Well ****balls Mc****

[CRASHiC]

Everyone knows what's going to happen.

Just like pre-platinum, right? I mean, everyone called the main pokemon to get boosted there. We all knew how deadily Salemence was with his outrage, clearly he was going to become the number one pokemon.

oh wait.

 

[Circa]

Everyone knows what's going to happen.
Infernape and Heatran skyrocket in use.
Mence gets MORE dominant with the only Dragon that really compared to it gone. Don't pull DNite BS or **** like that, it's not nearly as good as Mence is.
DDTar returns with a vengance.

Also, "not being fun" isn't an excuse for banning a Pokemon. If it's balanced, it's balanced.

Unless of course it's balanced but really ****ty to play in. If you can keep it balanced and make it fun, then you've lost nothing and gained everything. I quit playing OU because of the way it started to change.

I'm still not going to play it very much right now (despite how this metagame seems like it will evolve), but I will be playing Suspect for a bit I think. Part of me feels like getting rid of both Mence AND Latias will open up the metagame a lot (and at the very least, it will make a **** load more sense than it currently does to me), so I'm definitely willing to test to see if my feelings are correct. And in the event that I am correct, then I'm probably going to keep playing and hope for getting in the top 50. If my voice can be heard, then I will try my hardest to let it speak.

 

[UltiMario]

Don't talk when you don't play the Metagame.

Mence was enough of a ***** as is.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Both or neither is what needs to happen.

Either way stupid threats are gonna stick around, they just won't be ridiculously overpowered (Mence) or capable of beating a lot of its own counters (Latias) OTHER THAN SCIZOR AND SCARFTAR.

 

[Circa]

Don't talk when you don't play the Metagame.

Mence was enough of a ***** as is.

Lolwut? I didn't say ANYTHING about the ****ing -Latias metagame. I said I was going to play the -Latias -Mence metagame known as Suspect ladder.

And I have played OU, you know. I just didn't like the direction the metagame ended up taking, so I quit. So quit acting like an elitist for no apparent reason, acting like you know EVERYTHING about how the metagame is going to change and take the backseat before you REALLY piss someone off.

Please.

 

[kirbyraeg]

I think we have our next BotW contestants.

OU grudge match. I fully support. =D

edit: (this post needs actual content)

Basically, I think that latias being gone (with mence QUITE LIKELY to join her very soon) will allow more freedom in teambuilding. There's a wider variety of viable threats without latias as a defensive menace and not everything needs to be mence-proof. Entry hazards will be more important, but steel-types will be de-emphasized at the same time, so this really just makes me wonder about the effects it would have on stall. I think it would just result in a lot of teams needing a stallbreaker like gliscor/mixape/lucario.

 

[UltiMario]

Please, tell me if you find ANY innacuracies in anything I've said so far.

 

[ss118]

ScarfTar has plenty of counters. The problem lies that it takes out something in your core before you can focus in on it, and by that point you are down one pokemon. Scizor just U-Turns everywhere, so good luck coutering it directly.

Ultimario:
1) you apparently played the garchomp metagame as bad as (edit: mostly)everyone else did. There are other ways to beat pokemon other than countering.
2) I never said those pokemon would be good: I said you could make use of more pokemon and still have a good team. There were more ways to play, more ways to vary your playstyle without everyone looking the god-**** same.
3) Melee is more competitive and is more fun: brawl is supported by MLG and thus more people play it for the money. But since online-pokemon doesn't get you money, then yes fun can be considered a factor in some manner: even if you don't know why, there is usually something better about a metagame if it appeals to you more than another metagame, even if it is inferior in other aspects.

 

[Circa]

I think we have our next BotW contestants.

OU grudge match. I fully support. =D

I'm not really interested in playing OU.

Please, tell me if you find ANY innacuracies in anything I've said so far.

I never said I saw any. But I don't see any accuracies either.

An increase in MixApe likely means an increase in things like Starmie. Salamence fears Starmie, as Starmie destroys Mence and Mence can't do **** about it outside of a Scarf set (which lets face it, that's just asking to get ****ed up). That's to go along with MixApe, who we know Mence is skeptical of coming in on. Obviously Mence will still find its way in, but he could have a harder time doing so with the changes that could come with the removal of Latias.

Also, I'm betting people didn't really expect ScarfTar to become less than a gimmick either, but hey. It sure as hell is here now. And it certainly isn't a gimmick.

