What Dedede needs in the next balance patch. Discussion

[Ripple]

okay now obviously you're going to see most of the same stuff that that the others have said before because I'm going last but I might have some interesting takes on things.

Things definitely needed.

1. Above all else he needs cooldown reduction on waddle toss. Grounded toss is 61 frames and for a projectile that is quite easily blockable imo. that's unacceptable and against someone like fox or someone with good mobility, which now is like 2/3 of the cast. a shielded waddle is like giving them a free smash attack. Waddles are supposed to be our way of getting mobility in the neutral game but the risk of getting one out is dumb against those who know our MU.

2. Faster jab. basically our fastest move other than grab is d-tilt. and this has considerable cool down and doesn't lead into anything productive and isn't even close to safe on shield. Jab is 4 frames slower than grab. I know our jab is actually insanely good, but its too slow, I'd rather take speed for damage in this case.

3. Safer inhale on spit. It's unacceptable when moves are unsafe on hit. period. peach, fox, falco, sonic, and ike can all punish Dedede for spitting them out. and by punish, I mean Dedede has nothing fast so he has to shield anyway.

4. A slightly bigger shield. We currently have the exact same size shield as ganon, Ganon is shorter and MUCH skinnier than Dedede so I don't know why we got screwed in this area despite being the advancing wall archetype. having this small of a shield definitely prevents us from power shielding a majority of the time. fatter characters are easy to PS with and that's not right.


Things not needed but would help/things that would be cool.

1. a higher MIDDLE grab box. Dedede can't grab anyone when he's on the lower end of a slope. He has the lowest standing grab in the game, if they are even on it a little, it'll wiff. with this change he could at least grab people close to him.

2. Waddles with a higher knockback resistance. IDK if you've played brawl minus before but waddles are ****ing impossible to kill because any attack sends them straight up. I would likea happy middle because our guys are so important yet die to any move.

3. slower waddle movement. Our guys walk to fast and just run off the stage too often and I don't always want to throw a new one.

4. Waddles with some form of light armor.

5. Gordos with a higher gravity. all Dedede mains complain that gordo isn't tossed at the same angle as the others, but I'm pretty sure the gravity is the problem, not angle. more gravity would solve this issue and also not let people crouch under what should be a 22% dealing projectile.

6. Medium armor or on "I have someone in my mouth" animation. This is really only for doubles as we are incredibly vulnerable during this at least 1 second period where a stray projectile could ruin some great positional advantages.

in singles this only affects ICs because snake's mines, C4, mortar, and grenades go through this level of armor. and white pikmin will almost never cause an issue with this. not sure how this would affect the IC MU though.



Things we don't need/ I don't care about.

1. No Gordos. I like that I can throw them sometimes, and I do know I can die while recovering while throwing these sometimes but I really don't care that much.

2. A faster initial jump. No.

@9bit
@ victra♥
@ PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
@Fish&Herbs19

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

I feel like Dedede doesn't really need much. The only thing on that list that I would really like to vote for is a faster jab, since it would be nice to see it have a little more use (especially in neutral). Actually, I think that things like his Waddle Dash, Shield size, and Inhale strike a deep and enjoyable golden mean of utility and weakness.

Only other tweak I care much about atm:
I was a little sad today when I realized that throwing a Waddle-Dee at someone does ~4%.
If I want to chip away at someone with Dees, to do something like force an approach, I feel it should deal damage that is a little more meaningful.
Minions dealing something like 9% would feel better, because "ranged harassment" as a gameplan strategy could add up to something noticeable.
Then it may make a measurable difference, and not feel petty or inconsequential.

 

[MVP]

i think he needs to be able to jump-cancel his grounded up-b like bowser's down-b

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Why does he need that?

