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What makes Mario low tier?

Alopex

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
909
I'm just curious, really. Who knows when the SBR will have Mario on the weekly discussion thread.

I just don't see what about him makes him so bad.

He's got great smashes, great aerials, a decent recovery, the cape, a useful projectile, a strong throw that easily kills, mid weight, and good overall speed.

Is it priority that gimps him so badly?
 

SkylerOcon

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Nothing. Mario's a middle-tier character. He just doesn't have any tournament representation to prove that.
 

hippiedude92

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Wishing Apex 2012 happened again.
It's mostly revolving around his crappy range, semi-average recovery (all it takes to force him to use his second jump and then hit him back again offstage and hes a goner), and most of all Tourney results. IMO I think he should be right below luigi.

I always thought peeps like bo x7, monk and boss were representing mario no?
 

A2ZOMG

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He has bad range on most attacks and his grab, his recovery is just average, and he isn't exceptionally powerful, but I don't think he's all that bad. He does have some redeeming matchups against fastfallers, and Teh_Spammerer unlike me thinks Mario does pretty good against G&W due to having a good Up-B out of shield.

I'd say Mario is one of the faster characters in Brawl. Not many characters can lay claim to being able to use two aerials in one short hop. His tilts and Smashes are all pretty fast too. His edgeguarding and juggling is also pretty good. He's not particularly good at scoring KOs, but at least his kill options are fast and have OK range.
 

Radiation

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Mario has everything, but he's mediocre at everything. Everything done by Mario is done better by someone else, namely Luigi. He lacks range, speed, and kill power. His tilts are generic and crappy (you can juggle with utilt, but so can everybody else and his is honestly not that great for it), his smashes are greatly overshadowed by Luigi's (they all lack killing power/range, stutter step fsmash is okay and dsmash is great but fails to kill so bleh).

His projectile is combo-y and pretty okay if a little slow, so that helps a little bit, but his other specials kind of blow. FLUDD is really hard to use well, and his cape is hard to gimp with and a lot less useful when it comes to flipping people around. Plus his meteor smash is super predictable with no range. That doesn't mean that you can't gimp with these, it's just that many other characters have easily done, reliable gimps, so it's kind of pathetic.

His aerials are overall okay and combo alright, but they all LACK RANGE and uair combos so close to the ground one airdodge will get you out of it. B-air has good range but it's the only one with ANY range so it gets kind of predictable if you use it too much. Compared to the speed, priority, and comboing-power of Luigi's aerials, Mario's are pretty pathetic.

Luigi doesn't have any range, but he has good killing power and great combos. Mario has mediocre killing power, no range, and okay combos. Luigi is mid-tier. Mario deserves low-tier. And don't think I'm a Mario hater, I liked Mario a lot and used him as my main secondary for a long time until about a month ago, I was pretty good with him.

I realized that although he seems "average" and "mid-tier," almost all the characters in this game have at LEAST something above-average going for them if not excellent (at least Falcon has the knee, the punch, the kick, his running grab, u-air, the dsmash, and his awesome running speed) despite their flaws. Mario has very little above-average going for him (probably his combo power, which is still overshadowed by others), nothing that he does better than anyone else, and he has some pretty annoying flaws to boot. The only reason he SEEMS average is because he IS average in a game full of ABOVE-average characters.

ps - I loved mario in melee I'm sad that unlike everyone else, nothing really got any better about him

[edit: mario IS above-average fast, but not... like... fast enough to make him great]
 

hippiedude92

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Wishing Apex 2012 happened again.
Mario has everything, but he's mediocre at everything. Everything done by Mario is done better by someone else, namely Luigi. He lacks range, speed, and kill power. His tilts are generic and crappy (you can juggle with utilt, but so can everybody else and his is honestly not that great for it), his smashes are greatly overshadowed by Luigi's (they all lack killing power/range, stutter step fsmash is okay and dsmash is great but fails to kill so bleh).

