Wam's Chaos Game Thread

[bessie]

Here’s my reads, they are not as well organized or thorough as I had hoped, and I glossed over a lot of content from later pages of the game. I wanted to try and catch the players in Europe before they signed off for the night but I know I didn't make it, I apologize.


Woof

bessie
Some commentary on my content; those that called me out in the early part of the game for fluffy content were absolutely justified, from their point of view. In rereading, I would say that #42, #99, and #187 can appear to anyone (who is not me or the Right Side of My Brain) to be fluff with a number of subtle snarks at Sabrar (I do not expect anyone to follow my mindset for the early posts). But by #235, my posts were transitioning into more outwardly solid content, including a serious question to somitomi to which he did not respond (more on this later). Note that I received no reaction to my Woof-Grr list #249, which is interesting (more on this where it is relevant).


Deadbananas
I’m not going spend a lot of time analyzing Deadbanana’s content and why he is a town lean for me, for an example I’m just going to reference his OP for his mindset.

Do to the large presence of dogs in this game odds are one is mafia. Therefore I propose we all become cat people and that's why I would like to full clear Heury.

His logic is exactly backwards; with three dogs in this game, at least one is guaranteed to be town. Right from the start, Deadbananas is not being overly cautious in his posts, and I feel this is a townie.


Ranmaru
Not on my yeet list for today. Ranmaru will self-resolve as the game progresses. I moved him down on my Woof-Grr list because I am pondering his “Laserguy lacks conviction” argument and the timing.


LaserGuy
Laserguy is also a town lean for me and I’m not going to go too much in his content today, I do want to comment on something I pointed out earlier that I was thinking about.

I feel kind of offended that you think I would let Tattertot make so many rookie mistakes if we were mafia together.

I’ve been thinking a lot of the discussions of Tattertot’s newness and his (non)reaction to Ranmaru’s RVS vote. And my mind always wanders back to newbie scum Laserguy in what I think was The Dark Tower Mafia (but I can’t get it to load on the Wayback Machine right now), and his very calm response to a quick pile of RVS votes. I town read him strongly on the early pages of that game for his reaction. This is just something I want to note for now because I do not yet know if it is relevant to my Tattertot read or not, but it is not something I am interested in pursuing toady.


Sabrar
Sabrar’s #20 is interesting in retrospect, just noting this for now. I currently do not have a lot to say about Sabrar, except that I feel Sabrar’s questions to me in #162 are filler. It could be an attempt at interaction with me because (1) he’s town and I’m his favorite person in the world and he missed playing with me, or (2) he’s scum, and he knows he needs to engage with me so he is reaching for something to discuss. If I have time I might comment more on his #350.


BoomFrog
BoomFrog hasn’t posted at all this game. Therefore, this is my true neutral line.


Swiss
Swiss’s content is a lot of LAMIST and subtle rolefishing with his continued vig soft claims. Note that Swiss did not react to my Woof-Grr list in #249 until prodded, I feel this is relevant because it is an indication that he is not thinking deeply about my posts, and coincided exactly with when he flipped me in his reads list from strong town to strong scum in #264. I also find it interesting that the reasons given by Swiss for the flip are that my posts are empty, which as explained above, I think this observation for my early posts is valid. But this read comes after the time where I consider my posts transitioning from more fluff to more solid. I have requested Swiss make his case on me in #361 and #414 and crickets.


HeuryAlone
Heury has a very laid-back playstyle and is almost impossible to provoke, this makes him both a pleasure to play with and annoyingly difficult to read. Sabrar noticed that I didn’t pursue Heury for #15 which could have been scum!Heury rolefishing; the reason was that I also read it as a possible slip by Heury that he had a power role. In my reread of Heury, these posts stood out to me.
By P2 #50, Heury is already speculating that Tattertot will be the D1 yeet.

Ooo getting reads based on profile picture update. Will be interesting to see tattertot's alignment flip now.

This is interesting in retrospect, considering Heury’s tunnel of Tattertot.

I disagree with the reasoning in #61 for reading Tattertot as scum.

I am also leaning on tattertot being mafia. They've been online reading the thread, but only answers some of the questions addressed. Also, newer players are hardest to read. Could be newbie syndrome or mafia syndrome. If tattertot flips mafia, I think that also clears ranmaru, since I doubt ranmaru would bus a newbie scrum partner so early on. Dead banana likely cleared for some reason (but ranmaru slightly more cleared for mentioning it first).

