What is this Yellow Card trash?

[chaddd]

What a stupid rule.

What is the deal with the sense of entitlement and selfishness of a community as a whole that they have to pass rules to try and prevent people from doing what they want with money that they earned?

This HAS to be the most asinine rule ever to be implemented by anyone.

First of all, it's completely at the discretion of the tournament director. So that means a TO can DQ me and take my money because he THINKS I was doing something he didn't like? Yeah that sounds like a tournament I want to go to.

But then, the major hole in such a ridiculous plan seems to lie in the fact that anyone with a brain stem can simply discuss a pot split in private with another player. They can then proceed to accept their winnings as usual and then split it up amongst themselves, once again, in private.

I refuse to adopt an idea that anyone can tell anyone else what they can and cannot do with their own money. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean that creating a rule for it will prevent it. It just makes it slightly more difficult to do.

And I'd also like to be the first to point out that there is usually no difference between the level of play in a friendlies match and a tournament match other than the perceived tension attached the particular set. Just because people "feel like" two people aren't playing a truly great match just because they're aware of a split is absolutely INSANE.

The idea that people will go to such lengths to attempt to control free will is mind blowing.

 

[Poltergust]

You do know that these infractions have nothing to do with money, right? Actually, it was because of money that these problems have come about; people have twisted the meaning of a tournament to being simply a money-making scheme instead of a competition of skill.

This is why we have these infractions in play. We really do not care what you do with your money as long as you play at 100% when the time calls for it. That is the entire point of participating in a tournament; money is just an incentive to play at your best.

By the way, unless it's incredibly obvious (like publicly saying that they split or playing "reverse mains" in GFs), people usually wouldn't issue an infraction. It's not like we're against the top players or anything. I doubt someone would call someone out on this without some proper justification.

 

[chaddd]

You do know that these infractions have nothing to do with money, right? Actually, it was because of money that these problems have come about; people have twisted the meaning of a tournament to being simply a money-making scheme instead of a competition of skill.

This is why we have these infractions in play. We really do not care what you do with your money as long as you play at 100% when the time calls for it. That is the entire point of participating in a tournament; money is just an incentive to play at your best.

By the way, unless it's incredibly obvious (like publicly saying that they split or playing "reverse mains" in GFs), people usually wouldn't issue an infraction. It's not like we're against the top players or anything. I doubt someone would call someone out on this without some proper justification.

A tournament IS about money. It's a fun way to make it, but money is definitely why I've driven so far and practiced so much. It still makes it a competition of skill if I'm able to win that money.

And as for the discretion, I wouldn't be so sure. Justin Wong was issued a Yellow Card for Marvel 3 because he ran Phoenix point a few games, even though he was clearly trying to win with his tournament team after the fact.

Also the cards have everything to do with money if they state that someone can no longer split the money amongst the top players evenly because they feel "cheated" out of a "better" finals.

I'd also like to point out that that's clearly your opinion on tournaments. It's about many different things to many different people, not just a display of skill. And making some stupid rule about "playing your hardest" for the benefit of a bunch of people who couldn't beat you is pointless. People are going to do what they want, and no amount of rules or regulations is going to change that.

 

[Poltergust]

I'm not a TO, but I think I can speak for most of them when I say that they create tournaments so that the most skillful player can be determined, not to just give out money to people. Money is simply a reward for being the best player, and that's all that it should be. Maybe the players do not think the same way (which is a shame, really), but I'm sure that most TOs think along the same line.

Also, this kind of thing provides no benefit to the players that lose. Why should it? They lost, so now they don't matter for the tournament anymore. What does matter, though, is the spirit of competition that should run throughout the whole tournament. When you enter a tournament, you are expected to play at your best at all times (and paying money to enter is sort of like signing a contract to do so). Not doing so would ruin the point of the tournament. How can one accurately judge who is the best player without every player trying their hardest to win? That's the reason why this infraction system was put up in the first place, to get everyone to do their best in all their tournament matches.

I'm not going to comment on Justin Wong. I'm not part of a MvC3 community (yet), so I have no right to say anything about a game I barely know about.

