What is Sakurai's Criteria and his Uniqueness Philosophy Exactly About?

[BluePikmin11]

I was originally going to make a very long post about how I think newcomers are chosen, but I'm probably going to save that for another post (or potentially a new thread) due to being really busy with personal stuff for the moment.

People have been debating recently from topics like how "X" character contradicts one part Sakurai's criteria to how the clones or certain newcomers contradict Sakurai's comments about uniqueness to finding out if there are hidden specifics in the criteria that could potentially boil down a character's chances.

This is the thread where you can discuss your thoughts on that subject and what you think the steps are into Sakurai's criteria. I want to know what the Smashboards community here thinks how Sakurai's criteria and his uniqueness philosophy works. Long well-written posts are appreciated.

 

[Argos]

Who knows. Sakurai is a person just like anyone else, and one in the charge of an incredibly large and complicated operation. There are so many factors involved including pressure from highers up, input from people working with him, and personal idiosyncrasies of taste and judgement to create a simple one-size-fits-all criteria that explains all his decision, and trying to adapt an Straussian esotericist reading of his choices is probably ill-advised. That said, I think that as a game designer Sakurai is of course going to be excited by the prospect to incorporate some interesting new gameplay mechanics, and may prioritize characters which interest him the most in those ways.

The clones are really a fluke, I think, and shouldn't be leaned on too heavily to form arguments about stuff like this. They were originally meant to be alts and were added at the last minute to help pad out the roster when they were decided to be different enough to potentially mess with stats and such. The character creation process is dynamic, and the priorities at the end of development are going to be way different from the priorities at the beginning of development.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Going to save this extra post incase I make a criteria and philosophy.

 

[Burruni]

Well, there's a matter of who is initially chosen for the roster and what adjustments are made come later on in the project, and this has been clear from the start.

was implemented because it was a low-work character off of the same base and floatiness of . The right Pokemon in the right place, so to speak, to be highlighted in this time of development. It's fairly common knowledge that and were originally planned to be part of the roster, but adjustments came later on and gave us our Original 12.

Melee is one of the worst victims of this, giving us six varying clone fighters. Ganondorf and Falco were chosen due to being able to be converted from a previous character's moveset and importance to their series. Pichu was chosen to be a joke, and Roy to promote the upcoming Fire Emblem 6. Doc and Young Link found a way in at this time, but it is clear that when we have creative choices like and /, that there was a cause for these six to be "rushed," in.

For Brawl, we have our Forbidden 7, two major delays to put things together, and the fact that was one of the last characters to be implemented that proves that some kind of noticable change had to happen in roster production.

in comparison to say was phrased by Sakurai himself as being "treats" being ascended to character status, like desserts to a meal. Meaning at least these three were not originally planned, and recent data proves that there were some characters and stages planned for this game that had yet to surface.

Trying to define his criteria is an issue because of the roster and choices around it changing, to varying extents, across the span of each project and has to be considered with loose terms as much as we may wish to narrow it down to a science.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I certainly don't think there is a rubric for anything that he does; I'm certain that he does not look at a character and decide "Well, I cannot add him because it would go against why I did not add her."I legitimately think that Sakurai does not just look at a character and go, "what does this offer me," but rather, that he looks at a character and goes, "what is it that I can offer this character, if included?" He is a dedicated and true artist, and attempting to codify his history is a false endeavor, because creativity is a living, breathing, essence. This last clause is crucial, because many use this to make Sakurai seem an enigma, when really he is just a creator.
I think that we were strictly given his interpretation of what is important regarding character choices, in a four point summation, years ago; his lack of strict adherence to this is because there are always exceptions. To sum up generalities, and this list may update in future endeavors, I believe the following are important to Sakurai, regarding character selection.

• Important to gaming history; as an avid gamer from a young age, Sakurai wants to do right by his entire field.
• Defined in some way by Nintendo (or vice versa, that somehow helped define Nintendo); that the history of character and his franchise would not be accurately told if not describing Nintendo (or vice versa, that Nintendo's history would not be accurately recanted if not in relation to said character and franchise).
• Notable within their series; again, the history of the series requires the mentioning of this character.
• The character acts as a muse. This is a tricky one; ultimately, I think source material must be inspiring to Sakurai- sometimes, just the sheer gravitas of a character can do this (Mario, Sonic). Other times, I believe the character's art may do it (Greninja). I personally think the best examples come from the characters who inspire new inspiration for the franchise they are from as a whole, the ones who "bring the essence" of the source game (Pokemon Trainer, Robin).
• Another accessible creator or owner of the character is accessible for consultation. I believe Sakurai wishes no disrespect to any character, and assures himself that he can go to another source to run ideas off of; unfortunately, I believe this to be the downfall of some (K Rool), who have no current company accountable for their depiction.
• Character satisfies all of the given notions, and can be implemented without hindering Sakurai's vision of the character. This applies to characters who are not included, as far as we know (Ice Climbers, Ridley, Pacman [Brawl], Villager [Brawl].)

Now that I look at the list, it seems my first points fall into HISTORY, and the latter into CREATIVE.
I'm sure in time, as I stated, this list will be updated.

 

[BKupa666]

 

[KoM]

Personal bias

 

[Frostwraith]

I think the characters overall can be divided into two major categories:
- Planned, full fledged characters and the ones to agree with Sakurai's criteria
- Clones, added at the last minute in development

To try to understand and make a pattern out of Sakurai's mind is obviously impossible. Everyone has their own way of thinking that only said person can understand, no matter how well they try to explain to other. Sakurai is no different in that regard.