His projectile is combo-y and pretty okay if a little slow, so that helps a little bit, but his other specials kind of blow. FLUDD is really hard to use well, and his cape is hard to gimp with and a lot less useful when it comes to flipping people around. Plus his meteor smash is super predictable with no range. That doesn't mean that you can't gimp with these, it's just that many other characters have easily done, reliable gimps, so it's kind of pathetic.

His aerials are overall okay and combo alright, but they all LACK RANGE and uair combos so close to the ground one airdodge will get you out of it. B-air has good range but it's the only one with ANY range so it gets kind of predictable if you use it too much. Compared to the speed, priority, and comboing-power of Luigi's aerials, Mario's are pretty pathetic.

Luigi doesn't have any range, but he has good killing power and great combos. Mario has mediocre killing power, no range, and okay combos. Luigi is mid-tier. Mario deserves low-tier. And don't think I'm a Mario hater, I liked Mario a lot and used him as my main secondary for a long time until about a month ago, I was pretty good with him.

I realized that although he seems "average" and "mid-tier," almost all the characters in this game have at LEAST something above-average going for them if not excellent (at least Falcon has the knee, the punch, the kick, his running grab, u-air, the dsmash, and his awesome running speed) despite their flaws. Mario has very little above-average going for him (probably his combo power, which is still overshadowed by others), nothing that he does better than anyone else, and he has some pretty annoying flaws to boot. The only reason he SEEMS average is because he IS average in a game full of ABOVE-average characters.

ps - I loved mario in melee I'm sad that unlike everyone else, nothing really got any better about him

[edit: mario IS above-average fast, but not... like... fast enough to make him great]

what? now its a luigi compare and contrast mario thing now?
 

A2ZOMG

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[edit: mario IS above-average fast, but not... like... fast enough to make him great]
Yeah, screw MK. =(

Mario DOES however have the best stutter stepped F-smash. No lie.

Oh and Falcon doesn't have any good attacks. EVERYONE ELSE does. Knee sweetspot is hard to land and has bad landing lag. Falcon Kick slows down when it hits a shield. Falcon Punch is close to unusable due to startup and ending lag. D-smash has too much startup lag.
 

SkylerOcon

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Mario has the best gimping potential in the game. That's not just above average, that's what makes everybody else below average.
 

Ray/Boshi

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I don't even think tourney results would up Mario drastically higher on the list. Unless there was a whole slew of mario mains every which a way taking all kinds of top positions on each individual tournament.

Move for move. He can potentially gimp recovery's if the opposition left wide open. Easy KO's possibly. Now if we got together and figured out a surefire way to go about gimping each individual character flawlessly. Then yeah, Mario would raise up. Otherwise he'l remain where he's at. A mediocre character, against the potentially better characters on the roster.
 

Matt07

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I whole-heartedly agree with everyone else's opinion on this. In my opinion I think Pit is the new 'mediocre' character in this game, someone took Mario's place.
 

SothE700k

Smash Lord
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Mario has everything, but he's mediocre at everything. Everything done by Mario is done better by someone else, namely Luigi. He lacks range, speed, and kill power. His tilts are generic and crappy (you can juggle with utilt, but so can everybody else and his is honestly not that great for it), his smashes are greatly overshadowed by Luigi's (they all lack killing power/range, stutter step fsmash is okay and dsmash is great but fails to kill so bleh).

His projectile is combo-y and pretty okay if a little slow, so that helps a little bit, but his other specials kind of blow. FLUDD is really hard to use well, and his cape is hard to gimp with and a lot less useful when it comes to flipping people around. Plus his meteor smash is super predictable with no range. That doesn't mean that you can't gimp with these, it's just that many other characters have easily done, reliable gimps, so it's kind of pathetic.

His aerials are overall okay and combo alright, but they all LACK RANGE and uair combos so close to the ground one airdodge will get you out of it. B-air has good range but it's the only one with ANY range so it gets kind of predictable if you use it too much. Compared to the speed, priority, and comboing-power of Luigi's aerials, Mario's are pretty pathetic.

Luigi doesn't have any range, but he has good killing power and great combos. Mario has mediocre killing power, no range, and okay combos. Luigi is mid-tier. Mario deserves low-tier. And don't think I'm a Mario hater, I liked Mario a lot and used him as my main secondary for a long time until about a month ago, I was pretty good with him.