 

[victra♥]

quick vertical gap closer.

already, charizard and bowser shouldnt even have that option. it feels like one of the many pm gimmicks. that, and those silly actions out of teleported up-b that zelda and mewtwo get, and don't even get me started on tethers

 

[Smur]

I really agree with most of @9bit 's ideas. The lag on waddle tossing makes it a hassle to use it sometimes.

I feel like the Up-air is OK atm.

Gordos are a pain when trying to waddle dash, but like KOkingpin said, I usually hear it and I'll (unfortunately) have to use the rest of my jumps to waddle dash, or just recover some other way. I'm ok with it.

I don't think a faster Jab would be OP, it would be like DK's. It kind of already is, but just a littler slower on start up.

Kinda Indifferent about the bigger shield.

The INHALE. It's good....just...ehh. I don't wanna be that guy that just wants his main insanely buffed, but Inhale just seems too slow. I think it should be at least a little bit closer to Kirby's in terms of speed like @ victra♥ says.

N-air...the hitboxes seem a little weird on this move. They're more prevalent on his back than his actual belly (where you would expect it to be). Maybe increase the time of the initial (bigger) hitbox?

Up-B, also a really great move, but maybe make it sweetspotable? D3 Just can't recover vs certain moves like Marth's D-tilt or any move remotely similar.

Waddle Dee/Doos. This probably isn't necessary, but sometimes when one of my Waddles is hit lightly and I expect it to come back into the camera frame...It comes down 5 minutes after I expect it to or not at all. Maybe increase the gravity on them a bit and add a triggering sound effect (like the Gordo throw) to let us know when a Waddle dies? (Rip it from a kirby game? I think they make a pop sound when they die, lol)

 

[Wade Benedict]

A few things that I want changed with Dedede are his Jab, Up B, Neutral B and his Waddle Toss.

Personally for me I'd like his Jab to be a little more like DK's. I'd like them to get rid of the third part of the Jab and cause the second hit of the Jab to pop the opponent more into the air, making at a good combo tool.

I like his Up B for recovering but I would like it to somehow be changed into a more viable attack option when used on the ground. I'd like anybody else's input on that one.

I rarely use his Neutral B. I just can't find any good use for it other than shooting the opponent of the edge with it to put them in a bad spot, but Dedede's throw is better for that. I also can't find anyway to combo with it.

His Waddle Toss is great but I'd like it to be a little faster. Gordos are cool but I think that should make it so that you can't throw any Gordos while in the air so that you may not get screwed over while Waddle Gliding or they can make it so that you can Waddle Dash with the Gordos at least. Also make the Gordo's trajectory when thrown the same as a Waddle's.

 

[Smur]

@ Wade Benedict

D3's jab kinda works like DK's with the exception of being a little slower. You can already combo into it (I like to grab), just press A twice instead of three times .

I've recently found Neutral B to be reallly good for trading stocks or even gimping. One thing you can try at high % is d-throw next to a ledge, short hop B and just gravitate to where your opponent is. Usually they end up in your mouth, and if not, you can usually make it back. Even still, I do think that it needs to be a lot faster.

I agree with everything else tho, considering someone can be creative enough to make Up-B out of shield viable lol.

 

[Wade Benedict]

@ Wade Benedict

D3's jab kinda works like DK's with the exception of being a little slower. You can already combo into it (I like to grab), just press A twice instead of three times .

I've recently found Neutral B to be reallly good for trading stocks or even gimping. One thing you can try at high % is d-throw next to a ledge, short hop B and just gravitate to where your opponent is. Usually they end up in your mouth, and if not, you can usually make it back. Even still, I do think that it needs to be a lot faster.

I agree with everything else tho, considering someone can be creative enough to make Up-B out of shield viable lol.

I got to play the game again the other day and I got to test out Dedede's and DK's jabs. Dedede's jab just kind of had the opponent sitting in the same spot, no matter what percent they were at they wouldn't go any higher into the air after the second hit. DK's however sent the opponent higher into the air on the second hit as the opponent's percentage got higher and higher. I think it would be awesome for Dedede's to also send the opponent higher into the air. I think it would be a really awesome combo to Jab at the opponent, have the second hit send the opponent flying up into the air, then jump up and do a Forward Air on them sending them off the stage for a potential kill or at least putting them at a disadvantage off stage.

