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Weekly Character Discussion: Zelda

BlueTerrorist

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Here are the rules:
- DO NOT SPAM IN THIS THREAD!!!
- Do not create another topic for Zelda, discuss it here or I'll see to it your thread is closed at Sonic speed. No need to spam the boards with something similar to this.
- I know there will be debates, I only ask that you keep it civil. Tell the people you bring from the other boards that too. Any hint of flaming and stupidity that said person will be dealt with swiftly, I'm not gonna tolerate that mess here

Does she **** Sonic or is it neutral or is it the other way around? Discuss :).
 

TwinkleToes

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BT, did you just copy paste? You say "do not create another topic for Ice Climbers" when this is a Zelda thread :x

Anyways, I find this to be a pretty easy match-up overall. Shouldn't have much problems unless Zelda decides to go Sheik :O
 

ROOOOY!

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I actually find the combination of Zelda and Sheik to be hardest. Sheik's not that hard, but once you get to a high percentage and they switch you know you're done for.
Zelda though...bait out attacks by cancelling approaches? Up smash and Fsmash both have a little ending lag iirc so you can run in there for a grab or whatever.
Don't let her camp you with Din's Fire, that's an obvious one. Spacing well is important because a lot of Zelda's attacks have good range.
**** her downsmash though. The most overpowered move in the game IMO.
 

ShadowLink84

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Din's fire isn't the greatest issue on its own its her smashes.
They are all very fast and have minimal lag and all of them outprioritize you.

Its similar to facing Snake, once you get her in the air things become much more easier.
It isn't very difficult to approach her but she has far more killing power than Sonic does and her overall attacjk speed is better too.

Dash grabs, DAC and spincharge are good for approaching.
Do not use your homing attack often her Usmash will **** you.

Be very wary of the Dsmash, not only is it fast but it links directly from Dtilt.
 

Tenki

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IMO this one should take Sheik into account, since the majority of Zelda players will use Sheik for damage, and switch to Zelda when you're at a high %.

Zelda's scary when you're 90+%.

I played against RyokoYaksa (Sheik/Zelda extraordinaire) via wifi (green connection). I noticed a bit of trouble concerning Sheik that I'll mention if we do a Sheik matchup/combined one here. But vs Zelda, I seriously just suck at dealing with Usmashes. lol don't get caught by the invincibility transformation bait (Sheik dies> respawns and immediately transforms to Zelda and catches you with Usmash if you try to hit cause she still has invincibility frames XD). I did see some interesting moves that I haven't seen other Zelda people use.

It's not an impossible matchup, but most of my wins were done via taking advantage of player habits, like dodge or recovery, rather than outmanuevering Zelda's moves, which points towards an advantage for Zelda (and IMO it's a major one, considering Zelda generally only appears as the angel of death when you're almost dead).

Her kill moves are... well... sweetspot B-air/F-air/U-air/U-tilt/Dsmash (somewhat rare)/U-smash (somewhat popular). Isn't that a pain in the butt?

vs Moves-------
Din's Fire isn't too bad, I mean, anything that covers you with an attack box (hint, any aerials, ASC, even spindash roll, if you wanna clangcancel it into a dash move) will protect you from the fire.

Her F-smash is actually kinda tough to punish from the ground, and it's somewhat spammable, so don't be caught off guard by a followup. It's a bit like Lucario's Fsmash, except it's multi-hit, and you better take this into consideration.*

U-smash can be done sliding (not sure if it's out of a dash or DAC'd, but I see Zeldas use it), so don't be too sloppy when you're close to her.
However, you can hit Zelda from the front (not sure about back??, or maybe it was the other way) with a spincharge during her Usmash, if you want a counteraerial setup, or F/D-tilt for disruption. It has a freakish reach and can catch you out of an aerial or even a dash. Think of it like Sonic's U-smash, but with much more launch power and reach.

On a silly note, falling springs will clang-cancel the U-smash, if you have some strategic use in mind.

U-tilt is much faster, but single hit. It doesn't have the range nor power of Snake's U-tilt, however, it still kills pretty darn early (low 100s?), so don't just think she has U-smash.

D-tilt is sometimes used as a tripper/'lock', and if you're sloppy by the edges, a meteor as well. Sets up for smashes, so watch out for it.