I realized that although he seems "average" and "mid-tier," almost all the characters in this game have at LEAST something above-average going for them if not excellent (at least Falcon has the knee, the punch, the kick, his running grab, u-air, the dsmash, and his awesome running speed) despite their flaws. Mario has very little above-average going for him (probably his combo power, which is still overshadowed by others), nothing that he does better than anyone else, and he has some pretty annoying flaws to boot. The only reason he SEEMS average is because he IS average in a game full of ABOVE-average characters.

ps - I loved mario in melee I'm sad that unlike everyone else, nothing really got any better about him

[edit: mario IS above-average fast, but not... like... fast enough to make him great]
TL;DR: Mario is the jack of all trades, master of none.
 

BoTastic!

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Mario actually deserves to be mid tier. Bottom of the mid tier at least. His killing Power isn't even really mediocre. His Fsmash when fresh and even not freshed kills at decent percents. Usmash, Dair and Bair also have decent priority. and judging from Boss's performance. Mario deservese to be a little higher.
 

Matt07

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Yea, the only thing stopping him from rising is tournament turn-outs. We have like maybe 5 Mario mains going to tournaments with Mario, that's not enough to make a substantial raise. Why did I have to live in Canada :(.
 

Matador

Maybe Even...Utopian?
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Mario has everything, but he's mediocre at everything. Everything done by Mario is done better by someone else, namely Luigi. He lacks range, speed, and kill power. His tilts are generic and crappy (you can juggle with utilt, but so can everybody else and his is honestly not that great for it), his smashes are greatly overshadowed by Luigi's (they all lack killing power/range, stutter step fsmash is okay and dsmash is great but fails to kill so bleh).
Luigi's not better than Mario. Explanation once I'm done muddling through this sea of speculation.

Mario's utilt is a good tilt when used properly. Properly meaning when u aren't just using it for chains but to keep Uair binds going or to reset your combos when your opponent is moving out of reach. Ftilt is good for helping to rack up damage when you want to keep a fresh Fsmash, and combos into aerials. I've also heard that a down angled Ftilt can trip. Dtilt is crap, however.

Mario's Dsmash is better than Luigi's because of the direction it knocks opponents and kill power. Mario's up angled Fsmash kills most characters at 100% staled. Usmash has plenty of range, priority, kill power, and combo ability. All of Mario's smashes are great and have easy setups. Luigi's Fsmash kills at lower %, but has much less range, and has to be thrown out blindly to land. Usmash is better, because of range.

His projectile is combo-y and pretty okay if a little slow, so that helps a little bit, but his other specials kind of blow. FLUDD is really hard to use well, and his cape is hard to gimp with and a lot less useful when it comes to flipping people around. Plus his meteor smash is super predictable with no range. That doesn't mean that you can't gimp with these, it's just that many other characters have easily done, reliable gimps, so it's kind of pathetic.
This is kind of funny but riddled with a lack of knowledge. Fludd and Cape aren't "Hard" to use unless you don't know how to use them. They come with practice. Mario has one of the best upB's in the game, and his Fireballs are spammable and create beautiful setups and approaches. Also, since Luigi doesn't even HAVE a meteor (taunt and dair? lol), I don't think that its really a bad point of Mario's. Mario's Fair can be combo'd into as well and has about the same range as his Bair so....

His aerials are overall okay and combo alright, but they all LACK RANGE and uair combos so close to the ground one airdodge will get you out of it. B-air has good range but it's the only one with ANY range so it gets kind of predictable if you use it too much. Compared to the speed, priority, and comboing-power of Luigi's aerials, Mario's are pretty pathetic.
Mario can combo just as well as Luigi can. Mario's aerials have enough range to keep him from being outspaced for an entire match by characters like Ike, Marth, or Bowser; mainly because of his Bair and Nair. He also has fireballs to start combos and approach when he needs to switch things up. Mario's also much faster than Luigi, so he can keep up better pressure and get within range of these characters with disjointed hitboxes better. Spacing a stutterstepped Fsmash is much easier because of all the range that it has. Luigi's aerials aren't faster than Mario's, and don't have more priority than Mario's. I'll give you priority, but only over Mario, which isn't even a big deal when compared to the roster.

