Weekly Match-up discussion 2: Captain Falcon

[Gleam]

Ganon thrives on defense and punishing and he does a pretty good job at it. I dont know how "Great" one would describe it, but in the Brawl Engine it's applicable and it's at least good. Also, Ganon has many lagless aerials or in this case, auto cancels. Uair, Bair, Dair, Nair if you count a full hop. I've even done a few SHFF Bairs before.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So it's official, you don't know Ganon ^_^

No u, I know him and most of his moves do have endless startup lags...of course there are less laggy moves but using only them limits your options.

Basically, I'm just generalizing Ganon the way u generalize the captain

 

[hyperstation]

Jeez, cut it out already. This is so childish. "No u..." <---are you freaking kidding me? Just let it be and chill the f*** out, alright? I'm trying to figure out how the heck this became out playground pride. Everyone, if you're going to post something, make sure it actually pertains and is just not a needless repetition of things already established here, and for god's sake, have the balls to admit when you're wrong or are misinformed. These comments are aimed at EVERYONE, not just Gheb, as might be implied.

 

[adumbrodeus]

No u, I know him and most of his moves do have endless startup lags...of course there are less laggy moves but using only them limits your options.

Basically, I'm just generalizing Ganon the way u generalize the captain

The only generalizations we're doing are the ones that are true. Well, I am anyway.


If you wish to continue this, please address my points.

The situation is as follows:

Ganondorf has a safe poking move, and can approach to it's range without fear of reprisal. This forces Falcon to approach beyond that point.

All of Falcon's approaches are punishable.

Ganon's ground defensive options outright beat Falcon's ground and air offensive options.

Ganondorf punishes approaches VERY well.

Ganondorf can gimp Falcon more reliably then Falcon can gimp Ganondorf because of Ganondorf's superior priority, better dair, and tipman spike.


Yes, those are the main points.

The first plus the second OR the third prove a soft counter.

The rest combined prove a 65-35. So please, if you believe it isn't a 65-35, debunk those points.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I have really no idea, why you think Ganons defense is amazing...

Ganon has very fast, powerful, attacks with good range. He is one of the better characters in Brawl at punishing attacks out of shield. If Falcon hits Ganon's shield, Ganon ALWAYS has an option to punish him.

Falcon can easily punish all of Ganons moves with DownB OoS, something Ganon can't do, thanks to his neverending startup lags

Do you realize that Falcon himself is actually one of the slowest attacking characters IN THE ENTIRE GAME?

If Ganon shields the Falcon Kick, he gets a free tilt on Falcon. Falcon is also not going to be punishing autocancled D-airs very often.

I second both characters, and it's blatantly clear to me that Ganon is a better character than Falcon and that Falcon doesn't have the advantage on Ganon. I personally think the matchup is even though.

If you want PROOF that Ganon is better than Falcon, awesome players like Teh_Spammerer and Emblem Lord will both tell you that Falcon is definitely the worst character in Brawl.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I second both characters, and it's blatantly clear to me that Ganon is a better character than Falcon and that Falcon doesn't have the advantage on Ganon. I personally think the matchup is even though.

If you think it's even please explain why. I have the chain of evidence proving a 65-35 match-up, if my facts are wrong, please explain why.

If you want PROOF that Ganon is better than Falcon, awesome players like Teh_Spammerer and Emblem Lord will both tell you that Falcon is definitely the worst character in Brawl.

Appeal to authority fallacy.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

k, some comments

The only generalizations we're doing are the ones that are true. Well, I am anyway.

I wasn't adressing you

If you wish to continue this, please address my points.

The situation is as follows:

Ganondorf has a safe poking move,

You're talking about dtilt, aren't you? lol I don't know what's safe about it...it has long startup and ending lag and a short lastig hit box...I say Falcons dtilt or DownB Oos can punish it. I really fail to see what's so safe about that move

and can approach to it's range without fear of reprisal. This forces Falcon to approach beyond that point.

It's easy to approach through a laggy move

All of Falcon's approaches are punishable.

And so are Ganondorfs. The difference is that even Ganons moves, that are meant to destroy approaches are ounishable. Falcons nair at least isn't

Ganon's ground defensive options outright beat Falcon's ground and air offensive options.

