What D3 Needs to be better

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#1
Just a TINY lil aerial drift speed.

or a counter.

or make his regular a punch attack different. Make it safe on block or something.

or make his charge hammer into like a forward b like captain falcon. doing less damage and just helps set up combos.
 
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Phubs

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#2
Punch -> jab
Block -> shield
Charge hammer -> jet hammer

Also D3 is not really a combo oriented character, if he knocks someone up he's not really gonna get a whole lot out of it
 

Phubs

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#5
But any move they give d3 will have too much lag afterwards to actually combo into fair on a good player

And I agree with taco, jet hammer is great for stuffing an approach as it is
 
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Phubs

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#8
I like releasing it right after it switched animations so your opponent thinks they're safe, but then BOOM you're halfway across the stage and they're flying away
 

RPGsFTW

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#13
Honestly, there are some aspects of Smash 4 Dedede that I wish were on PM Dedede.

- A Dsmash that knocks people away instead of backwards would be cool, but for no particular reason to be fair. I don't know if it really has a reason to send backwards either. I mean, use it as a Dthrow mix up, but often times I feel like I'd rather launch them away then behind me, though it can be useful sometimes.

- I was never a fan of his Uair, PM or Smash 4, so it's hard to say what I feel about it. I barely get use out of it. I DO use it, but I juggle more with Utilts or Nairs over Uairs.

- His Dair definitely gets less use out of me now, I feel, with the shortened range, though I still use it. I always wanted him to have a meteor though, so his Smash 4 Dair in PM would be sick, imaging him actually combing out of it. I don't know if it'd be "too good" on a character like Dedede who recovers pretty well and also weighs a lot, but that would make sense if that was why we don't do that.

Otherwise, it's hard to say what I think should be different. I hate his Fsmash, but that's pretty much what Jet Hammer is for, you could say. I mostly feel like his moveset is pretty solid.
 

Ridel

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#14
- I was never a fan of his Uair, PM or Smash 4, so it's hard to say what I feel about it. I barely get use out of it. I DO use it, but I juggle more with Utilts or Nairs over Uairs.
Honestly I just want U-Air to come out slightly faster. There is no reason why I shouldn't be able to do Up-Throw --> Up-Air on Ness without getting hit by his D-Air. Other then that I think it serves it's purpose well enough.
 

Phubs

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#15
The point of d smash hitting behind is for better follow-ups when you hit then at lower percents
 

Ridel

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#16
The point of d smash hitting behind is for better follow-ups when you hit then at lower percents
Ehh I can see where he is coming from. I have never been able to get follow-ups with D-Smash at low percents. It's just not very consistent IMO.
 

RPGsFTW

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#17
Honestly I just want U-Air to come out slightly faster. There is no reason why I shouldn't be able to do Up-Throw --> Up-Air on Ness without getting hit by his D-Air. Other then that I think it serves it's purpose well enough.
This is why I mentioned that I've had infinitely more success juggling with multiple Utilts or Nairs. Especially at low %, Uthrow into one or two Utilts typically works on most characters for me, Ness included.

Ehh I can see where he is coming from. I have never been able to get follow-ups with D-Smash at low percents. It's just not very consistent IMO.
I agree, it is very inconsistent. I feel like hitting the Dsmash off of a tech chase Dthrow is already hard enough as is and it really never nets me too much reward besides more % dealt due to it being a smash rather than a throw. But, in a way, I could always just do a forward or back throw instead of down in the first place and get a consistent 13 or so % each time. His Dsmash is very much like Ganondorf's to me. You throw it out sometimes, if even once, in a match and you'll probably miss. If you hit, you are surprised you did and you might not even follow it up. I don't like either of their Dsmashes, to be honest.
 

Ridel

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#18
This is why I mentioned that I've had infinitely more success juggling with multiple Utilts or Nairs. Especially at low %, Uthrow into one or two Utilts typically works on most characters for me, Ness included.
I can't seem to get a N-Air off Ness either. Guess I'll just have to find another option.
 

Key Chain

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#19
I agree, it is very inconsistent. I feel like hitting the Dsmash off of a tech chase Dthrow is already hard enough...You throw it out sometimes, if even once, in a match and you'll probably miss. If you hit, you are surprised you did and you might not even follow it up...
I personally don't agree with any of this. on some characters you can wavedash after Dthrow and the Dsmash will connect on most of their tech options including missed tech and I find on most characters, you just need to run after Dthrow and cancel the run with a Dsmash for it to connect so I dont think its difficult.

now about throwing it out sometimes and having trouble following up, I feel like if I dont get a fair after Dsmash, I atleast send them off stage where I am perfectly set up to attempt an edgeguard. I guess what im saying is I dont have much of a problem with the move or how it hits people but if I could have something changed about it, it would be it's start up frames. it comes out too slow and could definitely benefit from a speed increase WITHOUT a nerf on its endlag. lol why do they feel they need to nerf him with every buff?
 