Luigi doesn't have any range, but he has good killing power and great combos. Mario has mediocre killing power, no range, and okay combos. Luigi is mid-tier. Mario deserves low-tier. And don't think I'm a Mario hater, I liked Mario a lot and used him as my main secondary for a long time until about a month ago, I was pretty good with him.
You're condensing the characters here. Lets look at their REAL pros and cons:
Luigi has great killing power, okay range, okay priority, an okay recovery, great combos, abysmal approach, okay edgeguarding/gimping, very slow, an okay projectile, and a below average defensive game.

Mario has decent killing power, below average range, good priority, a good recovery, great combos, good approach, great edgeguarding, good speed, and a decent defensive game.

Luigi is better than Mario SOLELY in their matchup. If you pit Luigi against some of the same characters as Mario, he crashes and burns. Luigi's only approach option is tornado and maybe a fastfalled Nair which is only safe vs characters with generally less priority. Luigi can't follow up his projectile like Mario, can't deal with projectile spam, can't punish as well because of his speed and traction (lol, shieldgrabbing), and has an easily gimped recovery. His range and priority are only good vs Mario because that's one of the only characters that he has more range and priority than. If a person can space and has more range than Luigi, there's nothing he can do; God forbid that character has a projectile. Mario deserves higher than lowtier; the future lowtier tourneys will prove this.

I realized that although he seems "average" and "mid-tier," almost all the characters in this game have at LEAST something above-average going for them if not excellent (at least Falcon has the knee, the punch, the kick, his running grab, u-air, the dsmash, and his awesome running speed) despite their flaws. Mario has very little above-average going for him (probably his combo power, which is still overshadowed by others), nothing that he does better than anyone else, and he has some pretty annoying flaws to boot. The only reason he SEEMS average is because he IS average in a game full of ABOVE-average characters.
MK is better at pretty much everything than everyone else in the game, so this idea is silly. Looking at the game like this makes it too 2 dimensional. You must look at the character overall, not in bits and pieces. You must look at how well each character can deal with certain situations based on what their options are. Saying "He has more range, and priority. He must be able to space better" is a flawed outlook on explaining why a character is where he is on a tier list.

This is the same reason why matchup discussion is so difficult. People look at bits and pieces of characters they haven't even touched to explain why their character has the upper hand.

ps - I loved mario in melee I'm sad that unlike everyone else, nothing really got any better about him
You can't really say this because they're 2 different games. I could say that he has more kill power, better recovery, better projectile, safer approach, and better gimping ability, and would seem right, but this is simplifying the comparison. You have to look at something as simple as kill power in comparison with their respective rosters, how well he can score kills and approach for kills, what his options were for kills in both games, and who it was easier to score kills on because of more range or w/e amongst other things.

Better to just not compare the two games like that.

[edit: mario IS above-average fast, but not... like... fast enough to make him great]
This is probably the only thing I sort of agree with.
 

The Trump Card

Smash Cadet
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Wouldn't Mario be one of the better characters at gimping in the game? Mario seems above-average at edgeguarding to me.
 

SothE700k

Smash Lord
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Wouldn't Mario be one of the better characters at gimping in the game? Mario seems above-average at edgeguarding to me.
He does have the tools to be a good edgeguarder. He's got the cape, a wall of pain b-air, spike f-air, and a fast and possible kill with u-air. Heck, n-air works too!
Some argue about the flood, i'll leave that to others to discuss...
 

HeroMystic

Legacy of the Mario
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FLUDD is an excellent edgeguard tool. It (and the cape) is the sole reason why people prefer either going really high or really low to recover when fighting Mario.
 

cHooKay

Smash Journeyman
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Mar 9, 2008
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Mario has everything, but he's mediocre at everything. Everything done by Mario is done better by someone else, namely Luigi. He lacks range, speed, and kill power. His tilts are generic and crappy (you can juggle with utilt, but so can everybody else and his is honestly not that great for it), his smashes are greatly overshadowed by Luigi's (they all lack killing power/range, stutter step fsmash is okay and dsmash is great but fails to kill so bleh).

