Official "We are one with the Battlefield" - Shulk Stage Discussion (Currently discussing: Pilotwings)

[kenniky]

Ye, that's what I meant by cannon & laser . Cannon shot can be countered, but only when we counter from the ground. We cannot vision counter from the air. I think the Cannon shot hits twice if you're in the middle but I think it's weird. Anyway, it doesn't have any weird properties with Vision afaik, so if the cannon shot were to shot & coming down positioned behind you & you input Vision, you'll turn around accordingly to counter that direction.

When we use Back Slash Charge against the multi-hitting laser, we're stuck in the laser which is hilarious. You cannot SDI out of it while doing BSC & The laser locking onto you will deal 37% when all 33 hits connect. The last hit deals 5% & it can KO. My advice is not to do this lol.

The Claw will hit us dealing 10%, & we can Vision counter it from the ground & in the air.

Most importantly though, we cannot Vision counter the multi-hitting laser with a regular grounded counterattack. I mean we can, but when Shulk steps back & then attacks, we could get the attack in hitting the other person if you both were locked in the laser, but the laser will trap us. Make sure that if you do decide to do this, get the hit in & SDI out of there quickly. Oh & we can Forward the attack to slip past it without being hit.

And yes Jump Shulk can shark with UAir. Ledge-drop away & drift toward them & follow it up with Doublejumping UAir to hit them while still holding towards the other ledge & Air Slash accordingly. However, it varies on what Jump Art you choose to use because Decisive Jump & Hyper Jump shark differently with their different jump heights & fall speeds including their different height increases to all the Air Slashes. FAir also works because the hitbox starts above Shulk too. Advancing Air Slash can snap to the ledge while sharking back n forth to each ledge, just don't dip too low while drifting to the other ledge.

@ Berserker. here's the Halberd Stage research thread kudos to @ParanoidDrone & anyone else apart of the Stage research.

Cool. I'd like to add that because Halberd has a soft floor we don't have to aim for the ledge although it's of course a lot safer. If they're at a good spot (above you slightly to one side) we can pop out of the bottom with Air Slash and hit them.

 

[ElectricBlade]

Sorry to be off topic, but im curious if this thread will discuss 3DS stages one day?

 

[Berserker.]

Sorry to be off topic, but im curious if this thread will discuss 3DS stages one day?

Probably not

 

[ElectricBlade]

Probably not

Ah, alright then

 

[erico9001]

What else can be brought up for Lylat Cruise? I'm just going to go mess around in it for a little.

Going under the stage and then popping up with Air Slash from under it is kind of fun. Can possibly surprise opponents, or not.

Unforgiving lip on part 2 of stage.

Love that legendary air ride music.

The platform on part 2 of the stage seems to be exactly the height of Battlefield's lower platforms. So, advancing air slash CAN connect the second slash.
On part 1, the second hit of AAS can connect if on the upper part going in, but not the lower, middle part.

If on the lower, inner part of the first stage, it is very easy to land Bair on somebody who is on the upper, outer part.

Generally, the best place on stage 1 to be is on that lower, inner part. Monado Speed helps get you there.

Hey, doesn't Monado Shield generally worry about being sent off the stage horizontally, not vertically? If you're using Monado Shield, possibly Decisive Shield (with AAS), I don't think the vertical height of the ceiling would be much of an issue (of course, it must agree with the MU).

WHAT IF WHAT IF

You stand on the edge of the crosshair, forward-Vision the first hit of the laser, and hit your opponent backwards into it?
They may go over the top of it, or be able to DI out of the laser, but it'd be hilarious and that surely counts for something.

I'm gonna play around with Visioning these hazards in a sec, because I'm paranoid that Vision won't work for some of these.

EDIT: Okay, so... I'm starting to think Vision isn't going to be too useful with the stage hazards.
The thing I realised is that Shulk's Vision activates in the direction that the attack hits him, not the direction he's facing.
Worth noting that this was done in Training Mode, %-wise.

Spoiler: Usage of Vision with the hazards.

Claw - It doesn't do too much damage anyway, so if you counter this you'll get a nice hit (13%) but don't expect anything great. Gotta have fast reflexes since as far as I know there's no telltale sign on who it'll go for.

Bomb/Cannon - This one is incredibly hard to make use of with a counter. Like, stupidly hard, don't do it. Because of the direction the Vision moves is connected to where it hits Shulk, he will always Vision towards the blast's centre. More often than not, the blast radius actually covered the entire range of the Vision so the opponent was hit too far away. I managed to land this once. I had Shulk on the very edge of the blast radius and Captain Falcon next to him, just outside. When I Visioned, Shulk turned his back to Falcon, did the 'backwards hop animation' of the Vision which placed him behind Falcon, and then rushed forward and did some huge amount of damage and knockback. The only time I can think this would realistically land a hit is if the opponent opts to air dodge through the explosion.