G13_Flux

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#20
the biggest problem DDD has is poor frame data. hate to be blunt, but you guys really shouldnt be complaining about uair.. like it goes through every disjointed dair in the game. dsmash i dont thing is a problem either. i think its behind angle is very useful when youre in certain positions on the stag.

id really just like to see him get a jumpsquat and empty landing lag reduction, and have dtilt start earlier on like frame 5, and then shave some end lag off it and cut the duration of active hitboxes.

im also a fan of the proposed idea ripple had of making his hammer attacks unclankable. slightly quicker jab wouldnt be bad either, although the top two IMO are the most important.
 
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G13_Flux

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#22
haha it probably has more overall lag because the last active hitbox is likely placed more than 6 frames away from the autocancel window. ill test it later though. seriously though, the huge outlier that is DDDs (and bowsers) 6 frame landing lag is just terrible. its directly contributes to biggest hole in DDDs game atm. with a character so heavily dependent on frequent air > ground (and vice versa) transitions, and with already very slow moves, it really adds up in neutral. i think it should just be dropped to 4 frames like 90 percent of the rest of the cast. I think like 4 other characters have a 5 frame landing lag, but again i think that should just be completely normalized to 4.
 

| F. |

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#23
His Smash 4 down tilt along with his down smash sending at a semi-spike angle would do him massive favors.
 

Ridel

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#24
His Smash 4 down tilt along with his down smash sending at a semi-spike angle would do him massive favors.
The semi spike d-smash doesn't really fell necessary imo. He already has a ton of edge-guarding set-ups and giving him a slower bulkier one doesn't seem very useful over something more simple with a similar reward. D-tilt is so trash at this point that I've completely erased it from my play. I think it only needs a simple change though rather then a massive overhaul. Maybe less start-up so it can be cc'ed effectively and make it pop people up a little to set-up for an aerial. Don't know if that would be too strong since it would give Dedede an easy kill set-up so maybe you can give it a hitbox increase and keep it's angle the same.
 

Ripple

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#25
Alright guys, I guess I'll humor myself and post what I think DDD needs again.

First of all let's look at what are DDD's bad MUs and let's look for some common themes between them.


-3:sonic::diddy::toonlink::pikachu2::lucario::gw::ivysaur:
-2:zerosuitsamus::lucas::jigglypuff::peach::falco::mewtwopm:
-1:wolf::squirtle::zelda::warioc::link2::yoshi2::mario2:

These are what I believe to be DDD's losing MUs, the degree of which he loses could be argued for some characters like Jiggs, G&W, and some of the -1 characters but I don't think anyone would argue about anyone else.

first theme one should notice is really good multi hit moves:

Lucas, wolf, sonic, mewtwo ivy, and squirtle are good examples of this. Lucas' nair, wolf's nair, sonics spin on shield, mewtwo's nair, ivy nair, and squirtle's d-tilt are essentially guaranteed shield pokes on us because our shield provides such poor coverage. and I'm not even exaggerating, if you have anything below full shield, you will get shield poked EVEN when you shield angle like I do. these characters' moves aren't even "one and done" moves. they all get GREAT conversions off of landing their multi hit moves. Lucario and falco also fit into this category since they apply such great shield pressure that our shield can't cover all of their attacks so fast. they can look at where our shield is and d-tilt or jump > dair

another theme: Items

Link, Peach, TL, and diddy all have great projectiles with bomb, banana, and turnips. and we can do nothing about them. this results from us being slow and having item pick up ranges and tosses that are some of the worst in the cast. there is no counterplay to items in these MUs, you simply have to avoid them at all costs.

3rd theme: raw kill power

being a semi fastfaller and a super heavy help but when you're one of the slowest and most commital characters in the game, someone with a very strong punish game can practically negate our survivability. G&W, Wario, pika, Link, mario, zelda, Jiggs all have very strong punish options and most often kill us sub 130%.

4th theme: hard to follow up and even grab.

Pikachu, peach, sonic, jiggs, mewtwo, yoshi and G&W give DDD problems because we can't do anything to them with our grabs. not only is grabbing these characters difficult but even when we do get a grab, d-throw actually isn't very effective against these few and up-throw to up-air doesn't work on these characters except on sonic below like 30%. with our grab game practically negated we fold pretty hard because all we have left is dair and waddles.

can any of these problems be fixed by modifying DDD and not changing how he interacts with the rest of the cast?

mostly yes

1. buffing our shield slightly helps us not get dominated by those that get can freely throw out multihits on us and get confirms.

2. improving item grab ranges and tossing frame data. this doesn't affect cast wide interactions with DDD, only those who can spawn items, which are only the characters I mentioned and ROB. Actually improving his jump squat from 6 > 5 would actually help this considerably also.

3. Raw kill power doesn't need to be fixed or changed.

4. Improve inhale as our "secondary" grab. inhale has its uses in all MUs but we don't dominate any character because of it because its the worst of the command grabs. We don't get any follow up/mix up/hat or even tech chase. I believe have a simple suggestion

inhaling someone can transition to you grabbing them when grounded. I think this is great to the problem imo because it reinforces the idea that DDD is a grab centered character. landing inhale is easier than landing a grab on those characters in most cases but it still wouldn't give him too much power against those characters he can already easily inhale such as bowser


The first 2 fixes should heavily be considered since they help round out his MUs without affecting his others. we don't beat characters because of our shield game and we lose MUs partly because of our item toss problems. the 3rd one should be toyed with because his command grab is a very poor move as it stands right now and it has the potential to help in the MUs where his standing grab is extremely difficult to land and where his follow ups don't exist.


