Wavedashing in Smash 4! (Kind of...)

[SuaveChaser]

Competitive Melee fans were big into the glitchy stupid momentum abuse, hence why they want it back. The rest of us want them out of our new game.

Well that makes the smash 4 community sound really great and inviting.

 

[Belgrim]

Hoping this gets patched lol.

 

[ryuu seika]

Well that makes the smash 4 community sound really great and inviting.

I'm overreacting and I know it. There are plenty of people who just want us to get along and I considered myself among their number until this came out and everyone started jumping on the "Ooh, we can ruin SSB4 like we did its predecessor!" bandwagon.

 

[ryuu seika]

Well that makes the smash 4 community sound really great and inviting.

I'm overreacting and I know it. There are plenty of people who just want us to get along and I considered myself among their number until this came out and everyone started jumping on the "Ooh, we can ruin SSB4 like we did its predecessor!" bandwagon.

Hoping this gets patched lol.

If it does we lose shielding while sliding as an approach option, along with many other low level useful techniques. The momentum carry is a basic part of this game.

 

[Altea77]

I sank months worth of hours into Melee, to the point where I could 4 stock every AI opponent on lightning mode with no difficulty at all. I was not just good at the game but as good as anyone could be without facing real opponents.
I go online and what's the first thing I hear? Learn to wavedash you scrub.
So don't try and tell me its optional because, if you try to act like you're a better player without such mechanics, even so much as once, the competitive community will jump on you and never let up. You want respect from fellow smash players, you have to suck it up and learn to play through the pain.

If you don't want to take the time to learn advanced techniques just because they are hard, don't try and get into the competitive scene. It's really as simple as that. You shouldn't get offended if people say you suck for not wavedashing. Just ignore them, because that's not what you want out of the game. Just find people you can play that don't use ATs. There are plenty of lower level tournaments out there.

This is a misconception. Difficulty of correct implementation and the thought that goes into knowing when that is are what make a mechanic good for the competitive scene, not input difficulty. L-cancelling was not good for the competitive scene, only the low landing lag that resulted was.

The inputs really aren't that difficult if you take the time to practice them. I mean I wouldn't mind if they were a little easier, but taking away the difficulty completely would make competitive play all mental with no technique, and you need a little of both for good competitive play.

 

[ryuu seika]

If you don't want to take the time to learn advanced techniques just because they are hard, don't try and get into the competitive scene. It's really as simple as that. You shouldn't get offended if people say you suck for not wavedashing. Just ignore them, because that's not what you want out of the game. Just find people you can play that don't use ATs. There are plenty of lower level tournaments out there.

It isn't about me not wanting to learn something hard, it's about me not wanting to learn something that completely distorts the way in which the game is played and should never have existed in the first place. It's like snaking in F-Zero. If I learnt it, there would be no point in me playing the game, so I simply don't learn it.

The inputs really aren't that difficult if you take the time to practice them. I mean I wouldn't mind if they were a little easier, but taking away the difficulty completely would make competitive play all mental with no technique, and you need a little of both for good competitive play.

Sure, they're not that difficult. Nor is home run contest. Doesn't mean I don't walk away with an inch long blister and no rubber on my control stick after ~10 minutes. And no, you really don't need physical difficulty. Not in a game that's specifically designed not to have the input barriers of other fighters, anyway.

 

[Altea77]

It isn't about me not wanting to learn something hard, it's about me not wanting to learn something that completely distorts the way in which the game is played and should never have existed in the first place. It's like snaking in F-Zero. If I learnt it, there would be no point in me playing the game, so I simply don't learn it.

Well now you are going back on what you said about the inputs being too hard, which was your main point against them. These techniques don't distort the game. L cancelling was an intended feature and was even in smash 64. Snaking in F-Zero was also intentional. Wavedashing wasn't intentional but it adds movement options and depth that increases level of play in a good way, without distorting the game, and doesn't even give a major advantage to those using it, like L-canceling does. Wave dashing is so small a feature in relation to winning that it can in no way distort a game like a speed technique in a racing game would when speed is the main feature to win. You can wavedash but still not be good, while in a racing game if you used a speed exploit, you would most likely win no matter what.

 

[ryuu seika]

Well now you are going back on what you said about the inputs being too hard, which was your main point against them. These techniques don't distort the game. L cancelling was an intended feature and was even in smash 64. Snaking in F-Zero was also intentional. Wavedashing wasn't intentional but it adds movement options and depth that increases level of play in a good way, without distorting the game, and doesn't even give a major advantage to those using it, like L-canceling does. Wave dashing is so small a feature in relation to winning that it can in no way distort a game like a speed technique in a racing game would when speed is the main feature to win. You can wavedash but still not be good, while in a racing game if you used a speed exploit, you would most likely win no matter what.