His projectile is combo-y and pretty okay if a little slow, so that helps a little bit, but his other specials kind of blow. FLUDD is really hard to use well, and his cape is hard to gimp with and a lot less useful when it comes to flipping people around. Plus his meteor smash is super predictable with no range. That doesn't mean that you can't gimp with these, it's just that many other characters have easily done, reliable gimps, so it's kind of pathetic.

His aerials are overall okay and combo alright, but they all LACK RANGE and uair combos so close to the ground one airdodge will get you out of it. B-air has good range but it's the only one with ANY range so it gets kind of predictable if you use it too much. Compared to the speed, priority, and comboing-power of Luigi's aerials, Mario's are pretty pathetic.

Luigi doesn't have any range, but he has good killing power and great combos. Mario has mediocre killing power, no range, and okay combos. Luigi is mid-tier. Mario deserves low-tier. And don't think I'm a Mario hater, I liked Mario a lot and used him as my main secondary for a long time until about a month ago, I was pretty good with him.

I realized that although he seems "average" and "mid-tier," almost all the characters in this game have at LEAST something above-average going for them if not excellent (at least Falcon has the knee, the punch, the kick, his running grab, u-air, the dsmash, and his awesome running speed) despite their flaws. Mario has very little above-average going for him (probably his combo power, which is still overshadowed by others), nothing that he does better than anyone else, and he has some pretty annoying flaws to boot. The only reason he SEEMS average is because he IS average in a game full of ABOVE-average characters.

ps - I loved mario in melee I'm sad that unlike everyone else, nothing really got any better about him

[edit: mario IS above-average fast, but not... like... fast enough to make him great]
This dude fails hard, really, REALLY, hard.....:urg:

Hahaha stop hating on mario, BEFORE YOU GET MARIOWNED!!!!
It seems as if you tried mario once and gave up on him, mario can juggle better than weegee and can gimp like the entire cast with his abilities which is something luigi can't do. His arials are close towards being just as fast as luigi, and since it doesn't have as much knockback as weegee as well as mario's additional weight, he can apply his uair, dair, and nair into chains just as good if not better than luigi.

I'll see you on the SWF as soon as it opens back up....FYI, mario needs more rep. That's why he's low, because people like you blow past him without any regards. You never mained mario dude, stop lying.....
 

SkylerOcon

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Do I have to say it again?

Mario beats every character in the game in terms of gimping an edgeguarding. Using the cape to quick-grab the ledge has gotten me so many edgeguarding kills that without it would've left me stage spiked.

Mario is the best edgeguarder/gimper/edgehogger.
 

cHooKay

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Do I have to say it again?

Mario beats every character in the game in terms of gimping an edgeguarding. Using the cape to quick-grab the ledge has gotten me so many edgeguarding kills that without it would've left me stage spiked.

Mario is the best edgeguarder/gimper/edgehogger.
AGREED!

This fact only should at least place mario mid, I had so many victories based off of this fact, plus a few random ko's around decent percentages. Mario flaws the design of a characters recovery. DO YOU KNOW HOW SERIOUS THIS IS! No joke, mario + skilled smash player = the end of all recovery methods. LOL.....
 

Matador

Maybe Even...Utopian?
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Do I have to say it again?

Mario beats every character in the game in terms of gimping an edgeguarding. Using the cape to quick-grab the ledge has gotten me so many edgeguarding kills that without it would've left me stage spiked.

Mario is the best edgeguarder/gimper/edgehogger.
Mario's edgeguarding pales in comparison to MK.

Rob, D3, and Shiek are all about on Mario's level; Rob especially.
 

SkylerOcon

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MK doesn't count.

<_<

But, can we agree that Mario has the best options for offstage opponents overall?
 

hippiedude92

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Wishing Apex 2012 happened again.
Not really on Mk but that far. ESpically if their MK shuttle looping happy ones. cause you know how purty it is to cape a shuttle loop?

