Wavedashing in Smash 4! (Kind of...)

[ryuu seika]

You were saying it's a flaw in design to leave a move that's uncounterable in the final game. He was saying a move may be so difficult to counter it seems unfair, but there is very often found a way to counter it. New things are discovered and then after a while, a layered metagame is created. Either way, this doesn't apply to wavedashing since every character can do it.

In that case, I stand by what I said. If it's ridiculously uncounterable, that's a problem that should not have been left in the game. If it just appears so at first, then it's not. In either case, the move can fairly be considered "cheap" up until the point at which its counter gets discovered. The problem only arises when people address "cheapness" in the wrong way and use it as an excuse not to face their problems. The "cheaper" something is, the more you need to face it so that you can learn to beat it.
You are right in asserting that this doesn't apply to wavedashing but your reasoning as to why is unsound.
Take the CC example in the article. These moves, while doable by anybody, take a 3rd of one's healthbar and cannot be stopped by conventional methods. That is anything but fair. The only thing that keeps that in check, so far as I could see, is that it counters itself, meaning that the one who suffers from its use is the one who uses it first, prohibiting usage in the first place.

Ok, now you've lost me. I'm not saying anything close to your hypothetical example. Using a glitch to your advantage is far from arbitrary. The skill barrier is the point. If it turns new players away, so be it, but if a new player wants to compete, REALLY wants to, they will learn.

You were talking about how L-cancelling added depth that smooth lander equipment missed. I was rebutting that because the only difference is an arbitrary button press.
Wavedashing is a completely separate subject and again, I disagree. There is no need for a physical skill barrier when an implementation one will suffice.

I don't consider Wavedashing skill at Smash, I consider it an ability you posses.

Ability to perform a wavedash is a skill and so is ability to use it correctly. The two are not linked and the skill requirement for the first ability can, as you suggest, be external altered by physical factors. Personally, I see only the latter of the two ability requirements as a positive.

 

[HylianDuelist]

Ability to perform a wavedash is a skill and so is ability to use it correctly. The two are not linked and the skill requirement for the first ability can, as you suggest, be external altered by physical factors. Personally, I see only the latter of the two ability requirements as a positive.

Lol, I should have clarified that better. I meant its not representative of your skill at Smash at general. I do think it is an individual skill, just not part of the big picture. I know a lot of people use this well, but its hard for me to call an unintended mechanic part of your ultimate skill at the game

 

[Jebus244]

You see this here is the problem. You say make it seem like you think Old Players are more important than new players. I could be interpreting this wrong, but thats what I see. If Joe just got Sm4sh, and he wanted to be competitive, but he has a problem with precision, how would it make him feel to know he can't be competitive because of his traits from birth? It hurts, it really does. I would prefer to use skill over some quirk or obscure mechanic. I don't consider Wavedashing skill at Smash, I consider it an ability you posses.

I want to say you're trolling but... Precision takes skill. If he can play the rest of the game well enough to beat people, then surely he could learn wavedashing. If you're suggesting a player that can beat competent human opponents can't learn wavedashing then... I don't know, I would say he hasn't taken the time to learn it and its uses. In every game there is something called a skill ceiling. It's the point that players reach that typically pros play at. When you remove advanced techniques from a game you lower that ceiling, giving scrubs the illusion of playing well when they beat what one would call a pro, when in reality, a game with a low skill ceiling relies more on chance than on skill. So even if a scrub beats a pro, you couldn't say he was better when he just had good luck. Of course a game like that wouldn't really have pros since it wouldn't be considered competitive. If games like that were considered competitive, then I'm a pro at go fish, that's for damn sure.

It's important for competitive games to have high skill ceilings. I don't feel bad for poor Joe, he just can't hack it.

In that case, I stand by what I said. If it's ridiculously uncounterable, that's a problem that should not have been left in the game. If it just appears so at first, then it's not. In either case, the move can fairly be considered "cheap" up until the point at which its counter gets discovered. The problem only arises when people address "cheapness" in the wrong way and use it as an excuse not to face their problems. The "cheaper" something is, the more you need to face it so that you can learn to beat it.

Addressing "cheapness" in the wrong way seemed to be what you were doing, but I disagree with the term "cheap", that's your inner scrub fighting your rational competitive side. Let the scrub go and play to win! When you knee cap someone in a footrace, that's cheap, but when you use the tools provided, whether the tools were intentional or not, as long as everyone has access to them or can work against them, that's fair play.

You are right in asserting that this doesn't apply to wavedashing but your reasoning as to why is unsound.

No it isn't. That part of the article was talking about aspects of a game only usable by certain characters. A character performs a move that is found to be strong, why not use it to win? Down the road its easily countered, then the counter too is countered. Soon there is a metagame surrounding the really strong move only the really strong move is no longer performed because you have to fight through a layer of counters, which in turn are only used because of the strong move.

Wavedashing is accessible by every character, it cannot be countered, it just offers a smoother movement into attacks. It allows you to perform nearly every move out of fast movement on the stage, where as only certain moves can be used out of a dash. It does make move of certain characters more dangerous, but you then need to counter that move, not the wavedash.