So basically what I'm saying is that you don't know. You could be accurate, you could be inaccurate. It's just the way things are. I'm not particularly interested in this metagame because part of me feels like things will go back to the relative norm after a month or two, but I am interested in what could happen with Mence AND Latias gone, because I think that's when you'll really see results. I don't know if I'm right and I don't know if I'm wrong, but that's my personal belief on it all. And I'll follow it.

 

[Chill]

1. In the Chomp metagame it was Chomp/Chomp Counterx2/Counters to countersx2/Filler on most teams. Where is the variability in this?
2. **** like Dusknoir and Electivire will STILL be bad. Not even Latias' ban will save this from being a 16-Pokemon metagame sort of thing.
3. Brawl and planking isn't fun, but we still do it anyway. Fun has nothing to do with competition, you can't ban things for being unfun, only if they're legitimately broken. Sure, we'd like to have fun PLAYING, but simply playing should be the fun we get, the metagame in itself isn't where you should be looking for fun, it should just be the fun from playing Pokemon.

This so much. I do think it the Chomp metagame had more variety than what we currently have but every team had Garchomp and two pokemon to take him down. Usually both with hp ice, one to weaken him and make him lose his yache berry and the other to take him down.

I'm kind of bummed to see Latias go but if anything I think I'd like to see a few more pokemon banned just to see what would happen. Namely Salamence and Scizor.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Wow...this sucks so much. If Salamence goes too, Ill definetely quit using ****gon rules. Booo. Really ****ing boo.

 

[Pink Reaper]

So lets talk about how salamence is sooooooo broken.

Smogon is officially ********, especially when they dont consider Scizor before mence LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Iskay, im just gonna go on winning however the **** i want.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Exactly...scizor is much much more overcentralizing and overused than poor Latias. Ill miss her. Oh wait, I wont, cause I wont play by their rules . F smogon. sTupid scrubs.

 

[Wave⁂]

Saying Smogon is composed of scrubs is like saying Mew2King is a n00b.

Also, usage does not ****ing equate to brokenness or overcentralization.

 

[TLMSheikant]

I said scrubs in ragelol. I just think Latias really doesnt deserve it. The metagame will suck now. Heatran and Infernape say hi.

 

[ss118]

The ladder hasn't even opened yet. ._.'

Everyone chill.

 

[Wave⁂]

I just think Latias really doesnt deserve it.

Obviously you don't know if you are right.

The metagame will suck now.

pics or it didnt happen

Heatran and Infernape say hi.

And this is... bad, somehow?

 

[TLMSheikant]

I played shoddy back when there was no latias being tested. And **** was filled with infernapes. Im just sayin. It will go back to that Im pretty sure. If thats bad or not, its all subjective I guess. I certainly wont like a freaking burning ape sweeping with such ease. Also, I think salamence will DEFINETELY go to uber now. Hes better than latias and now that latias isnt even there to 'kinda' check him...Bah.

 

[ss118]

Maybe if Infernape is sweeping with ease you're playing the game wrong?

We are passed the theorymon stage of DP where Ramparados was almost uber, you know?

 

[CRASHiC]

Wait, Rampardos was seriously almost Uber?

 

[TLMSheikant]

Maybe if Infernape is sweeping with ease you're playing the game wrong?

We are passed the theorymon stage of DP where Ramparados was almost uber, you know?

Umm what?...u made that rampardos stuff up lol. Infernape used to be in everyone and their mother's team when latias wasnt in OU btw. :/

 

[Player-4]

So lets talk about how salamence is sooooooo broken.

Smogon is officially ********, especially when they dont consider Scizor before mence LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Iskay, im just gonna go on winning however the **** i want.

Lol the fact that you think Scizor is more broken then Mence is pretty funny.

Mence honestly does not have a true counter. There is not one Pokemon in the non-uber metagame that can safely switch into Mence and not risk being KO'd. At least with Chomp you KNEW he was hitting you physical. Mence, when played right, is taking someone out.

Scizor, on the other hand, is very easily countered. Zapdos and Rotom forms are the best counters, but there are many more that come to mind.

I don't think Mence should be Uber, but in this Chomp-less, Latias-less metagame I think he should get the boot. Leave them be or get rid of them all. All this ***** footing around what should be Uber and OU is getting ridiculous. Mence is just as broken as Chomp, and if people don't see that then there's something wrong.

 

[ss118]

Umm what?...u made that rampardos stuff up lol.

