What holds back a mid-level player from being high-level?

[A Scrub]

Aside from johns, what holds them back?

Habits they don't see in themselves? Or being slow to figure out reads on a new opponent?

Or is not everyone destined to be good at the game, regardless of how much proper practice they put in.

 

[Cyro_]

It's a mix of things.

1. Some people are just better at reaction.
2. Habits of course.
3. Reading is key and the first one to get mix ups has a upper hand.
4. Some of it goes to character limits i.e. fighting a character with better ledge guarding ect. But its mostly a minority.
5. Mind games.
6. Match up knowledge.

Those are just some things that separate mid level and high level. Their is other things such as time with the game and skill but that's self explanatory.

 

[C0rvus]

A big difference is time, top players have been in specific situations many times, and as such can generally make decisions with less hesitation and more understanding. They aren't held back by execution errors or lack of information, they control their character without the need to focus on many specifics, and can focus on playing "the game" and against their opponent.

 

[Nah]

Or is not everyone destined to be good at the game, regardless of how much proper practice they put in.

This is indeed a factor, and it's something people tend to seem to not want to admit.

It's not the only possible reason though.

 

[outfoxd]

This is indeed a factor, and it's something people tend to seem to not want to admit.

It's not the only possible reason though.

Admitting it may unintentionally hamstring a player that might not make it. Really people should just keep going until they make it or can't stand trying anymore, if that ever happens.

 

[vegeta18]

i think for a lot of top players their advantage state is ridiculous, when they hit you once they know how to capitalize off it as much as possible, they know how to get you off stage and keep you there, and they will go for the kill the instant they see the opportunity

 

[Baby_Sneak]

This is indeed a factor, and it's something people tend to seem to not want to admit.

It's not the only possible reason though.

This is a game, not a sport.

The only thing holding a player back is his willingness to learn and open-mindedness and comprehension to different fighting game concepts. Execution is something anyone can grind out provided they take the appropriate steps.

 

[|RK|]

It can be summed up as this: They make more mistakes.

 

[0megaZer0]

Interesting conversation here...

 

[KillerqueenxTusk]

Abusing Foo strategies.

Pretty much what they say right here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w

Think about all the people online that you see spamming short hop f-airs, or how many people will play Bayonetta and spam F-special.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Aside from johns, what holds them back?

Refinement.

When I attained my brown belt (with red still left to go before black), my instructor told me that I had basically already acquired all the skills & knowledge I would need. From here on out it's just refinement of what you can already do and know.

 

[Dream Cancel]

Refinement.

When I attained my brown belt (with red still left to go before black), my instructor told me that I had basically already acquired all the skills & knowledge I would need. From here on out it's just refinement of what you can already do and know.

To add on this, I would like to say that the decision-making process of top players is usually more comprehensive and quicker than mid-level players. If not these, then they are more intuitive to the the top players, so they can make the same informed decisions faster and with more accuracy.

 

[Nah]

Admitting it may unintentionally hamstring a player that might not make it. Really people should just keep going until they make it or can't stand trying anymore, if that ever happens.

This is a game, not a sport.

The only thing holding a player back is his willingness to learn and open-mindedness and comprehension to different fighting game concepts. Execution is something anyone can grind out provided they take the appropriate steps.

spare me the naive bull**** please

 

[Baby_Sneak]

spare me the naive bull**** please

Yeah, cuz ally was born with world-class genes, a mind for metahumans, and super flexible, powerful fingers right?

It's time and understanding. Those that have time to grind and those who are able to understand abstract concepts better do better. It's not that hard lol. Reactions only take you so far.

 

[outfoxd]

Homie, my statement is couched in pragmatism. All i said is that if you're going to play competitively you had better act like you can become a top player even if it's apparent you can't and it's a delusion.

 

[Nah]

Yeah, cuz ally was born with world-class genes, a mind for metahumans, and super flexible, powerful fingers right?

It's time and understanding. Those that have time to grind and those who are able to understand abstract concepts better do better. It's not that hard lol. Reactions only take you so far.