You were talking about how L-cancelling added depth that smooth lander equipment missed. I was rebutting that because the only difference is an arbitrary button press.
Wavedashing is a completely separate subject and again, I disagree. There is no need for a physical skill barrier when an implementation one will suffice.

Precise playing should be rewarded, and if that means perfect repetition, then so be it. Of course a pro will do it every time, that's the point in practice. Every competitive game/sport has this attribute. There is something that needs to be done over and over, and if you're really good you will do it as close to perfect every time. I don't know why I needed to explain that.

 

[HylianDuelist]

Precise playing should be rewarded, and if that means perfect repetition, then so be it. Of course a pro will do it every time, that's the point in practice. Every competitive game/sport has this attribute. There is something that needs to be done over and over, and if you're really good you will do it as close to perfect every time. I don't know why I needed to explain that.

I agree, you should be awarded for precise playing. Winning is a good reward for me, but theres a catch. Just because you have this skill doesn't mean you are better than those who don't

 

[ryuu seika]

Screw it, if you honestly believe the game is better off with L-cancelling than low landing lag then you're not worth talking to. I tried to take your arguments seriously but that's a step too far.

 

[Jebus244]

I agree, you should be awarded for precise playing. Winning is a good reward for me, but theres a catch. Just because you have this skill doesn't mean you are better than those who don't

Yes it does. Why wouldn't it? That's like saying dribbling the ball well in basketball doesn't make you better than those who don't dribble well.

Screw it, if you honestly believe the game is better off with L-cancelling than low landing lag then you're not worth talking to. I tried to take your arguments seriously but that's a step too far.

It is better off competitively to have certain aspects of a game that raise the skill ceiling.

 

[HylianDuelist]

Yes it does. Why wouldn't it? That's like saying dribbling the ball well in basketball doesn't make you better than those who don't dribble well.

There is a difference between an essential mechanic and a tiny quirk. Dribbling is the equivalent of attacking, not wave dashing. If you are better at essential skills than someone else, thats when you are better than them. Wavedashing does not dictate your overall skill, its just a trick to use

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

So what you're saying is that the move was always OP but people just weren't well versed/practiced enough in the timings or didn't have enough dexterity to abuse it fully? That still doesn't make the move balanced.

If it's difficult to do an OP move, the barrier prevents it from being abusable whatsoever. Nobody can abuse it to any degree in Melee because it's that damn difficult.

No, you're just laughed at by every Melee player on here if you don't use those "options". You don't have to do it.

Do I look like I'm laughing here? I play Melee and am not laughing at anyone who chooses different ways to play. I infact encourage you to find what works best for you. Don't paint people with such a broad brush. You'll find your generalizations aren't even remotely true. And I'm pretty competitive when it comes to playing Melee specifically too.

Actually, the two exploits are nearly identical and perfect pivoting is even more similar to Snaking. The difference is the rest of the game. In Mario Kart, speed is everything. Not so in Smash. Speed makes a big difference, letting you be where you need to sooner and with more time to punish or less chance of being punished but I agree, it isn't everything. It's not necessary to win. Atleast, not if you already have more of it than Bowser does.

No, if they were anywhere close to Snaking, they'd win you the game by being used alone. That's not even remotely true in any way. Snaking specifically is needed to win at Mario Kart because it's built around speed. This doesn't work for Smash because approaching is only one way to play. It's very easy to play defensively while not concentrating as much on approaching. It depends the character entirely. Mario Kart does not work in any similar way. They were always bad comparisons. Doing similar inputs doesn't matter when they way they work is vastly different. As well as how they actually impact the game. Being able to get up closer is nice. But unless you can actually get a hit in, it means jack in a real game.

That makes it more of an issue worth dealing with. Anything that provides extra options for some of the cast and nothing of worth to the rest is not going to help balance.

I never said otherwise. I infact agree. Howwever, that's an issue with Wavedashing not being implemented towards the entire cast and instead left as it was. It has nothing to do with it existing. It was not tested or implemented properly after its discovery. If it's done that way, it ceases to be unbalanced. Likewise, L-Cancelling proves equal stuff to the entire cast. Auto-Cancelling does not, as it's only for certain moves that the developers decide, meaning many characters have far less of an advantage than others. It's actually worse by design. Now, if it was to affect all aerial moves equally or make sure each one gets a proper amount of lag removed to try and balance out the characters, this would be fine. Wavedashing was unintentional when it came up for the developers. So it not being balanced out can be justified in that they didn't intend to increase it and has no idea it would cause such a powerful impact on the game, which only alllwed it to evolve further. They had no control here. They had full control of Auto-Canelling and yet made it intentionally bad for some. L-Cancelling was balanced to work well for all. That's actually the only thing it could have in common with Snaking. Using it helps your game. Not using it does not. Regardless of who you choose. Wavedasing fails to compare to Snaking because it's not good for all characters to use. That's where the comparison falls flat.

Did I ever suggest it did?

I never said you did. That's my premise.

I was not aware that he had explained it but I was entirely aware that it was intentionally added to the game. Its main reason for existence was so that the highest level AI fights could be seen as outplaying the player, who could never possibly match its perfect inputs, instead of just cheating by having no landing lag. Skip forward a bit and people are matching those inputs. L-Cancelling becomes common place.
From a purely human vs human standpoint, it makes no sense as a mechanic.