No, seriously, people thought the 165 base attack combined with Rock Polish, SD, Mold Breaker, Head Smash, and the new choice scarf would make Ramparados too broken for teams to handle. Problem was they were still thinking 3rd gen.

Infernape used to be in everyone and their mother's team when latias wasnt in OU btw. :/

It used to be: and then people realized it's frail as ****. Sure, it's good, but nothing terribly game-breaking I assure you. I can list ~10 pretty decent Infernape checks if you want me to.

Edit: Holy **** the impossible happened: me and P4 agree on something! Though it was only on the tiny Garchomp bit about it being all physical lol.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Also, usage does not ****ing equate to brokenness or overcentralization.

Actually it does, at least more so than generic "I think this pokemon is broke" statements that Smogon seems to be running off of. Latias being banned raises a huge question to me and that's WHY is something that's legitimately and easily counterable, not a centralizing force and generally just a good pokemon banned?

Scizor's usage is higher than any other pokemons has EVER been, to the point where you HAVE to prepare for it on your team no matter what. That's an obscene centralizing force right there. Mence you could throw stealth rocks up and have a priority move(which you will because if you're playing pokemon you have SR+Scizor, the two most centralizing forces in the metagame) Mence isnt even that good, it just has enough options that you can prepare for the wrong one and end up losing a poke to it. Then you bring in Scizor and it ceases to be a problem.

Edit: @P4-There's alot of OU pokemon that dont have a solid counter. Lucario comes to mind. So does Infernape(especially now that Latias is banned LOL) Metagross is another, so is TTar. What makes Mence different? I mean other than the fact that it's really easy to kill?

 

[ss118]

Scizor's usage is higher than any other pokemons has EVER been-

Garchomp says hi.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Garchomp never reached 33% usage. Ever.

 

[ss118]

reached 42% usage in August of 2008.

was used in 105,070 battles out of 248,774 battles.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45438

 

[Pink Reaper]

Wait....That's how the track usage? >_______________>

brb, gonna go spam Lead Magikarp till it makes it onto top 20

 

[Player-4]

Pink, all those that you listed really aren't too hard to handle/counter, even if they don't have a solid counter. Nape is probably the hardest out of all of them but either way you know what all of them are throwing at you. But with Mence, you don't know if he'll hit you with a Draco or an Outrage or a variety of other moves that cover him so well.

You can milk moves out of Nape, Ttar, Gross, and Cario and punish accordingly. CS Flygon can take all of those when played right. The only thing that scares me is SD ES Lucario against Flygon, but again something like a CS Heatran can take care of him (barring he's been secret and isn't expecting a CC). So sure, they're hard to counter as well, but they're not impossible to switch into like Mence is.

 

[ss118]

PR how do you think they tracked usage?

 

[Pink Reaper]

Wasnt sure, but this does explain how the whole "Magikarp in Ubers" thing happened.

P4, You said that there's no one good switch in to Mence because it has "Dragon" moves. You then state that you can beat Nape by switching stuff into it. The only thing is, just like Mence, Ape gets perfect coverage so why should you assume that the switch you make will be the right one? Why cant I predict your outrage and switch in a steel type? Why cant i absorb Draco Meteor with a sponge then call your obvious physical attack with Scizor? You dont get to pick and choose. What counters Lucario? Ghost types? It has Crunch? Physical Walls? SD CC 2HKO's them. Faster pokes? it has Extremespeed. Moreso, what if it's not physical? What if it nasty plots? What if it Aura Spheres? What if you're baller like me and run Special attacks on a Metagross? What if TTar subs when you bring in your counter? What if it's running Ice Beam? Or Babiri Berry? Or Choice Scarf? Or choice BAND? What if it's mixed?

Keep in mind I consider NONE of these pokemon broken, not even Scizor, who doesnt give two ****s about what you have to counter it cus it just comes in on something else then U-Turns. Even NVE it's going to leave a huge dent and give them control of the match. Mence is easily manageable, so is TTar, so is Metagross, so is Garchomp(not that it matters apparently)

 

[mood4food77]

garchomp is naturally bulkier than swampert while also being more offensive
garchomp resisted SR while salemence is weak to it
garchomp is SS was dumb since it also had increased invasion

but i get what PR is saying, just because it's used more doesn't mean that it's the most centralizing

Latias could have not been used as much by people who refused to use it (like i don't use the top 6 pretty much...ever) but were forced to carry either scarftar or scizor to make sure latias didn't **** their team

 

[Pink Reaper]

The thing is is that in general Latias cant **** a team. Unless you're really weak on the defensive side and the thing is spamming Specs Dragon Pulse against your steeless team it's no better than something like Specs/LO starmie.

