What buffs does Kirby need?

[Dessa]

And Ganondorf could teleport and use swords in his games, but instead he gets a Captain Falcon clone moveset \(o_o)/

If you wanna stick to the games, keep his movespeed the same (maybe a little more runspeed) and do that thing I talked about, where he could inhale projectiles like in the game, and spit them out as stars, or swallow them to get copy abilities if it was a neutral B :D

Ganondorf really deserves his own set of B moves, and maybe an added sword on some of his As. Nonetheless, Ganon isn't playable in any games except Smash, so there's a lot of room for interpretation. Characters from games with direct control tend to control like they do from their franchises. Mario is acrobatic, luigi jumps high and slides, Link is heavy and deliberate, Samus is floaty. A kirby with high air speed would be really off. In his games, a slow air speed is what balances out the otherwise amazing power of flight, while all of his best moves are executed from the ground.

I'm all for having a more viable Kirby, but it should always keep in mind the core concept of a character's style. Balance him via other factors if you need to. Given the huge diversity of moves Kirby has throughout his games, I would look to those before altering his movement directly.

 

[Doomsday]

If I were to give a sakarai a list of buffs that Kirby needed ( even tho I'm fine without them) they would probably be; MAKE UTHROW A KILL THROW, have dair actually true combo into a smash attack, and maybe either higher priority aerials or a decent boost to ground speed.

 

[Doomsday]

We also have to remember that every Kirby main plays him differently. What I might think of as a stupid buff might greatly enhance someone else's game. So different buffs should be expected

 

[TimG57867]

Hello everyone. New member and Kirby main here. I noticed this thread and thought it'd be the best place to start giving my input. Now as someone who's been playing Kirby since the game's launch, here are the buffs I think he needs to get in that area of characters that are really good yet still fair to fight against:

• As many here have stated, the Up Throw really needs to kill sooner. F-Throw buff was much appreciated, but it just lets him rack up damage easily. He still can't get any kill moves off it so he needs a Throw to help him clench it out when at high percents. I say it should kill 30-40% earlier.
• Up Smash and Down Smash need less startup. So many characters can bop you when you touch their shield or spot dodge you, but Up Smash and Down Smash come out way to slow for that to work. They shouldn't be spammable like Mario's but they should come out fast enough to nail your opponent when you shield or spot dodge them.
• N-Air needs to come out faster. Characters like Duck Hunt and Villager benefit from having N-Airs that can help deal with pressure. But Kirby's N-Air doesn't come out fast enough to get him out of combo situations. Since Kirby's so light, I think it's fair that he gets an N-Air to make people back off.
• Just like N-Air, the Down B should also have it's startup reduced. Because Kirby's light and floaty, he's really susceptible to being killed off the top by characters with good jumps like Sonic, Sheik, and Greninja. A Down B that comes out faster could really get Kirby out of juggle situations, but right now, it has so much startup that your opponent will easily hit you out of it if they're already on your tail. It doesn't create stars to protect your landing like Yoshi and Dedede's do so faster startup seems fair.
• Final Cutter needs to have its startup (and possibly end lag reduced) . It would compensate for Kirby's slow air speed a bit during recovery. The cutter wave also needs to get its range increased as approach options are something Kirby is in dire need of.
• Dash attack should be improved so that the hit boxes connect better. Also have the last hit box kill at super high percents.
• Finally the other aerials. F-Air should auto-cancel on short hop, B-Air should have hit box size increase, and Up-Air should have less end lag for better combos. D-Air should also have a frame taken off the end lag and have more guaranteed confirm into D-Smash.

I am aware that this is wishful thinking but I feel that if Kirby got these buffs he'd be darn-near perfect for what he is.

 

[Asdioh]

About the subject of air speed: I think it's worth noting the difference from Brawl to 4. I'm pretty sure this website is accurate.

In Brawl, Kirby had the 11th slowest airspeed... he was faster, if only by a little, than 10 characters. He had more airspeed than Dedede, Luigi, Meta Knight, Ivysaur, Ice Climbers, Link, Olimar, Diddy Kong, Ganondorf, and Sheik. Not counting characters not in Smash 4, he was faster than 8 characters. His airspeed was also "0.85."