It makes perfect sense. You needed to earn your ability to move faster. You had to show skill to win overall. It had nothing to do with the AI either. Not sure where you got this idea. He outright made it for the players as an option to use. Again, there is no cheating. Cheating actually requires you to have a code on or a massive amount of inputs to get a severe advantage. Landing Lag's advantage is nowhere near significant as snaking is in comparison. It's apples to oranges.

The failings of Brawl do not in any way justify or condemn anything so I don't see what your point is here.

It wasn't that Brawl in itself failed. What I mean is that it failed to remotely brings the competitive and casual players together. That was the reason for making Brawl less competitive. That in itself didn't actually help. The idea was great, but the execution was lacking. I definitely worded that a bit too vaguely, I admit.

Just FYI, a single use of the Pancake Kirby glitch is infact majorly detrimental to the player using it as Kirby loses both range and jump height, while losing only a little in the way of hurtbox size.
Also, Master Hand is/was actually considered a legal character.

And Master Hand outright got banned for freezing the game randomly. It was a problemsome glitch. It doesn't matter if it's a glitch or not by design, it's whether it creates a severe advantage or disadvantage. The legal ones really don't. They're only legal if they don't significantly change the match or if completely intended as a normal tech to be in. Or put it bluntly, they don't get banned unless they break the game outright. There was never a reason to ban L-Cancelling or Wavedashing. Neither even remotely broke the game.

Lol, I should have clarified that better. I meant its not representative of your skill at Smash at general. I do think it is an individual skill, just not part of the big picture. I know a lot of people use this well, but its hard for me to call an unintended mechanic part of your ultimate skill at the game

I agree, you should be awarded for precise playing. Winning is a good reward for me, but theres a catch. Just because you have this skill doesn't mean you are better than those who don't

This is absolutely the point I'm saying. Thank you for understanding precisely what we mean.

It's fine if people think L-Cancelling is not good for the game. I can see how it can be bad or good. I've seen both arguments. I prefer it myself, but it has problems too.

 

[Jebus244]

There is a difference between an essential mechanic and a tiny quirk. Dribbling is the equivalent of attacking, not wave dashing. If you are better at essential skills than someone else, thats when you are better than them. Wavedashing does not dictate your overall skill, its just a trick to use

Dribbling is required for movement, so I would say it's closer to wave dashing, but that wasn't my point. I'm not comparing wave dashing to dribbling. I'm saying used properly, wave dashing is better than not wave dashing. when its uses were found it became standard and it was essential. Whether or not the mechanic was intentional is irrelevant to whether or not it was essential.

 

[ryuu seika]

Do I look like I'm laughing here? I play Melee and am not laughing at anyone who chooses different ways to play. I infact encourage you to find what works best for you. Don't paint people with such a broad brush. You'll find your generalizations aren't even remotely true. And I'm pretty competitive when it comes to playing Melee specifically too.

Fine, I just find a lot of the board to be somewhat intolerant and I swear it was even worse when I joined all that time ago.

No, if they were anywhere close to Snaking, they'd win you the game by being used alone. That's not even remotely true in any way. Snaking specifically is needed to win at Mario Kart because it's built around speed. This doesn't work for Smash because approaching is only one way to play. It's very easy to play defensively while not concentrating as much on approaching. It depends the character entirely. Mario Kart does not work in any similar way. They were always bad comparisons. Doing similar inputs doesn't matter when they way they work is vastly different. As well as how they actually impact the game. Being able to get up closer is nice. But unless you can actually get a hit in, it means jack in a real game.[/quote]

Did you even read what I wrote? I specifically stated how, while they were near identical exploits, they are found in different environments and have differing degrees of usefulness. In a racing game, a linear speed boost from quick turning is far more game breaking than the exact same thing (perfect pivoting) it a fighting game. It makes a big difference in both but I will certainly agree that Smash is not snake to win (even if Solid did have crazy hitboxes).

I never said otherwise. I infact agree. Howwever, that's an issue with Wavedashing not being implemented towards the entire cast and instead left as it was. It has nothing to do with it existing. It was not tested or implemented properly after its discovery. If it's done that way, it ceases to be unbalanced. Likewise, L-Cancelling proves equal stuff to the entire cast. Auto-Cancelling does not, as it's only for certain moves that the developers decide, meaning many characters have far less of an advantage than others. It's actually worse by design. Now, if it was to affect all aerial moves equally or make sure each one gets a proper amount of lag removed to try and balance out the characters, this would be fine. Wavedashing was unintentional when it came up for the developers. So it not being balanced out can be justified in that they didn't intend to increase it and has no idea it would cause such a powerful impact on the game, which only alllwed it to evolve further. They had no control here. They had full control of Auto-Canelling and yet made it intentionally bad for some. L-Cancelling was balanced to work well for all. That's actually the only thing it could have in common with Snaking. Using it helps your game. Not using it does not. Regardless of who you choose. Wavedasing fails to compare to Snaking because it's not good for all characters to use. That's where the comparison falls flat.