I also disagree with his meta read of Ranmaru, and with his general game meta observations, but this does not necessarily equate with a scum tell in my mind.

The last quote I want to analyze is #299.

Bessie's fluffiness is one of the best things about her.
Does too much fluff equate to scum for you?

I find it interesting that somi is the only xkcd player that doesn't have a town lean on Bessie currently.

Heury acknowledges the apparent fluffiness of my early posts and defends it, which I think is NAI. But I find the last sentence especially interesting, and I wonder if it is scum!Heury fishing for a reaction, or town!Heury calling out the xkcd players for meta townie reading me. This quote is the reason that while I still have a scum lean of Heury, he is not in my top two. I will also discuss this in relation to somitomi in my analysis of him.


Tattertot
I find it interesting that Tattertot is stressing their newness to online mafia as an excuse for their awkwardness (see #13, #63, #76 et al) but then says this in #147.

Just want to throw out there that up until this point I have not received any coaching. I have been offered help and guidance if I felt I need it but haven't felt I need it yet if ever. Mafia is mafia. Online or not it very alike.

I have also prodded Tattertot with regard to their experience in #361 and they have not yet answered.

There has been much discussion on Tattertot’s naturalness in the thread and how they do not appear to have been coached, but I disagree, because there are occasional indications of a more experienced influence in their posts (and if so that the partner is not very active). In #76, they keep their cool regarding Ranmaru’s RVS vote (refer to my thoughts in my Laserguy analysis), and they also make an interesting observation regarding Heury’s claim that he doesn’t try as mafia (an observation they repeat in #147).

Re the cat avatar, I do not see this as a newbie town tell at all, I think it is at best NAI, and at worse it is what it appears to be on the surface, which is an awkward attempt to fake a town tell. But I do believe that if Tattertot is mafia, this clears Heury, since he has the other cat avatar.


somitomi
somitomi’s first substantial post is #180; he was rushed because he joined the game late, and I think in trying to catch up he scum slipped.

At least the firework of everyone using their shots all at once should blind mafia during the night.

Yeah, it's possible mafia would push a newbie mate under the bus. If they were - excuse my Klatchian - a complete ****, that is.

I believe the first comment is an error that shows a scum mindset. There are no powers that would blind mafia. All powers in this game could lead to inconclusive results for town. For the second comment, I first read it as somitomi wanting to keep this possibility open because Tattertot is the only newbie in the game.

In #220 somitomi is the first player to call me out for fluff, but still has me as a town lean.

bessie: tone feels normal, but her posts feel... light? Maybe I'm used to the tunneling bessie
=neutral line=

See also #275 where somitomi is questioned on this by Deadbananas and gives a very noncommittal response, which is more like a soft push with caveats, like he is fishing for support.

Good question and one that prompted me to think about my townreads a bit, because that side is usually more gut-feely (especially on D1) and I often have a hard time deciding on an order or justifying it even to myself. It pushes her towards the non-town end because her posting isn't low in volume by bessie standards so if I'm not finding substance there, then some of it's fluff. And while bessie's not above fluff, I thoguht there was a little too much of it here.

His read evolves to a town lean in #306, but without any apparent progression.

Ok, guess you actually missed that list, because bessie is still a town lean, just not a strong one. As for fluff, it doesn't equal scum by any stretch of the imagination, it's not even a strong tell or anything, but it's a hint.

For my suspicion that somitomi may be partners with Tattertot, refer to the question I asked somitomi in #235 re his opinion on Tattertot’s cat avatar, which he did not answer.

You’ve totally missed the point (or did you??). This wasn’t a random pic, and it wasn’t selected pre-game, like how I changed my avatar to "Happy Bessie" before the game started. Tattertot selected a cat avatar to breadcrumb town. Please reevaluate.

somitomi , why did you not react to my #434 in your #435, when it is obvious I was preparing a case on you?

Grr


Vote: somitomi

 

[ranmaru]

Ranmaru
Not on my yeet list for today. Ranmaru will self-resolve as the game progresses. I moved him down on my Woof-Grr list because I am pondering his “Laserguy lacks conviction” argument and the timing.

