What is up with everyone and Ness' fair?

[PKNintendo]

Fair is good, but not that good.

Now the Fsmash, now THAT's underrated. Tisk Tisk Ness mains.

Edit: I've been in a bad mood so sorry for being snippy.

 

[ColinJF]

It's definitely great.

Ness's best aerial is down air though.

 

[PKNintendo]

No Fair is Ness best aerial.

 

[Earthbound Zero]

It isn't the best Fair in the game.

It isn't the only good move Ness has.

But it is one of Ness' best moves, regardless.

 

[kennypu]

I do agree that the Fsmash is a little underrated, but nevertheless fair is very useful :3

 

[PKNintendo]

Fsmash FTW.

 

[Gaussis]

Fair is only hard to DI out of.

Spoiler

If you want to know why, PM me

Actually, fair is a powerful interrupter, especially if spaced correctly or used with his DJ. I don't think there is a character that can outrange a retreating one though (it has to do with the animation of the sparks). It has a high attack size to character ratio. Not to mention it lasts long enough to wear down the opponent's shield even if slightly, yet short enough to start another aerial out of a shorthop.

His best aerial is actually nair. It's a universal aerial (minus the range of fair).

Fsmash is underrated but let them think that. When they land on ground, I'll pull the bat and whack them with their faces going like "WTF, I put my shield out and still got hit. :O"

 

[PKNintendo]

Fair is only hard to DI out of.

Spoiler

If you want to know why, PM me

Actually, fair is a powerful interrupter, especially if spaced correctly or used with his DJ. I don't think there is a character that can outrange a retreating one though (it has to do with the animation of the sparks). It has a high attack size to character ratio. Not to mention it lasts long enough to wear down the opponent's shield even if slightly, yet short enough to start another aerial out of a shorthop.

His best aerial is actually nair. It's a universal aerial (minus the range of fair).

Fsmash is underrated but let them think that. When they land on ground, I'll pull the bat and whack them with their faces going like "WTF, I put my shield out and still got hit. :O"

Agreed. Nair is very cool. I can't play you today dude...

 

[A2ZOMG]

F-smash is a mediocre attack. It's slow, and has a bad charge release. It doesn't even have all that remarkable of range or crazy low ending lag to redeem it.

Its only really good qualities are damage and knockback...

 

[Gaussis]

It's really only a few frames slower than Lucas's (as in single digits). Besides, it's very effective on opponents that land near Ness, preferably out of an airdodge.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lucas's F-smash hits frame 14. That is too slow to be reliable. Neither F-smash has qualities like crazy low ending lag or particularly good range to help out. Sure they have disjointed priority and can reflect projectiles which is nice, but not enough...

 

[PKNintendo]

F-smash is a mediocre attack. It's slow, and has a bad charge release. It doesn't even have all that remarkable of range or crazy low ending lag to redeem it.

Its only really good qualities are damage and knockback...

Mediocre my Ike!

It's slightly faster than DK's fsmash, and I recall a lot of people saying it's amazing. It has less range though...

Who charges the Fsmash when it's base damage is 25%! 30% tipper, and 18% inner. It's knockback is ridiculous, especially if you tipper it. It's ending lag isn't that bad... No the move is incredibly underrated.

 

[A2ZOMG]

DK's F-smash is mediocre. It's okay on block because of the high range and pushback, but it's TOO slow and punishable on miss or powershield.

Ness's F-smash is way too slow and doesn't have enough range to be reliable. You can just approach him from an angle where it won't hit you if you see him winding up, and punish him.

 

[Gaussis]

Many other characters have smash attacks around Lucas's fsmash speed. Are they any less reliable?

Really though, it doesn't matter if the majority of players believe Ness's fsmash sucks. That makes the expression they get even more enjoyable when they're hit.

 

[Browny]

Fair is insane... Second best fair in the game imo behind marths

 

[ColinJF]

The bat isn't that good of a smash compared to all the smash attacks in the game, but it's underrated insofar as I regularly see people post that it's bad or that they rarely kill with it. If you have some concept of spacing, you can outspace a lot of aerials with it, and it does kill regularly.