Laser - Like with the cannon, Shulk will Vision towards the centre of the laser, which is obviously bad. The only realistic way to do this is for the laser to be aiming for you, for it to hit you square on (don't move once the crosshair stops following), and for you to forward-Vision. It'll put Shulk out of harms way and potentially hit an opponent into it for ~37% (which is equal to the full laser damage). Not sure if they can DI out.
It can technically be done if you stand slightly back from the centre and forward-Vision towards it (like if it's aiming at the opponent and you're right up against them), but your opponent won't be standing there to take the hit. If you ever do this, make sure you know where the Vision will place you - because if you're going to Vision into the edge of the stage or a platform, Shulk won't run off it and you'll have a bad time. If you don't forward Vision you'll have a bad time. Vision too early you'll have a bad time. Risky play, but I bet it'd be hype as hell if you ever landed this at a public event.

I don't believe the visual placement of the laser or the claw in the background have any effect on what direction the attack is considered to hit Shulk. I think they're always considered to hit Shulk from their epicentre going out.

So in short, claw doesn't do much damage in the first place to do some huge counter, bomb/cannon covers Vision's entire range and to make the Vision hit you need such perfect physical spacing that Vision is useless outside of avoiding the damage, and the laser can be used but make sure you forward Vision towards the centre and that you won't escape the laser into a ledge.

Dash Vision would make these more useful, just like the Mom on Gamer stage! Dash vision helps make any countered stage hazard less situational.

Mighty air slash would be magical in this stage though but because of some reasons (I still think it should have had a slot somewhere), it's not in any of the custom presets. So yeah

Agreed. Oh well. Just because it's not on the set list doesn't mean it can't be used, though. There's room to possibly get 1133 set onto the list for fall, when the stuff can apparently be updated.

Another reason why MAS is better than usual on this stage is recovery with it does not have to be predictable, thanks to the semi-soft floor on part 1. Also, MAS or AS can't be stage spiked then.

 

[Berserker.]

Polished the OP a bit because it looked ugly

Keep discussing Halberd. Lylat will be next soon

 

[Berserker.]

Lylat is now open for discussion

 

[AlvisCPU]

Oh hey, the opportunity to say some things before everyone else completely covers what I want to say. I've done some basic mucking around on the stage as I write this.

As a few points...

• The "new" underside mechanics making you slide up to the edge are great. He'll slide up from a fairly great distance. Especially nice with this new feature, is that Shulk's Air Slash can hit grounded opponents (maybe even short-hopping ones too) on the slanted edges of the stage. Air Slash's vertical rise on the second hit doesn't seem to ride up the side.
• Stage itself is apparently a little bugged now because I just recovered up through the stage... that's probably for another discussion.
• The platforms are the perfect size to be entirely covered by an up-tilt. Nair goes without saying, and I'm pretty sure fair covers most of it. That said, these platforms are quite low - it feels lower than Battlefield's but might not be. I worry that opponents that normally wouldn't be able to hit you with an utilt/smash when you're on the platform on Battlefield may be able to hit do so here. Just did a quick check - Mario's utilt can just nick you while you're on the platform on both stages. Not sure if stage tilt influenced there.
• The tilting of the stage will help Shulk in most cases, in my (un)professional opinion. If you've got the high ground, you can give Shulk's ftilt a little extra height, almost as if it was tiltable - so can be anti-air, especially if they jumped from a lower position than you. At the same time, if you're going uphill you could be slicing through the ground at its most extreme and near the edges (probably not ideal). I don't think the tilt is severe enough to make any of Shulk's moves seriously hindered, unless the opponent is someone like crouching Kirby. With the stage sides, I guess you can get a little extra height on dtilt or dsmash, which is alright I guess. In general, I don't think you lose much with the low ground and it's advantageous to have the high ground, especially against projectile-heavy opponents. Besides, everyone knows that if you have the high ground you automatically win
  Spoiler
• Vertically, Shulk can always recover to the ledge without Jump unless the stage is tilted away from him.

In terms of Arts:

• With Jump, you can cross the underside of the stage, though it's tight. I'm not sure if there's any competitive value in this or it's just showing off - I see people pull this off a bit with other characters, maybe it could give you the chance to shake off an edgeguard?
• I wouldn't exactly say this stage has a low ceiling (compared to Halberd at least...) From the platform you can get some really good height, with Jump double-jump just leaving you onscreen (minus tilt). I feel Shulk could get some fairly early vertical KOs with uair because of this.
• With Speed, because Lylat is mostly flat with platforms being covered by a lot of his moves, I believe this is probably somewhere where Speed will be at its best. His SH Nairs will still cover the entirety of the platforms (unless you fast-fall too soon), you can chase and catch platform landings with utilt.
• Nothing too unique can be used explicitly in Shield imo.
• I think Buster and Smash are really only affected by the tilting, and in the same way. Get a little extra height on some attack, factor the slanted edges into your range, get people onto platforms and abuse your range.