Nayru's Love - Zelda's neutral B, has invincibility frames and lingering attackbox, so you can't immediately grab her out of it. You might be able to hit her from the top, but trying to hit her from the sides is a no-go. This will be used to stop your momentum, especially when you try to punish something like (what you think might be) landing/move lag with a grab.

Aerials: N-air is like Ness' where it will stop you. Her other aerials are used for killing, and just assume that you're playing a good Zelda who will space well and do absurd things like nail a sweetspot Lightning kick right before she lands.

You might never worry about U-air, but be warned, it has freakish reach. I was standing about 2-3 character distances from the edge on Final Destination (spaced to "tip" a possible ledge getup/attack with Sonic's Fsmash) and I got nailed with a U-air from under the lip in FD.




*I have a bad habit of trying to pshield moves. It sounds like a good thing, but normally, when I'm in the pshield mindset, I let go of shield right away so I can attack or something right away. However, this is not true for Zelda. Hold shield for the duration of the attack, and if you can, dodge the last part of Fsmash/Usmash. If your shield gets eaten, run away for a bit.

I need more matchup experience with good Zeldas ;__;
 
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Ok, I first throught Sonic vs. Zedla wasn't a bad match up at all. But now the ***** from Hyrule is a pain.

Din's fire: Not that muc hof a threat to me

F smash: A bull**** move that kick my butt.

up smash: if you add 10x Sonic moveset you would know up smash with Zedla is hell on earth if nail by it.

air game: Good god!!!! Since when does a chick with a dress have this good of a air game(i.e Peach back in melee.) nair is crazy and b air is a mega sadface for me.

The rest of her moves are ZOMG to me, but still good. But if there a ***** match up I can't stand it this freaking ***** from hyrule who has kids with link.

P.S. No disrespect to Zedla/shiek users.
 

Umby

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I definitely advise using DAC when you can. Hyphen Smashing won't cut it. Also, watch the Fair/Bair -> Nayru's Love or Double Bair when trying to punish. Most likely want shield dash grabs if you are attempting to do so.

If you're following up from a Spin Dash and it gets shielded, I highly suggest double takes instead of jumping. Zelda likes to punish with usmash if you aren't careful. If you're trying to grab from an ASC, be on your guard as usmash makes that somewhat more difficult to do as well.

When trying to juggle Zelda, predict Farore's Wind and punish. I suggest VSDJ for fake outs in the air.
 

R4ZE

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you guys do know that ASC completely cancels Din's fire so long as you hold forward right? it even continues after din's fire is done.

i dont have many problems with zelda... just avoid smashes and bair... and u should be straight.

ASC into her.. cut at 45 degrees to avoid usmash and fsmash, if u do it to low, hold sheild and go for a grab.

if u know u will get punished... cancel the ASC and jump away... its easy mode. =)
 

ShadowLink84

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IMO this one should take Sheik into account, since the majority of Zelda players will use Sheik for damage, and switch to Zelda when you're at a high
True but it depends on what happens.
Since we'll assume Sheik comes out first you will have an issue but it isn't overly hard to avoid getting hit by her smashes.
You can actually DI her Fsmash so that the second hit does not land at all.
Her kill moves are... well... sweetspot B-air/F-air/U-air/U-tilt/Dsmash (somewhat rare)/U-smash (somewhat popular). Isn't that a pain in the butt?
Not really.
Her Uair is very easily telegraphed so you should very rarely get hit by it.
Bair and Fair are difficult to land on Sonic and considering the rather limited sweetspot hitbox it shouldn't be a great issue.
Utilt/Dsmash/Fsmash are more dangerous IMO.
They are fast, have greater power and near impossible to punish.
The Usmash isn't as fast as the other kill moves but once she Dsmashes you off the stage you are placed in a position where she can more easily Usmash you as you try to recover.

