Wes Puts Smash On Blast In His 6th Episode About Custom Moves

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

What a sick c***. This guy knows his stuff. Props to him for telling the smash community what the hell NEEDS to happen.
Dat ending though

 

[Pee-Gcuatro20]

That was a blunt yet accurate statement. There's pretty much no real reason to ban custom moves.

The Smash Illuminati pretty much exists whether intentionally or not just because the community puts the top players on a pedestal and treats them like gods. The invisible Back Room doesn't help either. If you let players who make money on the game influence bans, they're logically gonna pick what gets them more cash.

Killiminati
down with the N.S.O (new smash order)
Seriously thought placing players who get paid to decide on bans doesseem corrupt.
Power to the people not the "gods"

 

[Kaiju]

Nice vid. Though the Wii U version isn't out yet, does anyone know what the "Connect to Wii U" feature on the 3ds does? I see it in the demo but its (obviously) not accessible to us yet. Perhaps we'll be able to directly connect our names and custom moves through that feature, saving tournament organizers tons of time.

Data transfer and 3ds as a controller.

 

[Pee-Gcuatro20]

That was a blunt yet accurate statement. There's pretty much no real reason to ban custom moves.

The Smash Illuminati pretty much exists whether intentionally or not just because the community puts the top players on a pedestal and treats them like gods. The invisible Back Room doesn't help either. If you let players who make money on the game influence bans, they're logically gonna pick what gets them more cash.

Killiminati
Down with the N.S.O (New smash order).Seriously thought the fact that paidplayers decide on rulesets bans ect seems corrupt. I just joined the community and if it's just another effed up corrupt community like America then im out

 

[SmashBro99]

Guy knows what's up.

Melee had it's time, there won't be another Smash like it, if you like it then that's just fine, just hope Smash 4 really gets a chance.

 

[sWiTcHeRoO [疾~斬]]

That was a blunt yet accurate statement. There's pretty much no real reason to ban custom moves.

The Smash Illuminati pretty much exists whether intentionally or not just because the community puts the top players on a pedestal and treats them like gods. The invisible Back Room doesn't help either. If you let players who make money on the game influence bans, they're logically gonna pick what gets them more cash.

Exactly. This is exactly why M2K, Zero and everyone that is willing to play this new game is being 100% biased about it because they need to sucker in the community so that this game's competitive side thrives, and thus they make money from it.

Either way they're just going to be making money off of their precious streams, we already know M2K only cares about making money off of games (evidenced even further after the KatsuKity incident), clearly Zero and other top players that only see Smash as a source of income aren't going to be any different. It's pretty disappointing.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Custom moves should be perfectly fine. When I saw all of the custom moves that NinjaLink posted on YouTube, most of them were pretty terrible. I'm sure that if customs are allowed, people would only use a few since, like I said, most are pretty terrible.

As for custom equipment... That's another story for later. It's more controversial than custom moves.

There's basically no controversy. Custom equips literally have zero possible chance of being legal.

 

[Deleted member]

in my opinion there's a 50/50 chances that custom moveset will and not well be in
tournaments on one hand it can help low tier character's like DK and zelda be top tier
and make the clone characters like dark pit and lucina less....cloney but on the other hand I hear it's a pain to get ALL custom moveset and I heard D1 say that sakurai didn't make the custom moveset balance. I really what custom moveset to be legal in competitive smash I really do! but like I said it's a 50/50 chances.

 

[RobinOnDrugs]

Definitely allow custom moves. At least give them a chance before banning them.

 

[S2]

I agree 100% with this guy on custom moves. There is no real reason to ban them since it's way to early to make any informed decision on game balance.

The metagame has so much to gain by allowing characters to be played multiple ways. It's also not all that different than certain mechanics in other fighters, such as picking grooves or super arts in SF. Even MK10 is doing 3 different variations of each character to incorporate customs.

As for tournament officials who don't play, I agree with the idea behind this, but it's not always going to be realistic. At major events I think it's smart if you can get non-players to help run these things. Smaller garage tournaments it probably won't happen and I don't see a problem with tourney organizers playing if it's a small scale event.