I believe what I initially said was that the inputs for wavedashing and perfect pivoting were unnecessarily complex and that the motions were overpowered when compared to other movement options that didn't allow for nearly the same level of quick coverage of short distances.
I am not going back on my initial point at all. Just because I can do something doesn't mean it's input requirements aren't a problem and just because I have a second reason why wavedashing is bad for the game doesn't mean my first is invalid.

L-Cancelling was indeed intended in smash 64 but not so much so for the players. Its inclusion as a player option was a last minute decision intended to make top level Mario feel more like he was outplaying you with his lagless aerials and less like he was cheating. Players proved that they could use it as well as the AI did so the technique failed to fulfil its intended purpose and should therefore have been removed in Melee, not just nerfed.
Snaking in F-Zero wasn't intentional. It was intentional that your acceleration stat would boost your speed when coming out of turns to balance it against the speed stat somewhat more but allowing players to abuse instant turns for quick momentum gain was never the goal.

If you look at what they do, both the wavedash and snaking are infact speed exploits based on cancelling a direction change into a momentum boost. Both were intended parts of their respective game engines, just with poorly anticipated consequences. The only real difference is that, in Smash, speed isn't everything. It is the ability to get in an attack and it is the ability to escape one but, with clever prediction, the Bowser can still theoretically win. it just doesn't happen unless he majorly outplays his opponent.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Can we all just agree having more technical options is a GOOD thing?

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Yes. A whole load of gamebreaking, controller breaking, thumb breaking possibilities.
It was crap like this that made me want to move on from Melee. Brawl sucked and Smash 4 was hardly what I'd hoped for but it was still a fairly good game and one I thought I could get good at happily. Now it's looking to have even worse physical barriers than its predecessor.

If you are throwing in the towel because of some dash cancelling tech, you probably shouldn't be playing Super Smash Bros. competitively. Hell, probably not any game competitively. Complaining just shows you're not willing to do what others will do to improve their ability to play. Techs are going to exist - we can't have a damn button for everything. That would be just as convoluted. This non-problem will never go away until neurotech is sophisticated enough to translate what we are thinking into complex action.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/1wu1ts/i_play_smash_with_my_right_hand_and_left_big_toe/
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/256w8q/so_theres_a_one_armed_smasher_at_this_tournament/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwGGVYJDc-0

^ Tell me how big of a wimp you feel like after.

Competitive Melee fans were big into the glitchy stupid momentum abuse, hence why they want it back. The rest of us want them out of our new game.

It's okay to not find something fun and thus not play it. It's not okay to claim a game as your own and then speak for a slim minority of ******* that are hopelessly fighting against any kind of input more complicated than a running up smash.

You've been on Smashboards for 4 1/2 years and 3,200 posts later you are still calling Melee tech "glitchy stupid momentum abuse". You are either stupid or trolling. I'll do you a favor and assume you are just trolling. If the admin had any sense, they would ban everyone propagating lies. Unfortunately **** like this will continue to over-complicate or derail every other remotely serious thread about tech discussion on this forum until the end of time.

 

[Deleted member]

This is an issue and it isn't just a Super Smash Bros. issue, but I really think it isn't healthy for discussion or the mind in-general to refer to someone who likes a specific game to be in a specific group. A game itself isn't a country club, there isn't a side and it really is preference. Individual preference at that.

I'm enjoying this game because of my own reasons just like everyone else is, that doesn't make anyone a "Smash 4" group, and to add to this, Melee is what I define personally as the definitive Super Smash Bros. game, but I'm not apart of a group in the reason why I like the game nor when I state opinions on either of the games. These are games for our enjoyment, let's not take it so personal that we resort to generalizations of people due to our frustrations with certain individuals we've talked to in the past and just understand just because someone feels or thinks a certain way they aren't attached to a group that doesn't exist.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'll have to practice this on the Wii U version. My 3DS stick is barely usable as is. My thumb keeps sliding off of it. This is still pretty cool, though~

 

[ryuu seika]

If you are throwing in the towel because of some dash cancelling tech, you probably shouldn't be playing Super Smash Bros. competitively. Hell, probably not any game competitively. Complaining just shows you're not willing to do what others will do to improve their ability to play. Techs are going to exist - we can't have a damn button for everything. That would be just as convoluted. This non-problem will never go away until neurotech is sophisticated enough to translate what we are thinking into complex action.