You make some good points. Wavedashing is game changing but by no means inherently unbalanced as a mechanic, just not implemented either uniformly or in such a way as to make up for characters' other flaws. Had it been thoroughly tested, it could even have been used as a force for balance, though I doubt that would ever have really happened. Personally, I still don't like the mechanic but, in all honesty, it's mostly opinion, with just a little bit of pain on the side.

Your argument on L-Cancelling vs auto-Cancelling Is well reasoned but not a point for L-Cancelling, just a point against its current replacement. Auto-Cancelling, even if it were uniform or implemented in such a way as to be balanced across characters, is hardly ideal design from what I understand. Getting the cancelled level of lag if landing after a certain point significantly rewards landing on the next frame and actually punishes landing on that frame, when compared to landing immediately. Lag should, IMO, either be constant or inversely proportional to air time (0 would technically fulfil both).

As for wavedashing being character specific and snaking not, I have my doubts on that one. I can't say I've tried snaking in Mario Kart but it's really very character dependant in F-Zero.

It makes perfect sense. You needed to earn your ability to move faster. You had to show skill to win overall. It had nothing to do with the AI either. Not sure where you got this idea. He outright made it for the players as an option to use. Again, there is no cheating. Cheating actually requires you to have a code on or a massive amount of inputs to get a severe advantage. Landing Lag's advantage is nowhere near significant as snaking is in comparison. It's apples to oranges.

Maybe I have been misinformed but I have definitely seen information in the past on these very forums specifically stating that early builds of 64 had no L-Cancelling and a way too easy level 9 Mario (don't ask why him specifically, I really don't know). It claimed that he was then given the ability to land without experiencing any lag from aerials as an AI only superpower but that this was deemed too unfair (by devs or playtesters, I don't really know) and so L-Cancelling was invented to prevent it from seeming like the AI was cheating.
Note that I am not now saying, nor have I ever said that L-Cancelling was cheating. What I am saying is that L-Cancelling when the technique is not in the game is cheating and that players would have been right to be peeved at that shenanigan.

And Master Hand outright got banned for freezing the game randomly.

But not for being port specific? Or did that factor into it too?
He was legal for a good year or two but I'm not surprised he was the second character banned from Melee. Dude did indeed wreck the playability of any match he was in. They'd already ruled that any sign of intentionally freezing the game with him was grounds for disqualification but that ruling was a little too ambiguous for my tastes.

There was never a reason to ban L-Cancelling or Wavedashing. Neither even remotely broke the game.

I feel they warped it a bit but no, they didn't break it.

It's fine if people think L-Cancelling is not good for the game. I can see how it can be bad or good. I've seen both arguments. I prefer it myself, but it has problems too.

The effect isn't bad for the game but the input requirement seems unnecessary is all.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Fine, I just find a lot of the board to be somewhat intolerant and I swear it was even worse when I joined all that time ago.

I hope you realize with that extremely condescending message above about L-Cancelling being awful and everybody being awful for liking it, you're being just as intolerant. And by that, I mean this post; http://smashboards.com/threads/wavedashing-in-smash-4-kind-of.383209/page-3#post-18308271 Simpy put, that was uncalled for. Can't you just respect other opinions instead? Nobody is asking you to like L-Cancelling. But in Melee, you are at a disadvantage for not using it. It doesn't mean you need it to win(it's just more useful than Wavedashing as a whole). I think that's kind of the issue here. You're still assuming these are necessary to win in general. They are very useful, and there will be times where the other player just is going to beat you because of these techs. This happens. However, they alone aren't why they're winning. It's the fact they got so good at the game through immense practice and learning how to read your playstyle as well. Techs don't win games, knowing how to utilize them, your character's skills, and how to read your opponent does. That's what we're saying. Techs are helpful, but not the only thing that matters. Brawl had techs too. Ukemis, Gliding, and various others. Techs are in every game, and they do tend to help people win. But they alone don't do it. That's why I dislike the Snaking comparison. Doing that alone will severely help you win the game. None of the actual techs are severely easy to pull off to the point of going that far. The reason why techs are generally not banned in Smash is because they actually do not severely affect the outcome of the match. Now, let's not pretend Snaking doesn't require skill. But it has such a large impact that it was the only tech worth using. Other things didn't matter. It's more equivalent to the Meta Knight of Brawl, who was so powerful/unfair that people stopped using their mains and sometimes didn't even bother to train against other MK's with their own mains, meaning they didn't adapt against their opponents, they just switched to a higher tier. Of course, new players going into the game as MK from the start are different. They can start with whoever they want. They didn't give up anything to win beyond time for practice. Of course, even then, the comparison is a bit faulty. MK required immense practice to win with, but had better tools than others too. Snaking does require practice to get right, but once you do, the only actual disadvantage is who gets the most speed overall or who's already on top. A better way to explain this comparison is "Do people bother with anything else?" The answer is rarely yes.

Did you even read what I wrote? I specifically stated how, while they were near identical exploits, they are found in different environments and have differing degrees of usefulness. In a racing game, a linear speed boost from quick turning is far more game breaking than the exact same thing (perfect pivoting) it a fighting game. It makes a big difference in both but I will certainly agree that Smash is not snake to win (even if Solid did have crazy hitboxes).