As for using Neutral B for trading stocks, I am not a huge fan of that kind of gameplay. It's just not fun for me and I kinda view it as a really cheap move for that reason. What I'd like for the move is to have some sort of guaranteed combo when you spit the opponent out of your mouth. Another thing I read from other people on here is being able to spit items back out as a projectile. I would really like that. Maybe have something like, the more damage the item does, the more damage your item does when you spit it back out.

Also possibly the most important thing we need for Dedede is to give him his proper title back as King Dedede.

 

[Smur]

I got to play the game again the other day and I got to test out Dedede's and DK's jabs. Dedede's jab just kind of had the opponent sitting in the same spot, no matter what percent they were at they wouldn't go any higher into the air after the second hit. DK's however sent the opponent higher into the air on the second hit as the opponent's percentage got higher and higher.

Also possibly the most important thing we need for Dedede is to give him his proper title back as King Dedede.

Think of it more as a combo or set-up tool. It's the same as his down throw, strictly DI dependent. They won't go any further compared to 0% and 999%.
Nothing's cheap if you want to win, use those inhales!
I heard somewhere that the "King" in King Dedede was used for the Mewtwo or Roy selection announcer.

 

[Ripple]

Jab and inhale are amazing as is, there is no need to change them at all really. Grounded up-b has its uses against certain people and is really disrupts their flow if used correctly. The only thing DDD needs anymore is faster waddle toss

 

[NickLeo]

My input on everything named:

-UpB, Uair, and Nair are all perfect how they are. I don't think any of them should be changed

-A faster jab is somewhat necessary. D3's jab 1 and jab 2 have so much time in between that they barely ever string together. Besides, a faster jab wouldn't be game-breaking

-Only getting gordos while grounded is a decent idea to prevent waddledash recovery mishaps

-I think that waddle-dee/doo endlag is actually appropriate. The move isn't meant to be used like a standard projectile, and it should only be used when you have down time to pollute the stage thus allowing you to waddle dash everywhere. If the endlag was decreased it would change the overall purpose of the move as a whole and I honestly think that it gets enough mileage out of just setting up for waddle dashing.

-Reduced jump squat would be really nice but isn't a must-have so I'm indifferent on that topic

-A slightly larger shield is something D3 really does need. Because he is so fat, he needs a shield that can actually cover his massive body. I find myself getting shield stabbed with a full/almost full shield far too often

-I agree that you should never be punished for successfully landing an inhale. I think characters should lose the ability to control how far they travel in the star form. It really tarnishes inhale for any hope of followups and adds a fear of getting attacked out of

-Above all, I really like g-reg's idea on spitting items out with inhale in the form of a star. This would turn a really frustrating restriction (accidentally inhaling an item or waddle) into a new tool for dealing with items and giving d3 a slightly improved, yet still mediocre projectile game. Plus it would be a really fun change ^_^

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Buffs:
Jab more reliably string together and 1f faster.
Dair more reliably strings.
Swallow being a d.I trap move if opponent breaks out going in wrong direction it leads to a fair. Breaking out causes 6% damage. Dedede moves left to right to make them guess direction to d.I upon breakout.

Nerf- swallow loses "some" of its armor. eat 9% max.
Back throw damage reduced to 14% or 13%.
Fair damage reduced by 1%.
Tweak - can't get gordos in the air.
Up throw allows you to react out of it sooner, but damage of throw is reduced.

 

[Une]

D3's jab kinda works like DK's with the exception of being a little slower.

lol so 11 frames is a little slower then 3 huh. these guys.

