robosteven
Smash Lord
He needs a Samus Cannon that fires long-range Warlock Punches.
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What Ganon needs...
- Thread starter Sweet™
- Start date
robosteven
Smash Lord
Mario's hat.
Meme
Smash Journeyman
Would be nice if Ganondorf had...
• Two part d-smash
• SIde-B armor (like Bowser's crouching armor) or Z (depth) movement (like C.Falcon's Melee Side B) to have an option vs projectiles.
• Two part d-smash
• SIde-B armor (like Bowser's crouching armor) or Z (depth) movement (like C.Falcon's Melee Side B) to have an option vs projectiles.
robosteven
Smash Lord
I'd rather have a d-smash that hits lower than a d-smash that works as a two-hit.
troof.
Meme
Smash Journeyman
Can't deny the truth...
I can imagine him having a ground pound (basing it of from OoT or SFIII Urien's taunt) but Wario pretty much already has that...
And instead of Mario's cape an Aegis' Reflector
;D
;D
Meme
Smash Journeyman
Or maybe move his Melee taunt animation to his down smash with the hitboxes of peach's dsmash.
Some Idears ...
- Bit of a grab buff, so things like missing Mario while he dash attacks or blatantly missing Kirby/Squirtle isn't an issue. The range of grabbing would be great too, so it isn't a nipplebox.
- Mobility. Perhaps the ability to jump out of either side+b or down+b (ofcourse, aerial down+b would be risky to jump out of, bc you'd lose the distance and jump)
- Armor on some moves - or, some way to deal with projectiles
- Functional moves (I'm looking at you up-tilt and neutral b)
- Bit of a grab buff, so things like missing Mario while he dash attacks or blatantly missing Kirby/Squirtle isn't an issue. The range of grabbing would be great too, so it isn't a nipplebox.
- Mobility. Perhaps the ability to jump out of either side+b or down+b (ofcourse, aerial down+b would be risky to jump out of, bc you'd lose the distance and jump)
- Armor on some moves - or, some way to deal with projectiles
- Functional moves (I'm looking at you up-tilt and neutral b)
Electric Tuba
Smash Journeyman
Quick note, jumping out of side b and down b would be super OP (like how sonic was in that one version).
I don't mind up-tilt, especially considering what it used to be. Neutral b, though... yeah.
I don't mind up-tilt, especially considering what it used to be. Neutral b, though... yeah.
robosteven
Smash Lord
The more I think about it the more I realize how easily adding more shield damage to Ganon's moves would completely fix him.
Stalled
Smash Apprentice
It would be nice to not be super scared of getting grabbed every time I hit someone with an aeriel.
_Ganondorf_
The Demon King
So from what I understand, the general consensus so far from most Ganon mains for what he needs is:
1- Better grab range, vertical and horizontal
2- new neutral B (hopefully useful)
3- better mobility to not get caught in combos so easily
4- some armor on moves and/or a way to deal with projectiles (maybe light armor on Wizard's Foot so it can go through projectile spam?)
5- adjust Up B recovery to help deal with edge-guarding better
6- more shield damage on moves, so opponents aren't so safe in their shield
7- fix some hitboxes/directions moves send after they hit (Aerial Wizkick hitbox, Fsmash sending sideways and not up etc.)
Am I missing somthing, or got somthing wrong?
If these things get fixed/addressed Ganondorf will be a true force to be reckoned with and current Ganon mains would probably have an easier time placing higher in tournaments.
1- Better grab range, vertical and horizontal
2- new neutral B (hopefully useful)
3- better mobility to not get caught in combos so easily
4- some armor on moves and/or a way to deal with projectiles (maybe light armor on Wizard's Foot so it can go through projectile spam?)
5- adjust Up B recovery to help deal with edge-guarding better
6- more shield damage on moves, so opponents aren't so safe in their shield
7- fix some hitboxes/directions moves send after they hit (Aerial Wizkick hitbox, Fsmash sending sideways and not up etc.)
Am I missing somthing, or got somthing wrong?
If these things get fixed/addressed Ganondorf will be a true force to be reckoned with and current Ganon mains would probably have an easier time placing higher in tournaments.
| Kailex |
I smell like salty coins and milk
Only agree with 1.
robosteven
Smash Lord
1, 6, and 7 are enough.
If 6 is fulfilled, his Warlock Punch can serve as punishment for a shield-break.