Her F-smash is actually kinda tough to punish from the ground, and it's somewhat spammable, so don't be caught off guard by a followup. It's a bit like Lucario's Fsmash, except it's multi-hit, and you better take this into consideration.*
Agreed. Unlike Lucario's what it lacks in range it makes up for in speed and priority.
U-smash can be done sliding (not sure if it's out of a dash or DAC'd, but I see Zeldas use it), so don't be too sloppy when you're close to her.
However, you can hit Zelda from the front (not sure about back??, or maybe it was the other way) with a spincharge during her Usmash, if you want a counteraerial setup, or F/D-tilt for disruption. It has a freakish reach and can catch you out of an aerial or even a dash. Think of it like Sonic's U-smash, but with much more launch power and reach.
Just to add to this, her Usmash acts sort of like TL's Dsmash.
Several of the hits pop you into the other hits. So if you are unlucky enough to DI too early you'll get sent straight up to your death.

You can DI out of it though.
Same for the Fsmash.


Zelda isn't extremely hard but I do think that she has a slight advantage.
Unlike Peach she does not have an aerial game capable of giving you difficulty.
Its her ground game that causes issues and that can be got around.

ASC is much more useful in this matchup than a GSC, mainly because it breaks Din's fire and you can cancel it with a shield in case Zelda wants to whip out a Usmash/Dsmash while you are near her, allowing you to punish.

Also once she is above you, Sonic gains a massive advantage. Zelda cannot do much and because Sonic is adept at keeping an opponent in the air, its very well advised to do so.


Has anyone else been using the springs to keep their opponents in the air?
I like to use it against Snake and other ground based characters.
 

Tenki

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Just to add to this, her Usmash acts sort of like TL's Dsmash.
Several of the hits pop you into the other hits. So if you are unlucky enough to DI too early you'll get sent straight up to your death.

You can DI out of it though.
Same for the Fsmash.
/!\

how? when? which direction? :O
 

TwinkleToes

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^Don't get too excited. A lot of people have claimed to have done it but when people try it's really inconsistent. It seems to be more of a luck of the draw thing.
 
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you guys do know that ASC completely cancels Din's fire so long as you hold forward right? it even continues after din's fire is done.

i dont have many problems with zelda... just avoid smashes and bair... and u should be straight.

ASC into her.. cut at 45 degrees to avoid usmash and fsmash, if u do it to low, hold sheild and go for a grab.

if u know u will get punished... cancel the ASC and jump away... its easy mode. =)
Thanks this might make things better for me. But Zedla is just one the character that give me trouble. The bad match ups(i.e Falco, Marth, Wolf, and MK.) are that hard for expect Mk :(
 

R4ZE

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Well. my advice, if you don't already use ASC... try to incorperate it. ASC changed my sonic game a lot and helped me beat MK and Wolf.

Ive never really had problems fighting marth or falco tho.
 
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Well. my advice, if you don't already use ASC... try to incorperate it. ASC changed my sonic game a lot and helped me beat MK and Wolf.

Ive never really had problems fighting marth or falco tho.
Marth easy to beat that why. He got some game, but I think he's overrated.
 

Tenki

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u not hav fighterd emblem lordz!

Marth's a pain, especially if he spaces well. But this is about Zelda.

Also, if BT checks this before the week is over, can we make this a Zelda/Sheik double deal?
 

Umby

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Marth is not overrated. It's just that his playing style looks so simple, when it's really just effective when it comes to spacing and pressure.
 

TwinkleToes

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Yeah, it's pretty effective when you get to swing a huge disjointed hit box in someone's face that has good damage and killing power. It's also really gay.
 

Tenki

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chhshhh talk about Zelda.

if you're gonna talk about a different character in the Zelda thread, at least talk about Sheik.
 
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Kasr is jealous that he can find no one to be yaoi with.
very funny umby. And this coming from a crapper Sonic player(just joking.) And Tenki I'll talk about zedla if you give me a 100 dollars.. Anyway when I fight a shiek it a pretty darn even between the both of them. Both character rock at racking up damge pretty fast, but when it come to killing they fail epically to have any good kill moves. so my question is can kill faster Sonic or shiek? 'Cause it hard to say for me. But let's the all mighty tenki asnwer my question. Hell, the man know anything about Sonic.
 

R4ZE

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Fighting sheik feels like fighting a knee-less captain falcon for me... soo not too challanging.

Does anyone else have ahard time understanding why they took out all of sheiks good moves and gave zelda a few new ones?... they both seemed pretty balanced before.. but now i never see any sheik players. (i kinda like that tho.. not gona lie)

anyway.. sonic should be at worst an even matchup to sheik.. and thats without any specific tips to fighting him.
 

