We need to make serious improvements

[Zhea]

Bair has it's uses. It can be used to cover roll behind if you go for an early whiffed stomp/knee or grab for tech in place, combos with reverse edge canceled uair on floatier characters at early percents, and is a decent option for shield drops. Also this move is your bread winner for the jiggs match up. The problem with bair is that it's falcon's middle of the road move. It's not as hard hitting as stomp or knee, it's not as fast as nair or uair, but it auto cancels and can be done from the ledge and allow falcon to regrab without having to up-b, so it just happens to be most useful there.

To quote Hax, edge guarding spacies is an art form, and if they have their double jump you really have to read them. Let me go over some of the edge-guard flow chart

1. Do they have to go to the edge? If you have hit a spacie with such force that the only part of the stage they have a chance of grabbing is the edge then you should just go for the edge hog and roll/get up attack for the additional edge hog frames when the get close.
   
2. Could they land on either the edge or lip of the level? If you are not sure whether or not their fire fox will make it to the edge or the lip, your best option is usually invincible getup attack followed by wave dashing back on to the edge. If they went for the edge they are now dead, if they went for the lip, they are now off stage and you need to re assess your situation.
   
3. Are they above the stage and close enough to also land on a platform? Now it gets tricky. This is highly position based and also depends on whether they have their jump or not.
   1. They have their double jump. They either have to do something incredibly stupid or you have to make a hard read if you want the edge guard. You can not cover every option, even from Falco if the above criteria are true. It's also dependant on your position
      1. You are near the edge. You straight up have to know where they are going. They have 4 options and you can cover 2 at most.
         1. The edge.
         2. The stage.
         3. Platform.
         4. Top Platform.
         5. Deep Stage. If the were in a spot to do this you should of just knee'd/uair'd them.
            
            Realistically you can only cover 1 and 2, 2 and 3, and 3 and 4. The good news is at a certain point 4 stops being an option. Good double jump usage can keep 3 in the game for falco, and fire fox can keep it open for fox.
            
      2. You are mid stage or further. Your best option here is to just maintain stage control and use your speed to cover super high (platforms) or super dumb ( side b on to stage ) options. At the very least you have center stage and have strong positioning for neutral.
         
   2. They do not have their double jump.
      1. You are close to the edge they are recovering from. Great, Hax$ it or let it rock, you decide. Jump on after them, and when you here the ting, dj uair immediately. If they ever reach a point where they have drifted beyond side-b distance, then DJ back while uairing to catch any early up-bs and grab edge, refer to points 1 an 2 for what to look for from here.
         
      2. You are beyond mid stage or farther away. You are now in a hard read situation unless you are on Yoshi's and maybe FoD. You will have to make a hard read if you want to edge guard them.
         
4. Are they below the stage and close enough to recover above a platform. This really comes down to where you are.
   1. You are on the edge, either by sliding onto it or because of an earlier edge guard. You can drop down and dj bair/uair to gimp them.
      
   2. You are on the lip of the edge and will not have time to grab the edge. This depends on their angle now.
      1. They are directly below you. Stomp is really your only option if time is of the essence. It puts them in an immediate fire fox or die situation. Reassess situation immediately afterword. See situations 1 and 2 if they now apply, other wise finish them with a drop off bair.
         
      2. They are below you, but a bit further out. WD back bair or Dropzone weak knee to uair will close it out.

More later, these are just some initial thoughts. I think the most important skills when edge guarding spacies is identifying immediately what they still have (DJ) and what they can do with it (Where can they recover, or how can they intercept your edge guard).

 

[KUSH.]

ive found that bair is great against aggro foxes, but watchout for cc at lower percents
edit ninja'd

 

[tarheeljks]

yeah, good call. jiggs mu is an exception. i bair far more against jiggs than anyone else

 

[Double Helix]

You guys have to tell me if I am wrong, but I know this would be true if I mained Falcon so here goes.

Stop trying to look ****ing awesome. From the sound of things, you guys know the tools for the most part, but Falcon combos look so cool. I get it guys...you wanna look awesome, but go back to FUNdamentals. You have to think about the fundaMENTALs. The main ones that I see needing stressed are:
covering options
effective edgeguarding
playing smart in terms of:
using knees (and other moves)
tech chase options
playing on reaction

These are just a few things that stood out to me. I know it is what is trying to be said, but sometimes you have to look less character specific. I thought I would throw it out there because this would be my undoing as a Falcon player, and I think Scar had this problem too lol

 

[Zhea]

You guys have to tell me if I am wrong, but I know this would be true if I mained Falcon so here goes.