 

[DewDaDash]

imo the rule holds merit. Without the rule it makes it easier to manipulate brackets and forfeit and such skewing tourney results. If player X plays player Y and they are friends but normally X beats Y but can't beat player z whether it be in pools or next round in brackets, then he'd forfeit to Y in exchange for a split. It's not really fair to others to get screwed out of pools or bracket because of something like such. Although, the split in which it was enforced imo was silly just because anti asked about the split previously and the TO didnt do anything about it until after the tourney when rules of such weren't posted but made afterwards.

Sure if they are quiet about it then the rule is void, but lets face it, most of the ppl here are kids and can't keep their mouth shut

 

[Umby]

I can't say I like this rule. It just goes against general principle to withhold money, of all things, from top placing players just because they want to split or whatever. Money is not a "reward given to the best player" - it's a reward given to those who place high enough to earn it, not necessarily reflecting who is the best player. I understand the concept or "spirit" of competition and tournament events, but money is too much of an incentive for EVERY good player to really care about "showing they're the best" 100% of the time, especially when you place very well at a variety of tournaments, enough to be notable.

I'm not a TO, but I think I can speak for most of them when I say that they create tournaments so that the most skillful player can be determined, not to just give out money to people.

While we're on the topic of money as an incentive, I think it's important to note that keeping money from top placers looks especially bad on a TO, as they also have the potential incentive for making money from hosting the tournament. Of course they don't want to host just to give money to people - that's what they're selling. That's the incentive they're offering. There's no way to speak for every TO, but at a large event, it's just really hard for me to imagine that a TO goes through what is sometimes MONTHS of trouble and gathering resources for a small "thrill" like seeing who the best player is that comes through their tournament. They're hosting it either for fun (outside of competition, tournaments are just plain fun to be at in general and the challenge of hosting has some self-rewards itself), some brand of fame ("Hey, that guy hosted a great tournament last time! If he hosted another one, I'd attend!"), or money, which piggybacks off the previous reason (If people liked your previous event, they might be able to get more people to come for the next one, netting you more money). Regardless of their reasoning, TOs are running a short-term business and they're offering prize money to influence players to attend.

Aside from that, how can someone dictate how someone decides to play? These people came to YOUR event. YOU'RE the host. YOU'RE supposed to set up entertainment and accommodation for THEM. Not the other way around. Forcing someone to play to your ideal fashion (outside of standard game rules) is just a bit selfish and just as undermining as people who want manipulate brackets. You have no valid criteria in which to judge whether someone is playing with the intent to lose anyway unless you can read their minds.

 

[chaddd]

It's along the same lines as game manufacturers making it illegal to modify their systems. Once someone has the right to something you can't tell them how they can handle it.

And tournaments are not about determining "who's better". That's a pretty naive idea that seems to be adopted only by inexperienced players. I've been playing in tournaments for almost 11 years now and I can tell you for a fact that tournaments much less a determination of who "the best" is and much more a situational representation of the outcome of a few high level matches.

Because someone wins a tournament, playing their hardest or not, it does not mean they are "the best'. It simply means they were able to come out on top in that one instance.

My point is that you can't make a rule to control something that simply can't be controlled. Based on this rule you could be having a rough day or week, and have it seriously affect your playing, but if the TO thinks that you lost to your friend because you were "sandbagging" then he can penalize you because he felt that you should have won.

It won't cause any changes in tournament behavior aside from tournament directors and less capable players reading into match outcomes way too hard.

I for one will always split with my friends simply because I value friendship and mutual monetary gain much more than a stupid video game tournament or the opinions of a bunch of whiny gamers.

 

[Player-1]

ADHD, the whole point of this ordeal is not to tell you what you do with your money. Once the money is yours, you can do whatever you want with it, and nobody will care. What we want is for the purpose of the tournament to legitimately be served, in this case, being to test the ability to win in the game of Super Smash Bros. Brawl under the given set of rules. As long as you earn your placing legitimately, then nobody will mind.

What we don't want to see is this:
-Oh well we don't have to take this match seriously because I'm gonna give you half of the money regardless. Let's just goof off.

-Okay so top 3 make it into pools? Well I'm first seed, I'll give you a free win so that you can make it to at least 3rd.

-Okay so ADHD is in GFs right now, I know that since I'm M2K, I can't beat ADHD, so I'll lose on purpose (sandbag or forfeit) to Ally in LF so that he can beat ADHD and split his 1st prize earnings with me.

