Was our new jab combo worth the loss of resetting?

[RespectingOpinions]

As we know, Marth's jab was changed in the new patch. While this can lead to a plethora of mind games, it also means Marth can no longer jab reset at all. Do you think this was a worthy trade off?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Considering Marth didn't have a way to reliably set up reset opportunities, I'd take a super ranged mindgame setup any day

 

[RespectingOpinions]

At middle percentages, fair could lead to a jab reset tipper, if not teched. While I didn't use it often I know many Marths did.

 

[Foodies]

Definitely. Jab resets are a lot more situational than jab to RPS situations for damage/kills. Plus at certain %s and rage it seems there's potential to combo (or at least it's very hard to escape) into kills (ftilt, utilt) depending on DI/character, which needs to be looked into more. If you catch your opponent mashing the wrong option (or just not reacting at all), fsmash and usmash will work too. Hitting jab now gives Marth a pretty significant situational advantage: from what I can tell the safest thing to do is jump away. Plus you can also take the easy damage route and just use jab2 after, which seems to cause tumble pretty early, which can also lead to more damage.

 

[Pugwest]

It killed my infinite in doubles with Zss since it required jab reseting but i do prefer this now.

 

[H-O-G]

I am loving the new jab1 it has increased my aggressive spacing significantly. It also, setups combos and mindgames.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

I would just Fsmash enemies who didn't tech, rather than jab and then Fsmash. ^_^;; Just a bit of damage less, I guess.

 

[H-O-G]

Jab1 into dancing blade iz also nice and the jab one iz also safe to approach, space, and not over commit. It iz just amazing, I wish I could post a few vids for people 2 c some of its applications.

 

[EternalFlame]

The jab lock with Marth was finicky to begin with, so this helps my setup game tremendously. As H-O-G also mentions, it sets up to DB nicely with the right spacing; more importantly, the principles of all setups involves a little lift off of a light hit, so you can link setup after setup with a relative degree of safety.

 

[H-O-G]

Yes someone who understands the use of jab 1. I feel it breathes life into his metagame, the applications for jab1 iz amazing.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yes. Its a solid consistent move for mix-ups and easily works into his game.

A near useless button was made functional and quite strong.

There is no comparison.

 

[H-O-G]

Jab1> jab2 possible tumble into a foxtrot fsmash, jab1> jab1> jab2, jab1> grab> dthrow> upair/bair. There are several others but these are the ones that have been reliable for me. Also, the jab1 keeps opps at bay and iz generally safe.

 

[KillLock]

Yes. Its a solid consistent move for mix-ups and easily works into his game.

A near useless button was made functional and quite strong.

There is no comparison.

This this this.

No one should question this over a situational jab reset.

 

[Adrwisler]

The First Jab works great as a set-up move. The second jab, which comes much faster definitely pushes opponents away from you. Against good players it is hard to follow up with a fair, but I use mostly now if they are near the edge so I can immediately mindgame while I Ledge-Guard. This just makes it easier to put the stress on the other player trying to grab that edge.

I am pretty sure the first Jab still has a lot of ways to go, but the second jabs ability to actually give you back your spacing is awesome.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Jab to Nair/fair is actually the most braindead frame trap in the game right now imo. They either get hit, airdodge or jump. And if they dont jump fast enough they still get hit. But even if they jump, you will land before them and now you are in control. If they airdodge just punish their recovery. Only characters with a counter or a sword can really challenge. Anyone else is in for a gamble. Once you condition them, that's when f-smash set-ups become very scary.

 

[Darklink401]

Jab to tipper fsmash is a followup

Just let that process


On a side note, I actually suck at jab resetting so I am much more excited for this.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Brings us up about 5 on the tier list. I'd say it's worth it. When the day finally comes to get a fair buff we'll not be truely stopped by anyone.

 

[Darklink401]

Brings us up about 5 on the tier list. I'd say it's worth it. When the day finally comes to get a fair buff we'll not be truely stopped by anyone.

All I really want is for more dthrow combos ;-;

Our dthrow has more hitstun than Roys, but they go so far....

 

[Freelance Spy]

All I really want is for more dthrow combos ;-;

Our dthrow has more hitstun than Roys, but they go so far....

That's your biggest issue with Marth? There are a lot of changes I'd make before dthrow alterations.

 

[Darklink401]

That's your biggest issue with Marth? There are a lot of changes I'd make before dthrow alterations.

Well if we could combo dthrow into tipper fsmash at mid %s...

 

[Solutionme]

What yo're all failing to recognize however is how the jab can be used on the ledge. Think about it for a moment.

THE LEDGE: WHERE PEOPLE JUMP TO GET BACK ON STAGE.

They lose their jump and you keep them in place with the jab, three options all very very poor.

Recover back on stage.
Fall to the ledge.
Fall under the ledge and recover.

Just let that sit in for a moment cause Jab might have become our best move.

 

[Freelance Spy]

What yo're all failing to recognize however is how the jab can be used on the ledge. Think about it for a moment.

THE LEDGE: WHERE PEOPLE JUMP TO GET BACK ON STAGE.

They lose their jump and you keep them in place with the jab, three options all very very poor.

Recover back on stage.
Fall to the ledge.
Fall under the ledge and recover.

Just let that sit in for a moment cause Jab might have become our best move.

People mostly try to recover low anyways. Situational, but definitely useful. I'll argure DB is best move

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

As much as I love jab resets, this new jab is leagues better. I immediately forgot about jab resting once I saw the angle of knockback it has. On top of that, you can combo into it.

Up tilt got a nice buff too considering it knocks people up no matter what, or combo into UpB with it. Marth has so much control now and situational stuff he had before is useless in comparison.