I am not saying that some people are born superhuman. I am saying that we are human beings. We are imperfect, flawed. We have our limits, things beyond our capabilities. For some people for some things, they will never make it, no matter how much they try or what their mindset is.

This is reality, and one's attitude or thoughts do not have the power to change that.

Homie, my statement is couched in pragmatism. All i said is that if you're going to play competitively you had better act like you can become a top player even if it's apparent you can't and it's a delusion.

Why act like something you know you're not though? Why delude yourself?

 

[outfoxd]

I am not saying that some people are born superhuman. I am saying that we are human beings. We are imperfect, flawed. We have our limits, things beyond our capabilities. For some people for some things, they will never make it, no matter how much they try or what their mindset is.

This is reality, and one's attitude or thoughts do not have the power to change that.


Why act like something you know you're not though? Why delude yourself?

Because it works for some people. Or at least keeps them trying however hopeless it feels.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I am not saying that some people are born superhuman. I am saying that we are human beings. We are imperfect, flawed. We have our limits, things beyond our capabilities. For some people for some things, they will never make it, no matter how much they try or what their mindset is.

This is reality, and one's attitude or thoughts do not have the power to change that.

Why act like something you know you're not though? Why delude yourself?

This would be true if we're talking about sports, which tests the limits of our physical beings, but we're talking about a game. Unless you're born with disabilities, the average person should be able to become a top player with no intense struggle, provided he has time and a thriving scene/way to play people better than him. There's a tooooooon of resources to learn fundamentals and tips for fighting games on different websites, YouTube, and reddit. You can see every top player's play style and what to do to counter them on YouTube. Other top players Analyze matches between other top players and discuss what went wrong and what amazing play happened. You have heaps and heaps of resources to access to become a monster. However, The biggest hurdle a player has to overcome to become top is his/herself, and many players don't due to being massively stubborn and hard-headed, or not understanding some of the abstract concepts (which isn't too hard, due to the many guides that may focus on a single concept). The possibly of the average to become top is still high though.

 

[Nah]

This would be true if we're talking about sports, which tests the limits of our physical beings, but we're talking about a game. Unless you're born with disabilities, the average person should be able to become a top player with no intense struggle, provided he has time and a thriving scene/way to play people better than him. There's a tooooooon of resources to learn fundamentals and tips for fighting games on different websites, YouTube, and reddit. You can see every top player's play style and what to do to counter them on YouTube. Other top players Analyze matches between other top players and discuss what went wrong and what amazing play happened. You have heaps and heaps of resources to access to become a monster. However, The biggest hurdle a player has to overcome to become top is his/herself, and many players don't due to being massively stubborn and hard-headed, or not understanding some of the abstract concepts (which isn't too hard, due to the many guides that may focus on a single concept). The possibly of the average to become top is still high though.

Physical limitations are not the only kind of limitations people have to deal with.

Yes, there are resources out there, but that is still not a guarantee that someone will become any good. Besides, you have no proof anyway that the only thing holding people back is themselves/their mentality.

 

[Machii]

Fundamentals

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Physical limitations are not the only kind of limitations people have to deal with.

Yes, there are resources out there, but that is still not a guarantee that someone will become any good. Besides, you have no proof anyway that the only thing holding people back is themselves/their mentality.

If you're going to start using that as your counter argument, then you might as well just quit. There is no 100%, true, defining reason on what keeps Mid-Levels players from being High-Level and you don't have the answer to it.

You can have a viewpoint without getting on other people's cases you know.

 

[Nah]

There is no 100%, true, defining reason on what keeps Mid-Levels players from being High-Level

Then why are some people acting like there is?

You can have a viewpoint without getting on other people's cases you know.

I'm not.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Then why are some people acting like there is?

Because I'm making it super broad. The problems people experience varies from another and can be endless, but they all fall between mindset/understanding and execution (and a thriving scene).

 

[A Scrub]

Because I'm making it super broad. The problems people experience varies from another and can be endless, but they all fall between mindset/understanding and execution (and a thriving scene).

I find it's a big hurdle to get over the mindset part. I have an open mind, I constantly watch replays of me and point out a weakness to work on, then fix that habit and continue to do this. I've gotten better because of this, but now my issue is with execution.