ROOOOY!

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Agreed, I mean you've gotta look at what Sheik's got. She's all about gimps, and Sonic is one of the harder characters to gimp, so she REALLY struggles for KO's. The Sheik I play against, when they don't turn into Zelda (which they usually do) is usually having to wait til about 150+% to kill me.
Neither Sheik's or Zelda's recovery is too hot, but they're both quite good in the air so gimping them might not be that easy.
 
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Shiek is a walk in a park for me also. But it funny for someone like Sonic killing faster than Shiek. I was susprise by that, and ALMOST impossbile to gimp Sonic' sexy recovery. One o fthe best recovery in the game hands down.
 

Browny

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why anyone even wastes a second trying to KO with shiek is beyond me, when zeldas KO moves are superior in every single way
 

R4ZE

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well it isnt as easy to change between sheik and zelda as it was in melee... thank god.

idk... still zelda is pretty crippled without din's fire spam... it leave her with smashes and bairs imo.

granted, i dont play spectacular zeldas... then again.. i find it hard to beleive that many exist because zelda is one of those chars that people like to abuse the OP moves, dins fiar and bair.
 

MalcolmM

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zelda was one of the worst characters in melee...and shiek was one the best. they werent balanced before...at all. They were on completely different spectrums...one was almost unusable in tournament and one was designed to win tournaments.

I mained zelda for 2 years in melee.

Zelda in brawl is just a giant fortress of attacks. Zelda cant deal with Sonic's speed so most players try to deal with any sort of approach by F-smashing or Dins or her neutral B. This sounds like it could be problematic but Sonic has alot of feints so it becomes rather easy to make the Zelda player look ********. It COULD just be that she has the EXACT same weaknesses in melee and that I mained for so long that made the matches I just played against a brawl Zelda so easy, but I think its one of Sonic's better matchups.

Zelda is undeniably a decent character...she has her flaws but she does have some good matchups. She has absolutely NO approach, just like in melee so she plays a patience game. Punishing Zelda is tough since her moves have alot of hits and pushback, but it is possible.

Her U-Smash is Verrrrry Odd and considerably different from melee. You can no longer DI down and automatically escape...which made the move not usable. It now takes tap DI away and down to get out of the move...and even then its still tough to consistently do. Another thing is if you happen to JUMP or land on top of it...you can tap DI UP and get out sometimes.

Her F-smash still looks good, but it still quite flawed. If zelda does her F-smash and you are running towards her and you HOLD towards her...for some odd reason the F-smash doesnt connect. U take about 3% and go straight through the move. That's because U DI'd out of the multiple hits and the actual 12% attack didnt actual come out yet. So with this in mind if you have good tap DI you can get out of her F-smash quite frequently. I personally am quite good @ it cause people used to **** me in melee by DIing all of her smash attacks.

Her D-smash is STILL her fastest move and still her GTFO move. The first hit on the downsmash comes out faster than her jab. The upside is the downsmash is one of the few moves with enough lag to punish. If you shield the first part you can punish how you choose (grab against zelda)

I wrote about those 3 moves specifically cause those seem to be what most of the comments are about.

Other interesting tidbits of information...

If she dash attacks you it has two different angles it sends you @. If you are hit with the beginning of the dash attack you go upwards...the ending part you go to the left or right. If they dash attack your SHIELD you can shield drop F-smash because the move is horrendously slow.

If you shield a LK you can shield drop Fsmash. (sweetspotted...)

Her teleport has a hitbox during the FIRST few frames of the move. The actual teleport itself takes seemingly forever and you can hit zelda in nearly all of that magical green spin she does.

There are a few angles that Zelda just hates to be in. Learn them. Go to training mode and mess with the teleport below the level for about 5 minutes....you can see how limited it really is. If you see her below the stage...fast fall a fair so you dont do knockback just stun and watch as shes put into one of those doom angles that I so frequently tried to avoid in melee.

Her Up-tilt is safe on shield if she is INFRONT of you. the move is quick in the front but has an insane ending lag, while it takes a second to hit behind her there is minimal lag on that part of the move.

This is rather situational but if shes for some odd reason is floating towards the ledge and you see her attempting to grab the ledge....just jab. do a solo jab and watch her fall into that exact same angle of no return.

edit: so with all this stuff thats DI'able or punishable you should be able to find one opening. Once you can get that first attack in you have to keep the momentum. getting the first hit in is the hardest part!
 