What options do you mean?

Ganondorf punishes approaches VERY well.

But Ganons approaches are just as easy to punish. Falcons speed and mobility alone can make him find an opening

Ganondorf can gimp Falcon more reliably then Falcon can gimp Ganondorf because of Ganondorf's superior priority, better dair, and tipman spike.

But Falcons recovery goes further and Ganon can't Edgeguard. Ganon is Edgeguarded easily by everything - Falcon isn't. Incidentally, Ganon is one of those characters, who can't easily gimp Falcon.

Yes, those are the main points.

The first plus the second OR the third prove a soft counter.

The rest combined prove a 65-35. So please, if you believe it isn't a 65-35, debunk those points.

It's not 65:35...it's 55:45 for Ganon

@A2zomg

I never said Falcon > Ganon

 

[§witch]

Gheb, you are aware of ganon's 3 AC's right?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yes, I am...

 

[§witch]

Kk, because you kept referring to massive lag on his approaches, and i figured I'd point out the 0 lag out of them. I guess they have a small amount of start-up lag though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If you think it's even please explain why. I have the chain of evidence proving a 65-35 match-up, if my facts are wrong, please explain why.

Mainly just cause Falcon can N-air Ganondorf reliably due to Ganon being tall, which is annoying to work around since Falcon's N-air has low landing lag. Falcon also has more opportunity to gimp Ganon due to being able to jump farther from the stage. While Ganon does have a much better defensive game, it's unwise to whiff attacks on the ground since Falcon does have the ability to punish a variety of whiffed attacks with dash grabs.

Otherwise Ganon does everything else better, which definitely keeps him from losing this matchup.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ganons areials aren't that laggy, sure but neither are Falcons

What pisses me off is some ppl here saying stuff from a biased point of view (I don't mean you, adumbrodeus) by saying stuff like "Falcon is easy to punish and Ganons defense is h4x lololololol" ...
Sure Ganon can't be punished and Falcon has 0 defense. No Shield, no punishing game...yeah right

 

[§witch]

Aye, that's all true. it's closer to even than anything.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I wasn't adressing you

Match-up discussions, everyone is open to respond to everyone's comments. It doesn't matter who put out what point, accuracy is all that matters.

You're talking about dtilt, aren't you? lol I don't know what's safe about it...it has long startup and ending lag and a short lastig hit box...I say Falcons dtilt or DownB Oos can punish it. I really fail to see what's so safe about that move

It's sheildstun is high enough and it's post-lag is low enough to be safe on block, that's all that matters.

Dtilting or vBing will get you dtilted, you'll get outprioritized with the former and the attack won't get out fast enough with the latter.

It's easy to approach through a laggy move

Dtilt has some endlag, not enough to make up for it's raw range, and sheildstun. It also has more then enough priority to stop a number of moves, including anything falcon can use to counter it if spaced right.

And so are Ganondorfs. The difference is that even Ganons moves, that are meant to destroy approaches are ounishable. Falcons nair at least isn't

Again, not dtilt. Ganondorf doesn't have to approach beyond that, he's fine spacing and tossing out dtilts to keep falcon to keep him from getting in closer without committing to an approach.

What options do you mean?

Up-smash, downb, ftilt, dtilt, forewarB, Jab, need I go on?

But Ganons approaches are just as easy to punish. Falcons speed and mobility alone can make him find an opening

Except Dtilt. Beyond that, he has no need to approach.

And not really. His best option is bait and punish, which doesn't work against Ganondorf.

But Falcons recovery goes further and Ganon can't Edgeguard. Ganon is Edgeguarded easily by everything - Falcon isn't. Incidentally, Ganon is one of those characters, who can't easily gimp Falcon.

On edguard, fair is a perfectly good edguard because Falcon can't really punish the endlag, and you lack the position to evade it properly.

Granted, he isn't the best at edgeguarding, but the point is, Falcon is considerably worse. And if he has to use a recovery move, Falcon is in a horrible position.

Both upB and overB are easy targets for dair.