That's looking outwardly. now how about inwardly. does DDD's kit have any glaring weaknesses to it, or something that should just generally be improved. this is just what I think should be looked at but obviously not all things are equally needed

Excessive landing lag / start up / commitment on some of his moves
Empty - 6
Fair - 16
Dair - 11
Nair - 11
Bair - 11
Uair - 10

These numbers might not seem like they are too high but in reality its these numbers +7. DDD's fastest ground option comes out on frame 7 so landing is a huge commitment unless you plan plan is to shield or land away from them. imo, all of DDD's aerials should see a reduction in landing lag and empty hop should be 4 across the board; seeing as DDD is one of the true grapplers in the game, he should function akin to other grapplers from other games, which is slightly longer than usual start up on moves (which he already has) but still having low cool down on moves (or in the case of doing empty hop, not being in more lag for doing nothing). I would be fine if DDD continued to have no move faster than frame 7 since thats how grapplers seem to work but cool down on things needs to be shaved off.

Jab is absolutely fine with its cool down but it isn't fine on its start up. frame 9 start up but it can't hit anyone until 10. his commitment is part of why this move is bad, just empty hop and jab takes 16 frames at least to come out. Jab should tie for his fastest move. frame 7. I shouldn't have to mention that it should hit someone in front of him on frame 7, not be in the z-axis on frame 7.

D-tilt - tied for fastest move for frame 7 which is good, but this move has huge commitment issues. IASA on frame 35. I suggested a complete rework of this move and I still do. there is no reason to use this move in any situation. CC grab is better and edgeguarding can be done with other moves. Remove the sour spot that lasts 10 frames. change the sweet spot to an angle that favors DDD's strength of edgeguarding.
something like 9%, 30 BKB, 90KBG, and angle of something like 40. IASA on something between 25 and 28.

Up-tilt - great start up. acceptable cool down. one "issue" with is move I will list later since it isn't imperative to be looked at.

F-smash - Extreme start up on 42, having 12 more frames of start up than the next longest starting up move in the game
and its only the sour spot. Long cool down also. The only use this move has is edgeguarding ike. there's no point in having a super strong move if I have no places to use it except in one super situational time. its start up needs to be lowered to something like 36. go ahead and subtract 1% and 10BKB. having a F-smash, even if its weaker would be better if I could attempt to throw it out even in 2x as many situations than it currently is used in. this move is probably one of the few exceptions I'm willing to count for cool down since it will be one of the strongest moves in the game.

D-smash - Fine as is, good start up, good cool down.

Up-smash - it was a step in the right direction making the start up faster by 3 frames but the cool down didn't need to be increased by 3 frames. I suggest that the 3 frames be removed.


Dash attack - Fine? IDK. hilarious move, and not that useful

Inhale - Absolutely not fine just talking about commitment. 17 frames start up. 40 frames of forced inhaling, and then 17 frames of cooldown. total of 77 frames of commitment for something that gives 10% and some stage positioning.

Side-b - aerial side-b is fine with its 40 or so frames of cool down for its use in the neutral but grounded side-b is not fine. 63 frames of cool down. reduction of this to something like 55 would already do him wonders.

down-b - probably another exception. doesn't need less cool down because it could do 30%

up-b. no changes

I wrote a lot but I'm not asking for a lot. just that DDD's cool down needs to be looked at if his grab continues to be his fastest move.

I honestly don't think anything else is wrong with his moveset in general which is pretty great. I only have a couple "fluff" suggestions.

First off.

1. Make Down-b feel less clunky.

it takes 25 frames to turn around and then start walking backwards even though you can cancel turning around by releasing it on frame 1 of turning around. this wouldn't even be a buff really, itd just make him feel less clunky. reduce turn around time from 25 > 10

Reduce jump squat. not sure why but DDD's jump squat is 7 during the animation. 7 > 6

reduce landing lag on it too. once again, you cancel it frame 1 of landing. it just allow more movement.
12 > 8

2. reduce the amount of time needed to fall through a platform after an aerial jump.

it surprisingly takes a long time to fall through a platform after a jump. holding down doesn't allow you to pass through them. not sure exactly how long, but I do know it takes over 45 frames.

3. extend the invincibility on DDD's head on up-tilt until the hitbox goes away.

DDD's head practically quadruples in size and loses every to every attack even when it looks like they should trade.
 

G13_Flux

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#28
very happy that you mentioned empty landing lag and jumpsquat. those things absolutely need to be addressed. ive been pushing for that for awhile now, and not just to DDD (bowsers another culprit).

inhale, shield, and dtilt adjustments are the other things that stick out the most as a couple of the more important things. i wasnt aware of the item grab range issues before however. interesting to know.
 
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