TwinkleToes

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Gimping Zelda is pretty easy since you can just attack her with anything the second she goes into up-b. Also, given how precise her aerials are, it's also rather difficult for her to do anything other than air-dodge your movements. So it largely becomes a game of you predicting teleports and air-dodges. I just dair the crap out of her most of the time, but anything will do really.
 

Tenki

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I can't get the effects that Malcom listed (for vs Usmash and Fsmash) to work ;_;
 

MalcolmM

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U absolutely cannot? Well in all honesty that is the DI i use for both attacks and I more often than not take 3% from either of them and avoid the knockback. The F-smash is the same DI used in melee....(unless u were jigglypuff and then you could just crouch cancel -.- ). The U-smash is just whats been working for me recently since i just played a zelda in tournament on saturday. I was getting wrecked by it so i tried switching my DI up everytime i was trapped because I swore there had to be a way out (there was in melee =/ ) and away and down i'd say about half of the time worked for me.

edit: aight yo so after u wrote that tenki i actually decided to start up my game and test it out myself. the u-smash was seemingly random. I tried different smash DIs and Dual stick Smash DIs and it didnt seem to matter what direction i pointed it in. Sometimes I got out and othertimes I was trapped in it. The F-smash on the other hand I was able to just take consecutive F-smashes in practice mode until about 250% before i got hit by the real thing just by SDIing up and away....altho I believe away is a preference and UP is the key.


But what i wrote earlier is still proved somewhat true. I ran into the move a total of 10 times and only got hit by it twice. The other times sonic recieved the 3% from the multiple hits before the last hit but avoided it somehow and ended up behind her. But yeah thanks for makin sure my stuff was correct....i was jus goin by what i remembered on saturday.

TL, DR U-smash is inconsistent....Fsmash is SDI up. TY tenki 4 keepin my things accurate.
 

Deathwish238

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Ok, I first throught Sonic vs. Zedla wasn't a bad match up at all. But now the ***** from Hyrule is a pain.

Din's fire: Not that muc hof a threat to me

F smash: A bull**** move that kick my butt.

up smash: if you add 10x Sonic moveset you would know up smash with Zedla is hell on earth if nail by it.

air game: Good god!!!! Since when does a chick with a dress have this good of a air game(i.e Peach back in melee.) nair is crazy and b air is a mega sadface for me.

The rest of her moves are ZOMG to me, but still good. But if there a ***** match up I can't stand it this freaking ***** from hyrule who has kids with link.

P.S. No disrespect to Zedla/shiek users.
THANK YOU!! omg i've been saying the same thing for a while now im pretty late on this cuz i just gave up. but idk she's a hard match up and she eats ur F'ing shield and if u let it go just a milisecond b4 the whole f-smash/u-smash ends u get blown away into oblivion! just like pikachu's d-smash ugh i hate playing against those two characters sometimes i rather play meta...like seriously.
 

thecatinthehat

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THANK YOU!! omg i've been saying the same thing for a while now im pretty late on this cuz i just gave up. but idk she's a hard match up and she eats ur F'ing shield and if u let it go just a milisecond b4 the whole f-smash/u-smash ends u get blown away into oblivion! just like pikachu's d-smash ugh i hate playing against those two characters sometimes i rather play meta...like seriously.
FAIL'


for giving props to KASR
for bumping a dead thread
for bumping a dead thread to give props to KASR

GTFO


 

Deathwish238

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LMFAO! my bad its just that a while ago i kept on complaining on zelda and nobody except i think tenki helped or said anything on it yeah i noticed im late and yes i realized i bumped this again nice pic :D ily <3 lmfao no homo XD
 

aeghrur

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LMFAO! my bad its just that a while ago i kept on complaining on zelda and nobody except i think tenki helped or said anything on it yeah i noticed im late and yes i realized i bumped this again nice pic :D ily <3 lmfao no homo XD
Why the hell are you still posting?
Didn't cat say GTFO?
Shut the fuck up and GET THE FUCK OUT Uhh, I don't mean this if I get banned. I mean this if I get steak... even if I get banned. =)
 

Camalange

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Hello Deathwish.
 
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