What do you think of cloud in the metagame so far?

[Kernelcapi]

Love to hear from you!

 

[FamilyTeam]

What a time for this to be posted. I think the mods should move this to the Cloud boards.
Cloud is a very solid character. I used to say he was top of Mid Tier, but after his incredible performance at Genesis and how effective people used him at the tournament I went to Yesterday, I'd say he's actually High Tier. He's very far from perfect, obviously. His grab game is kind of poor, for example, and his recovery is alright, but definitely not as unworkable as we thought it'd be when he was first released. He's very versatile, Limit is very good and gives him a lot of different ways to get very early kills or completely eliminate any problems you might have with his recovery. The range he has thanks to the sword is incredible, too.

 

[FUEGO!]

Yeah, not to mention he feels like Mario tier levels of "pick up and play", it's quite nice. Combined with his ability to kill, his ease to play effectively is very fulfilling. I'd place him within the top 15 personally.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Yeah, not to mention he feels like Mario tier levels of "pick up and play", it's quite nice.

You ain't ever gonna see a Cloud main admitting that, though.

 

[ArcanaXIII]

I'd say somewhere in upper high tier. An excellent projectile that can't be crouched under and forces approach, so many ways to build Limit, Finishing Touch, disjoints, good frame data, combo game, the best dash dance in the game, good run speed, passive buffs off Limit, good knockback, and good damage output.

He is also capable of different playstyles, being that he can be played aggressively, campy, opportunistically, and so forth.

Granted, he can be easily gimped, will have to be played differently once Limit is full, and be forced to use Limit off stage, but Cloud has pretty much all the tools to do well against the entire current roster, even the top tiers like Sheik, ZSS, and Rosalina.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

You ain't ever gonna see a Cloud main admitting that, though.

There's nothing shameful about a character being easy to play, and conversely, there's nothing honorable about a character being difficult to play.

Ryu is insanely technical, and he's still bull****. Sheik is not an easy character to play by any means--still bull****. Ganon is an easy character to play, but he's insanely hard to win tournaments with. Easy to play characters are stronger at first, because their meta develops faster than the counter-meta rather than at the same pace or slower. In the end, when the two forces average out, we will probably think about the character much differently.

 

[FamilyTeam]

There's nothing shameful about a character being easy to play, and conversely, there's nothing honorable about a character being difficult to play.

Ryu is insanely technical, and he's still bull****. Sheik is not an easy character to play by any means--still bull****. Ganon is an easy character to play, but he's insanely hard to win tournaments with. Easy to play characters are stronger at first, because their meta develops faster than the counter-meta rather than at the same pace or slower. In the end, when the two forces average out, we will probably think about the character much differently.

I never said that it was bad or shameful that Cloud is a simple character. However, I know some people who main him that think that there must be something special about maining a "complicated character" so you won't see them admitting that Cloud is simple.

 

[FUEGO!]

There's nothing shameful about a character being easy to play, and conversely, there's nothing honorable about a character being difficult to play.

Ryu is insanely technical, and he's still bull****. Sheik is not an easy character to play by any means--still bull****. Ganon is an easy character to play, but he's insanely hard to win tournaments with. Easy to play characters are stronger at first, because their meta develops faster than the counter-meta rather than at the same pace or slower. In the end, when the two forces average out, we will probably think about the character much differently.

I'm kinda right here with you. He's only going to be seen as powerful as long as there's no counter meta yet, but i believe figuring out exactly what moves your character has to make him have to recover at certain angles will be his downfall, because then it's just gimp and repeat. It's also funny that you mention Ryu, who i believe is overrated and his counter meta is starting to catch up, as evidenced by Genesis recently.

I never said that it was bad or shameful that Cloud is a simple character. However, I know some people who main him that think that there must be something special about maining a "complicated character" so you won't see them admitting that Cloud is simple.

I fail to see what's hard about "space them out, keep center stage, keep knocking them away and charging, hit them with the touch", but they can be special snowflakes who play Mario with a sword all they want, they're still on the same tier in difficulty IMO. That said, i should mention I love playing him, kinda use him as an anti-camp character, since I'm just gonna charge LB if you don't approach. It's nice because I have a lot of spam/camp lords in my state.

