combo starters (aside from D-throw and Dash Attack) are predominantly weak tilts and jab setups then sure go for it. WD OoS > spotdodge most of the time. Spot-dodge IMHO is best when you see an aerial coming out that they're doing really late on your shield to try and get some sort of shield advantage. From there you punish with something fast. Or if you see them coming at you with grab.

tl;dr if you're having problems getting Dash Attack because they're not in range you're doing it wrong.

 

[knightpraetor]

needling out of shield..why didn't i ever think of that..such a nub sometimes.
yeah, i think i was just letting myself get camped too much earlier..it seems really easy to space the dash attack now if i force an approach.

so when does CC work and not work? I mean, if you're dashing you can still CC and get a grab, but does it also work when you're in aerial lag and get hit? I never really think about these things, i just hold down and try for it.

I was just thinking that you said you can spotdodge a low aerial and do a fast move, and I was wondering whether jab was an option and whether CCing still took effect when they are in aerial lag.

I mean CCing seems strong, but even at the pro level you see a lot of jabbing by people like kdj. And jabs can be CC till pretty high percents i think.

ok, i rewatched those vids, and most of the jabs were either after an aerial was going to hit a shield, to continue a combo, or after having rolled behind marth so that it would hit the back of marth or the back of his shield (though I would think that jabbing the back of marth is just as bad since the jab turns you around).

I also wonder here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7YSOiR28cA&feature=related
at 6 sec pc jabs instead of spotdodges, it looks like maybe m2k was dashing away too.

Is it superior to jab when they are close in rather than spotdodge? when and where should i risk jabbing at grounded opponents.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think aerial lag and whatnot affects it but you'd have to ask Magus.

I know when you're in a move animation you're not technically "crouching" you're just ASDIing down (the "cancel"). Magus had a post on it, ask elven or someone to link you to it (someone who's likely to have it bookmarked lolz). If you don't believe me, compared hitting a crouching Jiggs with strong Uair at like 20 vs a Resting Jiggs with strong Uair at like 20. The crouched one will just crouch the Rester will fall over. So, yeah, stuff like that affects it.

A lot of good players have strange punishable habits that go unpunished because of a bunch of reasons. I think the Shine is a big factor in why Jabbing is probably more okay with Fox, but idk Fox well enough to be able to back that up with facts or anything like that. When PC was behind M2K I really don't know why he'd choose to Jab over something else but if he's trying to make M2K roll or WD it's a good plan because Shine sort of commits you to a few things (jump, and permutations of jump, notably).

If they're close I'd do Jab before Sidestep because I can do more stuff after Jab if I catch them offguard with it (Rapid Jabs, Jab and buffer roll or whatever, etc) but it really depends on who you're playing against.

The KDJ vids where he jabs a lot with Sheik are like 2007 vids. It's really old. M2K wasn't CCing all of them, though, so it was worth it to get the grabs and automatic combos. I exaggerate how bad Jabs are, probably, but that's because the Marths I play don't miss CCs frequently enough for me to have overall profit from them. For me Jabbing doesn't work at all against most characters, but maybe it will for you.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I don't have anything bookmarked... I have to find it all the time =(

 

[LooksLikePit]

I am always impressed my elvenarrow3000's vast knowledge of every character. good ****

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Aw shucks, I just pick up stuff as I go =P

 

[soap]

when marth does anything that owns a sheik, what do you do?...cry...

he has a point

The KDJ vids where he jabs a lot with Sheik are like 2007 vids. It's really old. M2K wasn't CCing all of them, though, so it was worth it to get the grabs and automatic combos. I exaggerate how bad Jabs are, probably, but that's because the Marths I play don't miss CCs frequently enough for me to have overall profit from them. For me Jabbing doesn't work at all against most characters, but maybe it will for you.

CCing is so fresh and hip nowadays. I have to base all my strats on keeping myself safe from CCC it seems.

I remember magus saying u cant CC needles. a full load of aerial needles is a money a$$ approach at low percents.

 

[KirbyKaze]

soap is much more creative than me.

i just run away and throw **** at people now.

 

[soap]

standing needles are easier to connect with, but it feels real good to connect the needles then follow it up with a combo.