In Smash 4, Kirby has the 4th slowest airspeed, being faster than only 3 characters: Dedede, Luigi, Ganondorf. His airspeed is lower as well: "0.8." The other characters? Meta Knight jumped a number of spots, going from 0.752 airspeed to 0.99. Link went up a little, from 0.8084 to 0.88. Olimar stayed the same at 0.82. Diddy: 0.8272 to 0.88. Sheik, of course, jumped a massive amount: 0.846 to 1.1. In perspective, Sheik went from bottom 10 airspeed to top 15 airspeed. Meta Knight went from bottom 3, to 32, out of a cast of 55. Or you could say he jumped about 20 spots, it's hard to say exactly with the different characters and different number of characters between games.

Just look around. Of the bottom tier airspeed in Brawl, Ganondorf and Kirby went down, when everyone around them stayed the same or went up. The characters right above Kirby: Fox/ROB/Peach/Falco, all went up a good amount, except Falco stayed the same.


tl;dr buffing his airspeed a little bit is TOTALLY REASONABLE OK??? ;_;

 

[TheDerp]

A lot of the stuff I see here needs to be thought out a bit. Some of the stuff here is understandable, but it would not only change Kirby immensely, it would make him high tier, and that's not Kirby.
Stuff I would appreciate though:
Ground Speed increased by a little.
Dash attack while still possible to escape from a lot harder to. Also 2 frames reduced from endlag so you don't get punished for it as easily.
BThrow killing a little earlier. Maybe inbetween Nesses Bthrow and Kirby's current BThrow. I don't know.
Nair start up having 3/2 frames reduced, shouldn't be able to chain into itself by canceling animation via landing and then doing it again.

Here are some I reconsidered because it would be going a little too far:
DownB should have less start up and end lag while having less kill power, seems a little stupid though.
DThrow KB decreased so that atleast the tip of a Fair could follow up. A little over the top though.
UpB should be a little less punishable, that way your opponents more encouraged to spike or meteor smash you while you're using your jumps. This could back up campy gameplay so it should be reconsidered.

 

[Dessa]

tl;dr buffing his airspeed a little bit is TOTALLY REASONABLE OK??? ;_;

Gee, I guess if yer gonna CRY about it! (Lol, j/k, you make good points).

 

[MrMFC]

One thing I just don't understand is how nair has so much lag (not landing lag). Sometimes it kills me because i wanted to fastfall dair and gimp but I press nair and die unless I got all of my jumps lol. Nair is still really good on stage tho, but I still would like to be able to use it off-stage without getting in a dangerous position (just look at MK's nair for example). Also up air should be faster too but I'm not sure about this one. Combine this with more air speed and Kirby'd have way better approaches, just think about sh reverse faster upair + more air speed.
Edit: ground speed would do a similar effect but I'm not sure which is better

 

[|RK|]

A lot of the stuff I see here needs to be thought out a bit. Some of the stuff here is understandable, but it would not only change Kirby immensely, it would make him high tier, and that's not Kirby.
Stuff I would appreciate though:
Ground Speed increased by a little.
Dash attack while still possible to escape from a lot harder to. Also 2 frames reduced from endlag so you don't get punished for it as easily.
BThrow killing a little earlier. Maybe inbetween Nesses Bthrow and Kirby's current BThrow. I don't know.
Nair start up having 3/2 frames reduced, shouldn't be able to chain into itself by canceling animation via landing and then doing it again.

Here are some I reconsidered because it would be going a little too far:
DownB should have less start up and end lag while having less kill power, seems a little stupid though.
DThrow KB decreased so that atleast the tip of a Fair could follow up. A little over the top though.
UpB should be a little less punishable, that way your opponents more encouraged to spike or meteor smash you while you're using your jumps. This could back up campy gameplay so it should be reconsidered.

Uh, high tier would be ****in' great. Not cheese high tier - just more Mario high tier.

 

[Zethoro]

Give Kirby substantially more Ground and Air speed and he's without a doubt high-tier as this would allow his playstyle to switch on a dime from defensive to rushdown, and put his amazing frame data to better use.

 

[Xandercosm]

Give Kirby substantially more Ground and Air speed and he's without a doubt high-tier as this would allow his playstyle to switch on a dime from defensive to rushdown, and put his amazing frame data to better use.

Please Sakurai...

 

[Zethoro]

Please Sakurai...