I find I make input mistakes that I didn't mean to, and it's cost me lots in tournaments. This is my current focus, rather than analysis at the moment, to make every action and input meaningful, and come out when I want it to. Definitely something I've neglected and it's as important to be able to do what you want to, as it is to know what you need to do.

 

[jet56]

There are various reasons of course, but you first need to establish what makes a top level player a top level player.

Strong fundementals
sense of game knowledge
strong mentality
consistency

More or less these are the 4 main points, and other aspects of the game fall into one of those said 4 categories. Now some of these are easier to master or achieve than others, but the kicker is being good in all 4. The game is, more or less, split up in 3 different aspects of gameplay:

Neutral
advantage
disadvantage

Multiple different apsects of the game fall into one of the 3 whether it is your ledge trap game (advanatage), your mixups to reset neutral (disadvantage) your spacing (neutral, but important for all 3 phases), mindgames (all 3), or even minor things like punish windows and mu knowledge.

Ok ok. but you want to know not only what separates mid level players from the good ones, but how to really get there. Well i can't answer what each player needs to specifically work on, but i can lay it out to show how to reach the next level. Keep in mind this is more theorycrafting on my part, so keep that in mind.

Neutral- what makes you an amazing and good player. having a good neutral means you can bait, condition, read, space, react and whiff punish in neutral, mix-up and mindgame your opponent, and so on. NEUTRAL IS WHAT MAKES YOU A GOOD PLAYER

advantage- This is your punish game, and how much you can get off of your neutral wins. this involves your ledgetrapping and edgeguarding game, your punish and combo game, and so forth. it is in this phase that you take a majority of your opponents stocks. having a strong advantage state means your opponent doesn't have a chance to comeback or retaliate, and gives them less chances to cheese you or win. ADVANTAGE IS WHAT MAKES YOU A CONSISTENT PLAYER

disadvantage- This is your how good you are at resetting neutral, recovering, midigating damage, effectively landing and getting back to stage, survivability, and reversing or stopping your opponents momentum. It's players with good disadvantage and survivability that pull off upsets, have that magical "clutch" or "comeback" factor, and cheese stocks, games and sets away that they otherwise shouldn't have won. DISADVANTAGE IS WHAT GIVES PLAYERS "PLOT ARMOR" (for lack of a better term)

Keep in mind that some characters also naturally have tools that fit into one of these 3 apsects of the game better than others. Mario for example, has an amazing advantage state, while characters like duck hunt, may not. diddy and sheik have top tier neutral states, while robin, lucario, and ganon do not. you need to look at your characters strengths and weaknesses, and then look at your own. i'll also give some staple questions to help identify where you might be lacking.

Do you do well against players better than you or equal to you?
Are your placings consistent, both at locals or larger tournaments?
Do you pull upsets at all, and if you do, do you do it often?
Do you find yourself running into a "bad MU" often?

The first question will help identify if your neutral game is lacking. if you find yourself outclassed by better players, then your neutral game needs work.
The second question will help see if you might need to work on your advantage game, as that is what nets stocks.
The 3 question asks how good your disadvantage is, as better players can lose to an opponent who can survive long enough to cheese a stock or game (either through rage, or something else.)
the 4 question is pretty simple. it's possible your character is lacking, and you either need another character, or a new main altogether.

Again, this is a lot of theorycrafting on my part, but hopefully it's some good food for thought.

 

[BSP]

Aside from johns, what holds them back?

Habits they don't see in themselves? Or being slow to figure out reads on a new opponent?

Or is not everyone destined to be good at the game, regardless of how much proper practice they put in.

I think success in this game solely falls to how much time/effort you put into it, and how you put said time/effort into the game. A large part of it is also your mindset. A band teacher back in the day told me that the only difference between us students and the professionals was the amount of time we put into our instruments. I think smash is the same way.

I can use myself and a few local players as an example. Are you familiar with captain Zack and Samsora? Not too long ago they were relatively unknown. Back during that time, they were still better players than me, but not by that much. I could feasibly compete with them and not get destroyed.

