We're leaning towards a less projectile-campy smash.

[Z1GMA]

In the current build

Pit's Arrows have been nerfed in speed and range, but he appears to have a better ground-game.
Samus can't Missile Cancel, but her ground-game seems buffed.
Olimar only has 3 ******* to spam instead of 6, he will also spend more time plucking new ones since he has to get rid of them in order to get the most out of his recovery, which will sometimes demand that the Olimar fights w/o ******* in some situations before it's safe to pluck new ones.
Link's projectile-game has been stated not as effective as in Brawl, and he, too, (if I'm not mistaking?) appears to have gotten at least a slight buff in his ground-game.
Dedede is a mixed bag, but I personally believe Gordos are less campy than Waddle Dees.
Fox can't SH Laser, I heard - if Falco's in, I believe there's a chance he won't be able to either.
If Mega Man would've been in Brawl, I think it's safe to say that his projectiles would've been better than they appear to be in the current wiiu-build.

Some character seem to have gotten a buffed projectile-game, though. But those characters' projectiles weren't that great in Brawl to begin with.

Thoughts?

(Also, to my fellow Megaman Fans. Those of you who feel Mega Man's projectiles aren't that great, don't worry cuz well, read the above.)

 

[Celestis]

I can only hope this stands true on the final version..
Though the missing Short hop lasers is saddening to me.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I can only hope this stands true on the final version..
Though the missing Short hop lasers is saddening to me.

Pick your poison. You either want campy techniques or you don't.

 

[Shiliski]

So projectiles are weaker and ground games seem to be stronger. What about air?

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

This seems to hold water for the villager too. Some of his projectiles are slow (dash attack, Timber), others deal low damage (Fair, wood chips), some have low reach for a projectile (Fair, Bair, dash attack) and the Lloid Rocket deals much more damage and knockback if you ride it into your opponent instead of using it as a projectile (like +10% more damage and turns into a KO move).

Clearly Sakurai wants people to have the option of playing a ranged game, but is also trying to encourage people to go on the offensive.

 

[Celestis]

Pick your poison. You either want campy techniques or you don't.

Well the short hop laser prompts both aggression and camping. So I find that as neutral ground. Can run away Lasering, or approach. We see this all the time in Melee matches with Falco. But I am always in favor of aggressive style.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Well the short hop laser prompts both aggression and camping. So I find that as neutral ground. Can run away Lasering, or approach. We see this all the time in Melee matches with Falco. But I am always in favor of aggressive style.

There are other ways to promote aggression aside from a zero-risk, ranged, campy-ass laser technique on one or two characters in the roster.

 

[Z1GMA]

Clearly Sakurai wants people to have the option of playing a ranged game, but is also trying to encourage people to go on the offensive.

So it seems. I hope he'll continue in the same direction.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Link's boomerang was pretty fantastic in the demo, and bombs aren't really nerfable (though my friend who played Toon Link in 3DS claimed that Toon Link seemed to throw bombs harder than he did in Brawl which actually means TL's projectile game got buffed). Arrows suck regardless so any changes to them aren't relevant unless it's large buffs sufficient to make them relevant. Link's model of projectiles is really hard to do right, and honestly even most good players I've met can't do it well in Brawl (you pretty much have to actually main Link or Toon Link; it's too hard to pick up on the fly). I have no doubt it will still be as great as ever if not even better in smash 4 once the mains get comfortable with it.

Likewise, my friend and testing partner seemed to take particular note of the projectile speed of Samus's missiles in smash 4. I kinda noticed it but he kept iterating the point so he focused on it a lot more; they actually fly across the screen significantly faster in smash 4. Remembering that Samus's projectile game already pretty much sucks in Brawl (sorry, but it's true), I could easily forsee this being a reasonable trade-off in allowing her to maintain having a projectile game that's still not actually good but just good enough to have some utility at times while her buffs elsewhere may be enough to make her less terrible as an overall character than she was in Brawl.

Olimar doesn't really sit back and just throw waves of pikmin; that's just not strong Olimar play in Brawl. Actually strong Olimar play (more mid-range zoning with grabs and smashes) seems fairly uninhibited by a smaller pikmin count from what I've seen of early play actually, and I could forsee his predictable pikmin order and relatively higher frequency of purples proving to be strong buffs once the dedicated Olimar mains really grind out some optimization on that front since managing the unpredictable line was actually a big obstacle for them. IMO Olimar is a character to watch in general; there are many ways development could go that would make him very, very strong.