 

[Dar4]

Cloud is definitely top 15. I think he's top 10. We've already seen Tweek's cloud take a tourney from Nairo's ZSS and of course the doubles performances at Genesis.

Limit is stupid. The fact that it forces opponents to approach and can be charged so quickly is incredible. And make one mistake or get hit by a FF upair and you're dying at 60% to finishing touch.

His recovery is not near as bad as I thought it was day one. As long as you have your double jump or limit you're good. The vertical distance is not that bad at all. He'll never be S tier because of it being crappy horizontally and not autosnapping but I think cloud has top 5 potential.

And of course it's hard to say he loses hard to anyone when his killing power and punish game is so potent.

He clearly dominates pretty much all the mid and low tiers. Of the high tiers I'm not convinced his matchups against the top tiers are bad at all.

I can't imagine his matchups with are all that bad since cloud forces them all to approach.

 

[Top Boss]

He's incredible. Sure, his moveset can be simple at times, but he's got quite a bit of depth to him as well.

 

[Jenna Zant]

He's good, but he's not great. Top 15, but Ike is still better.

 

[IncomingGhost]

He's good, but he's not great. Top 15, but Ike is still better.

Really? I would definitely put Cloud above Ike, considering Ike's only strengths over Cloud are throw combos (when Cloud has better setups) and a better recovery

 

[Jenna Zant]

Really? I would definitely put Cloud above Ike, considering Ike's only strengths over Cloud are throw combos (when Cloud has better setups) and a better recovery

I never said how much Ike is better Cloud. Ike is only slightly better than Cloud, mainly because of his throw combos (which are important in a defensive metagame) and his much better recovery.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I don't believe Cloud is worse than Ike, though the gap between them depends on your perception. I personally don't believe he is VASTLY better, but better is better.

Cloud thrives on a solid whiff punish game, high mobility, incredible frame data, and being generally overtuned in all areas outside of grabs and recovery.

Ike is a bit more well rounded but Cloud is extreme in basically every area that's really important. It's not really a pre-requisite to have throw combos when you can scare people in the neutral game, or even just throw them upwards and chase with Uair (of which Cloud's is likely the best or 2nd best in the game, mind you.)

It's when he gets Limit Break fully charged up that he becomes absolutely insane. Runs faster than ZSS and has Air speed almost as good as Mario's alongside all else, + gains all of his Limit moves which, barring Climhazzard and Finishing Touch, are incredibly strong. Limit Cross Slash is super scary.

This is all my opinion so grain of salt ahoy, but I've spent time on Cloud since the very first hour he came out.

 

[GHNeko]

Simple character that performs well with tons of strengths and a handful of weaknesses that can be compensated for with game knowledge and player skill.

Very much pick up and play, but still has a good skill ceiling due to needing to use his good options intelligently.

Can naturally adapt to a variety of situations on demand as well.

Also one of the most melee feeling characters in the game Kreygasm

 

[FUEGO!]

Also one of the most melee feeling characters in the game Kreygasm

Thank you! Now I don't feel so weird when I tell my friends that he "feels sorta like Melee Marth" to me.

 

[TomaHawk_Hoax]

I don't believe Cloud is worse than Ike, though the gap between them depends on your perception. I personally don't believe he is VASTLY better, but better is better.

Cloud thrives on a solid whiff punish game, high mobility, incredible frame data, and being generally overtuned in all areas outside of grabs and recovery.

Ike is a bit more well rounded but Cloud is extreme in basically every area that's really important. It's not really a pre-requisite to have throw combos when you can scare people in the neutral game, or even just throw them upwards and chase with Uair (of which Cloud's is likely the best or 2nd best in the game, mind you.)

It's when he gets Limit Break fully charged up that he becomes absolutely insane. Runs faster than ZSS and has Air speed almost as good as Mario's alongside all else, + gains all of his Limit moves which, barring Climhazzard and Finishing Touch, are incredibly strong. Limit Cross Slash is super scary.