This said, I have to very much agree with @ pupNapoleon . Sakurai is, in a way, an artist. He's a game designer and a player at the same time, so it's obvious he has the passion for his job.

He tries to balance between a wide array of factors. Not all characters get in the game through the same means:
- Characters like Mario, Luigi, Pikachu and Link are very iconic to Nintendo, so a game about Nintendo's biggest stars will obviously feature them.
- There are characters that are chosen to bring back old classics like Duck Hunt or Mr. Game & Watch. Smash is a way of bringing those characters back into the spotlight that otherwise would be forgotten. When you also have modern characters, the game gains the unique charm of uniting many generations of players in one game, which I think Sakurai aims for, especially considering how the All-Star mode is organized.
- Sometimes the character simply inspires Sakurai to implement some creative ideas. Rosalina, Bowser Jr. or Greninja are good examples of this. Rosalina and her relationship with the Lumas paved way for a dual fighter, both fighting side by side. Bowser Jr.'s Clown Car was expanded with new contraptions and crazy weapons while taking cues from the original games. Little Mac was designed with boxing rules in mind, thus not adhering to the other characters' zaniness.
- Sakurai wants to give respect to a character. If he believes he can't properly implement the character, he will pass. I think Ridley was an example of this. Same for the Ice Climbers being cut.
- I believe Sakurai looks at popular characters first when deciding a roster and see which characters spark his creative interest. Popularity helps a character being in (to differing degrees), but is no way a guarantee.

As for the clones, we have two distinct cases:
Melee clones:
- They were added purposely to expand the roster, but Sakurai still chose which would bring the most uniqueness within the constraints as well as popular choices.
- Pichu had the self-damage mechanic, inspired by the fact he can't control his own powers due to young age.
- Sakurai considers a younger version of Link important, hence Young Link. Toon Link in Brawl and SSB4 is pretty much a successor character in this regard.
- Dr. Mario was made slower and bulkier as inspired by how a lab coat is less practical in an actual fight, but he knows anatomy to hit with precision, hence the added strength. Dr. Mario is an important mark in Nintendo's history, as it was an iconic puzzle game.
- Ganondorf was made a Falcon clone thanks to body similarity. Even with this constraint, the character is fairly well portrayed, by having brutal strength and powerful attacks backed by magic power, both essential characteristics of Ganondorf's character.
- Roy was added thanks to the inherent uniqueness of a flame sword.

SSB4 clones:
- Originally meant as aesthetic changes that evolved differently as a result of development's dynamic nature. In any large scale project, the initial plan will rarely be preserved to the end. This can be a good and a bad thing, as ideas are scrapped, but likewise, other ideas are brought instead. The clones here are a case of the latter.
- Like the Melee clones, they have an inherent uniqueness that sets them apart from their counterparts.
- Lucina was born out of the idea of making a newcomer friendly version of another character. Sakurai aims the game at all sorts of players, so he thought he could work an harder to master character like Marth and make an easier version of him. In a way, this parallels the Fire Emblem fans, with the older character appealing to older, more experienced players, likewise, newer, less experienced fans have a choice with an easier to use character that they're familiar with at the same time. Perhaps, that's why Lucina was chosen to be the easier character.
- Dr. Mario is once again back because he was different in Melee, so they naturally had the idea of keeping the status quo. And with Mario being changed in Brawl thanks to FLUDD, it was also an opportunity of bringing an old moveset back to the series.
- Dark Pit's separation stems from having a few different weapons as Pit that function differently, so he has a bit of such unique flair. In a way, he's similar to Roy. They stand out by possessing different weapons, inspiring different characteristics in their moves. Roy wields a flame sword and Dark Pit has an electric Arm, as well as the sniper-like Dark Pit Staff instead of the flashy Three Sacred Treasures.

Lastly, there will always be bias. Sakurai is human and, like everyone, has differing opinions on how the characters should be portrayed. If you were in charge of the game, wouldn't you put something to satisfy your own desires? Pretty sure you would, as you would have your own vision for the game. That itself is, in a way, bias. In creativity, it's difficult to tell right and wrong, and the creator adds their own charm to their own works. This is certainly not a bad thing.

 

[ErenJager]

Nearly every new comer besides clones brought some sort of unique gimmick or mechanic with their move set to the roster.

Little Mac - K.O. metre
Bowser Jr. - Mech suit type fighter with alts
Rosalina - Gravity pulls and puppeteer.
Robin - Caster

There are some with other reasons...

Palutena personal bias.
Greninja popularity of new pokemon game/ newesy generation.

 

[JamesDNaux]

I think that people who try to speculate characters for Smash are simply looking too far into things.

Sakurai's criteria, a character's chances, why certain characters get in or don't, how some characters end up as clones, etc.

The problem is when people act as if they are or know Sakurai. We will never truly know how the man works unless he outright comes out and states the exact reasons he chose each character and how he implemented them. He could just pick characters on a personal whim, or even throw darts at a board (@ BKupa666 ) for all we know. Figuring out Sakurai's criteria won't help anyone guess characters, because Sakurai's criteria changes with each character and each game. At one time, he thought Villager had no place in Smash, yet eventually changed his mind, unknown factors in development also play a big part in what characters make it (Ice Climbers being cut, Bowser Jr. almost not making it, Mewtwo getting cut from Brawl because of Sonic's late entry). He even contradicts himself in many ways, though that can likely be attributed to his ever changing perspective. Even outside influences affect his decisions to add characters (Kojima asking for Snake, Miyamoto wanting Pac-Man and Namco developing the game).

 

[BKupa666]

What @ JamesDNaux said. He may not literally throw darts at a board, but his "strong personal criteria" are fickle to the point where he as good as throws darts from our perspective.