It only actually makes a big difference in specific match ups and mirror matches. Not in general. Again, Wavedashing is vastly overstated on how imporant it is. L-Cancelling is way more key, and it requires far less input or practice to get right. It's a very easy tech to learn and master. Like all techs, doing it right in the heat of battle is a whole nother thing. This can even include air dodging in the proper direction.

And I did misread you a bit. Apologies for that.

You make some good points. Wavedashing is game changing but by no means inherently unbalanced as a mechanic, just not implemented either uniformly or in such a way as to make up for characters' other flaws. Had it been thoroughly tested, it could even have been used as a force for balance, though I doubt that would ever have really happened. Personally, I still don't like the mechanic but, in all honesty, it's mostly opinion, with just a little bit of pain on the side.

It's barely even game-changing.

Your argument on L-Cancelling vs auto-Cancelling Is well reasoned but not a point for L-Cancelling, just a point against its current replacement. Auto-Cancelling, even if it were uniform or implemented in such a way as to be balanced across characters, is hardly ideal design from what I understand. Getting the cancelled level of lag if landing after a certain point significantly rewards landing on the next frame and actually punishes landing on that frame, when compared to landing immediately. Lag should, IMO, either be constant or inversely proportional to air time (0 would technically fulfil both).

It sitll makes L-Cancelling more balanced regardless. And it was never hard by any means to pull off, so there's no reason to act like it is. Note what I said about every single tech in the game. It doesn't matter if it's advanced or simple. What matters is if you can use it properly during battle. That is the skill you need to win. L-Cancelling is a simple tech, bordering on slightly harder than simple. It's way easier than the original Dancing Blade, and barely as hard as Deep Breathing is right now(if not easier too).

As for wavedashing being character specific and snaking not, I have my doubts on that one. I can't say I've tried snaking in Mario Kart but it's really very character dependant in F-Zero.

This isn't F-Zero in question, though. It's Mario Kart. Everybody does well with snaking. The ones that get the least boost are going to be the same for their weight. Any two Middleweights will get the same boost. I don't honestly remember it being any different whatsoever depending who uses it, but everybody gets a boost overall. Wavedashing is not like this. Some can't use it at all. Everybody gets a significant boost provided Snaking is in the game in the first place. And yes, I did like the Solid Snake joke up above. XD

Maybe I have been misinformed but I have definitely seen information in the past on these very forums specifically stating that early builds of 64 had no L-Cancelling and a way too easy level 9 Mario (don't ask why him specifically, I really don't know). It claimed that he was then given the ability to land without experiencing any lag from aerials as an AI only superpower but that this was deemed too unfair (by devs or playtesters, I don't really know) and so L-Cancelling was invented to prevent it from seeming like the AI was cheating.
Note that I am not now saying, nor have I ever said that L-Cancelling was cheating. What I am saying is that L-Cancelling when the technique is not in the game is cheating and that players would have been right to be peeved at that shenanigan.

The problem is that it's never been in any official version of the game without strict intentions. And I never heard of that beta information/early builds, but I'd check SmashWiki or wait to see if anyone can cite that. I highly doubt it wasn't, considering Sakurai had the information on the basic website. Also, I feel that L-Cancelling is way easier than Ukemis, as the timing window is pretty low for L-Cancelling in itself. Ukemis(that's when you press Shield when you hit the floor/ceiling/wall and bounce off of it while being in control of your character, including standing up right away or even rolling away instead).

But not for being port specific? Or did that factor into it too?
He was legal for a good year or two but I'm not surprised he was the second character banned from Melee. Dude did indeed wreck the playability of any match he was in. They'd already ruled that any sign of intentionally freezing the game with him was grounds for disqualification but that ruling was a little too ambiguous for my tastes.

Ports don't matter really. 1/2/3/4 would make no difference. Getting it to work right without freezing the game and the tediousness of it all has more factors to deal with. And yes, if it constantly freezes the game, it makes sense to fully ban the character. Wait, somebody else was banned from Melee? He's the first and only to my knowledge. Then again, maybe that was a tourney creator that SmashWiki didn't cover. The only two I know are banned so far is Master Hand and later Meta Knight for a short period. This isn't counting random TO's with character bans for whatever reason. I know somebody who banned Mr. Game & Watch in Melee at one time. I think it's silly because he's not honestly broken in that game by any means. Sheik was far better overall.

I feel they warped it a bit but no, they didn't break it.

Wavedashing, a bit. L-Cancelling didn't really warp the game, though. It just actually made sure you could actually attack faster. It was entirely intentional to be used that way anyway, so it's kind of hard to warp what it's supposed to be. Nowadays, yeah, it would make a big difference since it's not available. For the record, I actually would be okay with some ideal custom equipment setup that used Smooth Lander and badges that even out your exact stats. (like 7/7/7) But it has to be available for all players on a console, and that's nowhere near easy. The badge in itself isn't easy to obtain. I feel it isn't a proper solution either, as it's harder to get the exact stat requirements by getting the exact equipment on every console/handheld. Even Project M tourneys are easier to implement in comparison. XD

The effect isn't bad for the game but the input requirement seems unnecessary is all.