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5 as well, getting punished for landing the hug needs to go. Your opponent ****ed up the edgeguard, they shouldn't be given the advantage.
Given the list above, I broke it down to a more reasonable, and rational list of changes Ganondorf should receive in the next update. There are only two changes, but I've broken it down even further to explain why or give ideas as to how to approach the fix:
1. Fixed grab, in both the vertical and horizontal planes.
Again, these are minimal. I don't know exactly which moves should utilize these few changes, but I expect them to be balanced. Like, you wouldn't give Fair light armor and less cooldown, that's stupid. He is still Ganon, he should still be a heavyweight heavyhitter. Alternatively, he needs to be balanced a tad more to help out his approach game. He is a strong character, and I get the paradigm of "Slow = Strong" but we already have Bowser. And let's not forget how quick Ike can be! So I feel Ganondorf should be given a bit more mobility, given his position. And with a few of this little tweaks here and there, he'll become that much better.
Side Notes:
Recovery: Ganondorfs recover is bad because, well, he's Ganondorf. He is already a powerhouse so letting him recover would make him way too strong. Learn to sweetspot, play mindgames, and ultimately, tech spikes against the wall (its tough, but it's worth it)
He gets combo'd!: He gets combo'd easily for the same reason - his opponents can combo him, sure, but the moment we can sniff out a moment of weakness, even the simplest read, we get a hit. And our hits are miniature combos garbage compacted into swift boot to the gut/uterus/mouth/helmet/dong.
New Neutral B: Eh, it isn't a necessary change. And before you say it, PMBR cannot give characters projectiles unless they already have one. I support the idea of maybe giving him some sort of escape move or armor buffer, like Doomsday in Injustice, but nothing as crazy as these sword summons, electric slides, or dead mans volley ball. (I know thats wrong, don't worry). But this is pushing it.
All I ask for, if any PMBR member reads this, is bit more in his arsenal, just a bit, that allows us to stand a better chance against the Super Characters. I think that's a fair request.
Just an aside, the reason I don't think Ganondorf needs too many changes is because the rest of the roster - namely, the top tier crazy good characters - will be balanced more next update, thus, allowing Ganondorf to stand a better chance as a whole.
1. Fixed grab, in both the vertical and horizontal planes.
- Vertical - Not asking for much here, but it is near impossible to grab characters too low to the ground (Squirtle, Marios Dash Attack, Shiek sometimes).
- Horizontal - Reading an opponent and taking advantage of their slip up should let you try and go in for a grab. Instead, Ganon players either
- need to be nipples length away to grab opponents (which, unless you're playing against DK or Bowser, is a hard feat),
- go in and miss a grab because they were a bit too far
- be conditioned to never go for grabs unless characters hit boxes are lenient.
- In short, this should be increased a smidge. Besides, there is no reason Marth, Fox, and Kirby can grab better when Ganondorfs arms are the same if not longer.
- Priority - some moves deserve some more priority over others. Clanking with some projectiles and other attacks from characters visible weaker than Ganondorf doesn't help his whole Triforce of Power thang lol . But really, another move other than Nair should do it.
- Light Armor - Similarly, Ganon should have SOME light armor on his moves. This is not extensive or anything, just something to help him get in and get hits. Seriously, his thing is kinda "get in, deliver hits, get out"- he should be given a bit of an edge here. He can combo, sure, but that's for the Aggro Ganon. If he wants to win, he needs to play his game. And that's the patient, sinister waiting game (and spamming Spartan Kick).
- Speed - Again, not extensive speed boosts, and maybe not even for his running speed. I'm talking a few frames grace on some moves. A few things that could change could be wavedash/land distance, cooldown on Wiz Kick and less lag after aerial side+b. I'm not asking for Fair, Dair, or Aerial Wizard Kick to drastically lose lag upon landing. Just a smidge can make all the difference.
Again, these are minimal. I don't know exactly which moves should utilize these few changes, but I expect them to be balanced. Like, you wouldn't give Fair light armor and less cooldown, that's stupid. He is still Ganon, he should still be a heavyweight heavyhitter. Alternatively, he needs to be balanced a tad more to help out his approach game. He is a strong character, and I get the paradigm of "Slow = Strong" but we already have Bowser. And let's not forget how quick Ike can be! So I feel Ganondorf should be given a bit more mobility, given his position. And with a few of this little tweaks here and there, he'll become that much better.