Sakurai instead buffs Shiek's Bouncing Fish to kill heavies midstage at 40%.

 

[Xandercosm]

Sakurai instead buffs Shiek's Bouncing Fish to kill heavies midstage at 40%.

She is SO low tier. She DESERVES it!

 

[breadstick24]

On the airspeed buff. All of us know it would make a big difference. Which is why it only needs to be a slight buff. We are not going to turn kirby into jigglypuff, we just need it pushed up one or two notches. With that said, his ground speed is acceptable imo. Look at how short he is. HOW would he run faster? Yes it would make him more viable but having a difficult approach is kind of what makes kirby so fun to play as. You have to keep mixing it up. Adapting and changing your style just like in the kirby games.

 

[TimG57867]

So....Kurogane Hammer finally got around to getting Kirby's frame data up and browsing it, I think I can confidently say that buff train for Kirby should not be making its final stop anytime soon.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Kirby

This basically confirms what I've felt for a long time. Kirby's frame data isn't "amazing". It's...actually rather mediocre. Compare his numbers to those of Mario, Luigi, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Fox, Yoshi, and other combo heavy characters and you find that Kirby's attacks are actually seriously behind the curve in the speed department. Final Cutter is a big offender as it pretty much has the same startup as Charizard's freaking F-Smash!

I don't know about you guys but I think Kirby is far from his reasonable peak condition. For a character of his range and speed, his moves take a very long time to do which is not good when you're on the lower end of speed spectrum. Forget air and ground speed (Well buffs would be welcome, but I am not holding my breath on those). Kirby's moves need the treatment! Aside from Final Cutter regaining its Brawl range and an Up Throw power boost, the main buffs Kirby needs is to his overall frame data. If Kirby's frame data fell more in line with Mario or Pikachu's, he'd improve immensely in viability and I think its more than fair. I mean is slow and has great frame data, so why can't get it too?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I mean comparing his to those characters wouldn't be too fair, I mean that's just a handful of characters, what about all those others you haven't mentioned? Much bette rather theirs, but in your opinion what area is his speed mostly lacking in compared to most other characters?

Also da heck kirby's running speed is the 19th fastest???

 

[TimG57867]

I mean comparing his to those characters wouldn't be too fair, I mean that's just a handful of characters, what about all those others you haven't mentioned? Much bette rather theirs, but in your opinion what area is his speed mostly lacking in compared to most other characters?

Also da heck kirby's running speed is the 19th fastest???

I actually think it's very fair. While Kirby doesn't have the slowest frame data in the game, very few if any characters that function like he does have slower frame data than him while also having similar range. When I say speed, I mean the startup up on his moves. For instance, our N-Air's startup is around double or more than that of all the characters I mentioned. This is why we can't use it to break out of combos, approach, or edgeguard effectively.

I think his poor mobility can be worked around but only if he has quick moves to compensate. Due to the end lag and startup on his moves, he'll often miss punishes or be hit right out of his strings due to not being able to get the next move out in time. For Kirby to function properly, I think his frame data needs to be more in line with Luigi or Fox so that his range doesn't hinder him when he gets inside.

Also, lol at that run speed. Don't know what happened there.

 

[MrMFC]

Look at our air mobility, 4th slowest RIP

 

[KirbySquad101]

So....Kurogane Hammer finally got around to getting Kirby's frame data up and browsing it, I think I can confidently say that buff train for Kirby should not be making its final stop anytime soon.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Kirby

This basically confirms what I've felt for a long time. Kirby's frame data isn't "amazing". It's...actually rather mediocre. Compare his numbers to those of Mario, Luigi, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Fox, Yoshi, and other combo heavy characters and you find that Kirby's attacks are actually seriously behind the curve in the speed department. Final Cutter is a big offender as it pretty much has the same startup as Charizard's freaking F-Smash!

I don't know about you guys but I think Kirby is far from his reasonable peak condition. For a character of his range and speed, his moves take a very long time to do which is not good when you're on the lower end of speed spectrum. Forget air and ground speed (Well buffs would be welcome, but I am not holding my breath on those). Kirby's moves need the treatment! Aside from Final Cutter regaining its Brawl range and an Up Throw power boost, the main buffs Kirby needs is to his overall frame data. If Kirby's frame data fell more in line with Mario or Pikachu's, he'd improve immensely in viability and I think its more than fair. I mean is slow and has great frame data, so why can't get it too?