Talk to me more about this. Also, why haven't you interacted with me all game?

 

[bessie]

I haven’t interacted with you for two reasons:

1. You haven’t asked me a direct question that required a response.
2. Nothing in your content thus far has pinged me enough for me to note in thread.

As you know, I’m a very reactive player, and am not good at generating early content for itself. I used to be better at it on my home site, where there was a lot of setup discussion and meta in-jokes.

In my reread, I had in my notes that Sabrar made a comment in #212 that Laserguy’s scum reads lacked conviction. I also had in my notes that you made this same observation in your Laserguy read in #216. I reread both these posts in preparation for making this post, and I see that you did acknowledge Sabrar’s earlier comment, which I missed earlier. I noted this earlier to keep track for possible late game analysis, but did not expect it to be significant now.

 

[ranmaru]

Thank you. Can you comment on my LaserGuy case? What's your take on it?

 

[bessie]

Fore reference:

LaserGuy - I think Laser's #178 is a scum post. It shows he cares more about his positioning rather than actually sorting Somi. It is apparent that his intention was to skip support of Tattertot's wagon since he was in his POE. We can see this as he's pre-maturely voting Somi at a point where Tattertot had 0 votes, and Somi just started catching up. I agree with Sabrar's #212 that Laser isn't showing any conviction, and this is the most important quality to reading LaserGuy, rather than how reasonable he seems. LaserGuy has the ability to be reasonable and also give good reads on players that he believes are town (as scum) yet I believe that hurts himself since he has to fake scumreads. It is more apparent when he has no conviction. Consistently, if you see LaserGuy actually be obvious town and full of confidence, you have a better chance at determining him as town. I also think his scumlean on Somi is a little un-fair, and pre-mature.

Here is a reads post from Scum!Laser in Oasis Mafia: (#132) On Page 4. So he clearly has the ability to make reads as either alignment and remain reasonable. Really his only weakness if the lack of confidence. I think it is a mistake for anyone to read him townie simply for him being reasonable, and I have already made that mistake before. (My #134 in Oasis Mafia) This is why I find it best to simply let Laser's play play out, and see how it progresses.

Here is an example of Town!Laser showing conviction, and stubborness: #242 #370

I also had initial concern over #178, which is why I threw some bessie shade at LaserGuy for his somitomi vote in my #187.

Hmm. Reasons? You know that I am always suspicious of a vote without reasons.

I think LaserGuy gave you a reasonable response in his #256.

My intention to vote somi was to provoke him. I have a hard time believing that you have played so many games with Xivii and have never seen a naked vote used in this manner before. At the time my PoE was also quite tight so I felt somitomi had a decent chance of being a hit anyway, but I had no illusions of starting a wagon on him at this stage.

I have often thought that the Force was strong between LaserGuy and Xivii, and thus do not see it as odd if they employ similar tactics.

Re your analysis that LaserGuy was voting somitomi to draw attention from Tattertot, I don’t have any further comment to offer because I don’t do well at behavior-type analysis, and I state this as a weakness of mine in almost every game.

Re Laser’s alignment affecting his reads, I read your link to Oasis Mafia and I think that it is reasonable to expect less certainty from Laser in his reads that game as either alignment, as this was his first game on this forum, and he didn’t have a lot of experience with most of the players, or with the forum meta. Though I do see the contrast with the posts you linked from Sumting Mafia.

IIRC, there was a game where scum Laserguy really went hard after town me, I thought it was Shakespeare III Mafia, but I did a quick skim, and it’s not the game of which I was thinking. Anyway, having dueled with LaserGuy many times previously, I can attest that he can show conviction and stubbornness as any alignment. So while I do not discount your read, it isn’t shifting me from my current LaserGuy read. As always, I reconsider everything with new information (flips and night results). Or should LaserGuy make a massively scummy post before end of day.

 

[ranmaru]

My experience is that Somi tends to be more snarky and off-the-cuff in his commentary as Town, and his posting more polished as mafia. His posting is more consistent with the latter, so I still lean scum. As I said earlier, I was curious if my voting him would lead to a Town-meta comment, but he demurred.

It troubles me somewhat that you don't even try to address the points I made in #275 about that situation being rather different from this one.