Ness's down air is way too good by the way (and I don't mean over the edge).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Metaknight's F-smash has a good charge release and a hitbox that hits fairly high, and crazy low ending lag.

Snake's F-smash had a good charge release and low ending lag, and ridiculous pushback on shields.

G&W's Smashes have very good charge releases and high shield pushback and crazy low ending lag.

A number of F-smashes like Falcon's, Ganon's, Sonic's, and Mario's have quite a bit of range when stutterstepped. Mario's from what I've seen is the best of these for taking a particularly big step forward and being overall faster than the other three.

Just to give examples of how other Smashes that come out slowly do better than Ness's.

 

[PKNintendo]

Second best DJ? (asplodes)

What about MK, (and possible GaW) fairs?

Ness dair approach is pretty good.

AZ, did you just Ganons, and CF Fsmash we're better than Ness? They both have less range and are just as slow. Snake's Fsmash is garbage, like D3 level garbage. It's incredibly powerful but it's really slow. It's range isn't to hot either. I have NEVER seen a decent Snake use his Fsmash.

GaW has an impressive Fsmash)

Ness fsmash>Ganon's and CF's .

(Ness can stutterstep too BTW)

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ness's F-air is good, but not as good as those of characters like Metaknight, Marth, ROB, and G&W if you ask me.

I don't think Ness takes a step forward when stutterstepping F-smash. Ganondorf and Captain Falcon are characters that take a noticeable step forward when doing a reverse F-smash. Ganondorf's stutterstep F-smash for example I'm pretty sure outranges Marth's.

 

[Gaussis]

I'm lacking in the dair department. I only use it to scare off the opponent from abusing dodges and rolls and as a mix-up approach. Colin, you're going to have to give me a list on it's usefulness.

 

[PKNintendo]

Ness's F-air is good, but not as good as those of characters like Metaknight, Marth, ROB, and G&W if you ask me.

It's better than Robotic operating buddy IMO.

 

[A2ZOMG]

ROB's F-air can be done twice in a SH, gimps people, starts WOP combos, and has more range than Ness's (not disjointed IIRC, but doesn't matter because it comes out so fast).

 

[PKNintendo]

Ness's F-air is good, but not as good as those of characters like Metaknight, Marth, ROB, and G&W if you ask me.

I don't think Ness takes a step forward when stutterstepping F-smash. Ganondorf and Captain Falcon are characters that take a noticeable step forward when doing a reverse F-smash. Ganondorf's stutterstep F-smash for example I'm pretty sure outranges Marth's.

But it's incredibly slow... I get your point. But I disagree with CF, it's KO power doesn't rank with Ness' nor does it's damage. (Ness takes a small step)

Ness can use his fair twice too...

 

[Earthbound Zero]

You guys made me rethink Fsmash, it really surprises opponents. :D

 

[A2ZOMG]

Eh, Ness probably has a better F-smash than CF. Falcon's is garbage, but the point I'm trying to make is that Ness's F-smash doesn't have any particularly good qualities outside of the damage and knockback. It's range isn't anything remarkable, and it's too slow.

Snake's F-smash and D3's are situational, but aren't garbage. Both IIRC have good charge releases and low ending lag. D3's in particular has HUUUUUUGE range. If you read someone's spacing right, there are opportunities to start up their F-smashes, and from there, it can be very difficult to punish them.

 

[Earthbound Zero]

But D3's is ultra slow. ;P

I get what you mean though. We need Melee's bat back! xD

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bottom line anyhow. Ness's F-smash sucks in Brawl.

 

[PKNintendo]

Eh, Ness probably has a better F-smash than CF. Falcon's is garbage, but the point I'm trying to make is that Ness's F-smash doesn't have any particularly good qualities outside of the damage and knockback. It's range isn't anything remarkable, and it's too slow.

Snake's F-smash and D3's are situational, but aren't garbage. Both IIRC have good charge releases and low ending lag. D3's in particular has HUUUUUUGE range. If you read someone's spacing right, there are opportunities to start up their F-smashes, and from there, it can be very difficult to punish them.Ness too!