Sheik's needles are not nerfed, and I can confirm that Luigi's fireballs are about the same (though most reports are that Mario's were pretty bad in the demo). Mega Man's fsmash, the Loid Rocket on Villager, Starbits on Rosalina, Sun Salutation on Wii Fit Trainer, and Greninja's Water Shuriken were all fantastic projectiles so every newcomer in the demo other than Little Mac had a good projectile. While 2 minute timed FFAs in an unfamiliar game is very unfriendly to projectile based strategies (and while Mega Man in general seemed on the lower end of quality despite being the marquee projectile character), I see lots of reason to be optimistic about the projectile possibilities in general in the new game.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

nerfed projectile games and buffed ground games? meh, long ranged tilts and aerials will start to dominate the neutral game then i guess, could be absolutely wrong though. however, i do really like the fact that sakurai wants to encourage interaction though.

 

[Veggi]

I don't so much mind the game being generally geared toward offensive play, but if there are no viable campy characters then I think that's just unfair to players that like to projectile camp. Most fighting games have plenty of characters that appeal to different playstyles and I like that. Hopefully Amazing Ampharos is right and we'll see some characters with good projectile games in the final build.

 

[Z1GMA]

Link's boomerang was pretty fantastic in the demo, and bombs aren't really nerfable (though my friend who played Toon Link in 3DS claimed that Toon Link seemed to throw bombs harder than he did in Brawl which actually means TL's projectile game got buffed). Arrows suck regardless so any changes to them aren't relevant unless it's large buffs sufficient to make them relevant. Link's model of projectiles is really hard to do right, and honestly even most good players I've met can't do it well in Brawl (you pretty much have to actually main Link or Toon Link; it's too hard to pick up on the fly). I have no doubt it will still be as great as ever if not even better in smash 4 once the mains get comfortable with it.

Likewise, my friend and testing partner seemed to take particular note of the projectile speed of Samus's missiles in smash 4. I kinda noticed it but he kept iterating the point so he focused on it a lot more; they actually fly across the screen significantly faster in smash 4. Remembering that Samus's projectile game already pretty much sucks in Brawl (sorry, but it's true), I could easily forsee this being a reasonable trade-off in allowing her to maintain having a projectile game that's still not actually good but just good enough to have some utility at times while her buffs elsewhere may be enough to make her less terrible as an overall character than she was in Brawl.

Olimar doesn't really sit back and just throw waves of pikmin; that's just not strong Olimar play in Brawl. Actually strong Olimar play (more mid-range zoning with grabs and smashes) seems fairly uninhibited by a smaller pikmin count from what I've seen of early play actually, and I could forsee his predictable pikmin order and relatively higher frequency of purples proving to be strong buffs once the dedicated Olimar mains really grind out some optimization on that front since managing the unpredictable line was actually a big obstacle for them. IMO Olimar is a character to watch in general; there are many ways development could go that would make him very, very strong.

Sheik's needles are not nerfed, and I can confirm that Luigi's fireballs are about the same (though most reports are that Mario's were pretty bad in the demo). Mega Man's fsmash, the Loid Rocket on Villager, Starbits on Rosalina, Sun Salutation on Wii Fit Trainer, and Greninja's Water Shuriken were all fantastic projectiles so every newcomer in the demo other than Little Mac had a good projectile. While 2 minute timed FFAs in an unfamiliar game is very unfriendly to projectile based strategies (and while Mega Man in general seemed on the lower end of quality despite being the marquee projectile character), I see lots of reason to be optimistic about the projectile possibilities in general in the new game.

Sheik is one of the characters I didn't mention, since there's no drastic change in her projectile's effectiveness to date, which is nice.

I didn't mean Olimar is supposed to stay back and just throw pikmin. Sorry, my bad.
However, he'll still be forced to deal with more close-range-situations than in Brawl.

About Samus, I personally think fast moving homers are less effective than slow moving homers, and on top of it, you can't cancel them any longer. So good thing she seems buffed in other areas.