Side Notes:
Recovery: Ganondorfs recover is bad because, well, he's Ganondorf. He is already a powerhouse so letting him recover would make him way too strong. Learn to sweetspot, play mindgames, and ultimately, tech spikes against the wall (its tough, but it's worth it)
He gets combo'd!: He gets combo'd easily for the same reason - his opponents can combo him, sure, but the moment we can sniff out a moment of weakness, even the simplest read, we get a hit. And our hits are miniature combos garbage compacted into swift boot to the gut/uterus/mouth/helmet/dong.
New Neutral B: Eh, it isn't a necessary change. And before you say it, PMBR cannot give characters projectiles unless they already have one. I support the idea of maybe giving him some sort of escape move or armor buffer, like Doomsday in Injustice, but nothing as crazy as these sword summons, electric slides, or dead mans volley ball. (I know thats wrong, don't worry). But this is pushing it.
All I ask for, if any PMBR member reads this, is bit more in his arsenal, just a bit, that allows us to stand a better chance against the Super Characters. I think that's a fair request.
Just an aside, the reason I don't think Ganondorf needs too many changes is because the rest of the roster - namely, the top tier crazy good characters - will be balanced more next update, thus, allowing Ganondorf to stand a better chance as a whole.
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_Ganondorf_
The Demon King
At the very least they should make Warlock Punch work like DK's punch it would be useful than.
Also I think his smash attacks hitboxes should be bigger/"cover more ground" just for some spacing purposes. And general ease of life buffs so to speak. Also some new unique animations would be welcomed.
Also I think his smash attacks hitboxes should be bigger/"cover more ground" just for some spacing purposes. And general ease of life buffs so to speak. Also some new unique animations would be welcomed.
Scuba Steve
Smash Ace
Armor doesn't suit Ganon. Find a new thing to suggest because that's been suggested time and time again and the common consensus has always said no.
_Ganondorf_
The Demon King
Maybe by you (and others as well of course), but obviously there is also people who think otherwise. In the end its up to the PMDT and I'm sure if they decide either way it would be after extensive testing.
And besides how does armor not fit him? from a design point of view he is an all powerful Demon King who can survive castles crushing on him and he also wears a suit of armor in his TP design. From a game play point of you it makes sense since most heavy characters have some form of armor and I don't see why Ganon shouldn't have some either. And I think he can make good use of it on some moves.
Lets just agree to disagree
I think we all want buffs for Ganon and I'll be happy with whatever form they come in really.
robosteven
Smash Lord
I like him as the game's punish character. That's the main reason I think minimal changes should be done to his overall moveset. Armor would change him around too much imo (reflective properties on some moves on the other hand might be nice).
The reason I'm all for the changes of improved grab range and increased shield damage is because with those two changes one could continue playing Ganondorf like Ganondorf. If you **** up against Ganon, it should mean big damage for you. If your shield breaks against him, it should mean a free 30% minimum for him in like two hits. Plus, if shield damage was a big part of his moveset, it would provide warlock punch a real use in competitive play.
When I play Ganon, I WANT TO SNAP MY ENEMIES LIKE A TWIG, not be an impenetrable fortress like Bowser. In this build it's kinda hard to do that with his poopy grab range, and giving him armor would just make him a different Bowser. Yeah he needs a way to deal with projectiles, but instilling the fear in projectile-spammers that their shields could break by looking at Ganon the wrong way would be a quick fix to his already awesome moveset.
tl;dr Make Ganondorf the most Ganondorf Ganondorf that ever Ganondorf.
GANONDORF.
I love this character.
The reason I'm all for the changes of improved grab range and increased shield damage is because with those two changes one could continue playing Ganondorf like Ganondorf. If you **** up against Ganon, it should mean big damage for you. If your shield breaks against him, it should mean a free 30% minimum for him in like two hits. Plus, if shield damage was a big part of his moveset, it would provide warlock punch a real use in competitive play.
When I play Ganon, I WANT TO SNAP MY ENEMIES LIKE A TWIG, not be an impenetrable fortress like Bowser. In this build it's kinda hard to do that with his poopy grab range, and giving him armor would just make him a different Bowser. Yeah he needs a way to deal with projectiles, but instilling the fear in projectile-spammers that their shields could break by looking at Ganon the wrong way would be a quick fix to his already awesome moveset.
tl;dr Make Ganondorf the most Ganondorf Ganondorf that ever Ganondorf.
GANONDORF.