 

[JRad]

I've been playing DDD on and off ever since his release. These are the buffs I think he needs:

- Slightly faster jab (2 frames in my opinion but at least 1)
- Less lag time on waddle toss - if he only got 1 change, this would be it for me imo.
- Slightly bigger shield
- Better followups on inhale. I find that move hard to use in a lot of matchups onstage

Something that would be cool but not needed or wanted, waddle toss cancel just like you cancel samus missiles.

 

[victra♥]

I've been playing DDD on and off ever since his release. These are the buffs I think he needs:

- Slightly faster jab (2 frames in my opinion but at least 1)
- Less lag time on waddle toss - if he only got 1 change, this would be it for me imo.
- Slightly bigger shield
- Better followups on inhale. I find that move hard to use in a lot of matchups onstage

Something that would be cool but not needed or wanted, waddle toss cancel just like you cancel samus missiles.

Yeah if anything, all the other changes would be pretty big buffs. The ones you mentioned here are good QOL changes that would put DDD more in line with the rest of the cast imo

 

[ECTO]

I find he's pretty solid in a lot of areas. Waddle Toss could maybe use some quality of life changes, make it so that you can maybe dash cancel like ZSS's Neutral-B. In smaller stages I find myself just asking for punishment when I throw them out. But honestly, I'd fine with as is, you don't want him to become a projectile spammer.

Also, his Up-Air and Neutral Air seem to have the same function. I know Up-Air is disjointed, but the neutral-air has a high hitbox anyways, they seem to have the same function to me.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I don't exactly want to bump a thread that hasn't been used in half a month, but I think this is the most appropriate place to put down my thoughts regarding my main.

I've been thinking for the past couple of months (actually longer, but more in-depth recently) on the Gordos and how it affects Dedede's game plan. Specifically, you can't really plan around them. I think the ability to call one out at will is important...and I realize that sounds "stupid good" as put earlier in the thread. My own personal thoughts on how this could be implemented:

• 1 Gordo per stock- Kinda obvious I think. The Gordo is a slow and very telegraphed projectile as it is, and Dedede barely benefits from it unless he manages to land one point-blank. This would force the player to pick and choose the right moment to toss one, and if you miss that's it until you lose your current stock.
• Come out on a timer- I.e. like Wario. I don't like this option quite as much, but it would essentially force the next toss to be a Gordo after a minute or so has passed (probably more like 1 min 30 secs - 2 mins?). If you are caught off stage while holding one (signified by him flashing), you'd have to consider tossing it out or try to recover without Waddle Dashing

Regardless, I think in that case you would need to slightly increase the start-up animation for a Gordo toss (in the air) so a point-blank toss isn't as liable to kill, perhaps also reducing the knock back on the move some. Other than that, though, I really do not see the issue in giving Dedede the option and allowing more resource management to enter his game. Lucario has a powerful projectile he can call at will (and refresh after so many hits!), Luigi can store a frankly powerful KO move at will that also assists recovery, and G&W can literally KO people on a fresh stock with his RNG hammer. I don't think it would be unhealthy for the game if we took some of the RNG out of Dedede's move while placing a limitation on its use.

Another thing that could be looked at is his recovery. I don't know if it would be possible to implement this or not based on the mechanics, but he probably should only have one (maybe two) Waddle Dash per air time. The ability to Waddle Dash multiple times per air time is crazy good. If he recovers from high enough in the air, you can completely void your opponent's attempt to edge guard with little to no skill involved. I think having slightly less horizontal movement on Up B wouldn't hurt, either.