 

[Tristan_win]

:3 Meanwhile Sheik

Sheik is one of the characters I didn't mention, since there's no drastic change in her projectile's effectiveness to date, which is nice.

Actually it got buffed back to melee standards when it comes to aerial needles which will greatly increase her defensive and offensive options. I don't think anyone has tested to see if Sheik needles could cancel out other projectiles or if they still pass though them though.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

This wouldn't matter much for Rosalina, since Gravitational Pull would render most projectile games ineffective anyway.

 

[Orngeblu]

Edit: Nevermind.

Pit's Arrows have been nerfed in speed and range, but he appears to have a better ground-game.
Samus can't Missile Cancel, but her ground-game seems buffed.
Olimar only has 3 ******* to spam instead of 6, he will also spend more time plucking new ones since he has to get rid of them in order to get the most out of his recovery, which will sometimes demand that the Olimar fights w/o ******* in some situations before it's safe to pluck new ones.
Link's projectile-game has been stated not as effective as in Brawl, and he, too, (if I'm not mistaking?) appears to have gotten at least a slight buff in his ground-game.
Dedede is a mixed bag, but I personally believe Gordos are less campy than Waddle Dees.
Fox can't SH Laser, I heard - if Falco's in, I believe there's a chance he won't be able to either.
If Mega Man would've been in Brawl, I think it's safe to say that his projectiles would've been better than they appear to be in the current wiiu-build.

Some character seem to have gotten a buffed projectile-game, though. But those characters' projectiles weren't that great in Brawl to begin with.

Everyone's projectile game looks ok except for Fox. I don't find his lasers to be a problem, but perhaps they are camp-able if you want to do nothing but circle camp with 1% damage lasers.

 

[Z1GMA]

Also, don't forget the this game is faster than Brawl, so some buffs/nerfs might only be illusional, like the speed of Samus' missiles.

 

[Renji64]

It is still gonna be campy sadly.

 

[D-idara]

It's kinda saddening for Project M players that are starting to use Link, since I find his projectile game tons of fun to **** with people, you know, Boomerang Throw plus Bombs plus aerials plus arrows, it's bullet hell.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

It is still gonna be campy sadly.

Good argument.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Good argument.

I can feel the acerbic sarcasm leaking from my extra large screen, burning a hole through both my desk and keyboard and me scooting back in horror before my feet suffer the same fate.

 

[Hong]

I think OP is incorrect.

I don't think this game is any more or less campy. I just think projectiles are receiving proper balancing, just like the rest of the game.

As @ Amazing Ampharos said, Link is more or less buffed across the board. No surprise, because his projectiles (and z-cancelled dair) were what made him a competitive character in Smash 64. Especially the Japanese version. Link as a fighter deserves to have stronger projectiles, and rotating them is core to the character design. They will buff projectiles for Link because he needs them to compete.

Similarly, I don't think they are so naive as to not know Samus was brutally nerfed in Brawl, particularly her missiles. They are not giving us Melee missiles back, but that doesn't mean they are going to leave them untouched. The compromise was to make them faster, and give them an angular launch instead of a vertical launch. They want Samus to be getting her kills in other ways, and as such two of her other specials have been buffed immensely.

I also refute @ R RascalTheCharizard 's remarks on the Villager. Lloid Rocket is immensely powerful. I would say an unmounted Lloid Rocket has about as much launch as Samus's missiles from Melee (but since the game is floatier, it won't kill as easily). Not only that, but it absorbs seemingly everything thrown in its way on its path. The slingshot as well as has immense launch power, and while it lacks range it is still rather fast. There are no forward or back aerials like it. They want this character to have these two strong projectiles by design, because his grounded normals have horrendous range.

It's all case-by-case. If you look at a game like Street Fighter, lots of folks have projectiles, but there are character who either camp because it's a valid option in that match-up (shoto VS someone without projectiles), or they camp because that is in their character design (Guile, Sagat, Dhalsim). It doesn't have to be so black-and-white. They will have a good idea of which character they want to play keep-away or not. I would not be surprise if Falco's Blaster, whether he is the one using it in this game or not, will be about as strong as it were when Fox used it Smash 64. Still useful as a control tool, but not so severe.

 

[Rhus]

I actually enjoy defensive projectile play, so sue me.