I love this character.
so, it looks like a lot of stuff i was going to comment on has already been commented on : p
but, really, he doesn't need shield damage. if your opponent is shielding your attacks, good, you've conditioned them to get hit by flamechoke. start flamechoking.
mobility can be taken care of in multiple ways. 3.5 ganon is going to have mobility issues answered, unless they've totally scrapped the build i got to take a peek at.
totally agree on grab range buffs. i've talked about my opinions on it and stuff here already, and others have echoed similar sentiments.
as per the recovery buffs: he doesn't really need a recovery buff. his options aren't super amazing, but they're not terrible. he has probably a rather average recovery, since he can mix up with sideb and upb decently, giving him some options. i never really thought of how lame it is for his upb to have so much lag after hitting, but that's actually a good point. that could probably be shortened and not suddenly make ganon unstopbeatable.
on that note, do something with the animation after you wiz/falcon kick into a wall? : D it looks so cool, but it's just the worst ****ing thing in the world. even making it so when you hit the wall there's some super good hitbox there would help : p
but, really, he doesn't need shield damage. if your opponent is shielding your attacks, good, you've conditioned them to get hit by flamechoke. start flamechoking.
mobility can be taken care of in multiple ways. 3.5 ganon is going to have mobility issues answered, unless they've totally scrapped the build i got to take a peek at.
totally agree on grab range buffs. i've talked about my opinions on it and stuff here already, and others have echoed similar sentiments.
as per the recovery buffs: he doesn't really need a recovery buff. his options aren't super amazing, but they're not terrible. he has probably a rather average recovery, since he can mix up with sideb and upb decently, giving him some options. i never really thought of how lame it is for his upb to have so much lag after hitting, but that's actually a good point. that could probably be shortened and not suddenly make ganon unstopbeatable.
on that note, do something with the animation after you wiz/falcon kick into a wall? : D it looks so cool, but it's just the worst ****ing thing in the world. even making it so when you hit the wall there's some super good hitbox there would help : p
robosteven
Smash Lord
If we're thinking of the same thing, I'm actually really scared for this change. I think it'll change the way he plays too much.
As with most characters, I think he's fine. He just needs tweaks to the properties of his moves. ...like his grab range.
...and his damage on shield come on I really want this
| Kailex |
I smell like salty coins and milk
You want more shield damage, but he doesnt need to have it; as for mobility, Id say he's pretty above average, platforms and wavelands help a lot. Adding more mobility or better options for it, to heavy hitting character like ganondorf... I cant see anything but destruction.
robosteven
Smash Lord
I'd argue that Ganon doesn't need any changes, he just needs better players playing him. From Melee he's only gotten better, yet he can't seem to keep up with the rest of the cast. Aside from improvements to every character in the cast, why's Ganon still struggling? If he doesn't need the shield damage change, why does he need mobility changes?
My main concern is in making Ganon feel like the same character.
My secondary concern is making him too good which, as we can see with characters like Mewtwo who were given new mobility options, is very possible.
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Everyone in PM is too good in their own way.
Ganon doesn't need that much mobility as he needs defensive options. Not reflectors, actual defensive options that he can use out of shield or when juggled.
Ganon doesn't need a better neutral game, he needs better defenses.
Ganon doesn't need that much mobility as he needs defensive options. Not reflectors, actual defensive options that he can use out of shield or when juggled.
Ganon doesn't need a better neutral game, he needs better defenses.
| Kailex |
I smell like salty coins and milk
robosteven
Smash Lord
Can't plagiarize the truth.
edit: BLATANT truth
edit edit: Nah, but he does need something. There's a reason Ganon isn't really common in placings of PM tourneys, and it's not just the players.
...but the players are a factor.
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QuickRat
Smash Journeyman
I think I'm happy with him. Maybe I would fix Neutral-B in order to make it quicker and maybe I would add super armor to his Side-Smash. Other than that, just minor adjustments, such as shield damage, air speed...
I've seen a lot of criticism with his Up-Tilt. Can't understand why. It's a perfect combo-end move. Maybe the first hitbox is kind of wierd, but the attack itself is awesome.
I've seen a lot of criticism with his Up-Tilt. Can't understand why. It's a perfect combo-end move. Maybe the first hitbox is kind of wierd, but the attack itself is awesome.
Phantomarchangel
Smash Rookie
Yeah I'd like to see his grab range extended. I love his side B to death! It has great pressure and can punish people who dodge wrong or try to shield guard a lot. A slight speed increase would be nice or faster wavedash or something to help him out in the mobility department..