 

[Berble]

Why do people call Melee outdated? Solely for the fact that its old? So far its proven itself as a much better competitive game than Smash 4 and it still evolves and puts up huge numbers at tournaments 13 years after release.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Why do people call Melee outdated? Solely for the fact that its old? So far its proven itself as a much better competitive game than Smash 4 and it still evolves and puts up huge numbers at tournaments 13 years after release.

You have to be kidding right? " So far its proven itself as a much better competitive game than Smash 4". That honestly has to be the most stupidest thing i have ever seen. The game has only been out in Japan for a few weeks and is coming within a few days. You can't go and say that Melee is more competitive than smash 4, even though only one version of smash 4 has been released and in one region only

Like he said in the video, Melee and Brawl took YEARS to figure out what to ban and why. Give smash 4 a few years dude, THEN that might be a legitimate comment

 

[Shirma Akayaku]

There's basically no controversy. Custom equips literally have zero possible chance of being legal.

True, but I assume a very small minority will at least try to get custom equipment legal before giving up. I don't see equipment being legal though.

 

[Berble]

You have to be kidding right? " So far its proven itself as a much better competitive game than Smash 4". That honestly has to be the most stupidest thing i have ever seen. The game has only been out in Japan for a few weeks and is coming within a few days. You can't go and say that Melee is more competitive than smash 4, even though only one version of smash 4 has been released and in one region only

Like he said in the video, Melee and Brawl took YEARS to figure out what to ban and why. Give smash 4 a few years dude, THEN that might be a legitimate comment

This is exactly what I'm getting at. Smash 4 hasn't proven itself at all yet and we're already saying lets replace it and make it the main smash game. The first official tournament for the game ended in a time out and we have no idea how good the game will be at a competitive level yet. Look what happened when Brawl was thrown into Evo before it was developed at all.

 

[PowerKord]

Although I do not agree about custom move sets. I do agree that we need to put down melee and bring on Smash 4. But instead of custom moves we should be using characters are they normally are. And when we find weird things about characters Nintendo can patch the game and give nerfs/buffs accordingly instead of having to depend on custom move sets to balance (or unbalance) the game for us.

 

[Black Mantis]

That Boyz N The Hood reference killed me.

 

[Captain Zack]

this basically makes characters op like whatever. custom moves aren't fair imo

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

this basically makes characters op like whatever. custom moves aren't fair imo

Explain please? It doesn't necessarily make make theme OP. If you want OP, look at the custom equips. Pure Strength with Link = 108% in one shot. Now THAT'S OP.

 

[Captain Zack]

Explain please? It doesn't necessarily make make theme OP. If you want OP, look at the custom equips. Pure Strength with Link = 108% in one shot. Now THAT'S OP.

custom equips are gonna be banned anyway so im not even gonna go over that.

let's say you are olimar.
you use the strong pikmin custom for neutral special
then you use sticky pikmin custom for side special
after that you use crash whistle
you throw a white pikmin on your opponent. the opponent tries to knock it off but since strong pikmin have more health, and sticky pikmin stay on longer. it would about 12% minimum. if the pikmin don't die you use crash whistle to call your pikmin back and do damage if it hits. about 15% with one projectile.
\o/ oh well

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

custom equips are gonna be banned anyway so im not even gonna go over that.

let's say you are olimar.
you use the strong pikmin custom for neutral special
then you use sticky pikmin custom for side special
after that you use crash whistle
you throw a white pikmin on your opponent. the opponent tries to knock it off but since strong pikmin have more health, and sticky pikmin stay on longer. it would about 12% minimum. if the pikmin don't die you use crash whistle to call your pikmin back and do damage if it hits. about 15% with one projectile.
\o/ oh well

That isn't necessarily OP you know. :/ Just counter pick with someone like DuckHunt who has SUPER GOOD projectiles as it is or even Rosalina, who is GDLK against Projectile characters as it is, simply for her Down B.
Also you could dodge the Pikmin when thrown at you.
Really its all just a matter of skill of the players, when they go up against each other.