Dude, get your facts straight before you start assuming everyone's a noob. I swallowcide cancel, I IDA to DACUS, I DI, I angle my shield and a variety of other advanced manoeuvres. I have no issue with complicated or precise inputs. My issue is with unnecessarily complicated ones and game warping momentum from nothing physics abuses that don't improve gameplay in any way, yet are considered the be all and end all of any game they are in.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/1wu1ts/i_play_smash_with_my_right_hand_and_left_big_toe/
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/256w8q/so_theres_a_one_armed_smasher_at_this_tournament/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwGGVYJDc-0
^ Tell me how big of a wimp you feel like after.

Given that I've played through entire games one handed, not that much of one really. As said, I physically can do these things, I just don't believe it's right to expect players to do so without reason in the way that L-cancelling does or as a major form of motion like Melee players seem to think Wavedashing should be. If you check your own links, you'll see these people talking about how they have problems with the "technical" aspects. Why not cut down on them and give these players a better smashing experience?

It's okay to not find something fun and thus not play it. It's not okay to claim a game as your own and then speak for a slim minority of ****ies that are hopelessly fighting against any kind of input more complicated than a running up smash.

You've been on Smashboards for 4 1/2 years and 3,200 posts later you are still calling Melee tech "glitchy stupid momentum abuse". You are either stupid or trolling. I'll do you a favor and assume you are just trolling. If the admin had any sense, they would ban everyone propagating lies. Unfortunately **** like this will continue to over-complicate or derail every other remotely serious thread about tech discussion on this forum until the end of time.

The word "glitchy" was thrown into my post due to the context in which it was made. At that point in time, others were talking about how glitch and dumb it looked. It was a reference to that, not to any belief that it were a glitch. It is not.
The word "stupid" is my opinion on the technique and those who use it, nothing more.
The term "momentum abuse", however, is entirely non-subjective and accurate. Wavedashing and "perfect pivoting" are both ways in witch to abuse the mechanics of the physics engine such as to create momentum from nothing.

And as for your accusation that I'm derailing a serious topic about tech discussion, I refer you back to the OP, wherein a complete and utter newbie with a ridiculous username* linked some video he found on youtube, called it wavedashing even though it's not and proceeded to ask our opinions on it.
Even if that were the start of a serious topic, which it really doesn't sound like, he asked us for our opinions. What the hell do you think I'm doing if not fulfilling his request? And if I am doing what the OP asked, how can that possibly be considered derailment?

I'm enjoying this game because of my own reasons just like everyone else is, that doesn't make anyone a "Smash 4" group, and to add to this, Melee is what I define personally as the definitive Super Smash Bros. game, but I'm not apart of a group in the reason why I like the game nor when I state opinions on either of the games. These are games for our enjoyment, let's not take it so personal that we resort to generalizations of people due to our frustrations with certain individuals we've talked to in the past and just understand just because someone feels or thinks a certain way they aren't attached to a group that doesn't exist.

I'm sorry I overgeneralized but I really do feel like I'm alone on this site. Everyone who agrees with my opinions on L-cancelling and Wavedashing seems to be someone who prefers Brawl to Melee. So far as I can tell, I am the only member who loved everything about Melee except for these two things (and maybe the stupidity of the swallowcide cancel) and thus my experience does make it all too easy to group people.

*I mean no offense regarding your name, OP, it is ridiculous in a good way. I like it.

 

[Roko Jono]

In the end, if it stays in the game its there. If it goes away somehow, its gone. With (supposedly unlikely) patches things come and go. Play the game. If it gets banned at TO's (ahaha... ya...), its banned. Use it, don't use it, its up to you, play the game. You can complain about a game all you want if that's what you love to do, but people will play and some people will stop playing.

People still play Melee. Friends might get together over their love of MKDS snaking and snake away. Developers ruin franchises all the time. There are rock paper scissors tournaments. There could be a reality show about a raccoon. It happens, it's life, move on, but don't get bitter guys.

I admit I used to be adamant about Brawl, but you know that's just what happened and I won't knock you for playing it. If that was your favorite game of all time, which we all have different tastes, so be it.

I like the tech, and am I going to use it? Yes. Will I use it all the time? Probably not. You can PP (haha peepee...) an unsafe move and punish but shielding can pretty much give you the same result if not be a little safer at times.

 

[lijero13ss]

So back to perfect pivoting...lol

I for one, definitely will try to learn this! xD

 

[Khao]

I really don't see why this technique specifically is such a big deal.

It's literally running and quickly turning around, it's almost no different to doing a pivot cancel (or just pivoting? I always get names mixed up), which is a technique that was knowingly added into the game and even referenced in the in-game tips.

It's not even difficult, you just need to move the stick quickly.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

I'm interested to see where this goes if high-level players start incorporating it into the metagame. The amount of movement and attack options it opens for many characters looks beneficial.

