Weekly Matchup Discussion - Ness

[Llumys]

I don't think PK Fire is ever a problem against any viable character...

 

[Noa.]

Also, Ness' grab would effectively come out faster than I think anything we have in this situation. Not sure how long it would take for us to drop our shield and jab or dtilt him away but I can't think it of being reliable, considering we don't know if he's going to do all three hits, do one/two and cancel the jab to grab or get the **** away after the first/second jab hit.That's five options he has following his fair, right? Some we'd deal with in a similar way, some wouldn't give us too big of a problem (jumping away). But considering we basically have to hide behind our shield in this situation, trying to predict what he's going to do next, it could be a problem. But I may be putting too much thought into this >.>

A shield drop is 8 frames of lag. Jab is 4 frames, so it would take 12 frames to go from shield to jab when you do it frame perfect. Dtilt is even slower. I'm not sure how many frames it is to do shieldgrab or usmash OoS.

I think Ness's jab is great. I wish Olimar had that kind of jab. :/

@ Llumys: Pk fire is actually decent to use on opponents that are landing at mid distance from Ness. They'll get hit by it unless they shield upon landing, and at the correct distance it can't be punished. It also serves as the occasional mixup for edgeguarding.

I used to dislike pk fire, but after using it in different situations I found out that it has its uses.

 

[DanGR]

edit: that's longer than I though it'd be. Sorry, Hilt. >_< /edit

That's exactly what I wanted to see, DanGR. Reading what you wrote seems to balance the matchup out and in no way seems like the "40:60" we had previously, by any means. However, for the fact that Ness is better at approaching, gimping, juggling, and quite possibly killing, than us I still feel 45:55 fits perfectly. But I'm starting to see 50:50 seeming reasonable as well.

I dunno. It'd go with 50-50 unless anyone else objects to it.

Yeah, I can see yellows working the best in the matchup. Usmash would be far too difficult to land on Ness other than for punishment, and its main use would be in Toss, to throw off his approaches, which isn't entirely reliable, while yellow usmash, fsmash, and fair, can outdo his fair. In fact I can see Yellow Pikmin alone changing the matchup from 45:55 to 50:50, to be honest.

I forgot to mention another approach stuffer that Olimar has. If Ness is running at you, it's actually quite safe to run forward and short hop a fair at him really quickly. Make sure you do this before he gets to the position where he'd usually short hop a fair at you though. And don't do it too early or he'll be able to quickly react to you.

Speaking of which, I think deciding which pikmin are most usable should be included in our matchup discussions. It's just about as important as stage counterpicks, and could even play into stage CPs as well. For Ness I'm feeling Yellow > Blue/Purple > Red > White

I think you're trying to compare the importance of two totally different things. >_> But yes, they're both important.

Theorycraft time :D

Ness' Fair -> Jab vs Olimar's Shield -> Shield Grab

If Ness fairs our shield and we shield the three hits from jab as well, we're able to shield grab or whatever we want, due to the lag afterwards. So we'd basically be waiting for the third hit of the jab to hit our shield to throw out our grab, when it's safe. However, what if Ness doesn't send out the full jab? What if he fairs, throws out a jab to make sure we werent trying to shield grab his fair, then jumps back after the first or second hit (preferable first)? Or what if he fairs our shield, throws out the first jab, cancels the jab and throws out a grab? We're already in the mindset that we're just gonna shield through the whole thing until the "safe spot" after Ness' third jab hit, but what if it never comes? Considering we wouldn't be able to counter his grab until he already sent it out (when it's too late), it makes his approach not so "predictable". This, to an extent, changes Ness' approach options up a bit, doesn't it? Or am I thinking on it too much ^^;

Well, I know that if I see an opponent pause for a bit after a jab, they're probably not going to jab again. During that time I usually either roll away or grab.

Think about MK's ftilts. When he's poking at your shield with dtilts and ftilts, and he ftilts you, you'll notice that he'll stop doing his ftilt if it hits your shield. He'll either cancel it after the first or second ftilt so you don't get a guaranteed grab on him after the third. If you see that he stops for a split second after he hits your shield with an ftilt, it's fairly likely that he'll then transition into dtilts or something else. Also, it's a safe bet to expect him to cancel his ftilt after the 2nd hit. That's a good time to roll/short hop away and reset your position or grab him as he cancels it.

(Though in my short time as an MK user, I've noticed that I can safely cancel his ftilt against Olimar. I can just watch the Olimar player and see if he grabs or not. If he does, I can just use the third swing of his sword. I've never seen any other MKs do that before, though.)