We don't want any of those examples to happen because they manipulate brackets outside of the means of the game Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Placings are not earned based on wins/losses that are legitimately earned, they are won based on friendships and agreements outside of the game, which goes against the entire purpose of the tournament.

If you plan on splitting your money with someone, here is what you can do to make everybody not care:

1. Play your matches fair and square. None of this sandbagging or forfeiting non-sense. It's not that hard.

It's disrespectful to the tournament organizer, the staff, and the others that want to watch. Any hype that ever existed for Ally vs. M2K (note: there are people that still want to see that, believe it or not) will be killed if they both decided to play Jigglypuff throughout the whole set because they were gonna split at GF and make money anyways. The intent of splitting in that case was a deal made before hand, and affected the very top of the bracket, which is unacceptable because winning or losing didn't matter to them, and thus, it is anti-competitive.

Aaaand that's all you have to do. Play your matches legitimately, and earn your placing.

Here is a quote from one of the BBR-RC members


edit: Actually, I don't think he is a BBR-RC member, but he's an admin and said pretty much what the BBR-RC were saying, I just found this quote the fastest before another member's quote
edit2: Also, chadd, I know it's not really the point to the thread but just an FYI, to my understanding this is the BRAWL unity ruleset which doesn't apply to melee which is what you do, right? So you can still split with your friends all you want for melee.

 

[Sandtru27]

it's pretty pathetic that this is even being thought of and implemented (?)

the whole point of a tournament is the money and gaining that money by w/e means (splitting, forfeiting to friends, playing "gay", etc.)

determining the most skilled player is sometimes a byproduct but more often irrelevant to anything but the spectator (who doesn't matter in smash since it has fallen so out of the spotlight for any kind of sponsor/outside money)

 

[chaddd]

Here is a quote from one of the BBR-RC members


edit: Actually, I don't think he is a BBR-RC member, but he's an admin and said pretty much what the BBR-RC were saying, I just found this quote the fastest before another member's quote
edit2: Also, chadd, I know it's not really the point to the thread but just an FYI, to my understanding this is the BRAWL unity ruleset which doesn't apply to melee which is what you do, right? So you can still split with your friends all you want for melee.

I know that it currently is only something that took place in the Brawl community, but I'm discussing it more in a general sense. It also happened in Marvel 3 and is actually a pretty re-occurring joke in that community already.

I'm not trying to complain or argue about the general rule set itself as much as I am simply trying to demonstrate how it's a rule that will never have any actual application. At most all it will do is prevent people who are splitting from picking crappy characters and messing around because they'll have to appear as though they're playing their hardest.

 

[rhan]

It's all a bunch of bullshyyt.

 

[-Ran]

The appearance is all that matters. It's hard to sell sponsors on a game, if people aren't trying towards the end or are vocally manipulating the bracket. If people keep everything under the table, the game is going to become better for it.

 

[Player-1]

I like the fact that the BBR-RC is trying to do something about splitting, forfeiting, sandbagging, etc., but I do agree this is a very primitive rule ATM. But why should it not be? It JUST came out, it'll take time to get it more efficient. There are easy loopholes in some of the cases (for example "accidentally pausing"), but hopefully it will grow to be better. I think it's better than nothing since there wasn't any real system or anything before this. The BBR-RC is doing this by a case by case basis, much like a trial in the U.S. court system and the TO has to report the issue in the first place to them.

Also, to make things more clear. The yellow card/red card infraction system is pretty legit IMO. There was already a rule that these types of things weren't allowed. The OP didn't really say anything to bash on the system itself (not sure if you like the actual system itself or just the rule that it condones), just the rule (that is of splitting and forfeiting, etc.) that was already in place that the system oversees. ADHD, M2K, and Anti all broke the rule at KTAR5 (before the system was in place) and the rule stated that the TO could punish however they see fit and pretty much came up with this system.

 

[WindMajor]

I'm not an admin or a BBR-RC member.

...buuuuuut I did come here carrying a link to this good read I recently stumbled upon: http://shoryuken.com/forum/threads/draw-this.1818/

It's long, but the man explained everything better than I did.

 

[Umby]

I'm not an admin or a BBR-RC member.