 

[Captain Zack]

yes because counterpicking is how to play smash. #zackout

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

yes because counterpicking is how to play smash. #zackout

Yes sir, it IS the way we play smash

 

[JipC]

Good points but come on Wes, get of your high horse and stop telling people to abandon games and play the game the you think deserves more attention. Melee and PM are COMPLETELY different ballparks than Smash 4. I hate how people have been antagonizing the competetive community lately with the same statements over and over again. Is it now a crime to prefer one game over there other? To not want to automatically dump the last game in the series whenever a new one comes out?

 

[JipC]

Character customizations are a great thing. For tournament play, I don't agree with having the TO's float around supervising every match. Way too much overhead. In tournament play, everyone should have pre-customized their movesets for every system with a max of like 3 different tags per player.

Miis should not be tournament legal. A gazillion weight classes, attributes, and moves are nightmarish for tournaments. It would change 5 min matches into 15 min matches with setup time. Imagine someone playing Marth and you counterpicking them with a Mii designed to duck under grabs, have a longer range sword, and an untipperable weight class. It doesn't reward skill, just unnecessary jank.

Make me sad honestly, Gunner Mii's moveset looks so freaking cool. I hope we find a way around it. Maybe have some tourney-legal Miis to use, and put the QR codes up on Smashboards and r/Smashbros for everyone to see and use?

 

[Fierce Deku]

What I almost never see addressed is the matter of actually making custom moves available. The only way to get them is to spend untold hours grinding for random drops in awkward single player modes that have little if any use as tournament practice. This is not the ‘play a bunch of VS matches like you were going to do anyway’ kind of unlocking we’re used to. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in addition you also need to have a 3DS/a copy of the 3DS version of the game (the version that will NOT be standard in tournaments as soon as the console version drops), an Amiibo to transfer customs to the WiiU, and must do the aforementioned grinding while using a 3DS for your controller, which is not an ideal setup to begin with and not what most people are going to be playing on during actual tournaments.

If you don't have all the customs unlocked, you can't practice with them. You can't even get basically familiar with their timing/range/etc.. If other people don't have them all unlocked you can't practice fighting AGAINST them (so it’s not even a matter of your own personal willingness to put up with acquiring them). If custom specials can't be readily available to everyone, and some players are “rewarded” for owning all the 3DS related things and grinding single player, or for getting lucky and unlocking a good move, we really don't have an even playing field. Terms like “less competitive”/“not competitive” get thrown around way too much these days, but I think it’s not unreasonable to say that we can’t have a legitimate competition if we can’t provide a level playing field for all players. Having different people with different custom specials unlocked is like running a tournament with a different PM build on each console. People aren’t even playing the same game. The randomness of what moves you’ve unlocked is like having a tournament with items on.

I only see two ways to solve this. One is to ban custom moves. The other is to assume that anyone who wants to be a part of the competition is going to have to unlock everything. That’s 2 versions of the game and all the hardware associated with it, plus a soul-rending amount of time grinding 3DS single player modes that are nothing like the form of the game we all came here to play. That’s a huge barrier to entry. Maybe it’s my personal bias, but I don’t think custom specials are worth that cost.

I'm curious what other people think of this. Is this the sort of thing we want to expect of our players? Am I exaggerating the difficulty of getting 100% of the custom moves?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

What I almost never see addressed is the matter of actually making custom moves available. The only way to get them is to spend untold hours grinding for random drops in awkward single player modes that have little if any use as tournament practice. This is not the ‘play a bunch of VS matches like you were going to do anyway’ kind of unlocking we’re used to. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in addition you also need to have a 3DS/a copy of the 3DS version of the game (the version that will NOT be standard in tournaments as soon as the console version drops), an Amiibo to transfer customs to the WiiU, and must do the aforementioned grinding while using a 3DS for your controller, which is not an ideal setup to begin with and not what most people are going to be playing on during actual tournaments.

If you don't have all the customs unlocked, you can't practice with them. You can't even get basically familiar with their timing/range/etc.. If other people don't have them all unlocked you can't practice fighting AGAINST them (so it’s not even a matter of your own personal willingness to put up with acquiring them). If custom specials can't be readily available to everyone, and some players are “rewarded” for owning all the 3DS related things and grinding single player, or for getting lucky and unlocking a good move, we really don't have an even playing field. Terms like “less competitive”/“not competitive” get thrown around way too much these days, but I think it’s not unreasonable to say that we can’t have a legitimate competition if we can’t provide a level playing field for all players. Having different people with different custom specials unlocked is like running a tournament with a different PM build on each console. People aren’t even playing the same game. The randomness of what moves you’ve unlocked is like having a tournament with items on.