Eh times 2. Charging Snake's Fsmash is okay. Earlier KO's and it's release is fast, but it's still really slow. It's the 3rd slowest Fsmash in the game.

D3 has the range, but any character can pretty do anything to D3 (grab, attack e.c.t)

Ness>Snake and D3.

Ness fsmash was good in Melee, but not THAT good. I think Brawl's is only slightly inferior.

 

[ColinJF]

I'm lacking in the dair department. I only use it to scare off the opponent from abusing dodges and rolls and as a mix-up approach. Colin, you're going to have to give me a list on it's usefulness.

Well it's safe versus many characters' shields since you can land a good distance away from them. It hits above shields once they're worn down. It has a surprising amount of hitstun, so you can usually get into range to hit them again before hitstun wears off, which means they cannot escape its follow up by double jumping. They can escape it by air dodge, but using neutral air will hit them even if they air dodge. It only combos at low damage when fresh, but because of stale moves it can combo at higher damages if you use it as a staple move. Against aerial opponents it sets up for a tech chase. (I usually tech chase with another down air.) And of course the hitbox stays out long enough to effectively punish spot dodges and rolls.

Basically it's way too good.

 

[Gaussis]

It has a decent attack size to character size ratio, though. Not many characters benefit from that in Brawl. It's situational as well, but it is best used to punish landings (even empty jump landings).

@Colin: So you have to stale it in order to work for you. Never thought of doing that...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well, Ness doesn't have a good charge release on his F-smash. I mean, you can actually powershield his charge release on reaction because it takes like a full fraction of a second for him to attack from the charge release (watch for him to stop flashing, then of course shield at the right time).

 

[Earthbound Zero]

Thanks for reminding me how large Dair's range is Colin. xD It's amazing in so many ways. I probably use it more than Uair now that a think about it, it has so much priority.

 

[Gaussis]

It's advisable not to shield it. You might fall in an unwarranted charging mindgame. It happens with the yo-yos more often, but I've seen it happen with charging fsmashes and opponents shielding it instead of punishing. But yeah, charging sucks.

 

[PKNintendo]

Well, Ness doesn't have a good charge release on his F-smash. I mean, you can actually powershield his charge release on reaction because it takes like a full fraction of a second for him to attack from the charge release (watch for him to stop flashing, then of course shield at the right time).

Yeah it sucks... But who charges in Brawl anyway? I mean it's a rare occurence.

 

[ColinJF]

Charging is good with characters who have near instant charge releases because it prevents the opponent from powershielding the attack except by luck.

 

[Gaussis]

*looks at G&W's usmash

I remember charging G&W's usmash in Melee and noticed this occurrence transition to Brawl too. It works for the characters that have instant releases, but there aren't that many.

 

[Uffe]

Charging your attack is good if done correctly. You just have to know how to read your opponent. Might I remind you Ness mains that Ness' Baseball Bat comes out a bit quicker than Kirby's Hammer. I know Kirby's Hammer is forward B, but I see it hit a lot of his opponents and it's shorter ranged than Ness' Baseball Bat. Fair is a good attack and it's a good way to approach your opponent because it's really good, despite the fact it's overrated. Ness' nair is awesome for "combo" start ups, pushing opponents back for spacing and other stuff.

Ness' dair is awesome that you should use it almost all the time. Dair is good for spot dodgers, pressuring shields and spiking your opponent, so use that while you're on the stage and not just for spiking your opponent(s). PK Fire is good, but has lag. Still, it's good for starting up a different combos. You can either Bat them, dair them, use your Yo-yo, PK Jibaku and other stuff! This reminds me of what I was writing at All is Brawl last night. I'll stop.

 

[xoxokev]

true, Fsmash is a great move... but can be easily punished if it doesn't hit

 

[thesage]

F-smash is terrible and nair = fair = bair in terms of usefulness. They are all for different things however.

 

[Dajayman]

Fsmash is garbage. especially after playing some Melee. I get a fsmash hit once in a blue moon in Brawl, and nair is definately my favorite aerial. I'd die without Ness' nair.