Perfect pivoting looks even easier to perform than a wavedash. But even then, wavedashing should be no harder to grasp than learning to do a Hadouken, maybe with a better sense of air-ground timing.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

I'm interested to see where this goes if high-level players start incorporating it into the metagame. The amount of movement and attack options it opens for many characters looks beneficial

The spacing option is a great boon, but it's really just going to compound the issue of the defender having the advantage.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

If it means anything to introduce to the discussion, Hungrybox has gone on record he can't actually do some of the most advanced stuff the other top Melee players can do because his fingers are not fast enough to keep up with it.

 

[kyxsune]

If it means anything to introduce to the discussion, Hungrybox has gone on record he can't actually do some of the most advanced stuff the other top Melee players can do because his fingers are not fast enough to keep up with it.

Well thats encouraging, his reading skills must be amazing then. Maybe I'm focusing on the wrong aspect of the game...

 

[Roukiske]

If it means anything to introduce to the discussion, Hungrybox has gone on record he can't actually do some of the most advanced stuff the other top Melee players can do because his fingers are not fast enough to keep up with it.

What an excellent point! To anyone worried about high tech skill:

I mained Fox in melee because of combo videos I saw (I didn't know he was top of the top at the time). Its a hard character to start with. Later, I played having a pocket Jiggs and oh man, good example of a character who doesn't need wavedash, wavelanding, *constant* L-canceling, or moonwalking. A friend of mine who didn't have much tech skill mained her and is one of our best players. He can now play characters like Falco after some time, but the point is, some characters don't need the tech to be good. Let's just see how the tech develops overtime.

Playing Jiggs feels more relaxing too, don't gotta press a million buttons per round.

 

[HylianDuelist]

Guys, I hate the Wavedashing thing, and I guess I should be punished for that. Seriously, We can't all be "Pros," So telling to go play at the noob tourneys is flat out mean. I agree Melee is better than Brawl, but these darn Tech things make it hard to enjoy the game.

 

[Altea77]

We can't all be "Pros," So telling to go play at the noob tourneys is flat out mean.

If you don't want to take the time to get the best at the game, and be a "pro", then why would you expect to be able to play at the highest level of tourneys? That's not mean at all, it's just common sense. You don't want to be a noob, but you also don't want to put the time in to not be a noob? Well tough, that's life. (For the record, I don't think casuals are noobs. I'm just referring to it because you said it.) You have to work for things, otherwise you'll stay at the lower levels. Not everything can be super easy.

 

[HylianDuelist]

If you don't want to take the time to get the best at the game, and be a "pro", then why would you expect to be able to play at the highest level of tourneys? That's not mean at all, it's just common sense. You don't want to be a noob, but you also don't want to put the time in to not be a noob? Well tough, that's life. (For the record, I don't think casuals are noobs. I'm just referring to it because you said it.) You have to work for things, otherwise you'll stay at the lower levels. Not everything can be super easy.

I never said anything about not wanting to spend the time getting better, I simply would prefer to use the intended mechanics, not some Physics quirk that breaks the game. I don't see why you call me lazy for not wanting to cheat. I don't like Wavedashing, I said it.

 

[Roukiske]

I never said anything about not wanting to spend the time getting better, I simply would prefer to use the intended mechanics, not some Physics quirk that breaks the game. I don't see why you call me lazy for not wanting to cheat. I don't like Wavedashing, I said it.

Can we try to refrain from using the word "cheat"? We can call it cheating once its something that is banned by the majority of the community. I think what's interesting about this piece of tech is that you don't need it to win, especially on some characters. Personally I don't know if Ganon will use this all that well (only time will tell), so I probably won't be changing up my gameplay with him.

 

[Vaughn Spanks]

It seems like a legit tactic to use in-game, but it may cause problems for many players. They'll just have to adapt and learn how to punish it. That's IF you can punish it, and I'm sure you can.

Not going to lie, I will definitely be learning and exploiting this technique to the best of my abilities. I will not be touched!

 

[Altea77]

I never said anything about not wanting to spend the time getting better, I simply would prefer to use the intended mechanics, not some Physics quirk that breaks the game. I don't see why you call me lazy for not wanting to cheat. I don't like Wavedashing, I said it.

You see, it really doesn't matter whether it was intended or not. It's there, and it increases depth of competitive play. If you are serious about playing competitively, you would understand why it's a good thing. If you're not serious about playing competitively, then it should not be an issue for you.

 

[Nay]

A Yes. A whole load of gamebreaking.

I don't think perfect pivoting is gamebreaking, it's not even close to that, it will only increase the tech skill level and make the game more competitive, you can still play the game without using it. You said it's overpower but perfect pivoting is kinda hard to execute, so people probably won't use it as much as they use wavedashing in Melee.

thumb breaking possibilities

Really...

these darn Tech things make it hard to enjoy the game.