Why does a luigi vs mario comparsion always break out ? >.> Hes mid-tier already so who cares. Marios can gimp 4/5's of the cast iirc. If it wasn't for his awesome gimping he'd probably be lower imo.
 

SkylerOcon

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Ah yes. Good ol' Capeglide.

I'm still working on trying to capeglide on the stage. Epic cape movement = Mario Top Tier.
 

Oblique

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Aug 11, 2008
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i still think Mario is good not high tier but mid tier. i have actually beat DDD and meta night on teams 2v1 (i was using Mario) , i destroyed them not so much mk he took some time and did a lot of dmg. other then that landslide.

Of course this might not happen in an actual game with mk (pro) & DDD (chain grab spammer)
 

A2ZOMG

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Y'know something, I don't give a **** what people say about Mario at the end of the day. He's Mr. Nintendo, and nothing will change that he's completely badass and the best thing that has ever happened to video games. I only wish that Nintendo did a better job of acknowledging their main man, so it's up to us to do that for them the way I see things.

Still, it really irks me when a prick goes on dissing this guy.
 

SkylerOcon

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Agreed. Only one character is allowed to be broken in Smash: Mario.

and Captain Falcon
 

smash501

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NO way

Mario being low tier is stupid...for everyone saying he has bad range..thats a lie..his shutter step f-smash goes very far out and all of his smashes can be sweetspotted pretty easily...setting up a ko at 80% at times.. He has AMAZING edgehogging abilities like fludd and the cape...the only bad thing is that once someone hits him after his second jump..he can be ledged pretty easily..thats it! and the fact that he can be k0ed easily...but still thats no way low tier..he deserves middle tier at least.
 

Delta_BP26

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Luigi's not better than Mario. Explanation once I'm done muddling through this sea of speculation.

Mario's utilt is a good tilt when used properly. Properly meaning when u aren't just using it for chains but to keep Uair binds going or to reset your combos when your opponent is moving out of reach. Ftilt is good for helping to rack up damage when you want to keep a fresh Fsmash, and combos into aerials. I've also heard that a down angled Ftilt can trip. Dtilt is crap, however.
Luigi's U-tilt is not as good at ******, but it has better range and sets up for aerial slaughter.

Mario's Dsmash is better than Luigi's because of the direction it knocks opponents and kill power. Mario's up angled Fsmash kills most characters at 100% staled. Usmash has plenty of range, priority, kill power, and combo ability. All of Mario's smashes are great and have easy setups. Luigi's Fsmash kills at lower %, but has much less range, and has to be thrown out blindly to land. Usmash is better, because of range.
You never really use a D-Smash for killing and you're overhyping the F-Smash power by a lot. Luigi's Up-Smash is the same thing. You can't be serious about the F-Smash either. I really hope you're joking.

This is kind of funny but riddled with a lack of knowledge. Fludd and Cape aren't "Hard" to use unless you don't know how to use them. They come with practice. Mario has one of the best upB's in the game, and his Fireballs are spammable and create beautiful setups and approaches. Also, since Luigi doesn't even HAVE a meteor (taunt and dair? lol), I don't think that its really a bad point of Mario's. Mario's Fair can be combo'd into as well and has about the same range as his Bair so....
D-Air is still a spike and will be mastered over time. Mario's spike is horrible and rarely connects correctly.

Mario can combo just as well as Luigi can. Mario's aerials have enough range to keep him from being outspaced for an entire match by characters like Ike, Marth, or Bowser; mainly because of his Bair and Nair. He also has fireballs to start combos and approach when he needs to switch things up. Mario's also much faster than Luigi, so he can keep up better pressure and get within range of these characters with disjointed hitboxes better. Spacing a stutterstepped Fsmash is much easier because of all the range that it has. Luigi's aerials aren't faster than Mario's, and don't have more priority than Mario's. I'll give you priority, but only over Mario, which isn't even a big deal when compared to the roster.
Mario's aerial range, speed and priority are nothing compared to Luigi. Luigi can SH 3 aerials (If you end with N-Air) and they all have killing and edgeguarding power, save the nerfed F-Air. They all combo extremely well and he has the godly anti-combo, N-Air, which has ridiculous priority and kill/combo power. It's also strange that you don't mention the Up-B. The Shoryuken has many setups and the kill power is insane.