This same thing applies to Ness- with his jabs and his jab canceling. It's not as black and white as "what if he does another jab?" You can actually visually see him cancel his jab, (if you've got good reflexes) which gives you a safe window to roll away. What you should be thinking about is what the Ness player will do after he lands on your shield. Will he jab? grab? short hop a dair? Will he expect me to roll away the second he hits my shield with a fair and lands on the ground?

Look at what the Ness player's habits are, what he usually does after he lands on your shield, and judging off that you can make a good educated guess about what he'll do next. The safe bet against new Ness players that you've never fought before is to just continue shielding or roll away. Brawl's shield mechanics make those the universally best options.

Also, Ness' grab would effectively come out faster than I think anything we have in this situation.

Well, I think that's correct. The frame data listed for Ness in the Ness boards doesn't show the shield stun that fair gives; I can't say for sure.

Not sure how long it would take for us to drop our shield and jab or dtilt him away but I can't think it of being reliable, considering we don't know if he's going to do all three hits, do one/two and cancel the jab to grab or get the **** away after the first/second jab hit.

Let's see...

• It takes 7 frames to drop a shield if you don't powershield an attack.
• If you do powershield it, that's 0 frames.
• Jabbing is 4.
• Dtilt is 6, iirc. I don't feel like checking again. >_>
• Upsmash out of shield (using tap jump) bypasses those 8 frames it takes to drop your shield, so it's only 7 frames total +however long you charge it. (I always end up charging my smash attacks a tiny bit if I don't use the c-stick. <__<) That makes this your quickest option out of shield in every situation. It doesn't have as much range as grabbing does, though, so if they space their fair well, you might not be able to use this.

(Important question: Can you jump out of shield and cancel the jump into an upsmash by jumping and then using the c-stick?????? O__O)


So...

• Jabbing out of shield takes 11 frames, which is tied with a shieldgrab.
• Dtilting out of shield takes 13 frames.
• Upsmashing takes 8 frames if you don't charge it any.
• And I would have an orgasm be ecstatic if you could jump cancel upsmashes out of shield.

That's five options he has following his fair, right? Some we'd deal with in a similar way, some wouldn't give us too big of a problem (jumping away). But considering we basically have to hide behind our shield in this situation, trying to predict what he's going to do next, it could be a problem. But I may be putting too much thought into this >.>

You're putting too much thought into this. xD Think about what actually happens during your matches in the heat of the moment.

Thanks AvariceX for the frame data. His grab isn't as fast as I thought it was, but it's by no means slower than ours ^^; Can you or someone link me to Ness' frame data? Pretty sure I remember seeing it a long time ago, but I wasn't able to find it (I need to resticky our frame data or something so it's easier to find too....). Haha, how good is Ness' jab cancel to grab anyways? If it's not worth you all doing I definitely just wasted twenty minutes writing this out @_@.

Nah you didn't waste your time. Sometimes I'll type out responses to questions I don't even intend to post a response to. It makes you think.

Edit: I'll list out what options and whatnot we both have when it's not 4:30 in the morning.

Nah, that's not really needed. We just need everyone to understand the situation. Neither player probably isn't going to use all of their options anyways.

A shield drop is 8 frames of lag. Jab is 4 frames, so it would take 12 frames to go from shield to jab when you do it frame perfect. Dtilt is even slower. I'm not sure how many frames it is to do shieldgrab or usmash OoS.

I was certain that dropping your shield took only 7 frames. Am I wrong? >_<
Grabbing out of shield drops the shield automatically. It only takes 11 frames total.
Upsmash takes at least 8.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Alright, I'm done looking for ways Ness can wiggle his way to a 55:45 ^^; (Playing Devil's Advocate, I suppose). As much as we feel we can't have a solid ground in this matchup entirely, and that there's a very slight edge towards Ness, 50:50 is reasonable. There's no way (or reason) we'd have even a slight advantage in this matchup though. What does everyone else think? 45:55 or 50:50?

As for the colors, I was talking about colors in general against Ness. Which ones work best against him over all. Maybe it's just me but that definitely seems like something important to know for matchups, but I may be wrong.

 

[_clinton]

How so? I get my *** grabbed by Olimar a lot whenever I make an attempt.

Too many ****ing characters in this game like to grab Ness' ***...what the hell is wrong with Sakurai?

Yeah but anyway...Olimar wins the grab game...