 

[ranmaru]

I think LaserGuy gave you a reasonable response in his #256. I have often thought that the Force was strong between LaserGuy and Xivii, and thus do not see it as odd if they employ similar tactics.

What is your take on the above post, in reference to LaserGuy's pressure vote on Somi.

 

[bessie]

Ran, I've been staring at this for like 8 hours and I'm dug in on my somitomi tunnel. I'll take a break for dinner and try to take a fresh unbiased look in an hour.

 

[ranmaru]

Not in his read, but if I understand correctly his vote was based on a meta-expectation of how I'd react to that.

Yes, but irrelevant for bringing up meta in response to my attack on his scumread of you. He first questioned you on not reacting to the vote after his reads list in #252.

 

[Deadbananas]

Current VC for my reference while on phone:
Tattertot - 2 - Ranmaru, Heury alone,
Huery alone- 1 - Deadbananas,
Somitomi - 2 - Laserguy, Bessie
Swiss - 1 - somitomi
Ranmaru - 2 - sabrar, Tattertot
Bessie - 1 - Swiss

I disagree greatly with the Ranmaru wagon. Check my reads list.

Looking over Bessie's Somi case after this post.

I understand the Tattertot case, I'd rather it be Swiss or Heury and I think Heury has a chance as my preferred so I'm sticking there for now, and probably for the day unless something happens in the next few minutes before I gotta head to bed.

I'd urge people to read through my Heury ISO, can't link on my phone but it shouldn't hard to find. I'd also recommend reading Sabrar's and Heury's interactions after Heury came back. I think sabrar did a great job of pointing out the inconsistencies in Heury.

 

[ranmaru]

I'll look at your Heury ISO and reference it in my updated reads list. Which will come later.

 

[Tattertot]

Im fine with either honestly but I do see your points. [Unvote] [vote: heuryalone]

 

[Deadbananas]

I believe the first comment is an error that shows a scum mindset. There are no powers that would blind mafia. All powers in this game could lead to inconclusive results for town.

Would mafia be more aware that they have the better side in this outcome over town? Or do you think somi just hopped in with only a glance at the rules?

His read evolves to a town lean in #306, but without any apparent progression

I missed this, it's a good point.

I also quoted the part where Bessie talked about Somi and Tatterot mate and cat avatar thing but phone said no. What I wanted to say about that was while it's a pairing I can see, I don't think it's internally consistent with your read in Tattertot. Since you mentioned him being coached to not react to RVS, which would have happened when Somi was out.

Overall, I'm not as opposed to Somi as ran, but I would still much rather not. My reads list should have more of my opinion on that.

 

[Deadbananas]

Im fine with either honestly but I do see your points. [Unvote] [vote: heuryalone]

This makes me more uncomfortable tbh. Like I get it might be self-prez, but could you reference what points in specific you thought were good?

 

[Deadbananas]

I'll be back in 30, going to pay for staying up tomorrow so it'll be just looking at the answers to what I've posted and the posts since then and seeing if that changes things for me.

 

[Deadbananas]

Its been a little longer, its late, sorry for missing the posts that will come. I'm comfortable with my current wagon and I think I've presented reasoning for it in my other posts that are better than what I can post before I collapse. I leave it to the Europeans if they wake up then and whoever else is in a better time zone or is a no sleep monster. I hope to see you all next day phase. If not you can find my reads p easily.

 

[ranmaru]

Sabrar, what is your availability for deadline? Will you be around all night?

 

[Sabrar]

Sabrar, what is your availability for deadline? Will you be around all night?

Just woke up. Gonna be around for a couple of hours, then away for two, should be here for the last hour.

 

[bessie]

Tattertot , your votes aren’t in the correct format, and may or may not be counted by the mod (either unintentionally because they are overlooked, or intentionally because they do not follow the rules). Please come back and bold your votes, (1) so that they count, and (2) so that we may be sure of your intent.

Wam osieorb18 , can we get an official vote count?

 

[LaserGuy]

I'm here. Starting to review.