It's literally the same as a Ukemi, which is severely easy. My issue with it is more the fact that failing to do so gives you lag and no actual good sides. It's not like you shield a bit. By reducing the lag, you can start up combos or attacks faster. The risk is too high. Keep in mind I never even thought about this factor before because it wasn't actual notable to me. I L-Cancelled so often as a natural thing and didn't utilize combos constantly, that it was a whole new revelation to find out how bad the risk/reward system was. I didn't see it as unnecessary, I see the real problem with the risk/reward system in itself.

 

[Roukiske]

I think in many competitive games there are characters who can excel without AT's. Characters such as Jigglypuff (SSBM), Ryu (SF4), and CaptainAmerica (UMvC3). If AT's get discouraging I'd HIGHLY recommend finding those types of characters. I don't think PP (or WD) is insta-win nor will it up your game if you use a character who doesn't need it.

To those who don't understand Mario Kart DS snaking, just know this, everyone character can do it and its such a speed increase that you just cannot win against someone who does use it (properly) if you don't. That's why people did not like snaking. Although, if you could snake and played against people who could also snake, its pretty fun.

 

[ryuu seika]

I hope you realize with that extremely condescending message above about L-Cancelling being awful and everybody being awful for liking it, you're being just as intolerant. Simpy put, that was uncalled for. Can't you just respect other opinions instead?

I'd like to think his complete lack of understanding as to why and refusal to see that L-Cancelling is poor design justified my overblown reaction but we all know that isn't true . I'm sorry to have overreacted. I'm not going to continue the discussion with him but that was indeed a bit much.

I think that's kind of the issue here. You're still assuming these are necessary to win in general. They are very useful, and there will be times where the other player just is going to beat you because of these techs.

Setting aside how contradictory those sentences seem, I guess I've just had it so ingrained in my time here that they're such a massive advantage that a good player with techs will always beat the absolute best possible player without. I'm sure that's something like 20%, 80% exaggeration but sometimes you just get so fed up with not being good enough that you start to believe the crap people say, you know?

It sitll makes L-Cancelling more balanced regardless. And it was never hard by any means to pull off, so there's no reason to act like it is. Note what I said about every single tech in the game. It doesn't matter if it's advanced or simple. What matters is if you can use it properly during battle. That is the skill you need to win. L-Cancelling is a simple tech, bordering on slightly harder than simple. It's way easier than the original Dancing Blade, and barely as hard as Deep Breathing is right now(if not easier too).

I don't mean to act like L-Cancelling is hard. I'm sure it's not once you know what you're doing. It's just both significantly harder than it needs to be (it doesn't need to be at all) and quite well hidden. And, unlike with other techs, "using it properly" isn't about knowing when and why to use it, it's about repetition and nothing more.

Also, I feel that L-Cancelling is way easier than Ukemis, as the timing window is pretty low for L-Cancelling in itself. Ukemis(that's when you press Shield when you hit the floor/ceiling/wall and bounce off of it while being in control of your character, including standing up right away or even rolling away instead).

Ukemis atleast have thought to them though.

Ports don't matter really. 1/2/3/4 would make no difference. Getting it to work right without freezing the game and the tediousness of it all has more factors to deal with. And yes, if it constantly freezes the game, it makes sense to fully ban the character.

Master Hand, being port specific (3 only), was not freely available to everyone. One of the reasons he saw little play was because of how much of an organizational issue that posed. Of course, the freezing and the slow, highly telegraphed attacks and the access method were all far more significant reasons but he did have a slight playerbase.

Wait, somebody else was banned from Melee? The only two I know are banned so far is Master Hand and later Meta Knight for a short period.

As I recall it, Meta Knight was banned before Master Hand. He was also banned in Melee long before Brawl finally made that call too. Either way, it doesn't really matter.

L-Cancelling didn't really warp the game, though. It just actually made sure you could actually attack faster. It was entirely intentional to be used that way anyway, so it's kind of hard to warp what it's supposed to be.

Fair enough.

For the record, I actually would be okay with some ideal custom equipment setup that used Smooth Lander and badges that even out your exact stats. (like 7/7/7) But it has to be available for all players on a console, and that's nowhere near easy. The badge in itself isn't easy to obtain. I feel it isn't a proper solution either, as it's harder to get the exact stat requirements by getting the exact equipment on every console/handheld.

I'm not convinced on the idea either and it is, as you say, highly unfeasible. My personal favourite way to play Smash 4 is with low gravity, high speed and permanent tanook suits. I would certainly try smooth lander were it viable to equip everyone identically though.

My issue with it is more the fact that failing to do so gives you lag and no actual good sides. It's not like you shield a bit. By reducing the lag, you can start up combos or attacks faster. The risk is too high. Keep in mind I never even thought about this factor before because it wasn't actual notable to me. I L-Cancelled so often as a natural thing and didn't utilize combos constantly, that it was a whole new revelation to find out how bad the risk/reward system was. I didn't see it as unnecessary, I see the real problem with the risk/reward system in itself.

Interesting...