He looks at what characters are popular. . .and listens when he feels like it. He looks into new games' characters. . . then delves back into old ones at his leisure. He emphasizes uniqueness. . .then makes everything up for some characters while outright denying this as an option for others (Chrom). He stresses truth to character. . .except when he doesn't (Falcondorf). He'll write off characters for one game, before adding them with little issue the next (Villager, Miis, Pac-Man).

It's one thing to believe what he says, another thing to believe your personal Fanfiction version of what he says, and yet another to realize what he says and what he does are very, very different things.

 

[JamesDNaux]

What @ JamesDNaux said. He may not literally throw darts at a board, but his "strong personal criteria" are fickle to the point where he as good as throws darts from our perspective.

He looks at what characters are popular. . .and listens when he feels like it. He looks into new games' characters. . . then delves back into old ones at his leisure. He emphasizes uniqueness. . .then makes everything up for some characters while outright denying this as an option for others (Chrom). He stresses truth to character. . .except when he doesn't (Falcondorf). He'll write off characters for one game, before adding them with little issue the next (Villager, Miis, Pac-Man).

It's one thing to believe what he says, another thing to believe your personal Fanfiction version of what he says, and yet another to realize what he says and what he does are very, very different things.

Not adding Ridley because it would be "out of character" while we have Falcondorf is the single most glaring example.

If that isn't outright proof that he picks and chooses whoever for whatever reasons he pleases, then I don't know what is.

 

[ErenJager]

Keep in mind his mentality and approach to the series changes over time.

Falcondorf is in contradiction of what he says now. It may not have been back in melee. I remember a playable looking ridley in melee's intro.

Falcondorf probably just remains because its easier to port a moveset then to make a new one.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Keep in mind his mentality and approach to the series changes over time.

Falcondorf is in contradiction of what he says now. It may not have been back in melee.

This is also something I mentioned, but even then there are current contradictions within Smash 4 itself.

Rosalina using her own children as weapons is pretty out of character and doesn't match anything she actually does.

 

[ErenJager]

This is also something I mentioned, but even then there are current contradictions within Smash 4 itself.

Rosalina using her own children as weapons is pretty out of character and doesn't match anything she actually does.

What if the luma's are acting on their own free will as weapons and protecting their mother.

 

[PhantomShab]

- Sakurai wants to give respect to a character.

I'm inclined to disagree with this tbh. He gives respect to characters he personally likes, and it's very clear that bias plays a part in most of what he does with characters. Palutena has completely different moves for her customs. The time spent on that could have been spent on giving us a more respectable and faithful moveset for Ganondorf. But Sakurai would rather keep reminding us that he revived the Kid Icarus IP, than put some actual effort into Nintendo's 2nd biggest villain. The only reason Ganondorf was even in Melee was because he needed some last-minute filler for the roster. That says a lot about how much of a crap he gives about the character.

Not to mention that as far as Sakurai is concerned, any Wario games that aren't WarioWare don't exist. He even went the extra mile to replace his only non-WarioWare inspired move (his forward smash attack) from Brawl with a completely uninspired punch attack. To Sakurai, Wario isn't a greedy treasure hunter, he's a mini-game maker with "lol random humor" who farts all the time.

 

[Frostwraith]

I'm inclined to disagree with this tbh. He gives respect to characters he personally likes, and it's very clear that bias plays a part in most of what he does with characters. Palutena has completely different moves for her customs. The time spent on that could have been spent on giving us a more respectable and faithful moveset for Ganondorf. But Sakurai would rather keep reminding us that he revived the Kid Icarus IP, than put some actual effort into Nintendo's 2nd biggest villain. The only reason Ganondorf was even in Melee was because he needed some last-minute filler for he roster. That says a lot about how much of a crap he gives about the character.

Sure, Ganondorf was added as a last minute clone in Melee, but he's been fairly differentiated in Brawl and Smash 4.

He did say he didn't want to alienate people who played as him in Melee, hence why he stayed similar. He even has a few unique moves from Falcon (side B, side A, forward aerial) and plays completely differently from Falcon.

As a Ganondorf fan, I would really like to see him more unique, but I can also see why Sakurai is reluctant to change him that much. Even Bowser, who had significant changes this time, still plays similarly to previous games in the series, so previous Bowser players will still be familiarized with him this time.

Disregarding his status as a Falcon clone, you can notice he uses magic and sheer strength to back up his blows, which is true to his character, considering he's the bearer of the Triforce of Power.

Plus, I did say that everyone has biases, not just Sakurai. Notice my last paragraph.

And honestly, Ganondorf and other clones aside, you can't disagree with the fact most characters are very faithful to their games. Notable examples ought to be Mario, Link, Diddy Kong, Robin, Mega Man (who, like Palutena, has custom specials all coming from his games) and several others.

I think Sakurai could do something more unique with Ganondorf, no doubt about it, but I feel he deliberately keeps him as is to not alienate Smash veterans.

Not to mention that as far as Sakurai is concerned, any Wario games that aren't WarioWare don't exist. He even went the extra mile to replace his only non-WarioWare inspired move (his forward smash attack) from Brawl with a completely uninspired punch attack. To Sakurai, Wario isn't a greedy treasure hunter, he's a mini-game maker with "lol random humor" who farts all the time.

Well, that's because Wario in Smash is more based on the WarioWare games, which, if I recall, is a more popular series in Japan.

No matter your opinion on that, you can't deny WarioWare is far more unique than the Wario Land series. He still does retain a few moves from his platforming series, specifically Wario World. His backwards throw (forward throw in Brawl) and neutral special are inspired by moves he does in that game.