...buuuuuut I did come here carrying a link to this good read I recently stumbled upon: http://shoryuken.com/forum/threads/draw-this.1818/

It's long, but the man explained everything better than I did.

http://shoryuken.com/forum/threads/draw-this.1818/#post-176005

I like this post.

 

[chaddd]

I'm not an admin or a BBR-RC member.

...buuuuuut I did come here carrying a link to this good read I recently stumbled upon: http://shoryuken.com/forum/threads/draw-this.1818/

It's long, but the man explained everything better than I did.

It's a detailed post but all it does is continue this ridiculous attitude of entitlement from the majority of community members. I will continually fail to see how top players owe any of the other players anything simply because they won.

All the players that "come to see the show" are simply creating expectations for people they don't even know. Deciding that it's an "insult" that two people don't feel like playing their hardest because they've decided to split is clearly the result of this. The real insult is deciding that two players who's skill has put them in the position to be able negotiate a split HAVE to play in a way that the community feels is appropriate.

The worst part about this rule is simply that it doesn't happen very often. Most big tournaments the top players won't be good friends and they will be forced to play it out. But to punish two people who simply want their friends to benefit because they have the skill to do so is a joke.

The rule is a joke, the attitude that players shouldn't be allowed to split is a joke, and it will continue no matter what kind of "rules" people dream up to try and stop it. The only thing that will change from this point on will be that players will no longer be aware of two people sandbagging in the finals, because it will have to be kept secret.

And the fact that this will be sufficient to make all the players who are complaining feel better, and that they won't know the difference, says everything it needs to about the rule itself.

 

[chaddd]

And I got an infraction for censor dodging? CENSOR DODGING?

Since when is **** a cuss word? And furthermore, **** all this bull**** about not being able to cuss. First of all, this is why most other communities think we're such a joke with a bunch of little kids as members. Second, anyone that's upset by so called curse words doesn't even know why they're upset by them. They just have been for as long as they can remember. I refuse to believe the idea that a certain set of syllables should upset me if put in a certain order. That **** is a joke.

**** **** ***** *** damn **** *****.

Now THAT'S censor dodging. Maybe if your language censor wasn't so ****ty it wouldn't be a problem.

 

[Player-1]

Yeah twinkie I always say mods=admins because for every other forum i've ever been on admins have had red names so I always get that confused here =/

 

[-ACE-]

It's along the same lines as game manufacturers making it illegal to modify their systems. Once someone has the right to something you can't tell them how they can handle it.

And tournaments are not about determining "who's better". That's a pretty naive idea that seems to be adopted only by inexperienced players. I've been playing in tournaments for almost 11 years now and I can tell you for a fact that tournaments much less a determination of who "the best" is and much more a situational representation of the outcome of a few high level matches.

Because someone wins a tournament, playing their hardest or not, it does not mean they are "the best'. It simply means they were able to come out on top in that one instance.

My point is that you can't make a rule to control something that simply can't be controlled. Based on this rule you could be having a rough day or week, and have it seriously affect your playing, but if the TO thinks that you lost to your friend because you were "sandbagging" then he can penalize you because he felt that you should have won.

It won't cause any changes in tournament behavior aside from tournament directors and less capable players reading into match outcomes way too hard.

I for one will always split with my friends simply because I value friendship and mutual monetary gain much more than a stupid video game tournament or the opinions of a bunch of whiny gamers.

I pretty much agree with everything chaddd says LOL. This is why weed should be legal. You're not stopping ****.

The censoring on this site is complete ********* anyway. Goddamn is not censored rofl.

 

[chaddd]

I pretty much agree with everything chaddd says LOL. This is why weed should be legal. You're not stopping shit.

The censoring on this site is complete horseshit anyway. Goddamn is not censored rofl.

Really? I didn't know that. I'm going to use that all the time from now on. I mean.

I'm going to goddamn use goddamn all the goddamn time. Goddamn.

 

[0Room]

To be honest I think you're ignoring the larger community to indulge the feelings and freedoms of the individual.
What you're trying to do is benefit a small group of people, some of whom agree with this rule [read: request] and some of whom who don't, and in doing so saying that the community of people who have formed this entire set of tournaments and tournament scene doesn't matter.