A grab from Olimar at low % can pretty much shove about 40% on Ness pretty easily...and while Ness has set ups and it is pretty easy to pull off a grab a good % of the time (both the Pivot and dash are good grabs compared to other characters)

Olimar's grab is above average as well and he can pretty much follow up with what Ness can do...but better (his early % damage rackers are better than ares because they are true combos pretty much, and his kill throws are better than are's overall because 2 of his Pikmin make him have 2 killing throws...so while our Bthrow is still stronger...he has that plus an Uthrow)

Olimar may have a real risk with being KOed off stage...but it isn't like Ness is 100% safe...god Pikmin jumping on him is the last thing he needs when he has to use PKT...it either kills him or he gets a Falco Fire Bird instead of a Fox Fire Fox for recovery right away for distance

 

[Noa.]

I think that this matchup is 50:50 No side has a clear advantage.

Yellows and purples will be the most useful pikmin in most matchups. There aren't too many matchups that I see tat would favor another color over those two.

 

[Llumys]

I'd like to know how stages affect this match-up.

 

[_clinton]

I'd like to know how stages affect this match-up.

Ness should stay away from BF, in fact he should be careful of being on platforms in general because of that large amount of range Olimar has

 

[kirbywizard]

Ness should stay away from BF, in fact he should be careful of being on platforms in general because of that large amount of range Olimar has

So I guess Nofair for Ness is out of the question.

 

[_clinton]

So I guess Nofair for Ness is out of the question.

Meh...I just hate BF because of the two lower platforms in the Olimar match up...

Nolfair however, seems less evil when it comes to Usmash at least...

Still I think it helps Olimar more than Ness IMO...shame because Ness is great on Nolfair as well...

I'm thinking Rainbow Cruise actually...how is Olimar on that?

 

[RichBrown]

Fuuuuck there is SO MUCH TO READ

This matchup is dead even, just take me at my word

And for the record

I raaaaaaped FOW

Spoiler

Haha not really, our MM was last hit 3rd game, I barely won, and I didn't wanna go double or nothing because I felt like he'd probably beat me lolol. He's legit.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

This matchup is dead even, just take me at my word

A bit of reasoning would be great though :/
"Taking your word for it", even as good of an Olimar as you are, is difficult for me to do without good reason.

 

[Tin Man]

Meh...I just hate BF because of the two lower platforms in the Olimar match up...

Nolfair however, seems less evil when it comes to Usmash at least...

Still I think it helps Olimar more than Ness IMO...shame because Ness is great on Nolfair as well...

I'm thinking Rainbow Cruise actually...how is Olimar on that?

Olimar is **** on rainbow cruise and jungle japes. Delfino isn't so bad (love u avariceX) sure there is the water thing, but olimar can take advantage of being under the stage and uairing better then ness can.

A bit of reasoning would be great though :/
"Taking your word for it", even as good of an Olimar as you are, is difficult for me to do without good reason.

fair enough

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Meh...I just hate BF because of the two lower platforms in the Olimar match up...

Nolfair however, seems less evil when it comes to Usmash at least...

Still I think it helps Olimar more than Ness IMO...shame because Ness is great on Nolfair as well...

I'm thinking Rainbow Cruise actually...how is Olimar on that?

Olimar would be bad on rainbow cruise against Ness. That would probably be your best CP against us. Rainbow Cruise, Frigate, Japes, and maybe Brinstar are the stages that are notably bad for us in certain matchups, and I would imagine Ness on Rainbow Cruise to be one of them. Considering Ness would easily be able to keep up with us moving from platform to platform while having a fair out would be a problem, and him gimping us on the stage wouldn't be difficult as well. I can't really think of a better stage for you to CP against us except maybe japes. Norfair I'd imagine would be good for you as well in the matchup, but I don't know. I don't have too much experience on the stage tbh. Oh and Brinstar... I can imagine you messing us up there as well for obvious reasons.

 

[smash64]

Fuuuuck there is SO MUCH TO READ

This matchup is dead even, just take me at my word

And for the record

I raaaaaaped FOW

Spoiler

Haha not really, our MM was last hit 3rd game, I barely won, and I didn't wanna go double or nothing because I felt like he'd probably beat me lolol. He's legit.

just cuz you beat FOW doesnt mean that you can beat any ness player

 

[Llumys]

just cuz you beat FOW doesnt mean that you can beat any ness player

He never said he could. He just mentioned that one of the top-level Olimars beat one of the top-level Ness'. That does give some insight on the match-up.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

oh **** get'm smash haha

 

[Tin Man]

so what do we say about the matchup?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

So it seems 50:50 has been agreed upon, right? I'll begin working on a writeup soon and putting up the new matchup thread(s) as well.

 

[Noa.]

50:50 is what the majority says, yes.