To me, it seems that he tried to find a balance between the crazy humor of WarioWare (which is very Japanese styled, I must say), while retaining the sheer strength he's known for in the Wario Land series (he's a middle-to-heavyweight character, after all), though it seems Sakurai was more inspired by the WarioWare series. Perhaps, he felt he would be a more unique character that way. I don't know, but given how Sakurai likes uniqueness, it's a plausible theory.

Did you know that Sakurai actually considered Wario being the Mario clone in Melee (instead of Dr. Mario), before ditching the idea because he thought Wario "deserved more" than being just a Mario clone?

 

[BluePikmin11]

I certainly don't think there is a rubric for anything that he does; I'm certain that he does not look at a character and decide "Well, I cannot add him because it would go against why I did not add her."I legitimately think that Sakurai does not just look at a character and go, "what does this offer me," but rather, that he looks at a character and goes, "what is it that I can offer this character, if included?" He is a dedicated and true artist, and attempting to codify his history is a false endeavor, because creativity is a living, breathing, essence. This last clause is crucial, because many use this to make Sakurai seem an enigma, when really he is just a creator.
I think that we were strictly given his interpretation of what is important regarding character choices, in a four point summation, years ago; his lack of strict adherence to this is because there are always exceptions. To sum up generalities, and this list may update in future endeavors, I believe the following are important to Sakurai, regarding character selection.

• Important to gaming history; as an avid gamer from a young age, Sakurai wants to do right by his entire field.
• Defined in some way by Nintendo (or vice versa, that somehow helped define Nintendo); that the history of character and his franchise would not be accurately told if not describing Nintendo (or vice versa, that Nintendo's history would not be accurately recanted if not in relation to said character and franchise).
• Notable within their series; again, the history of the series requires the mentioning of this character.
• The character acts as a muse. This is a tricky one; ultimately, I think source material must be inspiring to Sakurai- sometimes, just the sheer gravitas of a character can do this (Mario, Sonic). Other times, I believe the character's art may do it (Greninja). I personally think the best examples come from the characters who inspire new inspiration for the franchise they are from as a whole, the ones who "bring the essence" of the source game (Pokemon Trainer, Robin).
• Another accessible creator or owner of the character is accessible for consultation. I believe Sakurai wishes no disrespect to any character, and assures himself that he can go to another source to run ideas off of; unfortunately, I believe this to be the downfall of some (K Rool), who have no current company accountable for their depiction.
• Character satisfies all of the given notions, and can be implemented without hindering Sakurai's vision of the character. This applies to characters who are not included, as far as we know (Ice Climbers, Ridley, Pacman [Brawl], Villager [Brawl].)

Now that I look at the list, it seems my first points fall into HISTORY, and the latter into CREATIVE.
I'm sure in time, as I stated, this list will be updated.

I pretty much agree with all of your points. I'd probably add this into my criteria.
In addition, I also think a game's merits of being very-well crafted and directed is also pretty important.

That's where characters like ,, and truly shine at despite their franchises being pretty niche.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I pretty much agree with all of your points. I'd probably add this into my criteria.
In addition, I also think a game's merits of being very-well crafted and directed is also pretty important.

That's where characters like ,, and truly shine at despite their franchises being pretty niche.

I'm not really sure I can agree with that. It may come into play, but in all honesty there are a number of games then that are even moreso getting the shaft, most notably Golden Sun.
I'm fairly certain he does in fact enjoy different games than I do, and that is indeed heavily reflected in his choices.
I'm nearly positive he just doesn't like platforming games at all, and will go to any length to ignore them (Donkey Kong, Chibi Robo, changing the genre of Kid Icarus entirely).

 

[BluePikmin11]

I'm not really sure I can agree with that. It may come into play, but in all honesty there are a number of games then that are even moreso getting the shaft, most notably Golden Sun.

Golden Sun pretty much slid it's reputation down with Dark Dawn, so I'm not surprised that the franchise got the shaft despite the original GS being a well-received successful title.

I'm fairly certain he does in fact enjoy different games than I do, and that is indeed heavily reflected in his choices.
I'm nearly positive he just doesn't like platforming games at all, and will go to any length to ignore them (Donkey Kong, Chibi Robo, changing the genre of Kid Icarus entirely).

Despite developing Smash Bros. and being the creator of Kirby?
I'm not certain that is the case.

 

[PhantomShab]

Sure, Ganondorf was added as a last minute clone in Melee, but he's been fairly differentiated in Brawl and Smash 4.

I disagree. Slightly changing how his side special works just doesn't cut it for me.

He did say he didn't want to alienate people who played as him in Melee, hence why he stayed similar.

When exactly did he say that? I've seen people bring this up a lot but they never post a source. It's starting to feel like that "Ganondorf reminds me of my late father" bit.

Disregarding his status as a Falcon clone, you can notice he uses magic

I don't consider coloring Captain Falcon's fire purple to be "magic".

and sheer strength to back up his blows, which is true to his character, considering he's the bearer of the Triforce of Power.

I've seen this excuse too many times. He doesn't use the Triforce of Power to be a hulking fist fighter in the canon games. His power is mostly in his magic. I know he's physically strong, yes, but that's not the kind of "power" he put's on display 90% of the time.

And honestly, Ganondorf and other clones aside, you can't disagree with the fact most characters are very faithful to their games.

True.

I think Sakurai could do something more unique with Ganondorf, no doubt about it, but I feel he deliberately keeps him as is to not alienate Smash veterans.

I don't think it's a matter of alienating Falcondorf fans, I think it's just sheer laziness and unwillingness to care about Ganondorf on Sakurai's part. There was a thread in the Ganondorf boards a while back highlighting how unfinished and low quality Ganondorf's Smash 4 model is.That thread also made me notice that Ganondorf even shares a lot of the same facial expressions as Captain Falcon, almost like he's a literal model re-skin.