When I started writing this, I was of the opinion that this was somehow a bad choice for Shulk. I thought the platforms were a little lower, maybe the ceiling's a little low, so maybe other characters could abuse this stage's features much better than Shulk could. Though now I've picked it apart, his coverage of the platforms and Speed's free range really does help him. I still think I'd prefer to play Town and City or something personally, but this stage does have its merits.

Anyway, first sort of write-up I've done for this kind of thing in a while. Hopefully it doesn't suck. Interested to hear what others have to say on this stage.

 

[erico9001]

The side platforms are about the height of Battlefield's side platforms, in that Speed FH and Jump SH can land on them. However, when it comes to using Advancing Air Slash, it can whiff toward the side platforms with a very large tilt. The middle platform is more like the height of Smashville's, so Jump SH or Speed FH do not land on it. This would give trouble for AAS, but it can usually be delayed so that you get out from over the platform. Here's a picture to represent where you can use grounded AAS.

Air Slash can still be killed by under the stage if on a side that is tilted down a lot. In that case, delay the second hit while drifting towards the edge.

Shulk's not bad here. Although, I'm not sure when this would be a better pick than other stages. Against characters you want to avoid battlefield with (the ones with better sharking), you should probably also avoid this. Hmm... maybe against projectile users who might be messed up by the tilts?

 

[Peppa]

Lylat is a stage I've been trying to work for Shulk, since it seems like a janky Battlefield almost, but I'm still unconvinced I should aim to pick it in a tourney match(Though I do, because I hate FD and DH and I don't feel comfortable on Smashville versus faster higher rush down characters; its also a good cheesy stage to pick due to the lack of familiarity most people have)

I won't add in any repeat info our lovely Shulkettes have given, but as smaller stages go, I do like this one for control of the map. Nair covers a huge area here, and a lot of people(who are unfamiliar at least) are very hesitant about being overly aggressive when the ground and platform can be cover. Due to the smaller space of the map, I do definitely personally favor fair here, its a better option versus people who get antsy.

As a stage goes, now that you don't float below the stage and watch yourself die, its a decent stage pick for Shulk. A lot of people here will choose roll get ups or short hop aggressive approach, because they want to stick as basic as possible as moves to feel safe.
This leads to my favorite kill option a lot of the time, PP FSmash tilted down. It covers a huge range including rolls as usual. If I'm not mistaken, its the earliest killing variation and I like playing here because it reminds me that we have smashes as moves. Running upsmash reads are also decent, the platforms are janky and smaller, you can work these to your favor. Air Slash is great in catching attempted jumps to a platform due to how low they sit its hard for people to get around your range here. Setting up or trying to read and getting a reverse vision at the end of the stage is very helpful here, probably the earliest kill option.

That being said, the blast-zones(with me being lazy at work and not looking them up here) feel small or average, and with our great coverage on the tiny stage means we will have not much trouble racking up percents or killing.
However, we do suffer the same problems of it being a small stage against rush-down. The stage tilts can mess up peoples perfect shield punishes, which is a plus, but we can also get juggled here decently. I honestly only like jump to camp if I'm ahead to stall and recuperate here. It can be hard to take your time on Lylat, so I really do prefer buster or speed here, so we can cover our options fast or strong instead of playing that chicken game we're used to. I have no opinion of shield here outside of a quick change in a tight situation then discarding it, or keeping a lead. When it comes to kill options, Smash is surprisingly useful here, I'd give it a try as long as its safe.

Smaller characters are a pain in the ass, I've seen dtilt whiff somehow versus crouchers. Utilt is okay, but not as good as usually. You'll probably spend a lot of time in short hop aerials here, as ftilt just isn't that great, and the third hit of jab can really screw up.

 

[AlvisCPU]

Smaller characters are a pain in the ***, I've seen dtilt whiff somehow versus crouchers. Utilt is okay, but not as good as usually. You'll probably spend a lot of time in short hop aerials here, as ftilt just isn't that great, and the third hit of jab can really screw up.

This actually reminds me of something that I didn't realise when I was half-asleep writing my other post. I mention that because of the stage tilt you can get your own ftilt higher and lower than normal - whenever this happens, (if you consider the horizontal plane to tilt with the stage) you're exchanging horizontal range for the change in height. So you'll need to really make sure that your ftilts are pulled a little closer than normal when the stage is angled.

There were two other things I remember that I accidentally left out. In the "platform game", SH bair can cover the entire platform, and Back Slash is also capable of hitting opponents on the platforms from the ground. Might get a surprise hit in. Shame the opponent won't spend most of their time on the platforms.

 

[Monado Master]

My main gripe with this stage are the ceilings. Sure, we can take advantage of this with smash art u-tilt or u-smash (kills at fraudulent percentages) but the issue here is that smash art also reduces our weight, like what Mace said. I can't really think of the mechanics that Shulk can take advantage of. Maybe the stage hazards, I guess.