I only see two ways to solve this. One is to ban custom moves. The other is to assume that anyone who wants to be a part of the competition is going to have to unlock everything. That’s 2 versions of the game and all the hardware associated with it, plus a soul-rending amount of time grinding 3DS single player modes that are nothing like the form of the game we all came here to play. That’s a huge barrier to entry. Maybe it’s my personal bias, but I don’t think custom specials are worth that cost.

I'm curious what other people think of this. Is this the sort of thing we want to expect of our players? Am I exaggerating the difficulty of getting 100% of the custom moves?

Easy way to solve this: Action Replay

 

[Kidbuu42]

Why can't there be two different types of tournaments? One for the default moves and one for custom moves? Is there a particular reason?

What a lot of people don't realize is that there doesn't need to be "custom and vanilla" tournaments. A custom character has no true advantage over a vanilla character and picking the latter is just as viable.While the customs are *different* than the neutrals, it doesn't always translate to better in every scenario. They have advantages and downsides that the vanilla moves don't. It's all a matter of play style difference.

 

[Usopp]

lmaoo this episode

 

[Fierce Deku]

What a lot of people don't realize is that there doesn't need to be "custom and vanilla" tournaments. A custom character has no true advantage over a vanilla character and picking the latter is just as viable.While the customs are *different* than the neutrals, it doesn't always translate to better in every scenario. They have advantages and downsides that the vanilla moves don't. It's all a matter of play style difference.

There are tradeoffs to custom moves yes, but that does not mean they are all equal. There are advantages and disadvantages to picking different characters also, but we still end up with low tiers and high tiers. Certain custom moves will be objectively better than the regular version, in certain matchups or universally. There will be some amount of choosing based on preference/playstyle yes, but for the most part people bother to pick a custom in the first place precisely because it IS better for the matchup they are about to play.

 

[RATED]

I like what I have seen from custom movesets(thanks based god ninjalink) even if what I will play the most is for glory, online with friend and tournaments in weekends, I like them.

Miis need a standard weight/height tho

 

[shinhed-echi]

If we don't give SSB4 a competitive chance to drag in new people to our "way" of playing the game, we're going to be responsible for Sakurai making an uber-casual SSB next time to drag new players, with tripping and characters randomly falling asleep for no reason.

BTW I don't agree with us stop playing what we already know how to play just to focus on one. XD

I play all SSB games, love them all as well. I'd play a tourney of each one f I had the chance to.

That said, I think P:M (which is pretty much a better Melee with Brawl's roster) and SSB4 should be the highlights of tournaments.

 

[beestmode]

Honestly doesn't matter to me...let people use cm sets and if they lose to a player using no cm's then well it wouldn't matter. cm's don't make the player better so why not allow them.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Honestly doesn't matter to me...let people use cm sets and if they lose to a player using no cm's then well it wouldn't matter. cm's don't make the player better so why not allow them.

Exactly. A specific CM setup might be Super OP for 'X' Character, but then the player who is controlling 'Y' character might body the hell of out them, despite having a 'weaker' default or cm moveset . Its all comes down to ones skill at the game and its characters.

 

[sWiTcHeRoO [疾~斬]]

when we find weird things about characters Nintendo can patch the game and give nerfs/buffs accordingly instead of having to depend on custom move sets to balance (or unbalance) the game for us.

Nintendo is probably never even going to patch the game to buff/nerf characters. Like c'mon, this is Nintendo we're talking about. The game isn't even meant to be 100% competitive in the first place, I'm sure Sakurai has no interest in keeping the game healthy for competitive players when he hates people playing his game that way.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

This is exactly what I'm getting at. Smash 4 hasn't proven itself at all yet and we're already saying lets replace it and make it the main smash game. The first official tournament for the game ended in a time out and we have no idea how good the game will be at a competitive level yet. Look what happened when Brawl was thrown into Evo before it was developed at all.