Spoiler

On Captain Falcon, expressions like that fit.

On Ganondorf...

Spoiler

Oh my goodness. That's only one of the milder stupid expression he makes in this game. Here's how bad the results of mapping his face the same way Captain Falcon's face is mapped can get. Taken right from that thread I mentioned.

Spoiler

The King of Evil, Nintendo's 2nd biggest and most well known villain, reduced to this. Look at him, he's reached Derpvana. Ganondorf easily has the stupidest and most unfitting expressions than he's ever had in Smash Brothers and the stupidest expressions of any character in Smash 4. All because his face is a re-skinned Captain Falcon's.

I'm sorry, but that is disgustingly disrespectful to the character. Anybody who hasn't played a Zelda game wouldn't even know Ganondorf was much of a threat just from looking at his portrayal in Smash 4. Not to mention how Sakurai flat out said he want's to portray Ganondorf as some slow old man who's always huffing to catch his breath, back in Brawl's old Dojo site. That's going beyond not being faithful and just flat out replacing canon with his own silly headcanon about how the character is.

Well, that's because Wario in Smash is more based on the WarioWare games, which, if I recall, is a more popular series in Japan.

But it's still just a single branch on the Wario tree.

No matter your opinion on that, you can't deny WarioWare is far more unique than the Wario Land series.

Acually, I can, since that's subjective.

Did you know that Sakurai actually considered Wario being the Mario clone in Melee (instead of Dr. Mario), before ditching the idea because he thought Wario "deserved more" than being just a Mario clone?

Yes, and that probably irks me the most. Wario is too golden and sacred but Ganondorf is shaft-getting-worthy. *sigh*

 

[pupNapoleon]

On the topic of Ganondorf...

There are simply three things I think he is in drastic need of, none of them being his sword. Project M actually added two of these, and that, to me, is why I love there Ganondorf much more.
1- Levitation. Seeing him run is blasphemous.
2- A projectile. Him not having a projectile defies his in character construction.
3- A reflect or counter. No Zelda characters have this, but Ganondorf needs it; how much time do you spend volleying back and forth with Ganondorf in each fight?

The sad thing is that none of these really alter the character too much- only a projectile. The first is aesthetic, and the last could be something he is capable of as an effect of a punch.

Golden Sun pretty much slid it's reputation down with Dark Dawn, so I'm not surprised that the franchise got the shaft despite the original GS being a well-received successful title.

Dark Dawn was considered a worse game than its two predecessors, true.
However, there is an extremely mal-corrected, ill-informed community who propogates the lie that it was a bad game.
On the contrary, it received generally high reviews across the board, averaging a B. Even its sales were nearly as low as many make it out to be.

There is this incredible misconception that it did badly and was a bad game- on the contrary. It is a series which received remarkable reviews in its first two games, and in its third, it received only 'good' reviews and sales. Naming it a 'bad' game is quite a faulty statement. Then faulting it for starting off as an incredible series is even more perplexing.

Reception

Aggregate scores
AggregatorScore
GameRankings80.72% (40 Reviews)[41]
Metacritic79% (63 Reviews)[42]
Review scores
PublicationScore
1UP.comB[43]
Edge8 out of 10[44]
Eurogamer8 out of 10 [3]
Famitsu33 out of 40[45]
GameSpot7.5 out of 10[7]
IGN7.5 out of 10[2]
Golden Sun: Dark Dawn received mostly positive reviews from critics. It achieved 79%[42] on Metacritic and 80%[41] onGameRankings. The game was not as well received as its predecessors: Golden Sun received a 91%[46] and a 90%[47] on Metacritic and GameRankings, and The Lost Age received an 86%[48] and an 87%.[49] Edge said that "despite its lack of teeth... Golden Sunremains a franchise with plenty to say."[44]

Dark Dawn's graphics, Djinn system and puzzles were generally well received. While 1UP.com felt that the battle graphics were "vivid ... [and] never [grew] tedious or overblown",[43] GameSpot said the game's "visuals have brought the 2D world of the GBA games into full 3D on the DS to good effect. The world, the characters, and especially the attacks in combat look great."[7] GamesRadar said the game's Djinn system made the game interesting enough so that "veteran RPG players [wouldn't] be bored with the gameplay".[50]Game Revolution praises the game's puzzle setting like its predecessor that "are rarely very difficult, but the sense of satisfaction you get after grabbing your elusive reward is still like crack for the exploratory player".[51] Besides, the game's encyclopedia system would allow new players to get familiar with the previous games,[7] gaming blog Kotaku said it is "extremely newbie friendly".[52]

Critics found battle too easy[43][53] and cut-scenes dialogue too long.[2][3] While Game Revolution said battle can "[use] the Djinn and subsequently summoning monsters ... pound on your enemies with attacks instead",[51] GamesRadar complains that: "Not only are the actual battles themselves easy, but your psynergy recharges so quickly that you can use it liberally in healing and battles without ever having to use a single recovery item – you never feel stretched for resources or find yourself in a tight spot."[50] 1UP.com said the game's long dialogue scene is just like its predecessors that "heroes and villains have an uncanny knack for saying incredibly simple things with about three or four times the words they actually need to convey those ideas".[43] This entry adds an emotion system, so the silent character can respond other roles, however, reviews think it is unnecessary and does not really affect plot.[53][54]

Dark Dawn sold 46,000 units in its first four days in Japan, and ranked fifth of the period.[55] In the UK, the game was 23rd best-selling Nintendo DS game in its first released weekend.[56] The game has sold 80,000 copies in Japan as of January 2012.[57]

Despite developing Smash Bros. and being the creator of Kirby?
I'm not certain that is the case.