The biggest problem is that we have 2 separate, but dependent worlds going on here.

The first is the community as a whole, and to be honest, money, as we've said, is an incentive, but its not as big of an incentive as you all think. At least to this world.
This world is the general populace, the 95% of people who haven't won a tournament, nor will anytime soon, those whom enjoy going for the community, the pros, and the chance to get better. They travel long hours, go across states, and eventually end up in a room full of people they don't really know but look forward to playing anyway.
These people are those whom need this rule, because they need that reason to go: They need to see that pro play this pro, or meet their hero. They want to see the echelons of skill, the ability of what they will one day be able to accomplish. This is the final prize, not money. Not for these people, anyway.

The second world is much smaller, and that's the one we're talking about now.
These are the pros, the ones who win the tournaments, those who get to the finals and win the big bucks. As we've established, most people in this world know each other, they've seen each other, they've played each other. They know how, basically, this is going to end. I think the best explanation of this would be Chu and Azen. ChuDat plays ICs, we all know this. Azen decided to eventually go CF, and continuously beat ChuDat almost every time. Rather than losing to another person so that they can beat Azen, Chudat decided to go and play Pikachu, to beat Azen's CF.
It's this kind of competition, this drive, that the first world goes to tournaments for. Without this kind of drive, there will be no kinds of tournaments like this. Without this world, there would be no tournaments.
And these are the ones who are trying to be penalized for splitting, by the other world. But regardless of what you think of the rule, you have to understand why it's there. If there is no drive, no reason to get better, no powerful, impressive fights in the finals, eventually the first world will stop coming to tournaments. They need to see the potential, they need to see what they could do, and when the pros just **** around in tournament, they won't feel that drive to get better and continue playing.

And just what does that mean?
Well, without the first world, there will be no second. The normal people make the money. Where do you think the pros get the money for winning? Without the normal populace, there would be no pros to make money. And without pros, there would be no populace.

So as you see, there has to be a rule. It doesn't have to be that strong, but needs to be a struggle. There needs to be a fight. Because without it, the community as whole will suffer and eventually die. So you may disagree with the implication, but you have to understand the reason.

 

[Purple]

I pretty much agree with everything chaddd says LOL. This is why weed should be legal. You're not stopping

The censoring on this site is complete anyway. Goddamn is not censored rofl.

:notabullet:

lolololol

I think we're on the right track personally. :X

 

[Anomic_Punk]

IMO: trying to tell people what they can and cannot do in a tournament as far as splitting, etc is dumb. I'm a TO myself, and my series is pretty big. I've never tried to tell people they can't split, of COURSE we'd rather see a hard fought battle... but that doesn't change the fact that its completely up to the players.

 

[Purple]

Hmm...

I think if a tournament actually benefits based on the competitive aspect of said tournament, they should be allowed that rule.

For example. MLG makes money off the videos they show of people playing their *** off and showcasing high level competition. Us fooling around directly affects their income, which indirectly affects our income (considering the **** we get is sponsored money, not money based off of entrants).

So yeah, in MLG events, or EVO events, I would never imagine someone tying or w/e.

Other tournaments that aren't sponsored? Where it's your own money? ****, do what you want.

 

[Black Mantis]

0Room too good

 

[chaddd]

Snip

So what you're saying based on your very first statement is that the opinions of a bunch of people willing to be crybabies should be valued higher than someone's individual freedom? Allow me to be the first to tell you how insane that is.

Also, you're completely ignoring that the rule DOESN'T WORK. There's no way to implement it thus there's no reason for it at all.

I'd like to also point out that in your example ChuDat could have been penalized for picking Pikachu if he had lost just as Azen could have been penalized for losing with Falcon based on this new rule.

And everything that you said is coveted by the players who don't typically win can be achieved WITHOUT seeing something cool in Grand Finals.

Now here's where I'd really like to stress my point. Based on this rule, someone can be DQ'd for JUST HAVING A BAD DAY if they happen to be friends with their opponent and the judge is a douche.

And lastly, and most importantly, as of lately, the best and most epic matches stem from true rivalries of different regions and countries, not just who ends up in top 3 or 5 or whoever's being paid out. The majority of tournaments have the biggest and most amazing matches happen in the middle of the brackets, and most people are just too lazy or preoccupied to watch them.