 

[RespectingOpinions]

When I made this post, I didn't realize how useful jab could be. The mixups are endless now, and I'll need to lab a bit with it. I rarely ever use jab resets anyway lol.

 

[H-O-G]

Yes, the new jab is very reliable. You can go aggro, space, and camp at the same damn time!!!

 

[Solutionme]

Honestly It'd be even more stupidly strong if it could reliably lead into a free shield break, too bad shield stun does not exist.
So I'm sure all of you as well as I believe the only thing Marth needs at this point to be considered much more viable is either more set-ups or a slightly buffed combo game that does not rely solely on uair and nair. Or hell, instead of that, bring back double fair short hop and reduce the lag slightly, just not 7 frames or it would be too good.

Side note: Anyone know if Dashing Assault is even useful anymore? No jab Reset not to mention it can't really combo and the ending lag is horrible for a recovery move.

 

[LoreLes]

I prefer this new jab.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Honestly It'd be even more stupidly strong if it could reliably lead into a free shield break, too bad shield stun does not exist.
So I'm sure all of you as well as I believe the only thing Marth needs at this point to be considered much more viable is either more set-ups or a slightly buffed combo game that does not rely solely on uair and nair. Or hell, instead of that, bring back double fair short hop and reduce the lag slightly, just not 7 frames or it would be too good.

Side note: Anyone know if Dashing Assault is even useful anymore? No jab Reset not to mention it can't really combo and the ending lag is horrible for a recovery move.

As a custom moves user in a custom meta I can tell you that DA has never REALLY been good. Too much startup and not nearly enough damage to replace your best shield punish/mindgame tool. It's marginally useful in about two MUs where you get camped out or the opponent hates shields.

It's not a bad move per say, but SB is much better. Plus SB kills, kills un tipper and is Marth's longest range move.

BTW sanic is that MU. Da is good versus sonic.

 

[Solutionme]

As a custom moves user in a custom meta I can tell you that DA has never REALLY been good. Too much startup and not nearly enough damage to replace your best shield punish/mindgame tool. It's marginally useful in about two MUs where you get camped out or the opponent hates shields.

It's not a bad move per say, but SB is much better. Plus SB kills, kills un tipper and is Marth's longest range move.

BTW sanic is that MU. Da is good versus sonic.

Yeah I see it there, but only there, plus what Sonic would actually shield? You're killing 18 frames in which you can punish.

 

[Shaya]

I love this new jab because it actually gives Marth a new tool from Brawl to now. It's now also always safe on hit, as is up tilt... one of his nuanced weaknesses erased in one swoop.

But yeah, actually something new and cool to work with while still having all the core tenets of the Marth I love? SCORE.

 

[Freelance Spy]

I love this new jab because it actually gives Marth a new tool from Brawl to now. It's now also always safe on hit, as is up tilt... one of his nuanced weaknesses erased in one swoop.

But yeah, actually something new and cool to work with while still having all the core tenets of the Marth I love? SCORE.

Now if only Luci could get a few of her weaknesses taken away...

Shaya, you've been a huge contributer to the Marth boards for a long time. In your opinion how much do these changes affect our worst MUs?

 

[Solutionme]

Lucina for better footsies and Marth for better juggles? I've honestly always felt that Lucina should have Marth and Roy attributes mixed in considering her blade has no sweetspot. Maybe next smash?

 

[SpottedCerberus]

I've always found jab resets to be a bit cheap and situational. The new jab is amazing.

 

[Shaya]

Now if only Luci could get a few of her weaknesses taken away...

Shaya, you've been a huge contributer to the Marth boards for a long time. In your opinion how much do these changes affect our worst MUs?

Every match up is better. Maybe not ZSS as much (she can likely flip jump out of any jab traps, lol).
But Luigi and Mario? They really don't like our jab. Neither does Pikachu.
Sheik? Well Dolphin Slash killing earlier is great as she doesn't have ways to challenge it. Jab traps her pretty hard as she likely struggles to jump out of it.
Sonic and Yoshi feasibily not that much better, but in general up tilt/jab being safe to use now is of similar impact as dancing blade suddenly being safe to use (because you don't get punished for using them in the right situations anymore). Rosalina match up is around about the same still too I'd say.

But yeah, beyond the knockback of jab 1 being better, the fact that the jab transition is that much faster + always comboing just makes it a significantly better move to use, can't highlight this enough.
Up Tilt isn't a combo-esque move anymore but gives us all the breathing space + positional dominance for us to capitalize on.

 

[Solutionme]

Every match up is better. Maybe not ZSS as much (she can likely flip jump out of any jab traps, lol).
But Luigi and Mario? They really don't like our jab. Neither does Pikachu.
Sheik? Well Dolphin Slash killing earlier is great as she doesn't have ways to challenge it. Jab traps her pretty hard as she likely struggles to jump out of it.

But yeah, beyond the knockback of jab 1 being better, the fact that the jab transition is that much faster + always comboing just makes it a significantly better move to use, can't highlight this enough.
Up Tilt isn't a combo-esque move anymore but gives us all the breathing space + positional dominance for us to capitalize on.

Can't you pseudo combo with u-tilt if the opponent lost their jump? Also I'm not sure about this but I think jab is able to combo into itself repeatedly at higher percents. Can you verify this? Pre-patch I always used jab against an approaching Luigi because it was quick and safe enough that hitting him with it pushed him far back due to the bad traction. Now that it got changed, it helps not only punish the same approaches after a fireball, it helps me put a mindgame and juggle to use and the characters you mentioned who don't like the jab to me tend to struggle getting back down against characters who are known for juggling, so it helps a ton.