Kirby's ground data actually seems really good compared to the characters you mentioned, with the exception of his smashes; it starts becoming questionable when it comes to his aerials. The 10+ frames I found was only excusable in Brawl because of his deceptive range (and B-Air only having 9 frames of landing lag), but without that out of the picture, there's not much reason to keep them so slow the way they are.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

It kind of sucks. Kirby has so much going for him but at the same time he can lose pretty badly. He needs so few buffs, but the ones that would make him able to deal with even more of the roster; he doesn't even need more range if his ground speed is buffed on par with other All-around characters (his air speed is a Kirby staple, it cannot be changed). In terms of Frame data, I honestly think the majority is pretty fine, the real issues are on his N-Air (it's supposed to be almost instant, but you can see when it's coming and it takes 1/6 of a second to get it out. Also, its endlag is unbearable) and on his D-Air. Up-Smash could be sped up too, while still being very punishable.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

People consider our Dair far better then many other characters, if I could find the data that shows all landing lags of all Dairs in the game, I'm sure Kirbys is close to one of the least, or somewhat.
It's very versatile too and arguably one of the best meteors, so only 18 frames of startup and landing lag is respectable.
I want that Nair decreased startup, we need that
And if by some miracle a kill throw, then we'd be set for a long time.....right?

 

[TimG57867]

Kirby's ground data actually seems really good compared to the characters you mentioned, with the exception of his smashes; it starts becoming questionable when it comes to his aerials. The 10+ frames I found was only excusable in Brawl because of his deceptive range (and B-Air only having 9 frames of landing lag), but without that out of the picture, there's not much reason to keep them so slow the way they are.

Forgot to mention outside tilts and jab. Kirby's aerial and smash attack frame data in Brawl was acceptable because he had bigger hitboxes and better air speed in proportion to the cast. Now that both have been nerfed, it's now a little too low.

People consider our Dair far better then many other characters, if I could find the data that shows all landing lags of all Dairs in the game, I'm sure Kirbys is close to one of the least, or somewhat.
It's very versatile too and arguably one of the best meteors, so only 18 frames of startup and landing lag is respectable.
I want that Nair decreased startup, we need that
And if by some miracle a kill throw, then we'd be set for a long time.....right?

I think for Kirby to get a good neutral, he'll need several things:

1. D-Air's startup should be cut by 6 frames. While it does have crazy good reward, the high startup seems a bit much given our mobility. 12 frame startup would be much more manageable.

2. N-Air needs to come out on frame 3-5 and have a little less end lag. It'd make a great combo breaker and starter that way.

3. Up Throw should kill Mario at 150% without rage.

4. Either B-Air needs less end lag or F-Air needs less startup. Kirby needs a good aerial to toss out in neutral.

5. Up Smash and/or Down Smash need less startup. This would compensate for Kirby's speed.

6. Most important in my opinion, Final Cutter needs to get better range and speed. If it came out Frame 3-8 and had Brawl's range with a little less lag, it would give Kirby a way to knock opponents with dangerous air game like Ness, Peach, and Ike away and give him a form of approach. It would also make recovering easier, give Kirby a nice landing option, and allow Kirby to zone a bit as well. I think this would actually improve Kirby's matchup spread even more than getting a kill throw (not that we don't need one!)

There's other stuff that could be improved as well, but those are the big game changers in my opinion.

 

[KirbySquad101]

People consider our Dair far better then many other characters, if I could find the data that shows all landing lags of all Dairs in the game, I'm sure Kirbys is close to one of the least, or somewhat.
It's very versatile too and arguably one of the best meteors, so only 18 frames of startup and landing lag is respectable.
I want that Nair decreased startup, we need that
And if by some miracle a kill throw, then we'd be set for a long time.....right?

Many casuals who don't use him really like to overhype Kirby to the point where they say things like D-Air into D-Smash is guaranteed, and his buffs on par with Ike's (wtf). That said, I do think Kirby's D-Air's, along with his air speed, start-up makes it too predictable, which leads to bad punishes on us. I think a 4-5 frame reduction would make it better.

And I pretty much agree with everything TimG578657 said.

Forgot to mention outside tilts and jab. Kirby's aerial and smash attack frame data in Brawl was acceptable because he had bigger hitboxes and better air speed in proportion to the cast. Now that both have been nerfed, it's now a little too low.

