What ledge system do you prefer, ledge hogging or ledge trumping?

[Necro'lic]

Another poll I want to do to see where people stand on this more divisive issue, hopefully a lot more divisive than my last one lol.

As always, try to articulate why you think the way you do. Discussion is always welcome.

 

[meleebrawler]

Another poll I want to do to see where people stand on this more divisive issue, hopefully a lot more divisive than my last one lol.

As always, try to articulate why you think the way you do. Discussion is always welcome.

The existence of Ivysaur should be reason enough to not go back to ledge-hogging. Having these forms of recovery be completely invalidated by such a simple maneuver...

 

[Crystanium]

I prefer ledge hogging, but at the same time it doesn't make sense that just because someone is hanging on that you cannot grab the ledge as well.

 

[Necro'lic]

Bump. I don't want this to be hidden this quickly.

EDIT: Actually Crystanium I guess I can ask why you prefer ledgehogging. I definitely prefer ledge trumping over it, but I can see one particular problem with it that can be fixed. Why do you prefer ledgehogging? If it's for the reason I think it is, I might have a good compromise for both.

 

[TheMightyP]

Ledgehogging really only workes the games were recovering was unsafe, and majority of the cast couldn't recover from deep of far off.

It wasn't needed in Brawl, since a lot of characters gained insane recoveries, as well as the introduction to tethers, which hogging flat out invalidated, defeating the purpose of a new mechanic.

Hogging would be useless in both Smash 4 and Ult, and overall, I prefer trumping, but both have their place.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

Personally, I think certain characters should be able to be ledgehogged, and others be able to trump, for example: the aforementioned tether recoveries of course should be able to grab ledge still. But I do still like it enough as it is right now, so no big deal to me.

 

[Sean²]

I liked ledgehogging. I think it promotes going offstage more for more dynamic edgeguards. With trumping it makes edgeguarding characters with broken recoveries annoying because you might get a clean edgeguard, but if they hit the ledge just after you, suddenly you’re in disadvantage for even trying. So it’s better to stay closer to the stage with the trumping mechanic existing. With ledgehogging, you can keep edgeguarding them before they get back, so they’re forced to go onstage if they can make it back at all, which keeps your advantage state open. You also gain more depth, with both options of ledgehogging and ledge trapping being in play. As long as they keep the invincibility at the ledge to only the first grab, as well, to prevent planking. I think if this mechanic replaced trumping, we could go back to 4 stocks as a standard with Ultimate.

Or a mixture of the two - say maybe the first time you grab ledge, you can hog it, but times thereafter before touching ground again, you could be trumped. So if you want to go for deep edgeguards, you have to leave the ledge open for a moment before trying again.

 

[osby]

Edge trumping. Edge hogging is really cheap and free edge guard against characters like Little Mac. Good riddance.

 

[Necro'lic]

I liked ledgehogging. I think it promotes going offstage more for more dynamic edgeguards. With trumping it makes edgeguarding characters with broken recoveries annoying because you might get a clean edgeguard, but if they hit the ledge just after you, suddenly you’re in disadvantage for even trying. So it’s better to stay closer to the stage with the trumping mechanic existing. With ledgehogging, you can keep edgeguarding them before they get back, so they’re forced to go onstage if they can make it back at all, which keeps your advantage state open. You also gain more depth, with both options of ledgehogging and ledge trapping being in play. As long as they keep the invincibility at the ledge to only the first grab, as well, to prevent planking. I think if this mechanic replaced trumping, we could go back to 4 stocks as a standard with Ultimate.

Or a mixture of the two - say maybe the first time you grab ledge, you can hog it, but times thereafter before touching ground again, you could be trumped. So if you want to go for deep edgeguards, you have to leave the ledge open for a moment before trying again.

I feel ya. It feels like the main argument against ledgetrumping is that if your opponent happens to reach the ledge before you do because you attempted to edgeguard actively, you will be put at disadvantage, so best not take the risk.

I think a good change would be to base who ledgetrumps who based on "air time" offstage. For example, if your opponent takes a while to get back to the ledge from offstage (because they are recovering), then as long as you go offstage and end up offstage for less time than they would (which is very likely considering the distance they have to start to recover vs you going off stage), then because you were off stage for less time, you will trump them regardless of if they go there first.

This solves two issues. With ledgetrumping, it solves the risk of going offstage to actively edgeguard by making it so as long as you aren't actively "reversaled" by the recovering player, you still have priority at the ledge should both of you make it back. With ledgehogging, it keeps the ability to recover low without a rather catch all mechanic to completely stop you since you can still get on the ledge, you'll just be forced back off briefly and can attempt to recover again.

 

[Sean²]

Edge trumping. Edge hogging is really cheap and free edge guard against characters like Little Mac. Good riddance.