Stop trying to look ****ing awesome. From the sound of things, you guys know the tools for the most part, but Falcon combos look so cool. I get it guys...you wanna look awesome, but go back to FUNdamentals. You have to think about the fundaMENTALs. The main ones that I see needing stressed are:
covering options
effective edgeguarding
playing smart in terms of:
using knees (and other moves)
tech chase options
playing on reaction

These are just a few things that stood out to me. I know it is what is trying to be said, but sometimes you have to look less character specific. I thought I would throw it out there because this would be my undoing as a Falcon player, and I think Scar had this problem too lol

Did you read this thread? Or any of the last 2 years of falcon discussion? This post confuses me.

Off topic tangent. I think the jiggs matchup is in falcon's favor, but you have to play it completely different than any other match up with falcon. It's a lot of spaced bairs and countering out of shield with uair and knee.Very light onthe combos, because you shouldn't be hunting for grabs. I personally dislike it, but it's effective

 

[Double Helix]

Well yeah. I mean...I just don't really know how troublesome some of this stuff is for Falcon, but I just meant, if Falcon players generally get better at the game, then it may be easier to talk about this sort of thing. Sorry if this is offensive to anybody because I don't mean for it to be. But before talking about specifics, many Falcons need to play with the mindset of improving these specific things. I find it much easier to think about specifics after I generally improve my game in a certain area. For instance, recently I wanted to improve my off stage game as Ness (my main), so I just went out with a lot of nairs and built my confidence because before I was uncomfortable with his offstage game. After getting better offstage in general I looked at my options.

So basically, to use one example, practice to play on reaction by just reacting for awhile, then figure out the specifics on when/how to react. That is just an example. I just wanted to post something that helped me, and it may help someone else too.

 

[Zhea]

That isn't a falcon problem, that's a anyone who isn't playing to improve/win problem. Sorry, but your kind of hitting on things that became standard 3 years ago.

 

[Double Helix]

Sure, but it is always worth stating. I have seen it in other communities. They forget to use that mentality then wonder why things aren't working. I wasn't intending to come off as though it was a ridiculous find or new news; I just wanted to make sure people are continuing to play with that mindset. Those who aren't won't get anything from this thread.

 

[6VI6]

Falcon just looks flashy whether he wants to or not generally.

Weak bair is an underutilized combo extender imo, though I guess Falcon is pretty good at extending combos anyways.
That said, strong bair works its way into my combos frequently for whatever reason, if I'm not playing against a fastfaller. Also pretty good with shai dropping.

 

[Zhea]

Helix I know you mean well, but name a top level falcon with bad fundamentals. I just want to know why it was relevant in a discussion about how top level falcons or people aiming to be that, should explore to improve the falcon meta game as a whole.

 

[Double Helix]

I feel as though this thread is useful for all Falcon players regardless of level. Sure, the target audience is high level smashers, but lower level Falcon players will probably read this thread, and gain a better understanding by doing so. Sometimes I feel as though looking at things from a general perspective may make things easier anyways. When I try do this sort of thing, I think very generally. I don't know. Maybe you guys are looking for specifics, but I usually brainstorm the general and specifics come to mind. My thought process is a bit weird I guess.

Edit: Also sometimes I get really ****ty ideas among the actual good ones.

 

[Ziodyne]

General Falcon game planning is relatively simple

Planning for all the smaller contingencies for Falcon though is crucial, because Falcon is such a momentum heavy character so many of these smaller details can be the difference between a stock lead and a stock deficit. Gotta think about the right hitboxes in the right spot to get the right effect, or else risk getting hit, combo'd, killed.

IMO

 

[Double Helix]

Oh. See...I thought that was just Scar lol. Looks like a few of my posts can be completely ignored then.

 

[Zhea]

Scar does have quite a few flaws, but he is so strong in other areas he still preforms at a high level in a tough region. The only top Falcon I would say is purposely too flashy is jeapie.

 

[Double Helix]

Lol. Yeah, and then there is the Scar nair. XD

Anyways, I guess I should be gone. I don't know enough at this point to further push this conversation in any sort of direction.

 

[KUSH.]

i liek what zio said. its usually the edgeguarding derps that end up hurting me in the long run.

 

[thespymachine]

First, I want to spread word on the post I made in these Falcon boards, trying to get people to analyze Hax vs S2J: http://smashboards.com/threads/hax-vs-s2j-analysis-incoming.338827/ (I'm actually on these boards right now to contribute to it)

Second,there's a lot of stuff being said here that I haven't read, but I love what's going on.

Third, am I the only one who think there's a lot of expression available in Falcon's DDing and moonwalking? I mean, since his ground game isn't great, his pivot game isn't the best - but he seems to have a very large initial-dash, as well as a very strong moonwalk. I suck, but I was experimenting with different approaches by varying how/when I DD/MW'd.