Smash Bros isn't a platforming game. As far as Kirby, he took it on when he was young and new to the field, and then left it when he became successful enough to be more picky about his jobs. This actually further supports my argument that he does not like platforming games- he started on one because they were the big field when he was young, and left as soon as he could afford to.

Not just that, when he did return to Kirby, he did it as a racing game. His representation of Wario dismisses any platforming past. He game Mario a new move that was usable in his main story line, but a game that was NOT a platformer (FLUDD) and otherwise forgotten by many. Truly following his behavior, there seems to be much support for the idea that Sakurai is not a fan of platform games.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Dark Dawn was considered a worse game than its two predecessors, true.
However, there is an extremely mal-corrected, ill-informed community who propogates the lie that it was a bad game.
On the contrary, it received generally high reviews across the board, averaging a B. Even its sales were nearly as low as many make it out to be.

There is this incredible misconception that it did badly and was a bad game- on the contrary. It is a series which received remarkable reviews in its first two games, and in its third, it received only 'good' reviews and sales. Naming it a 'bad' game is quite a faulty statement. Then faulting it for starting off as an incredible series is even more perplexing.

Didn't say it did badly, I already knew of those facts already. Personally I think it's ok reception (comparing to other franchises that got a playable representative in Smash 4.) probably made Sakurai put Isaac at a lower priority.

Smash Bros isn't a platforming game. As far as Kirby, he took it on when he was young and new to the field, and then left it when he became successful enough to be more picky about his jobs. This actually further supports my argument that he does not like platforming games- he started on one because they were the big field when he was young, and left as soon as he could afford to.

Not just that, when he did return to Kirby, he did it as a racing game. His representation of Wario dismisses any platforming past. He game Mario a new move that was usable in his main story line, but a game that was NOT a platformer (FLUDD) and otherwise forgotten by many. Truly following his behavior, there seems to be much support for the idea that Sakurai is not a fan of platform games.

It technically is if you consider SSE.
You do bring up some noticeable points up though.

 

[ThePenguinGamer0]

He gave Mario a new move that was usable in his main story line, but a game that was NOT a platformer (FLUDD) and otherwise forgotten by many.

Last time I checked, Super Mario Sunshine was a platformer.

 

[BluePikmin11]

He didn't even ignore Donkey Kong Country Returns and Super Mario Galaxy (both platformers) and gave them good representation, I don't think he has much hate on platformers I think.

 

[kenniky]

I believe that the main thing Sakurai wants from Smash Bros. is for it to be a celebration of video games. This is the reason that he adds obscure characters ( - all of which had their games incredibly well reviewed) and retro characters ( ), as well as the reason that Sakurai always adds one of the most recent Pokemon, as it's the second best selling video game series ever - he wants to recognize its success. He's made incredible attempts to include different genres ( ) even if it seems unlikely or even impossible that such a character could fit in to the world of Smash Bros. He's made references to video games in the alternate costumes of all things - look at the Koopalings, Shulk and Lucina alts, Wireframe Mac, ZSS's shorts costumes, etc. Add to that the plethora of trophies in every Smash game, including trophies of games that aren't even Nintendo (Rayman) just to celebrate video games.

I think that's the main thing Sakurai considers when choosing characters.

 

[Burruni]

He didn't even ignore Donkey Kong Country Returns and Super Mario Galaxy (both platformers) and gave them good representation, I don't think he has much hate on platformers I think.

Miyamoto hates platformers.
That'swhynocharactersintheentireSuperSmashBros. for Nintendo3DS and WiiUgot in who... were from a predominantly platforming game when they entered. I mean... it's almost as if Nintendo has a diversified library of successful series of many genres which are represented by the characters in a roster intended for their all-stars!

 

[PhantomShab]

3- A reflect or counter. No Zelda characters have this, but Ganondorf needs it; how much time do you spend volleying back and forth with Ganondorf in each fight?

I'd really rather Ganondorf not have a counter move. Counter moves are practically omnipresent in Smash 4 as it is, and I'd hate to see Ganondorf be given Smash's go-to cop-out move.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Didn't say it did badly, I already knew of those facts already. Personally I think it's ok reception (comparing to other franchises that got a playable representative in Smash 4.) probably made Sakurai put Isaac at a lower priority.

It did better than Wii Fit U, and equally as good as Wii Fit (another franchise that went down in quality)
It did only very slightly worse than Kid Icarus Uprising.
It did substantially better than any Mii "franchise" (Wii Sports/Resort, Wii Music, Wii Play, Wii Party)
The following titles received ratings of only 10 percent higher (Pokemon X/Y, Punchout Wii, Fire Emblem Awakening, Xenoblade)

Though, all of this is almost beside the point, because don't think any character this game got in from just being an 'outstanding game' except maybe Shulk.

You may have been aware of the facts, but even insinuating that Dark Dawn is an unremarkable game because it went from being a series that was "Exceptionally good" to just "Good" in ratings and reception only further propagates the incorrect notion that Dark Dawn bombed-- it certainly did not.
Not to mention, your statement was that Sakurai honors characters with outstanding gameplay, citing Lucas as an example. When Lucas was added, Dark Dawn was not even a part of the equation.