I mean would a really good Little Mac ever get thrown off the stage for that to even matter?

 

[Christian_CAO]

edge hogging was a mistake.

1. makes zero sense to prevent another character from grabbing a ledge just because it is occupied.
2. characters in melee had crap recoveries anyway so why make it even harder to get back if your opponent just hugs the ledge

It does create a risk for recovery (as if just being in the position wasn't enough) where your already disadvantageous position becomes even more dire than it should be.

Offstage plays were more of a mental game than they are now this way as well. However, good recoveries and ledge trumping create way more offstage combat than what was available in melee.

I don't miss edge hogging. It just means that players have more of a chance to come back when they're off stage.

I mean would a really good Little Mac ever get thrown off the stage for that to even matter?

sometimes? I mean, zero to deaths happen so I guess not getting touched is possible but isn't it more likely that a player would have to be vastly superior in skill to their opponent to not get grabbed or hit with their CQC character in order to never worry about being offstage?

 

[Sean²]

edge hogging was a mistake.

1. makes zero sense to prevent another character from grabbing a ledge just because it is occupied.
2. characters in melee had crap recoveries anyway so why make it even harder to get back if your opponent just hugs the ledge

It does create a risk for recovery (as if just being in the position wasn't enough) where your already disadvantageous position becomes even more dire than it should be.

Offstage plays were more of a mental game than they are now this way as well. However, good recoveries and ledge trumping create way more offstage combat than what was available in melee.

I don't miss edge hogging. It just means that players have more of a chance to come back when they're off stage.


sometimes? I mean, zero to deaths happen so I guess not getting touched is possible but isn't it more likely that a player would have to be vastly superior in skill to their opponent to not get grabbed or hit with their CQC character in order to never worry about being offstage?

I meant it as a joke, mostly. Do people not remember "don't get hit"?

And I disagree with this:

• makes zero sense to prevent another character from grabbing a ledge just because it is occupied.

Makes perfect sense to me. You knocked them off and managed to keep them off, you clearly got the best of them. Why should they deserve to get back?

I used to welcome ledge trumping, but if you touch the ledge at almost the exact same time, and whatever micro-second longer it took for them to grab ends up trumping you, you are now at disadvantage. How is that a good mechanic? It's just frustrating and almost RNG in nature.

I'd be more willing to accept trumping if it were nerfed a bit - like I said before, maybe you can hog the ledge on your first grab, but subsequent grabs can can get you trumped - like what they did with invincibility. Or maybe you can only be trumped after like a timer of 2 seconds or something. Make it something doable, but add risk so you're not just hanging there waiting for an up b, just to roll back onto the stage for your free kill. Or just make it easier for all characters to get a runoff trump, kind of like how it was in Smash 4.

 

[Christian_CAO]

I meant it as a joke, mostly. Do people not remember "don't get hit"?

And I disagree with this:

Makes perfect sense to me. You knocked them off and managed to keep them off, you clearly got the best of them. Why should they deserve to get back?

I used to welcome ledge trumping, but if you touch the ledge at almost the exact same time, and whatever micro-second longer it took for them to grab ends up trumping you, you are now at disadvantage. How is that a good mechanic? It's just frustrating and almost RNG in nature.

I'd be more willing to accept trumping if it were nerfed a bit - like I said before, maybe you can hog the ledge on your first grab, but subsequent grabs can can get you trumped - like what they did with invincibility. Or maybe you can only be trumped after like a timer of 2 seconds or something. Make it something doable, but add risk so you're not just hanging there waiting for an up b, just to roll back onto the stage for your free kill. Or just make it easier for all characters to get a runoff trump, kind of like how it was in Smash 4.

No one "deserves" to come back. They'll only come back if you let them. Why not complain about recoveries being so good instead of the ledge system? Recoveries are great (except a few) for the most part, which is a better environment for melee and brawl style ledges. Still, attempting to come back to the stage from below in those games is barely possible unless the one in advantage Flubbed.

The trumping portion isn't the appeal of the ledge mechanic. It's a bonus. I do agree that it being so random when things get close for who grabbed the ledge first and that it shouldn't be that awkward but I do firmly believe that in this game of hitting each other till one person falls off the stage and dies shouldn't put the losing player in an even more disadvantageous situation than they already are. They're almost dead, the new ledges allow for them to come back if they are able. Nothing other than another edge guard option is lost with the loss of edge hogging. Players recovering low can actually make it back to the stage now without having to worry about someone just simply nabbing the ledge. If every recovery had a hit box, I'd welcome melee/brawl ledges more as well.

Heck, just give ledge sharing to tether recoveries and the ice climbers. Everyone else can enjoy melee/brawl ledges. Have a stable window for trumping an occupying player when the ledge is grabbed by two players at the same time and it'd please everybody...except players recovering low. They're already dead