Anyways. Loving the work here.

Scar does have quite a few flaws, but he is so strong in other areas he still preforms at a high level in a tough region. The only top Falcon I would say is purposely too flashy is jeapie.

Oh man. I love watching his movement though.
Gonna take notes on it, and see how I can apply it to approaching/mix-ups/whatever.

2) We don't take advantage of our ridiculous crouch canceling power. Falcon has better numbers then any top tier when it comes to CC and since grab is the best thing since sliced bread for falcon we should really abuse this.

Shows you how much of a noob I am when CC grabs never occur to me, lol

 

[KUSH.]

not tryin to be a **** but the falcon ditto matchup is kinda straightforward, we should focus on his tougher matchups imo...

 

[thespymachine]

not tryin to be a **** but the falcon ditto matchup is kinda straightforward, we should focus on his tougher matchups imo...

I absolutely agree. Just riding the excitement from EVO.

I do think Hax vs PPMD would be a great place to look next. Then probably Hax vs Ice. Then S2J/Westballz vs Armada? As far as EVO goes, that is.

Is anyone else baffled by this btw?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqgKbPJwQfo

Imagine how good everyone would be playing Mango and having him **** talk your horrible decisions the whole time. This video is definitely going to be a go-to for note-taking. lol

You top Falcons need to be shield dropping (or at least) dash shield dropping (which is a lot easier and there's no excuse not to use it if you're any good. I'm still working on consistency because I'm bad but still). Imagine being able to comfortably platform camp Falco and pretty much neutralizing his lasers.

After seeing what my friend can do with Yoshi's shield-dropping, I dedicated hours to getting it down. I can do it pretty consistency - just have a hard time doing it with shield pressure. It's a beautiful thing though.
Trying to implement upair and bair into the equation now.

 

[Ziodyne]

not tryin to be a **** but the falcon ditto matchup is kinda straightforward, we should focus on his tougher matchups imo...

I actually friggin' hate Falcon dittos though lol. I think I'd rather play against a Falco. Maybe even a Sheik. Falcon dittos are just a lot about who spaced better and got the first hit, but I dun even know how to space well against Falcon. I think I miss a lot of easy punishes and get hit too much by dumb **** in this matchup.

 

[thespymachine]

I actually friggin' hate Falcon dittos though lol. I think I'd rather play against a Falco. Maybe even a Sheik. Falcon dittos are just a lot about who spaced better and got the first hit, but I dun even know how to space well against Falcon. I think I miss a lot of easy punishes and get hit too much by dumb **** in this matchup.

I personally love Falcon dittos, for the exactly "Falcon dittos are just a lot about who spaced better and got the first hit" - it forces you to understand your character's spacing much better, and punish well. On top of that, when you play someone similar in skill, your focus goes to your mixups and you end up finding things there that you never knew.

In general I think dittos are awesome, so yeah... lol

 

[KUSH.]

yeah it is a trippy matchup forsure. some tips i find helpful;

gentleman is a life-saver especially if you can do the magus buffer thing with only using A, ive learned it and its a godsend.

obviously nair to grab is the go to against falcon.

his techroll sux so be sure to get a couple of regrabs

Watch for the classic aggressor falcon who loves to nair/knee back on stage once he is thrown or aerial'd off stage, that is a free shield grab/up tilt assuming you time it right and not get hit

first hit nair is a very good mixup option

watchout for his getup attack that **** gets me everytime, but if you bait it, tis a free dair to knee which should be a stock

 

[Ziodyne]

Tech-chase regrabs are super easy. They don't do a lot of damage though and most Falcons I know just don't tech at a certain point, in which case I feel I have to make a read somewhere down the line. Maybe I don't though, I'll try just tech-chase regrabbing and if he doesn't tech, I'll shield or crouch in front of him and see what he does.

Come to think of it, I'm also pretty bad with edgeguarding/killing Falcon at relatively high percents if I can't get a knee. I just knock them upwards and then they have freedom to recover high.

 

[gravy]

Do you guys think we should make an effort to make flow chart style decisions? I'm interested in what your opinions on that type of play style are.

 

[Zhea]

I'm not talking about mapping out every little thing, but it's good to under stand how hard a read a given edge guard situation and be able to make the a better informed decision on whether to go for the kill or not.

 

[gravy]

I, for one, am always going for the kill.

 

[Zhea]

There are some times though where the read you have to make involves a full jump knee across the stage and if you miss, you are going to get edge guarded yourself. There might be a safe option to cover, but if you never cover the other one, they will just adapt and always take it.