And I'm pretty upset about Fox's laser not cancelling. This isn't a small nerf, and it actually makes his lasers 100% worthless.

I sincerely hope this "balancing" of projectiles is given a second thought. They should be balancing by a character's playstyle, not by simply nerfing it beyond viability ie. Samus, Fox.

 

[KeketheBasedCat]

There are other ways to promote aggression aside from a zero-risk, ranged, campy-*** laser technique on one or two characters in the roster.

That's pretty clearly not what he was talking about. Have you ever even watched a Melee match?

Olimar doesn't really sit back and just throw waves of pikmin; that's just not strong Olimar play in Brawl. Actually strong Olimar play (more mid-range zoning with grabs and smashes) seems fairly uninhibited by a smaller pikmin count from what I've seen of early play actually, and I could forsee his predictable pikmin order and relatively higher frequency of purples proving to be strong buffs once the dedicated Olimar mains really grind out some optimization on that front since managing the unpredictable line was actually a big obstacle for them. IMO Olimar is a character to watch in general; there are many ways development could go that would make him very, very strong.

I'm glad someone said this, since the Olimar forums are talking about how badly he got nerfed (since I guess no on there has ever played olimar in brawl with 3 pikmin and realized that it's perfectly doable.) Also, secret pre-release olimar tech: you start off with RYB pikmin. Throw the red offstage, pluck another pikmin, and you have YBW, which is probably the best set of colors to have at the beginning of a match.

 

[Pazzo.]

Mega Man's projectiles, IMO, will be used more or less for pressuring opponents into the air, where Megs will truly shine, as opposed to the ideas we had about him when he was first revealed.

He's a projectile heavy character, but his biggest victories will come from the air, fitting as I remember jumping around like a mad rabbit in Mega Man 1.

 

[Hong]

Mega Man's projectiles, IMO, will be used more or less for pressuring opponents into the air, where Megs will truly shine, as opposed to the ideas we had about him when he was first revealed.

He's a projectile heavy character, but his biggest victories will come from the air, fitting as I remember jumping around like a mad rabbit in Mega Man 1.

He feels like Smash Bros' Guile.

His grounded normals fire mid-ranged projectiles that vanish after a short travel time. Three of his specials launch projectiles that are decent, but are too slow to connect at a distance. His grounded normals that don't fire projectiles make him a poor contender in close-quarters, so he'll probably be using his excellent grab range for keeping his foes at bay instead of trying to tussle without having adequate tools to do so.

He has all the tools to fight at a limited range, but enough range to be a huge threat if you either can't get in or stay out of reach.

And yeah, his uair in particular is absolutely disgusting. I don't know why people aren't harping on this move, with how much space it invalidates and will completely change how you have to deal with the character.

 

[Pazzo.]

He feels like Smash Bros' Guile.

His grounded normals fire mid-ranged projectiles that vanish after a short travel time. Three of his specials launch projectiles that are decent, but are too slow to connect at a distance. His grounded normals that don't fire projectiles make him a poor contender in close-quarters, so he'll probably be using his excellent grab range for keeping his foes at bay instead of trying to tussle without having adequate tools to do so.

He has all the tools to fight at a limited range, but enough range to be a huge threat if you either can't get in or stay out of reach.

And yeah, his uair in particular is absolutely disgusting. I don't know why people aren't harping on this move, with how much space it invalidates and will completely change how you have to deal with the character.

I agree, but I've liked what I've seen of the U-Air... D Throw > U-Air seems like a decent reset, as It gives Megs a bit of space to reset his positioning. In any case, Mega Man's metagame is going to be VERY interesting to learn. I'm personally predicting a lot of zoning at mid-range.

 

[Empyrean]

I'm just afraid to see how much Falco lasers will suffer with how so many veteran's projectiles have been nerfed.

 

[Rhus]

I'm just afraid to see how much Falco lasers will suffer with how so many veteran's projectiles have been nerfed.

If Fox is any indication, the spacies will lose their excellent defensive game that they've always had and be forced to play up close.

But they are still gated by heavy fall speed and being combo food, so this isn't looking good for either McCloud of Lombardi.

 

[Z1GMA]

I think OP is incorrect.
I don't think this game is any more or less campy.