Wavedashing opens so many options once you learn it, I don't think it makes the game less enjoyable.

 

[S3R4PH]

This technique seems more detrimental for Rosalina than anything since she loses some attack distance with Luma, which sucks because I want awesome 1337 movement options too. I might just incorporate this strictly for spacing purposes, grabs, and ftilts.

 

[PCHU]

This technique seems more detrimental for Rosalina than anything since she loses some attack distance with Luma, which sucks because I want awesome 1337 movement options too. I might just incorporate this strictly for spacing purposes, grabs, and ftilts.

I've tried to use it a little with Dedede for pseudo OoS dsmash purposes, but I don't have the GC adapter, so I use the normal pad which tends to mess up my inputs for whatever reason (maybe it's how I'm holding it; I dunno).
It's often more trouble than it's worth, even when I get the input right.

I think the tech is useful, but for anyone out there who can't pull it off, don't get discouraged -- it's more than possible to beat people who use it without using it yourself; so long as you're decent enough with the basics and have a versatile playstyle, you'll be fine without it.
It's like item dashing in Brawl or moonwalking in Melee.

 

[ryuu seika]

You said it's overpower but perfect pivoting is kinda hard to execute, so people probably won't use it as much as they use wavedashing in Melee.

Execution barriers are not a means of balance.

Really...

As I've said before, I CAN wavedash, I just don't. My main complaint is based on principle but, as I have tried to explain on multiple occassions, such repeated thumbjerk motions can actually result in physical harm. For me, this manifests as massive blisters that mean I have to wear gloves when wavedashing or playing home run contest but I am certain M2K's hand problems have been worsened by years of Melee too.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Execution barriers are not a means of balance.

Yes they are. It makes the technique hard to pull off and impossible to dominate with. That's what make Dancing Blade so balanced in Melee. It was a very good technique, but it was awfully hard to pull off. Too hard to make it extremely powerful. Brawl and 4 removed the technical barriers and made them way more powerful than they should be. In reality, they're now more powerful than before and was not nerfed enough to justify the super easy inputs. But Brawl was teribly balanced anyway, so this isn't surprising.

As I've said before, I CAN wavedash, I just don't. My main complaint is based on principle but, as I have tried to explain on multiple occassions, such repeated thumbjerk motions can actually result in physical harm. For me, this manifests as massive blisters that mean I have to wear gloves when wavedashing or playing home run contest but I am certain M2K's hand problems have been worsened by years of Melee too.

Then don't do it. You don't need it to win whatsoever. You need actual skill instead. Techs are options, not forced. This isn't anywhere near similar to actual broken stuff stuff that is required to win like Snaking in Mario Kart(people need to stop making this comparison. It's completely false and one of the worst you can make. Nothing but Shielding is anywhere halfway forced in Smash for techs. You could argue Air Dodge and Sidestepping, as well as Rolling are the only required ones period. At best. Everything else is just a bonus at best). L-Cancelling is actually sometimes way more important, if not way more important overall. Many characters have terrible wavedashing and thus, are useless with it, so it's not an issue or worth dealing with. L-Cancelling benefits everyone(and isn't even hard to pull off or Master, it just takes actual practice. Something you need to win in any competitive game. Yes, it's arbitrary to a degree. But only because the risk is horrible and that's what makes it unbalanced. Not because it requires actual skill to use).

Requiring more skill does not actually make something unbalanced. It's how powerful it is and if the risk for failing is immensely brutal. And it has to be so immensely brutal that it constantly costs you games. That's what Snaking is. Not going for L-Cancelling is a perfectly fine option and if you're actually good at the game, you still have a very high chance of winning. I almost never L-Cancel or Wavedash in Melee. I do just fine because I actually concentrate on beating the opponent, not overusing techs that may not even help in the first place. Techs don't win games, skill and that alone does. Techs are bonuses save maybe 4 overall since Melee. Smash 64 had two techs you needed, Rolling and Shielding. That's it. And if you don't want to count Shielding as a tech? Fine. Rest do.

In other words, don't bother using tools that hurt your hands. Use what you otherwise easily do and practice to fight your opponents properly. You're going to win way more than people throwing out techs left and right. Because you have more skill than they do. And the principles mean jack. Nobody is cheating in any way. If they don't hurt your hand, there's no reason to not use them unless they actual don't benefit you. That's the only reason they get used. They're a beneficial technique that improves your options. You want to cheat? Use glitches that actually freeze the game, or Soul breaker. Or heck, the Flat Kirby glitch. These are bad for the game.