Edit:

Mainly just cause Falcon can N-air Ganondorf reliably due to Ganon being tall, which is annoying to work around since Falcon's N-air has low landing lag. Falcon also has more opportunity to gimp Ganon due to being able to jump farther from the stage. While Ganon does have a much better defensive game, it's unwise to whiff attacks on the ground since Falcon does have the ability to punish a variety of whiffed attacks with dash grabs.

Otherwise Ganon does everything else better, which definitely keeps him from losing this matchup.

The thing with that is, Ganon has a safe poking move, he has no need to approach beyond that point which destroys nair's effectiveness.

 

[§witch]

Dtilt is NOT an approach. it's a poke. You can't approach with it, his AC's and murder choke are, and decent at that.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ganons Dtilt is easy to get around. Uair...nair...Falcon has the options to get through

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ganons Dtilt is easy to get around. Uair...nair...Falcon has the options to get through

In other words, Falcon must approach. Which was my point.

All of his approaches are punishable, and he has to initiate approach because Dtilt is safe on block in this match-up.

Dtilt is NOT an approach. it's a poke. You can't approach with it, his AC's and murder choke are, and decent at that.

My point was beyond dtilt max range, he doesn't need to approach, he just forces one.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

In other words, Falcon must approach. Which was my point
All of his approaches are punishable, and he has to initiate approach because Dtilt is safe on block in this match-up.

Or Falcon can bait out a dtilt and punish ganon with an aerial

 

[Blad01]

Punish with an aerial a dtilt ? Hu, what's wrong with you X] Not every Ganon's move has the lag from his Warlock Punch, you know :x

 

[adumbrodeus]

Or Falcon can bait out a dtilt and punish ganon with an aerial

Not a long enough start-up lag to do it on reaction, he has to predict when Ganon will throw out the dtilt.

It's that way for all poking moves, but the guy poking has the advantage generally speaking. This is of course where mindgames comes in.

After all, if we expected that Ganondorf could force an approach and punish perfectly like theoretically he could, it would be a 100-0 match-up. But this advantage, forcing an approach is crucial to deciding who has the advantage in the match-up, especially since captain falcon has no safe approaches.

Punish with an aerial a dtilt ? Hu, what's wrong with you X] Not every Ganon's move has the lag from his Warlock Punch, you know :x

I think he's talking about on prediction, which is a fair point, though I considered that assumed.

 

[Swoops]

I'm done with this...it's boring. Gheb, I could link you to ALL of Ganondorf's frame data, which shows where Ganon's start up is actually pretty **** good, it's is ending lag that sucks balls. DTilt is safe because of it's shield stun and the fact that it's start up is around 11 frames, with a ending lag of around 22, not too mention the IASA properties it has making it seem deceptively slow on cool down.

This is all factual stuff....actual evidence. Whereas you're just stating ridiculous stuff with no backing. Ganon's defense is exceptional (and getting better mind you) because his moveset is based around it. I've given you examples...look at them. I've personally mained Falcon for a time as well as most of the low tier, and seen a lot of their strengths and weaknesses. Falcon has potential, no doubt, but in general, his kill moves are hard to get off even though they don't kill at that great of percentages (except knee) and his moveset is based around comboing when there is none in brawl. Every potential "combo" he has can be reset with an airdodge or spotdodge, and falcon doesn't have the damage dealing ability or gimping ability to back that up.

I'm not even going to comment on Falcon kick punishing everything Ganon has...it's simply untrue and Ganon has too many things that destroy falkick.

 

[LinkSceptile333]

Fun Fact:

Ganondorf's and Captain Falcon's Fsmash have the same start up and ending lag.

 

[:034:]

Dunno if that makes Falcon slow or Ganondorf fast.

Whatever, this discussion = ******** anyway.

 

[__V]

I'd like to know why everyone thinks that CF only can Falcon Kick.

Falcons tend to approach from the air, or feint and dash attack to aerials. Whether it hits or not, Falcon Kicks are very punishable.

 

[LinkSceptile333]

That is true.

I say we lock this thread.

GANONLOCK

 

[adumbrodeus]

Nah, in case we get legitimate new information, it's good to leave open IMO.


I think from this discussion we can be even more secure in our estimate of the match-up.