 

[Player-4]

I would like to know how you handle Mence, because in all honesty I have trouble with him. Everyone you listed I can deal with though. Gimmicks like Tyrana-boah are annoying but pretty easily beaten when figured out. What does SubTar do with WW Skarm? Espeed Lucario can't do anything about a healthy CS Flygon unless it has an SD under it's belt, and what does he do with Gliscor? Sure, some are jolly and can ice punch him but 8/10 are going to be adamant. And what does Lucario do about Gengar? I know he has crunch but he's not outrunning him and Gengar can handle him if focus blast doesn't miss. Finally, Zapdos handles Metagross quite nicely, he can take an ice punch after SR and since he's faster he can 2HKO with tbolt.

I think I missed some stuff but you get my point.

Mence just isn't as easy to handle. I think the only fitting steel to handle Mence is Metagross, and that's only if you catch him on an outrage.

 

[mood4food77]

any steel against outrage

cursepert actually does a great job against all dragons, keeps them in check and stops them from sweeping late game

 

[Pink Reaper]

I would like to know how you handle Mence, because in all honesty I have trouble with him. Everyone you listed I can deal with though. Gimmicks like Tyrana-boah are annoying but pretty easily beaten when figured out. What does SubTar do with WW Skarm? Espeed Lucario can't do anything about a healthy CS Flygon unless it has an SD under it's belt, and what does he do with Gliscor? Sure, some are jolly and can ice punch him but 8/10 are going to be adamant. And what does Lucario do about Gengar? I know he has crunch but he's not outrunning him and Gengar can handle him if focus blast doesn't miss. Finally, Zapdos handles Metagross quite nicely, he can take an ice punch after SR and since he's faster he can 2HKO with tbolt.

I think I missed some stuff but you get my point.

Mence just isn't as easy to handle. I think the only fitting steel to handle Mence is Metagross, and that's only if you catch him on an outrage.

I use Mamoswine. Doesnt give two ****s about Mence. Also You say 8/10, adamant Lucario. That means 2 of 10 you lose anyways. Hell, 9/10 mence is DD/Outrage/EQ/Special Attack, why are you *****ing about it's options lol.

 

[Player-4]

I use Mamoswine. Doesnt give two ****s about Mence. Also You say 8/10, adamant Lucario. That means 2 of 10 you lose anyways. Hell, 9/10 mence is DD/Outrage/EQ/Special Attack, why are you *****ing about it's options lol.

Because his options are so well covered lol. Mamo isn't a counter though, just a revenger. That's like saying Dugtrio is an Nape counter. That bit about Lucario only concerns Gliscor, who I don't use, but my point remains that Lucario isn't hard to handle.

Idk why you say I'm *****ing about his options >_> I'm just pointing out how good he is, I'm not crying bloody murder that he should be uber. All I'm saying is how he doesn't have a true counter. And even though Mence's options are pretty obvious, all of them are pretty solid choices. It's really hard to go wrong. Nothing like switching into him.

 

[Pink Reaper]

any given set has a true counter. You cant counter everything. Even if his options are solid, there's easy choices for everything. SR strips him of 25% and if he's running DD/EQ/Draco Meteor you can just abuse Scizor. If it's Fire Blast over Draco Meteor use Hippowdon. Hippowdon is actually a pretty boss wall against Mence, it's what i used to always use. Infernape is for all intents and purposes more dangerous than Mence. Its NOT weak to SR, it's naturally faster and it arguably has better STAB(Fire/Fighting > Mono Dragon STAB) It's also not easily OHKO'd by common Priority moves like Ice Shard and Bullet Punch.

And Scizor is still better than Mence. That will always be true no matter what. It's just that Scizor isnt as Lolbroke as some n00bs(im looking at you TERY!) think he is.

 

[Player-4]

I'd put Scizor on my team over Mence any day, but on the flip side I'd rather fight Scizor than Mence any day.

Vaporeon takes care of Nape pretty easily btw, so does Tenta and Gyarados.

 

[mood4food77]

uhhhh

scizor gets ***** by pretty much any water or electric pokemon pretty much
heck, gyarados walls the living hell out of scizor

salamence can 2HKO all of it's counters, it can only be kept in check and revenge killed while not actually being countered unless it makes a mistake

i think platinum screwed everything up