Fast forward to today. I don't know exactly what those two did to get better, but I definitely know they traveled to tournaments a lot more (since I see them on results for a lot of OOS tournaments now). Now they're significantly better players than me, easily considered national threats while I'm a still relatively unknown local threat. Again, I don't know exactly what they did, but I know for sure I haven't been putting in the same travel time for the game as they have.

I truly believe that if I put more time into the game a.k.a. refining my control of my character(s), studying top level matches to see high level decision making, AND traveling to OOS events to get the experience of being in those situations, I would have been on the same path as zack and samsora. Obviously I can't say I'd be just as good as them, but hopefully my point is clear.

The only thing holding a player back is themselves. ZeRo made a video about getting better and it basically came to the same conclusion. How much sacrifice (time/effort) are you willing to put towards the game in order to get good?

Here's the video I was referring to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvJ6o78e2g8

jet56 I liked your post, but let me point out that punish windows are actually a huge thing and not minor imo. I still see even high/top players continue blocking when their shield is struck by a move that isn't safe. That knowledge can really cost you sets or let you get away with things you shouldn't if your opponent is ignorant.

 

[Crystanium]

We have our limits, things beyond our capabilities.

Such as?

For some people for some things, they will never make it, no matter how much they try or what their mindset is.

I don't buy that. One with a fixed mindset won't get anywhere, no matter how much they try. I can agree with that.

This is reality, and one's attitude or thoughts do not have the power to change that.

That's horse ****. Unless you don't think attitude won't affect your performance. I'd say the majority of people who have played competitively and became demoralized or lost their confidence did not perform as well as they otherwise could have, would disagree with you.

 

[A Scrub]

Such as?



I don't buy that. One with a fixed mindset won't get anywhere, no matter how much they try. I can agree with that.



That's horse ****. Unless you don't think attitude won't affect your performance. I'd say the majority of people who have played competitively and became demoralized or lost their confidence did not perform as well as they otherwise could have, would disagree with you.

Mew2King being a prime example of that.

 

[Ralugi]

I think I arrived a little too late to the party.

I think it just boils down to the little things; Intricacies that only a high level player or someone with vast knowledge would be able to pick up. Those moments Larry Lurr microspaces a Marth and kills him off with incredible juggling by cancelling the Uair.

Or how Ally reacts to his opponents every move, and reads correctly almost all the time just from experience, turning a disadvantage into a serious advantage.

Or ZeRo playing on ledge, and turning an advantage into a win.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Time effort with efficient practice are important steps. Practicing and hour against cpus with a character you never plan on using won't help you as much as other characters you do use.

 

[Iron Kraken]

A lot of it comes down to just having the right kind of practice.

For example, I had never played Smash Bros competitively until the arrival of Smash 4. But between 2014 and late 2015, I turned myself from a scrub into one of the best WiFi-only players out there. I went even or better with other WiFi players like Twi, Captain Zack, DarkShad, etc. I took sets off of top streamers like Dabuz and Larry Lurr (with both using their mains).

However, the very few times I attended tournaments, I didn't convert that great WiFi play into great results. Why? Because I just wasn't used to playing offline. I was sitting and holding my controller in a way I wasn't used to. The environment wasn't natural to me. Overall, I just wasn't in my comfort zone. I had tech flub after tech flub.

Ultimately, the only way I was ever going to show improvement offline was by playing a lot more offline. Now as it happens, I quit before that ever happened.

But in general, it comes down to having the right kind of experience and practice. Master your tech skill. Learn how other great players fight so you understand what works against them. And then practice, practice, practice. And if you want to be a great offline player, make sure at least a decent amount of that practice is offline.

 

[Crystanium]

Mew2King being a prime example of that.

I don't know what you mean.

 

[A Scrub]

I don't know what you mean.

Well once he gets bumped into losers he gets all mopey, and instead of making a runback he just gives up.

 

[ZoraZayn]

Aside from johns, what holds them back?

Habits they don't see in themselves? Or being slow to figure out reads on a new opponent?

Or is not everyone destined to be good at the game, regardless of how much proper practice they put in.