 

[thespymachine]

Falcon isn't the most reaction-based character, so kills/combos off of reads are even more important.
Doesn't mean we always have to (hard)read for a kill (which is the purpose of these last few posts), we can just mitigate the cost of guessing by 'flow-charting' possible outcomes (link: goes to HugS second blog post about being heavily influenced by Armada's guessing game).

It seems up-air is safe (and can help you cover your opponent's options) in many scenarios where a hard-read would get you a kill - and, in those situations, it could get your opponent off-stage which is good news.
Actually, you can see many good Falcons go for a stomp/knee at the location where the opponent would be on a roll/tech in, and then follow that up with a regrab wherever the opponent went - so it's not like they're are always going for the kill, they are being pretty safe. But, using up-air on grounded opponents forces you to be closer to the ground, which is much safer and puts you in a better combo position. Yeah?

 

[Captain Smuckers]

Do you guys think we should make an effort to make flow chart style decisions? I'm interested in what your opinions on that type of play style are.

yes

 

[Zhea]

There are just certain situations where we should go to the book and take our stock. Like if Marth goes below the level, getup attack at the edge, WD back to edge hog, and if he lands on stage, either reverse knee or stomp knee. Or a fox/falco fire foxing withing drop off dj bair range. Some stuff should be by the books. Other stuff, like being a the edge when fox has his dj and is off the level and above the stage need to be read. You should always have the confidence to make your read and stick with it, because the only thing worse than missing a read you were confident in is missing the read you second guessed halfway through

 

[gravy]

I really think we should try to minimize the read aspect and maximize the reaction aspect. If you have a preconceived notion of something that's going to happen, you're only going to have amplified reactions for that specific thing. If something happens that you didn't expect, you're going to get slowed down.

 

[tarheeljks]

you can make reads and still cover options

 

[Ziodyne]

We SHOULD map out all our flow-chart options though, just so we know what exactly we can use.

Who's volunteering?

 

[TerryJ]

We SHOULD map out all our flow-chart options though, just so we know what exactly we can use.

Who's volunteering?

You've read my mind. You should check out this post I made in the frame data thread. I REALLY want to do this, I just need the tools. I firmly believe that Falcon has a set of TRUE combos on each character if we were to just map them all out. I've been thinking about this for the past few weeks.

 

[tarheeljks]

Sdi is a powerful tool that we can make better use of, or I can at least. I do it in some specific situation (e.g. Escaping jab resets from Sheik, falco's shine, ledge teching), but there are various instances where it's just as useful. I am thinking about falco's dair in particular. Good sdi on the shine may save 30% damage, but good sdi on the dair may prevent the shine from even connecting.

 

[gravy]

Another thing we're seriously underdeveloped on is shield angling and shield sdi. We're a bad character in shield, and we need to make up for it more than other high tiers do. Lets discuss how to get the best shield sdi possible.
First off, is it worth trying to actually spam sdi in shield (going from 10 degrees above to 10 degrees below desired direction) to get the maximum affect, or do you think the risk of accidentally rolling is too heavy?

 

[6VI6]

I would just time the shield sdi properly. Shield stun tends to last longer than I think, but finding when I can act out of shield earliest has always been a problem for me.

 

[gravy]

We have to get efficient as **** at this if we ever plan to stomp gay birds (falcon being the manliest bird.) it's just not acceptable to get locked down in our shield by stupid stuff like lasers and pillars.

 

[Citizen Snips]

I was, uh, replying to the idea of using Falcon's side-B as a recovery move. Can aerial side-B be CC'd (I assume not cuz it's a meteor)?

Ledgehop knee trick sounds interesting. Can it really be done with a good amount of invincibility frames?

Edit:
@gravy I feel better already haha

Chinese internet probably ****ing me up

Aerial raptor boost I'm pretty sure is actually more CCable than the ground based one. Either way, yes, it can be CC'd, and no, it's rarely a useful recovery. If anything gets in your way (Turnip, opponent, shy guy), you will die a useless death. The only time I've ever seen it as useful is if your opponent expects you to go low to Falcon dive and drops off the ledge to cover it, and you're still taking a risk since you would have to read that they're going to go low.

Unless there's some serious shenanigans in play, I see no possible use for Raptor Boost as a viable recovery.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

do you kids understand why mango is so good
lemme tell ya

when people play this game they have all this **** in mind that helps them (or hinders them) to make their next decision
preconceived notions of risk/reward
percentage and position
"oh I haven't used this yet, he won't expect it"
doubts about your counterpick choice

everything
99% of players are bogged down by all these thoughts cause it's the natural way of making decisions, a conglomeration of all of these things that seem important

but the truth is that if you devote all of your thought process towards answering one question
"what is he going to do next?'
and turn all of your movement into muscle memory
you will take Falcon to the next level

what is this **** about focusing on reaction instead of reads ffs