 

[Sabrar]

Unvote

I believe that Swiss should always be the yeet D2 if he's not Vig (barring some pretty unlikely scenarios) and therefore he needs to shoot tonight. I have my doubts regarding ranmaru , I definitely don't support yeeting bessie and DB is town. I generally like LaserGuy and while he proved that he can fool me I don't think he's the right choice today. I'm not a fan of Tattertot's recent vote-switchings but I can't really evaluate him due to unfamiliarity with his style (I've seen too many bad plays from less experienced town-players to take it for granted that this is scum-indicative). somitomi comes off natural, I would have to re-read to look at any case against him. I definitely want to reread Heury.

 

[bessie]

Catch up post, start at #414.

I don't see anything wrong with analyzing the pros or cons as to why someone should be voted, and in this case it happens to be me. Even a mislynch gives us information. Of course we want to vote mafia, but I think a good vote is one that has a good chance of flipping scum, but also gives us enough information if flips town to make it worth the mislynch. For example: I think the tattertot vote is good, because no matter the flip it narrows down the search. Now, Somi, what are the pros you'd say for voting you?

Re underlined. What?? How does this apply specifically to Tattertot when you can say this about any player in the game?


Re #416, Deadbananas , your read lists are just fine. Don’t worry about a thing, you’re gonna be a better player than any of us someday.


ranmaru , I’m still thinking about #446 and #447.

I'd urge people to read through my Heury ISO, can't link on my phone but it shouldn't hard to find. I'd also recommend reading Sabrar's and Heury's interactions after Heury came back. I think sabrar did a great job of pointing out the inconsistencies in Heury.

I’ll try to reread your and Sabrar’s cases, but I’m also thinking that in general, Heury is a very uneven player and inconsistencies are, well, not really that uncommon in his content, regardless of alignment.

Would mafia be more aware that they have the better side in this outcome over town? Or do you think somi just hopped in with only a glance at the rules?

I don’t necessarily think mafia have a better side in this, and I don’t think anyone would draw that conclusion. Reread somitomi’s comment: “At least the firework of everyone using their shots all at once should blind mafia during the night.” I’m having a difficult time seeing his comment as a town role’s evaluation of the setup. If anything it seems more like a careless mafia quick take, from someone that primarily had the vig role in their thoughts, and slipped because they were hurrying and thinking the setup was more powerful for town than it actually is.

I also quoted the part where Bessie talked about Somi and Tatterot mate and cat avatar thing but phone said no. What I wanted to say about that was while it's a pairing I can see, I don't think it's internally consistent with your read in Tattertot. Since you mentioned him being coached to not react to RVS, which would have happened when Somi was out.

The ”coached not to react” applies to specific partners, and doesn’t hold in a somitomi-Tattertot team case. It’s also not relevant to my D1 analysis, because none of the partners to which it could apply are below my BoomFrog line.

 

[Sabrar]

Reread somitomi’s comment: “At least the firework of everyone using their shots all at once should blind mafia during the night.” I’m having a difficult time seeing his comment as a town role’s evaluation of the setup. If anything it seems more like a careless mafia quick take, from someone that primarily had the vig role in their thoughts, and slipped because they were hurrying and thinking the setup was more powerful for town than it actually is.

Disagree, to me it looked like a simple quip, just assuming that all town would use their abilities immediately on N1. I think you're looking too hard at hidden meanings coming from a joke.

 

[bessie]

I believe that Swiss should always be the yeet D2 if he's not Vig (barring some pretty unlikely scenarios) and therefore he needs to shoot tonight.

Why have you not considered that Swiss is mafia that will use the NK and claim vig? You did not cover this possibility in #350.

Disagree, to me it looked like a simple quip, just assuming that all town would use their abilities immediately on N1. I think you're looking too hard at hidden meanings coming from a joke.

I do not necessarily disagree with you, since I often miss others’ jokes, and others often miss mine. But this is not my only point against somitiomi. Have you read the rest of my analysis?

 

[LaserGuy]

Laser did you just do scum partner analysis on someone you townread?

Buddies for Tatter and whether they're coaching him is something that has been discussed for awhile. bessie asked for this specific analysis since I alluded to it in my earlier reads.

LaserGuy I'd like for you to comment on Tattertot's #236. Also curious, do you have any examples for the Somi meta you are referencing?