And yet you still said that Smash 4 is more competitive than Melee Oh well.

 

[JipC]

What I almost never see addressed is the matter of actually making custom moves available. The only way to get them is to spend untold hours grinding for random drops in awkward single player modes that have little if any use as tournament practice. This is not the ‘play a bunch of VS matches like you were going to do anyway’ kind of unlocking we’re used to. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in addition you also need to have a 3DS/a copy of the 3DS version of the game (the version that will NOT be standard in tournaments as soon as the console version drops), an Amiibo to transfer customs to the WiiU, and must do the aforementioned grinding while using a 3DS for your controller, which is not an ideal setup to begin with and not what most people are going to be playing on during actual tournaments.

If you don't have all the customs unlocked, you can't practice with them. You can't even get basically familiar with their timing/range/etc.. If other people don't have them all unlocked you can't practice fighting AGAINST them (so it’s not even a matter of your own personal willingness to put up with acquiring them). If custom specials can't be readily available to everyone, and some players are “rewarded” for owning all the 3DS related things and grinding single player, or for getting lucky and unlocking a good move, we really don't have an even playing field. Terms like “less competitive”/“not competitive” get thrown around way too much these days, but I think it’s not unreasonable to say that we can’t have a legitimate competition if we can’t provide a level playing field for all players. Having different people with different custom specials unlocked is like running a tournament with a different PM build on each console. People aren’t even playing the same game. The randomness of what moves you’ve unlocked is like having a tournament with items on.

I only see two ways to solve this. One is to ban custom moves. The other is to assume that anyone who wants to be a part of the competition is going to have to unlock everything. That’s 2 versions of the game and all the hardware associated with it, plus a soul-rending amount of time grinding 3DS single player modes that are nothing like the form of the game we all came here to play. That’s a huge barrier to entry. Maybe it’s my personal bias, but I don’t think custom specials are worth that cost.

I'm curious what other people think of this. Is this the sort of thing we want to expect of our players? Am I exaggerating the difficulty of getting 100% of the custom moves?

I think you're overexaggerating the amount of time it takes to unlock all of them. Dark Link found a way to make it easier to get custom drops in classic mode. I definetly agree that it seems way too long though

 

[TGT | Ghosty]

The Mii Characters should be banned. They have too many options and movesets, and they can change their weight, size, speed.

Other than that, I'd like the idea of custom movesets. It could kill tier lists, and make everything based on Match-Ups.

 

[Zoma]

Customs need to be a part of competitive Smash 4. They add strategy elements, and they're what make Smash 4 unique.

Though, I don't like the implication that we should abandon Melee and Brawl and Project M. That's odd.

 

[EpixAura]

I disagree with so much of this video. First of all, his argument about custom moves was so terrible that it almost made me want them banned. He listed problems with them I've never even considered as well as repercussions, such as TOs not playing and how much crazier counterpicking can become when you have the opportunity to see you opponent selecting his moves. It doesn't seem like a worthwhile tradeoff. Nevermind the problems he didn't even bother mentioning (the time and effort needed to unlock them on every setup will be a huge problem for the WiiU version.)
It's not that I think his argument was uninformed by any means. However, it did more harm to the cause than good.
Second, telling to community to drop the other Smash games for Smash 4 just isn't going to accomplish anything. The community tried that with Brawl. It didn't work. Now people are even more skeptical of stopping Melee or PM. Furthermore, you're asking the community to let their games die for the sake of a game many of them don't like as much. I, personally, intend to continue playing Melee and PM, and will be playing Smash 4 as well. I don't want any of these games dropped, and I don't know a single TO in my area who intends to drop these games. Smash 4 doesn't have the right to control the entire franchise, and the community isn't going to die from being spread across multiple games.

 

[Berble]

And yet you still said that Smash 4 is more competitive than Melee Oh well.

What are you talking about? I assume you mixed up Smash 4 in Melee in your post but regardless you didn't respond to anything I said...
I said that Melee is better competitively than Smash 4 from what we've seen now...obviously Smash 4 deserves a chance to prove itself but it shouldn't just become the main game solely for the fact that its new.