The OTHER MAIN ISSUE and the reason why I strike (and hate) Halberd is because there are more characters that can benefit from this stage more than Shulk. I can name 'em:
(U-air)
(Up B)
(Up B)
(Up B)
(Up B)
(U-smash, u-air)
(U-air)
(Up B)
(Up-air)
(Up-air)
(U-smash, u-air)
(Up B-Piston punch)
(U-air)
(U-smash)
(U-smash)
(U-air)
(U-smash, maybe u-throw)
(U-tilt, U-smash)
(U-air)

You know what all these moves and characters have in common? The listed moves aren't even THAT hard to land or to string into. There are probably more characters but basically, Shulk IS NOT one of them. I make it a point to strike this stage as much as possible.

I still don't know why this stage is legal in with the new engine of Smash 4 and with the new mechanics. It's baffling to say at the least but I'll not digress the discussion to my opinion about Halberd's stage status.

Yea, i don't really like this stage because of the low ceiling and the fact that some characters like the character posted above in the quote. Especially :megaman4:, :4miifighter: and really have a major advantage.

 

[AlvisCPU]

Does Lylat have a lower ceiling than normal? I'm legitimately not sure when it comes to blast zones unless it's the vertical ones on Halberd or Kongo Jungle

With Lylat, the consensus seems to be that it's an uncomfortable stage in general yet a decent stage for Shulk. But are there any characters you wouldn't want to take here? Do you think projectile characters like Link and Duck Hunt could abuse the tilting and overall use the space better than Shulk can? Blast zones would affect this too, like with Halberd.

(Edit, clarity: Just in case, I mean opponent characters you wouldn't want to bring here. For example you wouldn't want to go Shulk vs. Diddy on Halberd because he can abuse the ceiling better.)

 

[kenniky]

Does Lylat have a lower ceiling than normal? I'm legitimately not sure when it comes to blast zones unless it's the vertical ones on Halberd or Kongo Jungle

With Lylat, the consensus seems to be that it's an uncomfortable stage in general yet a decent stage for Shulk. But are there any characters you wouldn't want to take here? Do you think projectile characters like Link and Duck Hunt could abuse the tilting and overall use the space better than Shulk can? Blast zones would affect this too, like with Halberd.

Linear projectiles generally become unreliable on Lylat. Link and Duck Hunt would be fine but characters such as Samus or Robin don't do as well.

 

[erico9001]

Anyone up for castle siege next? I think this stage is an excellent counterpick for Shulks.

 

[AlvisCPU]

Anyone up for castle siege next? I think this stage is an excellent counterpick for Shulks.

I'm up for this. If we agree to go to Castle Siege now, I'll edit my thoughts into here.

 

[erico9001]

Castle Siege is definitely a good stage for Shulk.

To begin, here are some sources about blast zones:
http://smashboards.com/threads/wii-u-stage-blast-zone-data.395357/
http://smashboards.com/threads/ceiling-height-research-thread.384187/

Transformation 1:
- Easier kills for us
Shulk is primarily a horizontal killer - F-smash, F-tilt, off-stage Fairs, Bair, Air Slash, D-smash, D-throw/B-throw. Of course, he does have some capability for vertical kills: Uair, U-smash, U-tilt (more Monado Smash though), and Mighty Air Slash (possibly regular air slash if high enough). Those kills are rarer, so Shulk relatively benefits more from horizontal blast zones being thinner. This transformation of Castle Siege has the thinnest blast zones from the center other than transformation two, and is still pretty thin when compared to the edge of the stage as well (185 makes it only beat by Halberd stage two and walk-offs, for legal stages).
- Improved (or hindered) spacing.
The slant on stage in the middle can be used to improve spacing if you are attacking an opponent who is on the right side of the stage. When you land on it, you will slide away during your landing lag, making you hard to punish. A reversed Bair is threatening while in that position.
- That slant can help our Nair combos to connect.
- When on the lower part of the slant, the second slash of Advancing Air Slash will hit grounded opponents.
- Try to remain on the bottom portion of the stage.
There are just more options when you are down there.

Transportation part:
-Flat stage + Walk-off
Try to exploit this for the short time it lasts for an easy KO. A Monado Speed pivot grab might just do the trick. Lasts only 2 seconds.

Transformation 2:
-Statues = Win against projectiles
You can attack and maneuver through the statues, but most projectiles are stopped by them This makes them great cover against projectiles.
-Walk-off
The walk-off is nice for monado speed pivot grab B-throws. Also, D-throw -> Dash -> Fair can land some fantastic kills.
-High, plentiful platforms
Useful for stalling in Monado Jump (great for waiting for Shield art's cooldown to finish).
-High ceiling, thin horizontal blast zones
This stage actually has the thinnest blast zones from its center, AND it's a walk-off. This stage has the earliest horizontal kills of any. Its vertical blast zone is only beaten by Kongo Jungle.
-Notes:
Be aware that the statues can screw up MALLC timing. They give extra hitstun.
Buster deals more damage to them. Be cautious about that. They have about 60 HP.
The cloth platforms at the top of the stage go off-camera, but are not walk-offs.