 

[Inazuma]

Instead of simply pressing one or two buttons to do every move in this game, they should change it so we have to press 12 buttons for each move, like every other fighting game. That way, there would be more skill involved, right? And while we are at it, we shouldn't use the analog stick for character movement because that's too easy. Instead, you should have to unplug your controller, hold down a shoulder button and a face button and plug the controller back in, while drinking orange soda. Depending on when you swallow the orange soda, your character will move in one of 8 directions. It would be difficult to pull this off, thus increasing the skill level of the game, and in turn, creating a much better competitive experience for pros.

In other words, that was sarcasm and I agree with ryuu seika. Having to literally flick the control stick to pull off a superior movement technique and destroy your controller in the process is unnecessary and does more harm to the game than good. Having to press L to reduce landing lag constantly in older games is part of the reason I didn't want to play them competitively. Instead of everyone pressing L to land every time, we have it done automatically. The end result is exactly the same (everything is L canceled), except now we don't have to worry about doing it manually and can focus on mind games. A big reason why Smash Brothers is better than other fighting games is because it doesn't have overly complex controls. Another great fighting game with good controls was Power Stone. Just like in Smash, every move could be performed with one or two button presses.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'd like to think his complete lack of understanding as to why and refusal to see that L-Cancelling is poor design justified my overblown reaction but we all know that isn't true . I'm sorry to have overreacted. I'm not going to continue the discussion with him but that was indeed a bit much.

Alright. Thank you for being honestly reasonable and seeing the issue here. To be fair, I don't like mentality of "use this or lose" either, for the record. I'm a bit more on your side than it comes off as.

Setting aside how contradictory those sentences seem, I guess I've just had it so ingrained in my time here that they're such a massive advantage that a good player with techs will always beat the absolute best possible player without. I'm sure that's something like 20%, 80% exaggeration but sometimes you just get so fed up with not being good enough that you start to believe the crap people say, you know?

I completely get you. I very much dislike it to. It paints a bad picture. That's why I'm trying to help you see the light on what it really is. They are a bit exaggerated. I won't pretend they aren't helpful, and I get the impression you agree. But I also agree that easier techs are a good thing. What I meant earlier by Dancing Blade is that for a tech to be ridiculously hard to pull off, it should also be reasonably rewarding in return. It actually in itself is balanced due to that. I'm not saying it's something that's entirely ideal. That's clearly a matter of opinion. Of course, I understand you don't find that balanced. And that's fine, too. It was subjective either way.

I don't mean to act like L-Cancelling is hard. I'm sure it's not once you know what you're doing. It's just both significantly harder than it needs to be (it doesn't need to be at all) and quite well hidden. And, unlike with other techs, "using it properly" isn't about knowing when and why to use it, it's about repetition and nothing more.

I'm not so sure about that though. Going against players, it's not too hard to bait them by making it look like you're playing bad, and then throw it out to suddenly start comboing them. It can be used in more than one way. I do admit there's rarely a point in not doing it. I don't do it all the time myself either, but I can't think of anyone who would use it to outsmart the opponent in the way I said. I wouldn't call it mindless, but I can see how one can come to that conclusion. And to be fair, practice is repetition anyway in many caes. I"m not sure how that matters. You still need to be skillful enough to use it at the right time and pull it off always. Since it's just a button press, it's not going to destroy sticks or anything.

Ukemis atleast have thought to them though.

As I said above, I also believe L-Cancelling does too, and I actually do Ukemis and even Ness' Up B thoughtlessly myself. They're natural stuff to me. I have one direction down pat in every Smash game because of how much I practiced one single Up B. You can utilize Ukemis a bit better, but I don't think any tech is truly thoughtless. I think playing mind games by not doing a particular tech can still be useful. Of course, I'm not high competitive so I could be wrong on that.

Master Hand, being port specific (3 only), was not freely available to everyone. One of the reasons he saw little play was because of how much of an organizational issue that posed. Of course, the freezing and the slow, highly telegraphed attacks and the access method were all far more significant reasons but he did have a slight playerbase.

I've played as him with a Gameshark in the 64 version and via Action Replay in Melee. I can believe it. He's fun. Did you know he had a Side B in 64? We're not talking about how Link's Boomerang changes depending if using Neutral or Side B, but a completely different move.

As I recall it, Meta Knight was banned before Master Hand. He was also banned in Melee long before Brawl finally made that call too. Either way, it doesn't really matter.

Uh, you know Meta Knight isn't in Melee, right? If I understand that sentence right.

Fair enough.

*nods*

I'm not convinced on the idea either and it is, as you say, highly unfeasible. My personal favourite way to play Smash 4 is with low gravity, high speed and permanent tanook suits. I would certainly try smooth lander were it viable to equip everyone identically though.

Pretty much. It's very important the stats are unchanged as much as possible from their original settings, if only for a coherent tier list. I think it works for smaller tourneys, but not as a strong idea otherwise.

Interesting...

Yep. Despite being a person who did L-Cancelling often(and Ukemis even more), I didn't fully understand how to actually utilize them well for a very long time. I may play competitive at times, but I very much am low tier as a player by all means. I can't cut it against many people. I still have fun, so I'm not complaining, though.