This is all my opinion so grain of salt ahoy, but I've spent time on Cloud since the very first hour he came out.

Limit Cross Slash kills pretty early as well as his Fsmash.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I mainly use Cloud to counter Sheik, though. But he's truly an excellent character, and my secondary as a result.

Dar4 mentioned Captain Falcon is bad for Cloud due to the latter's inability to gimp him. This is untrue because Cloud can just fire a Limit Blade Beam into the ledge and Falcon's not coming back.

Sheik is bad, yes. But as an Ike main, I feel safer using Cloud against her.

Whether Cloud is better than Ike still remains to be seen. However, in the matchup itself, Cloud > Ike 55:45. Just on Final Destination, the matchup is neutral because Cloud lacks platforms to juggle Ike on. With platform stages, the matchup tilts right into Cloud's favor every time because he can out-disjoint Ike, move faster, and juggle him to death. Plus he has a gimp of his own - Limit Blade Beam vs. Quick Draw. Cloud can even Fair Ike out of Aether or Dair spike him, and his Bair can't be punished on shield. It's a matchup Ike is forced to respect at all times, hoping for offstage advantage to get the early kill.

Regarding other matchups, it's still too early to tell. Cloud is said to have a hard time against Mario, and even ScAtt told me Sonic is bad for him. From personal experience, Palutena is surprisingly bad for Cloud, too, due to her Uair destroying his landing options, Dair included. I've also heard Pikachu is fairly questionable. All things considered, he doesn't seem to have a terrible matchup on anyone, though, and his all-around tools are both great and his moveset is extremely enjoyable.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You ain't ever gonna see a Cloud main admitting that, though.

Cloud is sword-mario

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I mainly use Cloud to counter Sheik, though. But he's truly an excellent character, and my secondary as a result.

Dar4 mentioned Captain Falcon is bad for Cloud due to the latter's inability to gimp him. This is untrue because Cloud can just fire a Limit Blade Beam into the ledge and Falcon's not coming back.

Sheik is bad, yes. But as an Ike main, I feel safer using Cloud against her.

Whether Cloud is better than Ike still remains to be seen. However, in the matchup itself, Cloud > Ike 55:45. Just on Final Destination, the matchup is neutral because Cloud lacks platforms to juggle Ike on. With platform stages, the matchup tilts right into Cloud's favor every time because he can out-disjoint Ike, move faster, and juggle him to death. Plus he has a gimp of his own - Limit Blade Beam vs. Quick Draw. Cloud can even Fair Ike out of Aether or Dair spike him, and his Bair can't be punished on shield. It's a matchup Ike is forced to respect at all times, hoping for offstage advantage to get the early kill.

Regarding other matchups, it's still too early to tell. Cloud is said to have a hard time against Mario, and even ScAtt told me Sonic is bad for him. From personal experience, Palutena is surprisingly bad for Cloud, too, due to her Uair destroying his landing options, Dair included. I've also heard Pikachu is fairly questionable. All things considered, he doesn't seem to have a terrible matchup on anyone, though, and his all-around tools are both great and his moveset is extremely enjoyable.

Can you elaborate further on your experiences with Cloud vs Sheik? I'm in a similar boat. MK's worst MU is Sheik; just like Ike. I was considering Cloud for Sheik.

But I also played Sonic for a long time and many other Sonics that I talk with regularly find it to be a tough MU vs Cloud. A few top players believe it could be even. Its still early so its hard to really pin concrete ratios or anything but since it looks like you're interested in Cloud for the same reasons I am, I'm curious to hear more about your experience in the MU.

It seems like Cloud handles neutral pretty well against her. He has the range and good enough frame data to where he assert himself safely in mid range if needed but approaching without a Limit Break on deck is a bit risky. But LB actually makes people approach you which is huge in itself. Just seems like you need careful LB management and total awareness of your positioning and you can do well. At least from my own personal experiences, that what I've been noticing.