Transportation part:
Same deal as the first transportation part, but if too far towards the sides you could end up off-stage when you arrive at the third transformation.

Transformation 3:
-Horizontal kills still easier, but not as much.
Horizontal blast zones are a little thin from the center, but not as much so. However, they are just about as thin as stage one when compared to the edge of the stage. Relatively average vertical blast zone.
-Tilting of stage can help or hinder spacing, and help or hurt Nair combos connecting.
Yep, this again.
-Tilting of the stage can mess up projectiles
-There's a slanted bump on the left side of the stage.
-No platforms

Transportation part:
Same circumstance as the second transportation, but try to be even farther from the edges, since the first transformation is smaller than the third.

Other information:
-Each stage lasts about 43 seconds, so approximately 2 decisive arts.
-The transportation part can save you from dying on the bottom blast zone.
-Stage shakes for 3 seconds before transforming. Use this to time your BA off-stage back slashes XD.
-Transportation part lasts 2 seconds.

 

[Linkmario00]

Can we cover Trasformation 1's platforms with Uptilt?

 

[erico9001]

Can we cover Trasformation 1's platforms with Uptilt?

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, but that's okay. Vertically, U-tilt definitely reaches much higher than the platforms. The height of the platforms is just a little bit shorter than Smashville's. Monado Jump SH cannot land on them. However, Monado Speed FH can. The one on the right is just a tiny bit shorter than the one on the left. If timed correctly, the second hit of AAS can just barely strike above the one on the right, but not the one on the left (From directly below on the ground). It's hard to time, though.

If you mean horizontally, if you are in the middle of one of the platforms, it will cover the entire length of it.

As for the second transformation, Monado Jump's SH CAN actually land on the bottom platform, but just barely. Monado Speed FH is a bit higher than Monado Jump SH, so Speed FH lands on it too. In regards to if AAS works from the ground below the platform, it acts similarly to the platform on the right side of the 1st transformation, but has more lenient timing due to being a little lower. Curiously, neither Monado Jump SH nor Monado Speed FH can land on the second highest platform from the top of the lowest platform. Though, Monado Jump FH can land on the second highest platform from the ground. The same goes for a Speed FH + Double Jump. U-tilt cannot reach that second highest platform nor the two higher ones on the sides. Monado Jump FH + double jump does make it to the top of the high, side platforms.

This is somewhat unrelated, but I just noticed that one FH in Monado Jump can maneuver you across the majority of transformation 1.

 

[Linkmario00]

Yeah, actually I intended horizontal cover (obv I knew Utilt can reach vertically, but thank for the answer).
I mainly use Jump in Castle Siege. Especially in Transformation 2 I really need that air mobility for cover the high platforms, and in Trasformation 1 one jump can cover all the length of the stage. In last Trasformation I found speed more useful, however. No platforms so air mobility is less needed.

 

[Berserker.]

Whoops. I forgot about this thread. Anyway, we're gonna discuss Duck Hunt now. I'll just fix the OP and title

 

[kenniky]

Duck Hunt is actually one of my favorite stages which is weird. I guess I like being able to see the whole field.

Stuff about Duck Hunt:
blast lines don't really go far off the viewable area iirc. The ceiling is still moderately tall but the sides are really skinny, which helps Shulk as he has a lot of vertically killing moves such as fsmash, ftilt, Air Slash, fair, bair, bthrow, and dthrow. bottom blast line is pretty high up too. Bottom and side blast lines are kind of deceptive though.
There is a shrub to the right, this can be almost entirely covered with utilt or bair iirc. Pretty neat.
Ducks are ducks. Hitstun happens. I guess you could use it to extend the time on some hitboxes like bair but it's super situational
Dog pops up sometimes. about the same width as shrub. Random so it's kinda hard to predict (pops up after every wave of ducks though)
tall tree to the right. I like to retreat here after I get a kill to safely switch arts.

You can use the tree to camp out characters with bad verticals like Little Mac, Dr. Mario, or Mii Brawler. anti-sharking with nair or dair I guess? (is that even a term)

Duck Hunt I think has enough space to be able to space properly, do retreating fairs and all that stuff.

cool stage imo

that was a lot of random thoughts

 

[Berserker.]

Only Kenniky has a good grasp on this stage?

 

[Masonomace]

I forgot to mention my Zero to Death setups on Castle Siege with Shulk but I'm too late.

Duck Hunt is an alright stage in my eyes. I don't choose it often but we can do some neat things with the Jump & Speed Arts yet mostly with the Jump Arts & to an extent the Shield Arts. If you're rolling Hyper Arts then good luck using the Hyper Speed or Hyper Shield Art to try landing on a tree shrub because you won't be able to without an Air Slash.