You're condensing the characters here. Lets look at their REAL pros and cons:
Luigi has great killing power, okay range, okay priority, an okay recovery, great combos, abysmal approach, okay edgeguarding/gimping, very slow, an okay projectile, and a below average defensive game.

Mario has decent killing power, below average range, good priority, a good recovery, great combos, good approach, great edgeguarding, good speed, and a decent defensive game.
Mario's recovery is very bad, and you can't be ****ing serious if you say Luigi's recovery is "okay." Ever heard of the rising tornado? He can only be gimped by, like, Sonic, with the **** spring. You also can't be serious about his approaches. He has aerial/grounded tornado, SH Double B-Air, SH Double F-Air to N-Air, SH Double D-Air to N-Air, and any mix of them. His aerials are amongst the best in the game and they all approach well.

Luigi is better than Mario SOLELY in their matchup. If you pit Luigi against some of the same characters as Mario, he crashes and burns. Luigi's only approach option is tornado and maybe a fastfalled Nair which is only safe vs characters with generally less priority. Luigi can't follow up his projectile like Mario, can't deal with projectile spam, can't punish as well because of his speed and traction (lol, shieldgrabbing), and has an easily gimped recovery. His range and priority are only good vs Mario because that's one of the only characters that he has more range and priority than. If a person can space and has more range than Luigi, there's nothing he can do; God forbid that character has a projectile. Mario deserves higher than lowtier; the future lowtier tourneys will prove this.
The N-Air is a priority GOD. Projectile spam is answered by a falling tornado, which eats through everything. Luigi, if you powershield the hit, has plenty of out-of-shield options. Luigi has bad range but you act as if he has 3 pixels of a hitbox on every single move. And yes, Mario is awesome.

MK is better at pretty much everything than everyone else in the game, so this idea is silly. Looking at the game like this makes it too 2 dimensional. You must look at the character overall, not in bits and pieces. You must look at how well each character can deal with certain situations based on what their options are. Saying "He has more range, and priority. He must be able to space better" is a flawed outlook on explaining why a character is where he is on a tier list.
I agree.

This is the same reason why matchup discussion is so difficult. People look at bits and pieces of characters they haven't even touched to explain why their character has the upper hand.
I agree here as well.
 

Matador

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Luigi's U-tilt is not as good at ******, but it has better range and sets up for aerial slaughter.
Luigi's Utilt is as good as Mario's for setups and chains.

You never really use a D-Smash for killing and you're overhyping the F-Smash power by a lot. Luigi's Up-Smash is the same thing. You can't be serious about the F-Smash either. I really hope you're joking.
Either way, Dsmash kills better than Luigi's even if its not generally a better killer. Unstaled, it's half decent as long as you hit at the tip of his foot. If it doesn't kill, it sets up for edgeguard, whereas Luigi's knocks the opponent up.

And sorry pal, but I'm not "hyping" the Fsmash. This is what it does. I've seen it. I'm not guessing or generalizing. It reliably kills at 100%. Maybe not from the center of FD when staled, but certainly from near the edge where I most often use it. I also probably should've added that I angle mine upward, which adds to kill power.

D-Air is still a spike and will be mastered over time. Mario's spike is horrible and rarely connects correctly.
By all means, master it. The hitbox remains terribly small and it isn't even that powerful a spike.

Mario's spike is horrible in the hands of a scrub. It'll never connect for them because they don't know how to space well, even though it's painfully simple to do. Even if you miss the hitbox and knock the opponent away, it has pretty powerful knockback; more than his Bair. Learn to use the Fair and you'll find it has quite a few uses, more than Luigi's terrible Dair spike.