 

[Argos]

I believe that the main thing Sakurai wants from Smash Bros. is for it to be a celebration of video games. This is the reason that he adds obscure characters ( - all of which had their games incredibly well reviewed) and retro characters ( ), as well as the reason that Sakurai always adds one of the most recent Pokemon, as it's the second best selling video game series ever - he wants to recognize its success. He's made incredible attempts to include different genres ( ) even if it seems unlikely or even impossible that such a character could fit in to the world of Smash Bros. He's made references to video games in the alternate costumes of all things - look at the Koopalings, Shulk and Lucina alts, Wireframe Mac, ZSS's shorts costumes, etc. Add to that the plethora of trophies in every Smash game, including trophies of games that aren't even Nintendo (Rayman) just to celebrate video games.

I think that's the main thing Sakurai considers when choosing characters.

Yeah, I think Sakurai has a lot of fondness for gaming history. One potential blindspot I see, however, is that games that are in the nebulous space between 'retro' and 'relevant' can easily fall through the cracks. There's a lot of loving touches that I see in a lot of the retro characters - the incorporation of tons of different games in Duck Hunt and Game & Watch, the wireframe alts for Little Mac (maybe not technically retro, but those alts certainly are) and so on that can at least be partially explained by them being the games he himself played in his youth. When Melee came out Ice Climbers was around 16 years old. Right now the original, say, Golden Sun is around 14 years old. If Golden Sun really is a moribund series and Sakurai does take the reigns on the next version (neither of which are assured, obviously) do we really think that he would consider Isaac a 'retro' character worth adding?

 

[pupNapoleon]

Last time I checked, Super Mario Sunshine was a platformer.

I'll renig the statement about the FLUDD, but I think that both Sunshine and Galaxy are as much adventure and even a bit of the puzzle genre, as they are platform games.
I can amend my statement to '2D platformers' as well.

Miyamoto hates platformers.
That'swhynocharactersintheentireSuperSmashBros. for Nintendo3DS and WiiUgot in who... were from a predominantly platforming game when they entered. I mean... it's almost as if Nintendo has a diversified library of successful series of many genres which are represented by the characters in a roster intended for their all-stars!

...this is an absurd post. Your argument seems to be "He added in characters he was damn near required to add, and that means he doesn't hate platformers!"
Of coruse, Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, DK, Diddy... they aren't all required to get in, technically. But I mean, really, they are.
Megaman was for the fans who wanted him, and for gaming legacy.
The fact that Bowser Jr and Rosalina got in does not mean he likes platformers- he merely wanted to show more of Mario, and felt inspired.

You are welcome to disagree with me, but I've provided a number of very crucial points as to why I believe he doesn't add platforming games into the game unless he basically feels he has to, or his dislike is superceded with a more pressing matter, such as inspiration for a new moveset, or extreme fan demand.
I don't think he 'hates' the genre, I just think it holds no interest to him, and even if he doesn't ignore it (which is absurd and childish), he only looks at it when he has to.

 

[BluePikmin11]

You may have been aware of the facts, but even insinuating that Dark Dawn is an unremarkable game because it went from being a series that was "Exceptionally good" to just "Good" in ratings and reception only further propagates the incorrect notion that Dark Dawn bombed-- it certainly did not.

Though, all of this is almost beside the point, because don't think any character this game got in from just being an 'outstanding game' except maybe Shulk.

There is no just when it comes to character inclusion.

Not to mention, your statement was that Sakurai honors characters with outstanding gameplay, citing Lucas as an example. When Lucas was added, Dark Dawn was not even a part of the equation.

(Don't forget the story, that's pretty much Mother's most well-received factor)
What do you mean by Dark Dawn not being in the equation exactly?

 

[pupNapoleon]

(Don't forget the story, that's pretty much Mother's most well-received factor)What do you mean by Dark Dawn not being in the equation exactly?

If we go back to Brawl days, when Lucas was added, Dark Dawn didn't exist- and he was still added wherein no Golden Sun character was.

There is no just when it comes to character inclusion.

Useful thread then, Blue

 

[Arcadenik]

I think that characters like cannot be used to claim contradictions on Sakurai's comments about uniqueness because they were originally added as last-minute filler clones or semi-clones after he was finished with adding the unique characters that he actually planned to add from the start... and Sakurai chose to keep them that way in the sequels.

 

[BluePikmin11]

If we go back to Brawl days, when Lucas was added, Dark Dawn didn't exist- and he was still added wherein no Golden Sun character was.

What does that have to do with the games I mention having great reception? Unless you meant about the Dark Dawn being considered for representation in Brawl, which is obviously not the case.
I'm not sure where you are getting at, any Nintendo game that has polished with quality and notable hard work like the franchises I mentioned has a good chance at getting a playable character.

 

[pupNapoleon]

What does that have to do with the games I mention having great reception? Unless you meant about the Dark Dawn being considered for representation in Brawl, which is obviously not the case.
I'm not sure where you are getting at, any Nintendo game that has polished with quality and notable hard work like the franchises I mentioned has a good chance at getting a playable character.

I stated that Dark Dawn could not have been taken into account for Brawl, as it wasnt out then.

I stated that there are many characters who were added from games hat cannot be considered polished.
And many VERY polished games that have received nothing.
It doesn't seem to really matter to him.

 

[BKupa666]

I think that characters like cannot be used to claim contradictions on Sakurai's comments about uniqueness because they were originally added as last-minute filler clones or semi-clones after he was finished with adding the unique characters that he actually planned to add from the start... and Sakurai chose to keep them that way in the sequels.

You answered your own question.

Funny, Sakurai is apparently so opposed to changing moves for the one character so many people are begging to see changed, but has no problem doing it of his own volition for guys like Pit or Bowser, simply to keep them accurate to their in-game selves. Not to mention that he actively changed the game's physics from Melee, well aware of the "maniac players" he'd be alienating, heh.