Duck Hunt's Blast Zone Data found here shows that it's not that large than what I thought it out to be. It's vertical height is about the same as Halberd's 1st transition & the horizontal height is the same of Battlefield. What threw me off was probably that Duck Hunt the stage itself is a large stage to play on, giving us a bunch of spacing room & breathing for patience & such.

Note:
Jump Arts have different jump heights whereas the Decisive Arts don't have different jump heights for the Speed & Shield Arts.

For Jump Arts:

• None of the Jump Arts can make Shulk even Short Hop high enough to land on the bush to the very right side of the stage
• Jump Shulk's Full Hop with or without an aerial can land on the lowest bottom right shrub on the tree. This is especially awesome with NAir & FAir
  
• Jump Shulk can land on the lowest shrubs at the most bottom right & the most bottom left with just the 1st hit of Air Slash
• Jump Shulk can land on the lower middle shrub & the upper middle-right shrub using both parts of Air Slash
• Jump Shulk Decisive Jump Shulk & Hyper Jump Shulk all can quickly Short Hop or Full Hop jump squat into a quick doublejump to reach the very top shrub on the tree
• Decisive Jump Shulk's 1st hit of Air Slash can land on the lower middle shrub
• Decisive Jump Shulk's AND Hyper Jump Shulk's Full Hop cannot even land on the lowest bottom right shrub
• Hyper Jump Shulk's 1st hit of Air Slash can reach the upper middle-right shrub alone
• Hyper Jump Shulk's 1st & 2nd hits of Air Slash can reach the very top shrub

For Speed Arts:

• A Full Hop & doublejump with or without an aerial as Speed Shulk can barely make it on top of the most bottom right shrub
• Running from the middle shrub to the bottom left shrub to the bottom right shrub to running off drifting airborne looks fancy with stylish footwork

For Shield Arts:

• A Full Hop with or without an aerial as Shield Shulk can land on the bush located on the right side of the stage
• A Full Hop & doublejump with or without an aerial as Shield Shulk can make it on top of the most bottom right shrub

 

[kenniky]

To be fair I have heard that not a lot of people like this stage so it rarely gets picked

I'm just weird in that I like it a lot. I think the best aspect of Duck Hunt is the breathing room that you have, it's a fairly big stage in comparison to its blast zone size. Also you can see all of it at all times, that's a huge plus as well especially against characters with good stage control like PAC-MAN

It also has great music, Murasame Castle and Famicom Remix are both pretty good

 

[erico9001]

Oh crap Duck Hunt. Sooo

Despite what the thin camera line suggests, Duck Hunt actually has one of the widest blast zones in the game. It is wider than FD from the edge, and tied for 1st for widest from the middle of the stage (alongside Battlefield and Kongo Jungle). It's pretty wide. However, at the same time, it's also pretty tall. We hold no real advantage or disadvantage when it comes to the blast zones. However, the top of the tree has the earliest vertical kills in the game. So beware .

Duck Hunt Dog is not random, but can surprise you if you are not aware of how he works. It's actually really simply where he will show up. It's wherever the last duck that was killed hit the ground. Imagine that DHD is just in the background behind that grass, picking up the ducks when they fall. The only thing is the dog cannot go passed the shrub or the tree. So, if a duck dies behind one of those, the dog will spawn somewhat close to the plant but not too close. If one duck is killed but not the other, then it is the same deal, where the last duck hit he ground. If no ducks are killed, then duck hunt will spawn, laughing in the middle.

In competitive play, you'll want to avoid hurting the ducks. They will remove your move's freshness, and you need to stay fresh! They also slow you down, messing up your MALLC inputs. Although, there is some benefit in thatthey extend the active frames of your moves.

I particularly like Monado Jump on this stage because of the open area and ability to control the stage by jumping between the bush and the tree. The ducks can occasionally block projectiles for you, so with Jump improved it's nice against Zoners, I think.

There are a lot of different things that you can do using the platforms, but I will need to write those up later.

 

[Masonomace]

The Z-axis is also gone, which could mean our spotdodge is worse? Dunno on that but I could give it a shot of testing it.

In competitive play, you'll want to avoid hurting the ducks. They will remove your move's freshness, and you need to stay fresh! They also slow you down, messing up your MALLC inputs. Although, there is some benefit in thatthey extend the active frames of your moves.

This part screams NAir to me. It's one of several moves in our moveset that we should not be afraid to stale. NAir is active for a long time albeit the move ending behind Shulk will be finished by that time, but NAir is also that one exception that does more damage with the outside Beam hitbox & not the Blade (1% isn't a big deal but damage is damage ). Once the move has hit a flying duck, we could use that to our advantage to slightly extend the activity of the hitbox swung around Shulk & add any mixture of positioning to it like drifting and or fast falling. The Jump Arts wouldn't mind doing this for us.