Mario's aerial range, speed and priority are nothing compared to Luigi. Luigi can SH 3 aerials (If you end with N-Air) and they all have killing and edgeguarding power, save the nerfed F-Air. They all combo extremely well and he has the godly anti-combo, N-Air, which has ridiculous priority and kill/combo power. It's also strange that you don't mention the Up-B. The Shoryuken has many setups and the kill power is insane.
Luigi's has a little more range than Mario on a few moves in his moveset, and the Luigi mains go berserk. Luigi does NOT have more priority OR speed on his Aerials than Mario, they're both the same. Fitting 3 aerials into a shorthop as opposed to 2 means very little, especially when you factor in Luigi's horrid aerial mobility.

Mario's Nair and Uair are better for edgeguarding while Luigi's Dair and Bair are better. Fairs have about equal usage for edgeguarding. As for killpower, I'm honestly not sure. Even if he wins in that department, I've already given that to Luigi as the only thing he truly has over Mario.

Mario's nair breaks out of combos just like Luigi's. But Mario's upB breaks out of combos better than both because of the beginning invincibility frames. Mario's nair has less combo ability, range, and killpower, but I've been saying since day one that Luigi's Nair is broken, so w/e.

I prefer Mario's upB to Luigi's, especially since Luigi's Upangled Fsmash kills only a little higher but with much less risk. Missing Luigi's upB can cost a stock.



Mario's recovery is very bad, and you can't be ****ing serious if you say Luigi's recovery is "okay." Ever heard of the rising tornado? He can only be gimped by, like, Sonic, with the **** spring. You also can't be serious about his approaches. He has aerial/grounded tornado, SH Double B-Air, SH Double F-Air to N-Air, SH Double D-Air to N-Air, and any mix of them. His aerials are amongst the best in the game and they all approach well.
Mario's recovery is inferior to Luigi's ONLY distance-wise. Mario can protect his recovery much better than Luigi, and his upB gimps those who try to stop his approach to the stage. Fludding opponents trying to edgeguard completely prevents characters like MK or Marth from gimping you and sometimes sets up for Uair, or upB stagespikes. He also has fireballs to stop gimps, cape to stall when opponents are waiting to edgehog, and his fastfalled aerials.

Luigi's recovery has great distance, but anyone can gimp it. His sideB is easily stopped, his upB is sort of fast, but terrible, and he relys heavily on the tornado for recovery. If his tornado is taken away, his recovery becomes extremely predictable which adds on to it being already slow. Even if it's not taken away, Luigi has nothing to protect him from being gimped by oncoming attackers. If MK or Marth want to come out and gimp Luigi, he has to lift up his skirt.

Mario's recovery may not leave him able to circle the stage five times like Pit or Wario, but it's enough to help him recover from the bottom of FD or from Fox's Dsmash with good DI and protect him when pursuers try and gimp him.


The N-Air is a priority GOD. Projectile spam is answered by a falling tornado, which eats through everything. Luigi, if you powershield the hit, has plenty of out-of-shield options. Luigi has bad range but you act as if he has 3 pixels of a hitbox on every single move.
Mario and Luigi's Nair have the same priority, one's just more powerful.

Luigi's tornado has okay priority, and isn't safe on block. The ending lag afterward also pretty much screws its usage if someone knows how to deal with it.

Luigi's traction makes his OOS options inferior to Mario's, he can't even shield grab properly. His upB is also worse than Mario's for attacking OOS.

Luigi's range isn't a problem unless you add his horrible speed to the mix. He actually has pretty good range, but he can't use it properly on an aggressive opponent. Vs Mario, he's a walking powerhouse. He can rush right through him and score his KOs at 80% easy.

Vs anyone with any sort of priority and projectile, he's a goner. You have to work much harder than a Mario would to gain any room to breathe.

And yes, Mario is awesome.
This won't save you. The guy before you spewing his nonsense tried the same trick. Saying "I like Mario too so it's okay" isn't giving you an "I'm objective" pass to say whatever the hell you want.
 

Lord Viper

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My reason of saying why Mario is low tier is because not a lot of people use him. Just about every tourney that I went to so far I was just about the only person that used Mario. Some chracters are under played and that's why this tier list is incomplete and the first verson of it. Other then that, a lot of people pick the chracters that have the best tourney results because they are scared of loseing with they favorites.
 
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