I think Dedede's character design is incredibly solid in PM and he's honestly one of the characters I enjoy using the most, but I can't help but want to manage his resources some more. I also think his recovery is a bit too good, and I think that even with the changes I suggested he would still have very powerful recovery options. I feel that he only needs a little more nudging to feel truly finished.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Another thing that could be looked at is his recovery. I don't know if it would be possible to implement this or not based on the mechanics, but he probably should only have one (maybe two) Waddle Dash per air time. The ability to Waddle Dash multiple times per air time is crazy good. If he recovers from high enough in the air, you can completely void your opponent's attempt to edge guard with little to no skill involved. I think having slightly less horizontal movement on Up B wouldn't hurt, either.

this would also hurt his on stage game like if D3 got ran over by a train, giga bowser, ganon in beast form, and other painful interactions

 

[GoomySmash]

As a Samus main in melee, upB out of shield is usually a safe option. Out of habit I sometimes do it with Dedede, which actually works out because I think he has some armor in the beginning of the animation. Maybe just to give DDD better out of shield options we can make the first few frames of upB invincible and not just armored?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Dedede doesn't have armor on his up b, as far as I know, but it does have a hitbox as he goes up.

 

[Ripple]

Grounded up b has armor

 

[Smur]

Grounded up b has armor

Have you found yourself actually using the armor of grounded up-b? Seems extremely situational imo but I'm not that creative.

 

[Ripple]

no one even knows when the armor starts or finishes so I never risk it. I've asked several PMDT and no one back there cares about DDD

 

[KeithTheGeek]

People in general ignore him, I don't really understand why though. Hasn't somebody looked through his hitboxes and frame data already though?

 

[CASH£]

Regarding Gordo's, there's two particularly attractive options for the Waddle Dee system from where I'm standing:

A. Make the Waddle Toss have a set order. Something along the lines of Dee > Dee > Doo > Dee > Dee > Doo > Dee > Dee > Gordo > Repeat. It'd require a bit of thought but it's not hard work to simply count how many Dee's/Doo's you've had since the last Gordo and adapt accordingly.

B. Have some kind of warning signal for when the next throw is going to be a Gordo. I'm not sure what would be the best way of doing this - visually speaking - but Game and Watch's Judgement system comes to mind (with the lights above the hammer indicating odd or even for the next number). If they really wanted to go all out on it, they could take a page out of Luigi's book too. When you throw a Waddle Dee, there'd be some kind of flash or indicator that the next one will be a Gordo. When you next use the Waddle Toss, there'd be some button you could press to "save" the Gordo until next time, a la the Green Missile.

The first option seems like the "safe" option for balancing the Waddle Toss, but I'd personally be far more interested in option B - some way to control, manipulate or stack options for your next Waddle Toss could seriously mix up Dedede's approach game and make for safer recoveries without fear of Gordos.

 

[FalconOwnage]

Wouldn't having a gordo at your immediate disposal be extremely powerful? Doesn't a gordo have more knockback than Samus's charge shot?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

The idea would be to balance it out in some way, such as having a limitation on when you can pull it out or how often you get one. Plus, other characters also can essentially pull more powerful moves out at random, and have some degree of control over it (Luigi misfire, G&W 9 hammer).

IMO, even if they went ahead and nerfed the power of the Gordo it's a change that should still happen in some way or form, if only to keep character design on some internally consistent logic.

I would also ask for some more control over which waddles we can pull based on how long the button is pressed as well, and have the Dees behavior being changed to jump after X number of frames rather than at random, but really the main thing that needs to address is how the Gordo works currently. Being able to pull a powerful attack out with no warning or way to work around can sometimes give us undeserved KOs, but at the same time it prevents the user from being able to actually work with the attack.

I dunno, I think it would be fun and rewarding to be able to set up traps with the Gordo once we have access to one, and I feel it would be more in line with the game's design philosophy. If the power needs to be decreased or some other area of Dedede addressed with such a change, so be it, but I don't see how having limited access and control to the Gordo (in place of random access) would be overpowering.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

And we got none of this. Absolutely ****ing none of it.

We did get an up b buff that makes the landing safer, but we also got 9 frames later IASA frames on waddle toss, which is a straight up nerf.

why

 

[Key Chain]

And we got none of this. Absolutely ****ing none of it.