 

[kenniky]

In competitive play, you'll want to avoid hurting the ducks. They will remove your move's freshness, and you need to stay fresh! They also slow you down, messing up your MALLC inputs. Although, there is some benefit in thatthey extend the active frames of your moves.

Or, when opponent dies you can hit them with uair/dair/usmash/Back Slash to unstale other things. Same goes for statues in Castle Siege and Arena Ferox.

 

[Masonomace]

Or, when opponent dies you can hit them with uair/dair/usmash/Back Slash to unstale other things. Same goes for statues in Castle Siege and Arena Ferox.

Actually, this is a good idea to stale UAir DAir but not USmash unless we're staling just the 1st hit of USmash. Back Slash is secretly our missing almighty savior so we shouldn't stale that unless it's Back Slash Charge because then it wouldn't matter.

A good reason UAir or DAir could be great ideal moves to stale is to just connect with the 1st hit of each so that the 2nd hits are fresh. DAir airborne will hit ducks for 5% so that's not a big deal, meanwhile UAir's 1st hit will always deal a base damage of 5% as well. Although we could stale with the 2nd hits if they were sourspots but that's eh to me.

 

[kenniky]

Actually, this is a good idea to stale UAir DAir but not USmash unless we're staling just the 1st hit of USmash. Back Slash is secretly our missing almighty savior so we shouldn't stale that unless it's Back Slash Charge because then it wouldn't matter.

A good reason UAir or DAir could be great ideal moves to stale is to just connect with the 1st hit of each so that the 2nd hits are fresh. DAir airborne will hit ducks for 5% so that's not a big deal, meanwhile UAir's 1st hit will always deal a base damage of 5% as well. Although we could stale with the 2nd hits if they were sourspots but that's eh to me.

I mean u smash is only really used as a kill move which will probably be after ten hits anyway so

 

[Berserker.]

OKAY, so what stage should be next? You guys decide this time. Should we re-discuss something or discuss something new and if it's something new, what stage do you want?

 

[Masonomace]

OKAY, so what stage should be next? You guys decide this time. Should we re-discuss something or discuss something new and if it's something new, what stage do you want?

I was just gonna say real quick that if I vote Castle Siege it's only because of the Edge-Slipping Buster Locks I figured out using any Buster Art especially HBuster.

Essentially, I found a Zero to Death lock setup that involves the 2nd transition of CS & acts as a pyramid effect going from the upper top platform, to forcing them tumbling down to the lower 2nd platform, then tumbling to the floor. After all the difficult locks you've performed, very quickly deactivate the Buster Art right as you're taking landing lag from your aerial with Fast Falling required & pull a 9B moment mashing B to quickly cycle to Smash Art while you're inputting a dash & running towards their forced getup & proceed with the dash grab to Smash D-throw of truth. It's definitely not easy to do but because of the walk-off blastline close by, you're getting that Zero to Death payoff. It's definitely character-specific but HBuster doesn't care of the character-dependency since the knockback decreased is so extreme.
════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
As for a new stage to discuss, we could start discussing the Miiverse stage but it'd be identical to discussing Battlefield. What about Dreamland or Delfino Plaza?

 

[kenniky]

Dreamland is basically Battlefield with wind

I'd say Delfino, I have literally no idea how to play this stage :/

 

[Berserker.]

Dreamland has shorter blast zones overall iirc.

Also, I'm gonna start putting stage summaries.

 

[Masonomace]

If Dreamland is essentially a Battlefield with a wind blow then we could briefly talk about that & how it affects Shulk and his Monado Arts. My problem is that I didn't get the stage yet so I don't know of the researching with the Whispy Woods tree's wind effect. Although, from past experiences with windboxes / push-effect:

• Jump Arts, Speed Arts, & Buster Arts don't do anything notably different for Shulk alone, but the wind push effect would surely assist or hinder Shulk depending on the direction the wind is blowing (I.E. Jump Arts drifting with the wind pushing essentially makes Shulk ride the wind while jumping offstage for an edge-guard. Speed Arts running with the wind is UBER FAST or when running against & through the wind head-on is something I'm sure the Speed Arts are capable of as long as the Whispy Woods tree isn't Gust Bellows level of dumb.).
  
  
• Shield Arts & Smash Arts are the Arts that do change the effectiveness of a wind push effect in that Shield Arts reduce the push effect while Smash Arts increase the push effect. I suppose that goes with these Arts' nature of increasing / reducing several kinds of knockback via attributes.

 

[Berserker.]

Battlefield

Battlefield is a stage with 2 features, platforms and a flat stage. There are 2 lower platforms that are slightly above the flat stage (respectively above the left and right portions of the flat stage). 1 platform is floating above the 2 platforms aligned at the center. The stage itself has an imperfect geometry (the under portion) so be careful when recovering.