Not everyone is meant to be great. But I have some more ideas.
-Johnning: this just holds players back. They just need to accept their mistakes.
-Mains: I know, Smash was meant for FUN. But you gotta pick someone you win as. For example, I can play Bayonetta, and I win almost every time as her. But with Link, I enjoy him more but I lose more too. Sometimes players need to pick a good main or they won't be any good.
-Controller: You need a good controller. GC controllers are best (obvs), but you can perform perfectly good with a WiiU Pro Controller, a Classic Controller Pro or even a properly configured Wiimote+nunchuck. If you play just Wiimoe, I'm sorry, you will not become a great Smasher.

 

[epicnights]

jet56 I liked your post, but let me point out that punish windows are actually a huge thing and not minor imo. I still see even high/top players continue blocking when their shield is struck by a move that isn't safe. That knowledge can really cost you sets or let you get away with things you shouldn't if your opponent is ignorant.

I feel like this hasn't been expounded on enough, honestly. Knowledge is great to have, but it doesn't really matter that much if you're not applying it in matches. Hell, some top players still don't know a lot about more than half of the cast. Of course, such an idea leads one to think, "if I know more than top players, why can't I perform like a top player?", and the answer to that is competence.

In psychology, there is a scale of the steps of learning that is taught along side Maslow's hierarchy called the hierarchy of competence. It is a four-tier chart that expresses the psychological stages involved with learning. The tiers are as follows:

1. Unconscious incompetence. This is where you not only are unable to do something, you also may not recognize or deny its usefulness. For example, someone on a lower level does not know how to perfect pivot and doesn't get why you'd want to learn it.
2. Conscious incompetence. This is where you are unable to do something, but can recognize the disadvantages of not learning it. For example, someone on a mid-level may not be able to perfect pivot consistently even during training, but they understand how it can be used whether through observation or theory.
3. Conscious competence. This is where you understand and can perform something, but it requires concentration. These are your higher level players who may be able to perfect pivot across the stage, but lack the ability to apply said perfect pivots into their actual neutral play.
4. Unconscious competence. This is where performing something has becoming second nature after lots of practice, and can be done easily while performing other tasks. These are your top level players, able to consistently apply perfect pivots into their neutral and punish games.

It is the ability to consistently recognize and apply their knowledge to a variety of situations that makes top players who they are. Learning and recognizing where you stand on this hierarchy is pivotal to know what you need to do as a player to improve yourself. And if that wasn't enough, here's a personal anecdote:

I was in grand finals of a college local, game 3 of a bracket reset. I was against a bayonetta on Lylat as Link, and my opponent was shielding on a side platform with the % lead. Instinctively, I ran from center stage and did a neutral full hop between the platforms, baiting a jump airdodge out of shield that I punished with a fair to win that game. At the time, I didn't recognize what I did; I had simply tried to close a stock with the rage I had. Upon reflection, however, I recognized that instead of simply jumping forward and throwing attacks at their shield that wouldn't do anything, I baited an option without even thinking about it.

That was simply one interaction in a single match, but it's an example of what top players do. And they do even more than that; they're thinking about punishes, feints, and even feint punishes. Hell, had I been fighting Captain Zack in that very moment, he would probably recognize the feint and punish the overextension with an upsmash that would easily end my stock. They're all second nature to them after hundreds, possibly even thousands of hours of being in similar circumstances over many different matches. That's what separates the men from the boys here in smash.

 

[Crystanium]

Well once he gets bumped into losers he gets all mopey, and instead of making a runback he just gives up.

All right, but he's still a great player. Others just have been able to keep up with him.

 

[Nyhte]

It's not simply a matter of time, if it was simply a matter of time then the holding of best title only means as much as "X decided to sink the most time into the game on Y so Y is probably high tier and X played the most"

I am a little puzzled by the physical vs nonphysical dichotomy in terms of limits. While people can say "it's a game not a physical sport like soccer" everything that we interact with is physical via the brain, you send signals to your hands that play the controller that play the game and it's a constant stream, people exist with lackluster mechanical skill, (tech skill as it's generally known?) or physical skill, which affects their performance the same as mental, and it can be any mixture of the two. While saying that everyone is the same might sound nice and fair everyone knows it's not true, it's not true when it comes to body types in sports and it's not true when it comes to the mentality or brains of people, some people react faster and some don't, some think in certain ways which would be advantages in one situation and disadvantages in another compared to another person and vice versa. There exists mental differences, knowledge and instincts in professional athletes that doesn't in other people, the difference is not just the body's gifted physique. If everyone was capable the same mentally then all games or non-physical games would mean is that the best person is the one who spent the most time and that's it, that doesn't seem to reflect reality.