As a matter of fact, almost every Top 3 match for the last few years has been so boring it's made me want to go to sleep. Jigglypuff dittos? Peach vs Jigglypuff? I would RATHER those players decide to split and play different characters than watch that trash. But unfortunately if they were to pick any other characters then they would be called for sandbagging, so under the stupid rule they would be more likely to provide us with a boring campfest of a match. Hu-goddamn-rray.

EDIT: I'd also like to say that I vehemently refuse to accept your idea that anyone who's ever won money at a big Smash event agrees with the idea there should be a rule preventing them from doing what they please with the money they have won. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd are all guaranteed money. Like it or not, those players still have to work and play their best to get to those positions, so what they do from that point on is completely up to them.

IMO: trying to tell people what they can and cannot do in a tournament as far as splitting, etc is dumb. I'm a TO myself, and my series is pretty big. I've never tried to tell people they can't split, of COURSE we'd rather see a hard fought battle... but that doesn't change the fact that its completely up to the players.

Freedom.

Most top ranked matches won't even want to split. More often than not it's someone they've wanted to prove they can beat for a long time. The rule simply penalizes people for being friends under the claim that it's some ongoing conspiracy.

 

[Purple]

lol @ grand finals being the only hype match in history

 

[chaddd]

lol @ grand finals being the only hype match in history

I know, right?

And only when it's those people's "mains".

I have to be honest nothing pisses me off more than when I decide in my off time that I'm going to pick up a new character seriously, and then when I go to a tournament people actually GET MAD AT ME because they claim if I'm not playing them with Ganondorf then I'm sandbagging them. It's insulting to me to assume I could never be as capable with another character simply based on what a bunch of scrubs think of me. And according to this pretty rapidly spreading rule that could also cause me to get DQ'd if the TO felt that my character choice wasn't as reputable as I feel it is.

 

[-ACE-]

Can someone link me to this new rule? I mean I've heard enough to understand it but I still haven't read it. It sorta sounds like something an individual's sponsor might try to implement, but that would mean you're getting paid so that's a different story. So far it sounds stupid as ****.

 

[0Room]

Clearly you were reading, but not paying attention to what I had to say.


First

I'd like to also point out that in your example ChuDat could have been penalized for picking Pikachu if he had lost just as Azen could have been penalized for losing with Falcon based on this new rule.

They actually had sets, it wasn't on matches. It wasn't like after the first match he could have switched, even though he COULD HAVE under the tournament legal rules. And also, the important part is that they tried to play as well as possible versus each other. Neither of them "gave up".

EDIT: I'd also like to say that I vehemently refuse to accept your idea that anyone who's ever won money at a big Smash event agrees with the idea there should be a rule preventing them from doing what they please with the money they have won.

I never said that.
Never.
I SPECIFICALLY said

What you're trying to do is benefit a small group of people, some of whom agree with this rule [read: request] and some of whom who don't

As you said yourself

Most top ranked matches won't even want to split. More often than not it's someone they've wanted to prove they can beat for a long time.

I personally don't believe in the rule but I understand the reasons behind it.
I don't think it's going to be as big of a "big brother" thing as you do.

I'm just trying to help you understand what you're doing.
You're having a frustrated, angry response over something that you view is unfair, and that is your opinion as to why it's unfair. Having an opinion about something isn't a bad thing, and encouraged. But instead of having a temper tantrum about something you don't like, come up with alternate responses to this. You're talking about a "bunch of whiny kids", when you're doing the same thing on the opposite side. You're complaining about how they're "unjustly violating your rights", so to speak, when they're not violating them at all. You forget that these people are people too, and they can tell when it's a violating response and when its not. I agree that Justin Wong was unjustly yellow carded, but its fairly clear when people are sandbagging or not in tournament, especially when it comes to "splitting" or whatever we're calling it nowadays.

Rather than trying to shut down the freedom of people, they're simply trying to help the community get what they came for.

Getting angry and refusing to listen to people's arguments isn't going to resolve the issue.

 

[MarsFool!]

Shut up 0room. Its pretty clear youve never been in GF. This **** is outrageous atthe very minimum. People didnt come to see a god damn show, they came to improve and PLAY against the best players. Watching a high level match well beyond your skill level usually doesnt help people improve if they dont understand the finer points of metagame anyway.