Agreed, though, to be fair, his F-Smash was pretty dumb move in Brawl lol

The sad thing was that pretty much EVERYTHING about up-smash (not including range) was buffed from Brawl, so you can imagine how terrible it was in that game.

 

[KirbyFan20]

Yeah, he's really good now. Only thing I want for him now is a slight buff in airspeed and make his Up-B ledge snap automatically.

That's all he needs right now.

 

[KenMeister]

A different idea I had in mind from other buffs listed, but I feel something that'd help Kirby a lot vs camping and putting on an aggressive front would be to buff his initial dash, albeit not his overall ground speed. It'd help him get his shield out a lot faster to avoid getting baited in midrange and put on pressure.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I can pretty much say that Kirby needs an air speed buff badly.

 

[MrMFC]

So we're back at this topic, huh? Air speed buff is really needed, but also better frame data on nair (less startup and less endlag), fair, up air and perhaps dair. If up air would be a kill move that'd be pretty cool too, but let's just not get too excited for buffs and become better players. I still don't understand why our frame data isn't one of the best when we're this slow and lack range (look at cloud, he's got range, is faster and better aerial frame data).




But really, we shouldn't get excited for buffs

 

[KirbyFan20]

I can pretty much say that Kirby needs an air speed buff badly.

Agreed with this 100%.

 

[|RK|]

Yeah, he's really good now. Only thing I want for him now is a slight buff in airspeed and make his Up-B ledge snap automatically.

That's all he needs right now.

They're not gonna make up b snap. It goes against it's use as an anti-recovery spike

 

[WarTubaFox]

I agree, an airspeed buff would be perfect, but I'm not sure we will get one.
In the videos we saw the other night with Corrin and Bayo, Marth got a buff on his forward air, so maybe maaayyybe we will get some Kirby buffs.

 

[Mo433]

Having his airspeed buffed would be nice, but I'd much rather have a buff on his run speed.

With good run speed, Kirby can become a legit threat. Down tilt would become better, as Kirby would have kill set ups/more options with a better run speed.

I don't think that's asking for too much considering Kirby has always been faster on the ground than in the air.

If we were going to get a airspeed buff, I don't think they'd change it by much.

 

[Agent Emerald]

Sooo, aside from the horizontal airspeed, you know what would be great?

A B move buff to something that isn't Inhale or Hammer. Final Cutter and Stone need some love too!

 

[Shadow Keebey]

A B move buff to something that isn't Inhale or Hammer. Final Cutter and Stone need some love too!

Hammer (and variants) get buffs, but they are still (in the words of Sonic) "too slow". Like FC and Stone, oddly.

 

[Asdioh]

I am completely expecting no change to Kirby in this patch, which makes me sad, because my predictions have been fairly accurate so far
Kirby's been buffed so many times, that I feel like by now they think "he's good enough now!"
And he certainly is far better than he was at release, but still... life is tough for a Kirby main.

As for buffs, I think it would be super interesting if Kirby's Copy powers were actually better than the character he copies. It would be an extremely unique mechanic, and would put more emphasis on Copy, like... what basically his entire gameplay revolves around in the games. Like, each move would be better than the original, in terms of frame data, or damage, or something. You know how our Pikmin ability is better than Alph/Olimar's? It would be like a less extreme version of that (you wouldn't want his ENTIRE gameplay to revolve around landing Inhale!)
Fox/Falco lasers would have less endlag, Falcon/Warlock Punch would be faster, Sheik needles would travel farther or faster, ZSS paralyzer would paralyze longer, charge moves would charge faster, Dedede Inhale would uh... have super armor or something. You get the picture! This is entirely hypothetical and will never happen, probably not even in a hypothetical Smash 5, but I think it would be an interesting balance choice to think about.

 

[Shadow Keebey]

I am completely expecting no change to Kirby in this patch, which makes me sad, because my predictions have been fairly accurate so far
Kirby's been buffed so many times, that I feel like by now they think "he's good enough now!"
And he certainly is far better than he was at release, but still... life is tough for a Kirby main.