Ness's matchups are too good for a low tier.

 

[Llumys]

Ness is low tier because he sucks against Meta Knight.

 

[Noa.]

He does better against MK than Oli does. >.>

 

[*_Echo_*]

He does better against MK than Oli does. >.>

lol so true
ness should be higher, and oli should be above pikachu

 

[Llumys]

Yes, he does, but Olimar has enough good match-ups against the other top tier characters to negate the fact he sucks against Meta Knight.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

Yes, he does, but Olimar has enough good match-ups against the other top tier characters to negate the fact he sucks against Meta Knight.

An advantage against snake and other top tier chars really helps olimar.

Lllumys whats with the avatar? lol

 

[Llumys]

It's just an avatar. <_<;

 

[Tin Man]

Olimar should be above G&W, he is snake's only counter, and G&W gets hard countered by the top tiers lol. I doubt Olimar vs MK is that bad, when u say its hard, what ratio are u referring to?

 

[Llumys]

I'm referring to 35:75, or at least 40:60.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I'm referring to 35:75, or at least 40:60.

Yes it's definitely 35:75 haha

 

[Tin Man]

yea that doesnt make sense -_-

which one is it

 

[Llumys]

Olimar's the 35, of course.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Yeah, about counterpicking..... *uses his ban on Rainbow Cruise just for being messed up in general anyway* And as for Jungle Japes, if I land below the platforms, I'm likely dead anyway. May I in fact point out that water *DOES NOT KILL YOU*. It only kills the Pikmin, who die anyway if you die. If anything, water saves you from needing the gimpable (albeit in a risky manner) Up B. You may have only 1 or 2 Pikmin left, if any, but at least you're not a stock down.

Plus Japes has a good defensive position at the center for Olimar. Nothing like having a platform above you to allow focus on a more major potential blind spot in your defense.

 

[Llumys]

Yeah, about counterpicking..... *uses his ban on Rainbow Cruise just for being messed up in general anyway* And as for Jungle Japes, if I land below the platforms, I'm likely dead anyway. May I in fact point out that water *DOES NOT KILL YOU*. It only kills the Pikmin, who die anyway if you die. If anything, water saves you from needing the gimpable (albeit in a risky manner) Up B. You may have only 1 or 2 Pikmin left, if any, but at least you're not a stock down.

Plus Japes has a good defensive position at the center for Olimar. Nothing like having a platform above you to allow focus on a more major potential blind spot in your defense.

Are you aware Olimar has no horizontal recovery for Japes?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Yeah, about counterpicking..... *uses his ban on Rainbow Cruise just for being messed up in general anyway* And as for Jungle Japes, if I land below the platforms, I'm likely dead anyway. May I in fact point out that water *DOES NOT KILL YOU*. It only kills the Pikmin, who die anyway if you die. If anything, water saves you from needing the gimpable (albeit in a risky manner) Up B. You may have only 1 or 2 Pikmin left, if any, but at least you're not a stock down.

Plus Japes has a good defensive position at the center for Olimar. Nothing like having a platform above you to allow focus on a more major potential blind spot in your defense.

I've been preaching this for months now, man :/
Japes is without a doubt my favorite stage with Olimar. Not saying it's really good for Olimar, but I've found a lot of strategies possible and qualities about the stage that I exploit as much as possible. The hatred towards Japes has died down somewhat, but the thread stages that Olimar mains fear (Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes) will almost always be hated by some Olimar Mains.

 

[Llumys]

Don't get me wrong, Japes gives Olimar a lot of maneuverability, but the ceiling and the water just stop him from doing well there.

 

[Master Knight DH]

I wouldn't mind Rainbow Cruise at all if it didn't have its share of *general* issues that I discovered when I was trying to make a recent video. Otherwise, my ban would go straight to Frigate Orpheon just for the lack of grabbable edges. RC has locations where a Stone Wall can kill another Stone Wall at a low percentage. That just kills the stage for me. It's bad enough the upper half has God knows how much room, but really, a stage where it's quite possible to kill without much effort is.....just no.

As for Japes, that same high ceiling also helps keep Olimar alive if he even gets hit. All he needs to worry about now is side-angle kill attacks.

 

[Llumys]

A character that counterpicks Japes usually doesn't rely on upward kills...

 

[*_Echo_*]

is hilt ever gonna write the summery for ness?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Yes, I've started on the matchup summary, I'm just trying to balance writing this, the reference thread, and modding @_@

 

[Fino]

Yes, I've started on the matchup summary, I'm just trying to balance writing this, the reference thread, and modding @_@

Needs less modding ;D


~Fino