 

[Umby]

I'm pretty sure we all understand the reason WHY the rule tries to exist. Those of us against it have just been saying it's pointless/dumb/unjust/etc. The rule itself has too many subjective terms to be any kind of fair and precedence shows that only really would need consideration in a select number of specific cases that mostly happen during the end of the tournament. I don't think we could come up with that reasoning without understanding the premises behind the rule we're so adamantly opposed to.

Also Mars, I love you for bringing up a point that I keep forgetting to bring up. D:

 

[chaddd]

Can someone link me to this new rule? I mean I've heard enough to understand it but I still haven't read it. It sorta sounds like something an individual's sponsor might try to implement, but that would mean you're getting paid so that's a different story. So far it sounds stupid as ****.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=12763560

There you are, sir.

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuh

Don't pick my posts apart like that, it's the quickest way to make sure I have no interest in what you have to say.

But first, you could explain how saying "some of whom agree and some don't" when discussing the 5% of pros is not saying that some pros agree with the rule.

Second, I have no problem understanding you so do us both a favor and don't pretend like you can condescend to me.

Third, I AM NOT ANGRY. Nor am I having a "temper tantrum", touching again on how you feel the need to condescend to me. You call it complaining when I'm clearly just opening the subject up for debate. Just because you don't agree with how I talk doesn't mean you can make all these assumptions about my viewpoint. There is NO WAY for you come to that conclusion through anything other than assumptions. Just because I use colorful language and like to thoroughly defend my point doesn't mean that I have any emotion invested in this situation AT ALL.

Fourth, how do you know Chu and Azen were playing their hardest? Did you talk to them about that specific match? Do you hold the ability to read their mind? Because clearly the conclusion you've drawn about that situation is based purely on SPECULATION which is the blatant flaw with this rule you claim to understand.

Lastly, those people who are "people too" are the only group of people trying to make idiotic rules that are impossible to enforce just so that they can feel better. That's the worst of it. It serves no purpose but to make them feel better. It's also ridiculous how you feel that keeping a bunch of people happy makes it okay to tell people who they can and cannot split with.

Players do NOT owe anything to other players simply because they hold the capability to win. Plain and simple.

EDIT: I do find it laughable, however, that you would suggest that the players agreeing with this rule have every right to complain about top players splitting while in the same breath trying to fault me for "complaining" about it being unfair. So they can make rules to appease other players doing things that they find disappointing and anyone that disagrees should just feel like a hypocrite because they're not the only one's with an opinion on the subject. Cool.

Shut up 0room. Its pretty clear youve never been in GF. This **** is outrageous atthe very minimum. People didnt come to see a god damn show, they came to improve and PLAY against the best players. Watching a high level match well beyond your skill level usually doesnt help people improve if they dont understand the finer points of metagame anyway.

/thread

There is no reason for this rule other than to create better Youtube Videos. It simply creates many more unfair situations than it "fixes", not that there's anything at all wrong with splitting.

Someone has a bad day and the judge doesn't like it? How about a 6 month ban from the tournament series?

Someone tries to try out a new character they've been working on after losing a match in the set causing them to lose anyway and the judge doesn't like it? 6 month ban.

Someone jokes about splitting before a match that they lose when the judge feels like they should have won? COLLUSION. 6 MONTH BAN.

I think you see my point. All it does is create more pressure on top players, something that already exists, and something that less capable players wouldn't know anything about. Not only that, but under this rule top players would have to get their strategy choices okay'd by the general populous just to make sure they wouldn't get DQ'd in the event of a loss due to over-speculation from a bunch of people who weren't able to win themselves. It would be pretty awesome to get knocked into loser's bracket by someone and then subsequently be DQ'd because I didn't pick the character everyone "felt" I should have picked.

Not only that, but if this rule is used then judges will then have to make outright assumptions about whether or not two people are trying to split since they know it will have to be kept secret from them.

 

[Purple]

Didn't ken and chudat do some **** to m2k to make it so he wouldn't be in the money for a tournament back in MLG too?

I can't exactly vouch for that but i remember hearing that.

 

[0Room]

You're right I have been condescending and I apologize for that.

Let me reexplain what I'm trying to say.