Maybe people are just weird and being delusional is the right answer in terms of competitiveness, it can be disastrous thinking but it's also opposed to the self defeating "i'll never be the best" so never try mentality

Generally, can you get good? Absolutely. Barring determination or something, do you have it in you to be the best? No, not everyone can be the best because that's not how the word works. Should you try to be the best and try to win, not try to try or try to only give a half hearted attempt? Sounds better than not having any passion.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

It's not simply a matter of time, if it was simply a matter of time then the holding of best title only means as much as "X decided to sink the most time into the game on Y so Y is probably high tier and X played the most"

I am a little puzzled by the physical vs nonphysical dichotomy in terms of limits. While people can say "it's a game not a physical sport like soccer" everything that we interact with is physical via the brain, you send signals to your hands that play the controller that play the game and it's a constant stream, people exist with lackluster mechanical skill, (tech skill as it's generally known?) or physical skill, which affects their performance the same as mental, and it can be any mixture of the two. While saying that everyone is the same might sound nice and fair everyone knows it's not true, it's not true when it comes to body types in sports and it's not true when it comes to the mentality or brains of people, some people react faster and some don't, some think in certain ways which would be advantages in one situation and disadvantages in another compared to another person and vice versa. There exists mental differences, knowledge and instincts in professional athletes that doesn't in other people, the difference is not just the body's gifted physique. If everyone was capable the same mentally then all games or non-physical games would mean is that the best person is the one who spent the most time and that's it, that doesn't seem to reflect reality.

Maybe people are just weird and being delusional is the right answer in terms of competitiveness, it can be disastrous thinking but it's also opposed to the self defeating "i'll never be the best" so never try mentality

Generally, can you get good? Absolutely. Barring determination or something, do you have it in you to be the best? No, not everyone can be the best because that's not how the word works. Should you try to be the best and try to win, not try to try or try to only give a half hearted attempt? Sounds better than not having any passion.

Your analogy doesn't really have a leg to stand on. It works against you. "Since X sinked the most time into Y, Y is high tier and X played the most." Take note of all our top players, but especially ZeRo. Been playing smash since melee, plays Diddy the most, and look how everyone rates Diddy. When he played sheik in previous patches she was rated top tier. And most if not all the top players in this game were top players backs in brawl and melee, so they absolutely sank the most time into smash overall.

Sports lean more on genetics and genes than games because they're wayyy more involved with the body. Games are more involved with the mind. Unlike the body, the mind is much more adaptable and malleable and can take up new information and become more well-rounded in areas it lacked.

If you kept reading what I said, you would've seen me talk about mindset and understanding. In this way, fighting games are like chess, where the real thing holding you back is understanding and awareness of various micro and macro situations, not to mention how these situations influence the opponent, and then this influences how you read them. Execution is trivial because it's EASILY worked on and the goal is to be able to do nigh everything you can think of. All you need is proper training.

Reaction is nothing more than being able to simply information to make it easier to "digest" and go off of (It's easier to react when somebody just tells you to push a button when the screen flashes than if they told you to push a button when you find the needle in a haystack).

 

[The-Technique]

something nearly all the top smash 4 players have in common: they came from Brawl as top players.

wanna be the best? you put in the time, all the other top players have.

 

[my_T]

There's definitely a physical component you have to consider. Execution in a variety of fighting games is one of the few things that separates the boys from the men. People have different levels of coordination, ambidexterity, and speed. You can train these specific attributes but to what extent I am not sure.

Some games you can't even play at a decent level without good execution like Tekken, KOF, or Melee.

Take Luigi's cyclone for example, can everybody achieve the mashing level of Elegant and Concon? I'm not so sure.