You do know that L-Cancelling was added in 64 and explained by Sakurai himself, right? It was meant to be used. Outright. Wavedashing was an exploit(not a cheat or a glitch) of the physics engine that Sakurai purposely left in. He did not intend it to be used that way, but it was also not built around the characters properly, so instead of making it like that, he decided to omit it. But he also outright said that he hated the mentality of people in Casual and Competitive play due to the bigger split in Melee(basically, he can't stand elitism) and made Brawl only go one direction to try and eliminate it. It failed, of course.

 

[HylianDuelist]

You see this thing puts people like me at a disadvantage. I cannot button mash for the life of me, so if this technique overtakes competitive play like it did in Melee, than I'm worried people like me will be at a disadvantage because of our inability to button mash.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You see this thing puts people like me at a disadvantage. I cannot button mash for the life of me, so if this technique overtakes competitive play like it did in Melee, than I'm worried people like me will be at a disadvantage because of our inability to button mash.

You were already at a disadvantage because of your depending on button mashing instead of actually trying to be better by practicing your timing and knowing your character. Wavedashing didn't matter. This will not either. Button Mashing will not ever win you games at competitive tourneys. Actual practice, skill, timing, and knowing your character will. This tech is irrelevant in comparison.

The game is way too young to have a proper tier list. So that won't really matter either.

 

[Jebus244]

Execution barriers are not a means of balance.



As I've said before, I CAN wavedash, I just don't. My main complaint is based on principle but, as I have tried to explain on multiple occassions, such repeated thumbjerk motions can actually result in physical harm. For me, this manifests as massive blisters that mean I have to wear gloves when wavedashing or playing home run contest but I am certain M2K's hand problems have been worsened by years of Melee too.

After reading your comments in this thread, I can tell you, your competitive philosophy is flawed.

Play to win. The end. Play melee against someone who wavedashes and get beat, eventually you will have to admit that using it as a positioning/spacing technique is clearly superior to not using it. Is the other player better for using it? Yes. Because he wins. The end.

Read about "scrub" mentality. Check this article out, at some point he even talks about game bugs that change the game ===> http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win

 

[ryuu seika]

Yes they are. It makes the technique hard to pull off and impossible to dominate with. That's what make Dancing Blade so balanced in Melee. It was a very good technique, but it was awfully hard to pull off. Too hard to make it extremely powerful. Brawl and 4 removed the technical barriers and made them way more powerful than they should be. In reality, they're now more powerful than before and was not nerfed enough to justify the super easy inputs.

So what you're saying is that the move was always OP but people just weren't well versed/practiced enough in the timings or didn't have enough dexterity to abuse it fully? That still doesn't make the move balanced.

Techs are options, not forced.

No, you're just laughed at by every Melee player on here if you don't use those "options". You don't have to do it.

This isn't anywhere near similar to actual broken stuff stuff that is required to win like Snaking in Mario Kart(people need to stop making this comparison. It's completely false and one of the worst you can make.

Actually, the two exploits are nearly identical and perfect pivoting is even more similar to Snaking. The difference is the rest of the game. In Mario Kart, speed is everything. Not so in Smash. Speed makes a big difference, letting you be where you need to sooner and with more time to punish or less chance of being punished but I agree, it isn't everything. It's not necessary to win. Atleast, not if you already have more of it than Bowser does.

Many characters have terrible wavedashing and thus, are useless with it, so it's not an issue or worth dealing with.

That makes it more of an issue worth dealing with. Anything that provides extra options for some of the cast and nthing of worth to the rest is not going to help balance.

Requiring more skill does not actually make something unbalanced.

Did I ever suggest it did?

You do know that L-Cancelling was added in 64 and explained by Sakurai himself, right? It was meant to be used. Outright.

I was not aware that he had explained it but I was entirely aware that it was intentionally added to the game. Its main reason for existence was so that the highest level AI fights could be seen as outplaying the player, who could never possibly match its perfect inputs, instead of just cheating by having no landing lag. Skip forward a bit and people are matching those inputs. L-Cancelling becomes common place.
From a purely human vs human standpoint, it makes no sense as a mechanic.

Wavedashing was an exploit(not a cheat or a glitch) of the physics engine that Sakurai purposely left in. He did not intend it to be used that way, but it was also not built around the characters properly, so instead of making it like that, he decided to omit it. But he also outright said that he hated the mentality of people in Casual and Competitive play due to the bigger split in Melee(basically, he can't stand elitism) and made Brawl only go one direction to try and eliminate it. It failed, of course.

The failings of Brawl do not in any way justify or condemn anything so I don't see what your point is here.