I said "temper tantrum" because, as you said, you're opening the topic up for discussion. However, we can both agree that this is a problem. At the same time though, a big part about discussing problems is discussing solutions. So far, unless I've missed it, I haven't seen any solutions for the problem.

Or maybe the only thing you find a problem is, is the cards.
In which case, I mean to say, what are any proposed solutions for the reasons behind the cards [i.e., intentional bracket manipulation]?
These cards have come up because this has become a problem in some circles, and some members don't want it to become a bigger problem. So they have taken steps to do something about it. Whether you agree with what they did or not, you have to see that, at least.

As far as your concerns with the cards, I seriously doubt that, as you said "you can get a card just for playing bad on one day", for two reasons. There is a clear, defined difference of when people are playing badly, and when you're sandbagging, especially if you can see the player. Signs of playing badly are frustration, shaking the head, getting angry, etc. Also, in game, flubbed techs, stupid decisions [mostly being too aggressive] and generally continuing to try, although badly. Sandbagging is the opposite. They appear bored, look around the room, etc. In game, their character stands a lot, goofs off, intentionally suicides, stuff like that. That is a clear distinction for anyone who's looking for that, and anyone watching a match would be able to pick that up.
Also, the reason that pros [which is mostly who we're talking about] are pros is because they don't have bad days. Or, at least in the way we think of them. The old saying comes up about "amateurs practice until they get it right, professionals practice until they don't get it wrong." Yes, they are human and they mess up techs and stuff like that, but not to the same extent that a lesser player would. That's when the experience and talent of being a pro steps in.

Shut up 0room. Its pretty clear youve never been in GF. This **** is outrageous atthe very minimum. People didnt come to see a god damn show, they came to improve and PLAY against the best players. Watching a high level match well beyond your skill level usually doesnt help people improve if they dont understand the finer points of metagame anyway.

I would have to disagree. I have been in a few GFs myself. They haven't been large, national tournaments and I'm nowhere near the pro status, but I have to say that I learn a lot from watching high level matches. What I've learned has changed, but I promise you that I still learn something.

Also, your statement seems to have a bit of a flaw:
"They come to play the best players. They wouldn't learn if they didn't understand the finer points of the metagame anyway."







Well then why are they there to play them anyway?
I've been on the low end of the skill spectrum for a long time, first as my own skill level and then as a teacher, and I understand that they come to watch and play, but that they're much more comfortable watching. Firstly because of the amount of people who come to play the pros, and secondly because they know they wouldn't be able to do anything against them.
If you wanna separate it into group goals you have

Low- Wants to come and play, but mostly watch. They're unsure of their skill level and play a little bit, but after getting ***** for a few hours they're done.
Middle- Play as many people as possible. Perhaps get through their pools/bracket, but rarely get far, and are mostly focused on improving.
High- Play as many people as possible on a high level as possible. Go one on one with a pro for a long time, try to break down matches into sections and understand them.
Pro- Win.

As far as pro psych I'm not sure yet but that's the basic ideas as far as I've observed.
/psych rant



Anyway
back on topic

tl;dr
I don't believe your concerns are going to be realized, you have to understand that they're taking steps to fix what they view as a problem.
There are no clearly defined alternate solutions to fix the problem coming from here as far as I've seen, be sure to point them out if I overlooked them.
If you don't view it as a problem and it becomes a problem, what would you have the community do and react with?
It's easy to tell the difference between sandbagging individuals and people playing badly because they're having a bad day.

Uh I think that's it. If I have anything else to add I will add it.

 

[Linguini]

Fvcking ridiculous......I can't believe any tournaments are even making the switch to this ruleset, simply due because of the fact that those who created it are part of the "all knowing" back room/mods who apparently make the best decisions.

This isn't throwing a fight......it's splitting and variable change


we humans

 

[Poltergust]

^Red cards are also issued for fights that break out. Speaking of red cards, chaddd, I don't believe that they'll last for more than two months max, so please try not to exaggerate the duration of a ban.

I suppose people have different takes on splitting. I find it completely anti-competitive, but you seem fine with it, so I'll just agree to disagree there.

EDIT: @Linguini, the Unity Ruleset was created by the most prominent tournament organizers, so naturally their tournaments and many others will implement it.