This is considered to be one of Shulk's better stages. The presence of platforms allows him to use those platforms to easily pressure his opponents with his range. His f-air, n-air, u-tilt, and b-air are most notable when it comes to this regard. Their range is long enough to pressure opponents standing on platforms. In jump mode, you can SH and use an aerial to intercept anyone standing on the lower platforms, which also allows you to cover ledge options nicely since you're zoning the platforms. Speed mode allows you to do the same thing also except you need to FH your aerials.

Another thing to note about your range's synergy with the platforms is that you can even attack opponents from below with your range if you manage to catch them with your hitbox. N-air, f-air and d-air are capable of poking through platforms while being above them (n-air is possible to use for as long as you time it right). One of the main issues with using n-air, f-air, or d-air for this is that all aerials have landing lag unless you MALLC the said aerial. Shulk also has good options when he's attempting to depart from a platform: Shulk can also go off the platform and use b-air or he can go through the platform and use n-air.

Back slash finds some actual use with the platforms. Its hitbox is large enough to intercept opponents while they're above the platforms. You can even land an actual back hit with the delayed hitbox if you manage to space it right. For more info, @ erico9001 has provided us with info regarding this:

When on ground, back slash can hit the opponent who is on the platform above you (use when somewhat away). If you are facing their front it is common for you to actually get a hit registering as a back hit, and if you are facing their back you may actually get a hit registering as a front hit. Testing this out - it seems if the opponent is in the middle of the platform (facing towards the middle of the stage), you will usually get a back hit when you are just below the yellow corners of that platform. You can use this to judge distance (it's ~half of the platform). There is a small window in each direction for which this will work. You get the back hit on his front if you are closer, and the front hit on his front the farther you are. As for the full distance away that back slash can hit the opponent (without acting as hitting from the opposite direction), it coincidentally looks to be a full platform length. Therefore, if the opponent is facing towards the middle of FD from the middle of a platform, you can roll to the ledge and back hit his back because that is ~1 full platform length. When practicing this, do keep in mind opponents don't spawn exactly in the middle of the platform, but a little more towards Battlefield's center. Another thing to keep in mind is Back Slash carries some of the horizontal velocity from your run. If running in for the strike, be sure to input the back slash sooner than you normally would. Using Shulk's head (which leans forward as he runs) for reference, the distance is as follows for each mode:
Run speeds not effected - 3/4 platform distance
Monado Speed - 1 platform distance
Monado Shield - Just slightly above 1/2... maybe 7/12. Do a moment before you hit 1/2.

Match-ups where in Battlefield may not be a good idea to pick:

 

[Linkmario00]

We have to remember that platforms in DL are a little higher than BF's so probably a Jump SH and a Speed FH won't reach them, so maybe BF can be a better choice for this.

 

[Masonomace]

We have to remember that platforms in DL are a little higher than BF's so probably a Jump SH and a Speed FH won't reach them, so maybe BF can be a better choice for this.

Sorry to bother asking, but do you happen to have DL & if so, may I ask to test it? Apologies in advance.

I just did a BF comparison test side-by-side of Jump Shulk Short Hopping & Speed Shulk Full Hopping simultaneously. Not only does Speed Shulk jump higher but he doesn't fall faster like Jump Shulk does which results in Jump Shulk landing on the platform quicker thanks to that.

Decisive Jump Shulk & Hyper Jump Shulk have much higher falling speed that they land even quicker than Jump Shulk, & they might not be able to land on the DL platform because of that.

 

[Linkmario00]

Ok I'm testing it right now and it seems that a Speed FH can do it but a Jump SH can't. Also we don't reach the top platform at all with Uptilt

 

[Masonomace]

If Dreamland is essentially a Battlefield with a wind blow then we could briefly talk about that & how it affects Shulk and his Monado Arts. My problem is that I didn't get the stage yet so I don't know of the researching with the Whispy Woods tree's wind effect. Although, from past experiences with windboxes / push-effect:

• Jump Arts, Speed Arts, & Buster Arts don't do anything notably different for Shulk alone, but the wind push effect would surely assist or hinder Shulk depending on the direction the wind is blowing (I.E. Jump Arts drifting with the wind pushing essentially makes Shulk ride the wind while jumping offstage for an edge-guard. Speed Arts running with the wind is UBER FAST or when running against & through the wind head-on is something I'm sure the Speed Arts are capable of as long as the Whispy Woods tree isn't Gust Bellows level of dumb.).
  
  
• Shield Arts & Smash Arts are the Arts that do change the effectiveness of a wind push effect in that Shield Arts reduce the push effect while Smash Arts increase the push effect. I suppose that goes with these Arts' nature of increasing / reducing several kinds of knockback via attributes.

So I messed around with DL today & have returned to report that the Arts do nothing for Shulk when he's standing there pushed away by the blowing wind. We still get a bit of a speed boost with Speed Arts or a nice jumpstart with Jump Arts. Nothing too big of a difference though.

The Whispy Woods tree was just a slight change of festery here & there. Though can still see the beauty of choosing this stage as a CP.