 

[Jebus244]

I'd like to think his complete lack of understanding as to why and refusal to see that L-Cancelling is poor design justified my overblown reaction but we all know that isn't true . I'm sorry to have overreacted. I'm not going to continue the discussion with him but that was indeed a bit much.

Its okay, I wasn't offended. I think you have a self inflicted misconception about competitive play. While I understand where you're coming from, I just disagree.

 

[ryuu seika]

I completely get you. I very much dislike it to. It paints a bad picture. That's why I'm trying to help you see the light on what it really is. They are a bit exaggerated. I won't pretend they aren't helpful, and I get the impression you agree.

Thanks for that then. I'm probably not going to fully get the message until I face someone at that level of play though and I really don't think I'm up for the loss of what little sense of skill still I have.

What I meant earlier by Dancing Blade is that for a tech to be ridiculously hard to pull off, it should also be reasonably rewarding in return. It actually in itself is balanced due to that. I'm not saying it's something that's entirely ideal. That's clearly a matter of opinion. Of course, I understand you don't find that balanced. And that's fine, too. It was subjective either way.

Well, yes and no. The risk/reward balance sounds fine, it's just the potential reward compared to other moves that doesn't but maybe that's my problem, needing to be able to beat what can be, not what is. (Darn you Shulk!)

I've played as him with a Gameshark in the 64 version and via Action Replay in Melee. I can believe it. He's fun. Did you know he had a Side B in 64? We're not talking about how Link's Boomerang changes depending if using Neutral or Side B, but a completely different move.

That is really interesting. Evidence of future plans or simply spare input mapping, who can say but it's fun knowldge either way.

Uh, you know Meta Knight isn't in Melee, right? If I understand that sentence right.

I am aware, yes. He was officially banned from the game by the Backroom committee anyway, presumably as some sort of anti-brawl joke.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Thanks for that then. I'm probably not going to fully get the message until I face someone at that level of play though and I really don't think I'm up for the loss of what little sense of skill still I have.

Possibly. Sometimes you need experience directly more than anything.

Well, yes and no. The risk/reward balance sounds fine, it's just the potential reward compared to other moves that doesn't but maybe that's my problem, needing to be able to beat what can be, not what is. (Darn you Shulk!)

Okay, now that I agree with. It's evened out compared to other moves in Brawl/4, then.

That is really interesting. Evidence of future plans or simply spare input mapping, who can say but it's fun knowldge either way.

I incorporated something akin to Final Smashes on a fan site where fictional characters commentate. To say the least, this helped. A + B was the Final Smash(called Super Move) on my site bit. I forget if I actually added Side B to the movesets before or after it was properly known. Regardless, yeah, I really do wonder. Final Smashes were apparently an idea since the first game. I think we found some words or whatever related to it. I forgot what it was exactly.

I am aware, yes. He was officially banned from the game by the Backroom committee anyway, presumably as some sort of anti-brawl joke.

...Wow. I mean, Brawl may be my least favorite, but it's still an overall good game. Just needed far more polish. I have my own opinion on Meta Knight, but it's somewhat complex. I wrote about it in the "are you casual or competitve" thread if you want to see it right out.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Everyone else is having a flame war, and I'm just trying to find a way out of that annoying slide animation.

 

[mangamusicfan]

I like this trick a lot its so handy

 

[Quillion]

Will Nintendo ever get the hint about these "dash" techniques and just make a command dash that allows you to do anything out of it like wavedashing and perfect pivoting, just like in Marvel vs Capcom 3?

I for one am fed up with these debates over whether these techs need to exist or not, and I'd rather take an option that opposes (or compromises) both.

 

[ZexM]

While I know I'm late to the party, I still would like to give my 2 cents:

While not wavedashing, it is still a great spacing and movement too that can be used very effectively. Hell, like wavedashing you can simply dash and PP speed up your momentum and make educated spacing decisions like you could when wavedashing. Brawl you could do this, but the chances of you prat falling heavily increased. Even fox-trotting is punishable by brawl laws of physics.

Exploitation of any feature of a game allows for the metagame to grow and become more enriching for the competitive community. Granted, that means that the casual community may have reach a point break where playing with those in the competitive scene completely overshadow casual mindsets of how the game should be played, but it still is individual choice at the end of the day. Besides the option to dive into the world of possibilities opened up by game exploitation is by definition more expansive than the original game itself. It will always be there for anyone to enjoy. And it won't judge you, just people. And people suck. But one thing that people and the game have in common is a definition of who is the victor of the game. And that is what matters more than how you win. Just that you did.

If players are are complaining to you to use advance techniques (be it melee of sm4sh) you still have the choice to oblige them or disoblige. Doing either or doesn't make you any more or less competitive or casual. I really don't think it should bother people so much. Past that the only other option is to simply not play. But, obviously the community will always want you to respond like cocky cowboy, "I'll be your huckleberry" and challenge someone to a game. Just win. That's all you have to do. Win without this or any advance technique and you'll be loved and hated, but just win. Advance techniques are just tool made to help make the job more efficient. It only becomes more work when someone else can do it at the same level or better. And isn't that the nature of competitive play after all? The rest is just fluff.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Do not bump very old threads please.