And the principles mean jack. Nobody is cheating in any way. ... You want to cheat? Use glitches that actually freeze the game, or Soul breaker. Or heck, the Flat Kirby glitch. These are bad for the game.

Just FYI, a single use of the Pancake Kirby glitch is infact majorly detrimental to the player using it as Kirby loses both range and jump height, while losing only a little in the way of hurtbox size.
Also, Master Hand is/was actually considered a legal character.

Play melee against someone who wavedashes...

Find me an opponent then. I'm a little out of practice but I'm not one to shy away from a challenge.

Read about "scrub" mentality. Check this article out, at some point he even talks about game bugs that change the game ===> http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win

Reading it and disliking it already. For example:

why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Are they such a poor player that they can't counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't you be a fool for not using that move?

In the last sentence, if the move is that uncounterable then whoever made the game was the fool for leaving it in. Ridiculously broken moves like the hypothetical in question are a design flaw. Maybe you should be using them if they're there, that's certainly a valid opinion. What I take issue with regarding the Melee crowd is the mentality that removing anything makes the game inherently worse.
Remove wavedashing: this game sucks.
Remove L-cancelling: this game sucks.
Remove chain grabs: this game sucks.
In the second case, a select few are open minded enough to accept that a hypothetical game with L-cancelled levels of landing lag but no actual L-cancelling might be ok. Many still don't though.
Design flaws should not be kept from iteration to iteration just to please the fans if they're not actually good for the game.

AND:

One time I played a scrub who was pretty good at many aspects of Street Fighter, but he cried cheap as I beat him with "no skill moves" while he performed many difficult dragon punches. He cried cheap when I threw him 5 times in a row asking, "is that all you know how to do? throw?" I told him, "Play to win, not to do 'difficult moves.'" He would never reach the next level of play without shedding those extra rules in his head.

Shows a lack of understanding on both players' parts because, while the player in question's mentality isn't right for the game, he is actively trying to improve by expanding his move pool to include command moves such as the shoryuken. The author, rather than encouraging this and trying to steer him in the right direction, is brushing the guy off and considering him a lost cause. If you have to, reverse the accusation of lacking knowledge by asking the guy why he can't counter throws but don't be the fool who convinces him that command moves are worthless when all he really needs is to learn to get them out quicker and when to use them.

 

[Jebus244]

Find me an opponent then. I'm a little out of practice but I'm not one to shy away from a challenge.

In the last sentence, if the move is that uncounterable then whoever made the game was the fool for leaving it in. Ridiculously broken moves like the hypothetical in question are a design flaw. Maybe you should be using them if they're there, that's certainly a valid opinion. What I take issue with regarding the Melee crowd is the mentality that removing anything makes the game inherently worse.
Remove wavedashing: this game sucks.
Remove L-cancelling: this game sucks.
Remove chain grabs: this game sucks.
In the second case, a select few are open minded enough to accept that a hypothetical game with L-cancelled levels of landing lag but no actual L-cancelling might be ok. Many still don't though.
Design flaws should not be kept from iteration to iteration just to please the fans if they're not actually good for the game.

My statement about playing someone who wavedashes was rhetorical, not literal. I'm simpy saying that two players of arguably equal skill, and for argument's sake, play the same character, if one wavedashes and the other doesn't, if the player knows what he's doing, wavedashing will win out. It's observably an objective fact that it adds depth, however whether it makes the game better is an opinion one could hold, though if you're truly competitive I don't understand why you would hold it. In every competitive scene, glitches are used, and if you, for whatever ridiculous reason, self impose a set of rules where you are opposed to use them to your advantage, you're a scrub. The argument shouldn't be "it's a glitch therefore it should be banned", the argument should be whether it breaks the game. If not, there is no problem.

You stopped reading too soon. He addresses the point you bring up. He was a street fighter pro and has dealt with and argued against the sort of thing you're talking about for a while.

And yes, I'm opposed to smooth lander. It's a gimmick, adds no depth, and misses the point completely. The skill involved in learning techniques is what separates pros from casuals, and it's essential to competitive play. It allows players to rise above others based on prowess. Smooth lander simply makes the game faster, in that case just make the game faster. The achievement of pulling off the technique is what should be rewarded, there is no achievement in the application of a custom.

EDIT: removing a repeated point.

 

[ryuu seika]

My statement about playing someone who wavedashes was rhetorical, not literal. I'm simpy saying that two players of arguably equal skill, and for argument's sake, play the same character, if one wavedashes and the other doesn't, if the player knows what he's doing, wavedashing will win out.

Duh to both counts. I have never had the chance to try and learn to make up for my handicap in the game so my skill would probably actually be worse anyway. My point was never that wavedashing didn't aid the player using it. Why would I ever suggest such a thing?