We did get an up b buff that makes the landing safer, but we also got 9 frames later IASA frames on waddle toss, which is a straight up nerf.

why

I read the changelog before they added that information on the Waddle Toss IASA. went to sleep happy with the ”reasonable” nerfs and minor changes then I wake up to this. I guess I need to try it out first but this a killjoy regardless.

 

[Ripple]

Is it me or does ddd feel extremely clunky now? Not even including waddledashing. He just feels all around slower

 

[Rᴏb]

I'm not seeing it. He feels better now since he can WL from his regular jump.

I wish he got a slightly faster jab, but I think he's gonna wreck regardless.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I haven't had a chance to really play DDD yet, in the time I had with 3.5 I mainly messed around with ganon, is the window for waddle dashing a lot smaller? Is it even possible?

 

[Smur]

Is it me or does ddd feel extremely clunky now? Not even including waddledashing. He just feels all around slower

I was looking for someone who agreed with me on this. Feels as if his patch notes are missing something.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I agree with you.

 

[Kar]

I wish his recovery was harder to shine spike, Fox has so much easy kill options on DDD.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

The only thing that really felt noticeably different to me is Waddle Dashing being slightly more difficult to do and up b eating jumps when you get knocked out of it. IMO, both of these things are totally reasonable and thankfully D3 plays more or less the same as he did in 3.02 aside from those slight nerfs.

However, he really does need the gordo changes we keep asking for, especially now that his recovery has been nerfed. I still hate the fact that one of the main cruxes of our game is based around RNG. I think we still ended up with a net gain just because our character was touched less than several of the others, but still...just allowing us to control when and where we throw the gordo could be that last little push he needs.

 

[yellowdee]

I was looking for someone who agreed with me on this. Feels as if his patch notes are missing something.

I think I may know what's up here: they took out the flashing effects in debug mode when you L-cancel, so you now can't tell if you executed it as easily.

I would try for another move without knowing I hadn't L-canceled properly, and DDD would just stand there. Frustrating!

 

[CuteDogIRL]

I know this post was made .for 3.5 but it still applies.

I want gordo's gone, on a set order like Cash said or I want gordo's nerfed and thrown by choice rather than chance. The last one could be done by pressing a+b like with Lucario or something, as long as it's something you always have access to I'm fine with it (unlike DK's neutral b or Wario's waft for example),. Killing someone with a gordo doesn't feel good because it was just luck and getting killed by one also doesn't feel right. Also getting a gordo when trying to waddledash is annoying especially offstage.

I don't like the idea of only throwing them on the ground, just change it all together.

Other than that our great monarch is perfect, all hail the king.

EDIT: I was wrong about that last bit. Spittable waddles would be really cool too. Not as useful or important as the gordo thing but it would still be hype.

EDIT 2: when you have thrown 2 waddles and both are in hitstun you can't throw a new waddle. You will get the animation but you can't throw one. I think that when a new waddle gets created the oldest waddle goes away and if that waddle is in hitstun the other one goes away so when both are in hitstun the one you've just thrown goes away immediately. Can this be fixed?

EDIT 3 Will anyone still read this?: I hate how waddles are stopped by any type of hitbox. They have absolutely no priority over anything because their hurtbox is bigger than their hitbox.
For example when you throw fox offstage and he is going to use his up b. If you throw a waddle and hit him during the startup of the up b the waddle will just bounce off because he has no priority over the extremely weak hitbox around fox when he is charging. Waddles are even stopped by foxes laser which doesn't even make sense because those hitboxes are supposed to have no hitstun. I think this is unfair because every other projectile in the game would go straight through in both cases (I think). So if either the waddles could get some small type of armor or if the waddle hitboxes would become bigger than or as big as the hurtboxes that would be much appreciated.

 

[sneakytako]

I want up-b to have a stronger hitbox on the rising animation.

I want dtilt to have stronger KB.

I want fthrow to be more interesting.

I want bair to be less laggy when landing.

Do itttttttttt.