Who said the game as a whole is going to be more/less campy? I'm only talking about Projectile-camping, bro.

 

[Veggi]

At least with customizable special moves each character will have more chances at having a good projectile.

 

[Hong]

Who said the game as a whole is going to be more/less campy? I'm only talking about Projectile-camping, bro.

Quoting my post like that does no one any good.

Since your post asked us for thoughts, I chimed in on the areas I felt I had something I could say, speculate on, or clarify.

 

[Z1GMA]

Quoting my post like that does no one any good.

Since your post asked us for thoughts, I chimed in on the areas I felt I had something I could say, speculate on, or clarify.

Alright, bro.

 

[Phaazoid]

At least with customizable special moves each character will have more chances at having a good projectile.

I think this could actually be a big point if move customization becomes competitively viable.

Samus has 3 types of missiles and 3 kinds of power shots? Megaman would have a lot, lot more projectile variation than most.

We haven't seen most of the customization options yet, so it's hard to speculate.

 

[Saikyoshi]

If projectiles really have been nerfed as a whole, then this likely means For Glory using FD layouts rather than Battlefield layouts is a bit more justified and fair than we feared.

Which is good, because competitive mode should actually reflect competitive play.

 

[Big-Cat]

I think this could actually be a big point if move customization becomes competitively viable.

Samus has 3 types of missiles and 3 kinds of power shots? Megaman would have a lot, lot more projectile variation than most.

We haven't seen most of the customization options yet, so it's hard to speculate.

The problem with customization is time in tournaments. Then there's whether or not they seriously affect the matchups. The way I see it, "proper" tournaments should use the default movesets. Side tournaments are perfectly fine in my eyes.

 

[Phaazoid]

The problem with customization is time in tournaments. Then there's whether or not they seriously affect the matchups. The way I see it, "proper" tournaments should use the default movesets. Side tournaments are perfectly fine in my eyes.

It's a tough decision to make, especially with the likes of Palutena, with different special moves instead of tweaks.

imo, if there aren't too many broken ones (which would be banned) and if you can save them to a profile (for instant setup) it would be interesting to see them in higher levels of play.

Of course, it could go either way. I just don't want to outright say all customization should be banned from main tournaments before proper testing has been done.

 

[LiteralGrill]

It's a tough decision to make, especially with the likes of Palutena, with different special moves instead of tweaks.

imo, if there aren't too many broken ones (which would be banned) and if you can save them to a profile (for instant setup) it would be interesting to see them in higher levels of play.

Of course, it could go either way. I just don't want to outright say all customization should be banned from main tournaments before proper testing has been done.

With the 3Ds it'd be relatively simple if saving them was possible with their own consoles being brought to events. Perhaps there will be two separate metas, one with customs, one without.

 

[Phaazoid]

With the 3Ds it'd be relatively simple if saving them was possible with their own consoles being brought to events. Perhaps there will be two separate metas, one with customs, one without.

I hope it doesn't cause to much of a schism in the community.

The way I see it, it could go a few ways.

In some cases, characters might have custom moves that are just better than the other choices. In others, the trade-offs would truly make different moves better for different match-ups. If we get enough of the latter, I'm hoping they find a place in competitive play. It could make lower tier characters more viable in certain matchups

 

[LiteralGrill]

I hope it doesn't cause to much of a schism in the community.

The way I see it, it could go a few ways.

In some cases, characters might have custom moves that are just better than the other choices. In others, the trade-offs would truly make different moves better for different match-ups. If we get enough of the latter, I'm hoping they find a place in competitive play. It could make lower tier characters more viable in certain matchups

It could also make them less viable. Low tier characters are usually that way since they cannot deal with a majority of situations. Even with custom moves, the characters that can cover more options will always be best. Especially with customizing possible, people will pick those can can cover way more options just to be safe, leaving them even further in the dust.

 

[Phaazoid]

It could also make them less viable. Low tier characters are usually that way since they cannot deal with a majority of situations. Even with custom moves, the characters that can cover more options will always be best. Especially with customizing possible, people will pick those can can cover way more options just to be safe, leaving them even further in the dust.

Yep. There's a lot of ways it could go.

As I said before, it's really hard to speculate without actually knowing the moves, haha. This is one of those things that we're really gonna have to wait to see.