As for buffs, I think it would be super interesting if Kirby's Copy powers were actually better than the character he copies. It would be an extremely unique mechanic, and would put more emphasis on Copy, like... what basically his entire gameplay revolves around in the games. Like, each move would be better than the original, in terms of frame data, or damage, or something. You know how our Pikmin ability is better than Alph/Olimar's? It would be like a less extreme version of that (you wouldn't want his ENTIRE gameplay to revolve around landing Inhale!)
Fox/Falco lasers would have less endlag, Falcon/Warlock Punch would be faster, Sheik needles would travel farther or faster, ZSS paralyzer would paralyze longer, charge moves would charge faster, Dedede Inhale would uh... have super armor or something. You get the picture! This is entirely hypothetical and will never happen, probably not even in a hypothetical Smash 5, but I think it would be an interesting balance choice to think about.

It would definitely give more reward to Inhale, and could threaten foes easier, due to being a better version of their move.

They certainly didn't adopt a "good enough now" mentality for the FE characters. All of them (- Roy) have received a large amount of buffs in almost every patch.

 

[MrMFC]

Or we make Inhale kill our enemy instantly ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I do agree Inhale should be more important to Kirby's gameplay, make it even faster and give it less endlag (but it should still be punishable) + more damage for star shot and what Asdioh said. Combined with more air speed it could have a ton of potential (I still gotta say Inhale's got some potential as it is now, but that's really not that much).


There are so many things they could buff, yet they only gave us +1 KBG on some moves (i totally appreciate the up throw buff tho). The buffs we got before weren't anything big either, just nice, nothing gamechanging tho. When will we get a big buff which will fix our problems?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

But....why would they fix our problems?
I mean in the sense that all characters have weaknesses, some more then others, it would be a little goofy to actually have most of our weaknesses removed.

Like our reward for getting in has always been getting better, it's just that the problem against some characters, is actually getting in.
They obviously won't make us heavier, or give us more range back, but those aren't even things we truly need.

The approach thing has always been problematic for Kirby, but to compensate, the reward like I said for getting in, is much better.

His neutral is.....eh... Well you know...
And how can they make it not as bad, or not change dramatically? I have no idea.

Him being forced to approach is again, nothing new, it's always been a thing(not like he ever could rack up damage from afar in the first place) so that's also something we've had to deal with, but it's not like they can't make it...you know slightly better, but still lackluster.

I'm also thinking, if he were to get an airspeed buff, I think we all know it would be a rather small buff. Now even if it is faster, does it really help him approach any better in the air? In the long run, it likely won't change much, the best it could do is possibly aid in some combos that our otherwise current suckish airspeed could never accomplish. That's all I see coming from it.

Gotta do some IT Fundementals, but I'll be back later.

 

[TimG57867]

There's a lot I feel Kirby still deserved and should've gotten before balancing was wrapped up like a usable Final Cutter, quick and safe aerials to approach with, and an air speed buff of at least .5. But I am glad that if he doesn't get anything else, he at least got a minor ground speed buff and the ability to kill safely.

 

[MrMFC]

There's a lot I feel Kirby still deserved and should've gotten before balancing was wrapped up like a usable Final Cutter, quick and safe aerials to approach with, and an air speed buff of at least .5. But I am glad that if he doesn't get anything else, he at least got a minor ground speed buff and the ability to kill safely.

I swear every time I see you post on the Kirby boards you say something about Final Cutter xD
Final Cutter really needs some love tho

 

[Shadow Keebey]

I've actually came up with an alternate side special that would be a lot more beneficial than Hammer. I thought of it a while ago, and it would probably be wise to share it here, as you guys are Kirby experts*1:

I am a firm believer of "Kirby should get a good projectile". To accomplish this, I think that Hammer Flip should be replaced by Beam Whip/Wave Beam. Uncharged, Beam Whip. Good at pressuring shields due to electric properties and multiple hitboxes. Charged, Wave Beam. Takes around the same length of time to fully charge as it does in a mainline Kirby game*2. 13-17%. Moderate knockback and travels through opponents, but loses power per enemy passed through. It would allow Kirby some range, cause his side-B to become a lot more usable, and allow Kirby some more shield pressure. Hammer Flip (and Hammer Bash) should be kept as customs.

*2. This is balanced out by it being a not very good KOing projectile
Just my thoughts.
/QUOTE]

This is slightly modified from the original time I posted it, but I believe it would really benefit Kirby.

*1. Well, you're all more expert than me.