The standards used to pass Falcondorf off as "in-character" would never be tolerated on another character. I'll echo the hypothetical of Wario becoming a clone in Melee. . .would he magically be in-character too for being "strong and slow?" Or maybe Dedede as a "strong and slow" clone of an Ice Climber?

 

[Chzrm3]

Sakurai is very often disingenuous when it comes to the answers he offers up to the fanbase. There's no clearer indication of this then his reasoning for not including another SSE-type story mode in Smash 4. He claims it's "because people watched the cutscenes on youtube", but that obviously isn't why - the real reason is because it's a massive investment to make a full campaign mode for a fighting game, and the resources they would've needed to use on in-game cutscenes were instead used as marketing/promotional movies instead. On top of this, they were developing Smash for the 3ds and Wii U simultaneously.

Simply put, there wasn't enough money, time, or manpower.

But Sakurai doesn't say any of that. He makes some convenient excuse instead.

That's why he so often contradicts himself, and why his decisions sometimes just seem illogical. It's because his real reasons for doing things are probably a lot less admirable. "I don't care that much about Ganondorf" isn't a very satisfying answer. Neither is "I like Kid Icarus more than Metroid", or any of the other real reasons.

Basically what I'm getting at is, stop reading into what Sakurai says so much. He's not a tragically misunderstood genius, he's just a talented dev who's giving milquetoast answers to avoid pissing people off.

 

[Arcadenik]

You answered your own question.

Funny, Sakurai is apparently so opposed to changing moves for the one character so many people are begging to see changed, but has no problem doing it of his own volition for guys like Pit or Bowser, simply to keep them accurate to their in-game selves. Not to mention that he actively changed the game's physics from Melee, well aware of the "maniac players" he'd be alienating, heh.

The standards used to pass Falcondorf off as "in-character" would never be tolerated on another character. I'll echo the hypothetical of Wario becoming a clone in Melee. . .would he magically be in-character too for being "strong and slow?" Or maybe Dedede as a "strong and slow" clone of an Ice Climber?

Pit's and Bowser's (and even Mario's) changes don't radically change their entire movesets like what the salty people want with Ganondorf's moveset.

Also, physics are not movesets. They don't change the characters' movesets. Peach has the same moveset in Melee and Brawl despite both games having different physics.

 

[Frostwraith]

Pit's and Bowser's (and even Mario's) changes don't radically change their entire movesets like what the salty people want with Ganondorf's moveset.

This.

There are quite a bunch of characters who changed a few moves over the games, but their general feel is the same.

Mario: Mario Tornado (Melee) -> FLUDD (Brawl)
Bowser: Side special change from Melee to Brawl, animation overhaul and a few new moves from Brawl to 4
Pit: Changed three special moves (the down specials being nearly identical) and Final Smash from Brawl to 4, while retaining the entire A moveset.
Kirby: Had changes to dash attack from Melee to Brawl and the side special always changed mechanics since Melee. New Final Smash in 4.
Link and Donkey Kong: Dash attack changes from Brawl to 4.
Ganondorf: Complete animation overhaul and a lot of changes to his moves (side B, side A, A, up Smash; forward A, down A) from Melee to Brawl, rendering him as semi-clone of Falcon. Falco also got similar changes in Brawl.

The only thing I could see happening to Ganondorf would be a few moves here and there, but still keeping the heavier, slower version of Falcon design he always had in Smash since his debut in Melee.

I think the only reason he didn't get changes this time was due to no new game featuring Ganondorf happened at the time the Smash 4 roster was decided (Hyrule Warriors is out of the question). The day that happens, I'm positive Ganondorf could receive some overhauls.

From Melee to Brawl, there was Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, with him getting the design from the latter. His side B and side A moves are actually based on moves he does in Twilight Princess. The former is nearly identical to what he does to one of the Sages (he does kill a Sage by choking him on the neck and literally vaporizing him) and the latter is from his boss battle and has a nearly identical animation.

Of course, he still keeps a lot of Falcon-esque moves and the general moveset style was kept, but he got inspiration from the titles that were released before Brawl. In Wind Waker, he's also shown grabbing Link or Tetra (can't remember now) in a similar way as his side special. He also delivers a backhanded punch to Zelda at one point. Guess how Warlock Punch has been since Brawl? Yep, a backhanded punch. A lot of the revised animations in Brawl (and, by extension, SSB4) do in fact mimic instances of him engaging in hand-to-hand combat from both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess.

He may be a Falcon semi-clone now, but he does have inspiration from canon titles. Artwork from Ocarina of Time suggest he has prowess in hand-to-hand combat. Curiously, now that I think of it, the forward aerial animation reminds me of this particular artwork.

[collapse="Link vs. Ganondorf"]

[/collapse]

Of course, he doesn't use projectiles and such, but his magic does play a part in his moveset by powering up his hand-to-hand combat. A lot of his moves either possess electrical proprieties (just like his projectiles from Ocarina of Time, no less!) and general darkness effects (fitting for the King of Darkness himself and also ended up being in Hyrule Warriors). Can you tell me it's completely coincidental why those two elements were chosen for his special effects?

So, to say Ganondorf's moveset is completely uninspired is bull****. Sure, it would be the best if he was more unique and such, but observing the facts, it's easy to conclude that Sakurai is clearly aiming for a compromise between keeping his Falcon clone status and canon stuff by putting as much inspiration from his instances of hand-to-hand combat incorporated in the moves. It's not a perfect solution, but it's not entirely out-of-character either.

What could help giving Ganondorf more unique flair is him being featured in more titles besides remakes. A new design and new moves could spark some inspiration to keep the same moveset style while differentiating him more from Falcon.