In my opinion, the depth it adds makes the game better competitively, I don't know how you could possibly argue against that. It's observably an objective fact that it adds depth, however whether it makes the game better is an opinion one could hold, though if you're truly competitive I don't understand why you would hold it.

Yes, it adds depth in some ways but consider this. Your movement options are a limiting factor, not just to where you can be but also where you want to be. At all times, you have to consider how your positioning and movement affect your potential for action and counter action. By boosting your movement potential, you then increase the number of options out of any one situation, decreasing the importance of spacing and the frequency with which the situational uses of moves will matter.
Why expend effort drawing your opponent towards the side of the stage when you can wavedash across it and edge hog their recovery anyway?

You stopped reading too soon. He addresses the point you bring up. He was a street fighter pro and has dealt and argued against the sort of thing you're talking about for a while.

If you read what I wrote, you'd know that I didn't stop reading at the time of posting, I have since read the rest, seen his response, been sidetracked and completely forgotten it. Now I can't find it again. Mind quoting the specific point?

And yes, I'm opposed to smooth lander. It's a gimmick, adds no depth, and misses the point completely. The skill involved in learning techniques is what separates pros from casuals, and it's essential to competitive play. It allows players to rise above others based on prowess. Smooth lander simply makes the game faster, in that case just make the game faster. The achievement of pulling off the technique is what should be rewarded, there is no achievement in the application of a custom.

Let's say that, hypothetically, the attack button was rigged to activate the pause button but not vice versa. Would you consider that an improvement to the controller/game? What you're saying is effectively the same, that an arbitrary button press for the sake of an arbitrary button press is somehow a positive factor.
I'm not saying that I won't use L-cancelling. It's in the game and there is no reason not to use it. That, however, is precisely the problem. Assuming a high enough level of player skill, they will do it every time, meaning that it adds absolutely nothing to the gameplay over having it be automated. This means that the mechanic serves as nothing more than an entry barrier, something that takes time to learn and puts off new players. Its N64 inclusion was somewhat logical but ill thought through and its return in Melee was stupid from a design standpoint.

 

[Jebus244]

Yes, it adds depth in some ways but consider this. Your movement options are a limiting factor, not just to where you can be but also where you want to be. At all times, you have to consider how your positioning and movement affect your potential for action and counter action. By boosting your movement potential, you then increase the number of options out of any one situation, decreasing the importance of spacing and the frequency with which the situational uses of moves will matter.
Why expend effort drawing your opponent towards the side of the stage when you can wavedash across it and edge hog their recovery anyway?

So adding more options reduces options? I don't understand what you're getting at here. It certainly doesn't decrease the importance of spacing. While it may decrease the frequency of certain situations, it creates more circumstances overall.

If you read what I wrote, you'd know that I didn't stop reading at the time of posting, I have since read the rest, seen his response, been sidetracked and completely forgotten it. Now I can't find it again. Mind quoting the specific point?

You were saying it's a flaw in design to leave a move that's uncounterable in the final game. He was saying a move may be so difficult to counter it seems unfair, but there is very often found a way to counter it. New things are discovered and then after a while, a layered metagame is created. Either way, this doesn't apply to wavedashing since every character can do it

Let's say that, hypothetically, the attack button was rigged to activate the pause button but not vice versa. Would you consider that an improvement to the controller/game? What you're saying is effectively the same, that an arbitrary button press for the sake of an arbitrary button press is somehow a positive factor.
I'm not saying that I won't use L-cancelling. It's in the game and there is no reason not to use it. That, however, is precisely the problem. Assuming a high enough level of player skill, they will do it every time, meaning that it adds absolutely nothing to the gameplay over having it be automated. This means that the mechanic serves as nothing more than an entry barrier, something that takes time to learn and puts off new players. Its N64 inclusion was somewhat logical but ill thought through and its return in Melee was stupid from a design standpoint.

Ok, now you've lost me. I'm not saying anything close to your hypothetical example. Using a glitch to your advantage is far from arbitrary. The skill barrier is the point. If it turns new players away, so be it, but if a new player wants to compete, REALLY wants to, they will learn.

 

[HylianDuelist]

If it turns new players away, so be it, but if a new player wants to compete, REALLY wants to, they will learn.

You see this here is the problem. You say make it seem like you think Old Players are more important than new players. I could be interpreting this wrong, but thats what I see. If Joe just got Sm4sh, and he wanted to be competitive, but he has a problem with precision, how would it make him feel to know he can't be competitive because of his traits from birth? It hurts, it really does. I would prefer to use skill over some quirk or obscure mechanic. I don't consider Wavedashing skill at Smash, I consider it an ability you posses.