A couple things I see on this:
-It's interesting to me that Tattertot doesn't seem to have a better understanding of Heury's meta or personality since they've played, if not mafia, then something similar. He mentions he's seen Heury not try as scum before, but it feels like kind of an afterthought and mostly he's taking Heury word for it. Likewise, Heury mentioning in #61 that newbies are hard to read, I mean, yes they are, but they shouldn't be so hard to weird for him in particular. I don't know how well they know each other, but there's a weird kind of distance between them that is hard for me to pin down exactly if it's significant.

Tattertot or HeuryAlone , how much have you played with each other? How well do you know each other outside of mafia?

-His read of you feels very much like newbie Town OMGUS. I've seen this lots of times.

-His read on Swiss feels understandable because most of the players here are using an xkcd-style giant read list meta whereas Swiss is going for a more #HBC shoot-from-the-hip style reads. Doesn't feel significant except maybe in buddy analysis. Then again, Tatter liked Swiss back in #76.

-There's an inconsistency in his Sabrar read in that earlier he said he had a poor impression of Sabrar (#71) but now says he hasn't seen anything.

-He forgot about me entirely which I don't care for.

On the whole, it's not a great post. My general impression is that he isn't analysing in detail, and there's a lot of things that are mistakes, omissions, or inconsistencies. The problem I have with doing in-depth analysis on a new player's posts is lots of times they just don't know what they're doing or how to analyze very well, so these sorts of errors can appear independent of alignment. See, 3DSNinja, for example, or Peaceful Whale back from xkcd. So when reading a new player, I usually try to look for tells that are characteristic of how newbie Town vs. newbie scum behave, rather than try to sort through the newbie weirdness individually. Tattertot is not as clearly as transparent as 3DSN, who was super obviously Town in all of his games in spite of his scummy content, but I haven't seen anything that obviously pings me as definitive newbie scum either. I can see him going either way.


On Somi:


Here's some Town posting from early in TIL mafia:

Spoiler

Vote: Synchronicity
Science has just gone too far and that is a dangerous combination.
Read some random posts and I already feel like I accidentally turned over two pages at once, but we're on page one. This is gonna be fun.

Could you be less cryptic for the benefit of people who don't have access to Bessie's Complete Mafia Archives?

Oh yeah, eliminating someone with zero interactions worked so well for town the last time. Definitely do that again.

How did you know immediately that BoomFrog was scum?

Yeah, but being

Ah, thanks. I made the username connection but I'm absolutely unfamiliar with the community so I had no idea what behavior would embody it.

Well, I've never seen two random vote wagons speed off head to head on page one like it's the DAF Turbo Twin vs. Vatanen's Peugeot 405 T16

No, you didn't, I just genuinely didn't know what you found underwhelming. But then I usually have the opposite problem on D1, there's just too much stuff happening.

Okay, so DH is town because you don't like Gorf throwing shade on him, but Gorf... is also town? Am I missing something?

I'm obviously having some kind of nervous breakdown. I'll just ride it out and see where it takes me, Zelda Fitzgerald style.

Could it be Somitomi and Bessie instead? I'll let you pick the game.

Somi is very chill, snarky, and DGAF how he comes off

This is scum somi from Completely Vanilla over a similar period of time:

Spoiler

All right, let's go.

That's a bit of a risky statement to make right out of the gate. What if you're wrong about it?

Is there some logical gymnasics here that I can't do or is the vote unrelated to the statement preceeding it.

What for? Same goes for Darkpit's free pass.

First thought was "that's pretty blatant rolefishing if I ever saw one". On second thought I don't quite understand what you propose we all claim and how you're going to gain information from it without outing any "useful" PRs we might have?

That doesn't really answer any of my questions:
1) What exact piece of information do you think we should all claim? (It seems like I'm not the only one, who's unclear on this)
2) How would this information be more beneficial to town than to scum?

Me neither, but then there's not much to go on D1.

To be fair, everyone is special (so noone is), but in a scenario where the rest of us were mostly vanilla, I think this would've been a PR slip.

Okay, I really am rusty or dense, maybe both.

I read this yesterday and took it to be a read based on content rather than a game logic thing and it took me an entire day to unstick that from my headspace. I still think it was an oddly hasty call to make on UP's part though.

And I definitely didn't connect the dots here, that information about your role was already out there when you made that remark. Oof.
Now, to read my backlog.

Well, Chaco still makes one out of eight, so that "only you" was definitely a stretch. But even if I was the only one, throwing shade on me for askig to clarify your proposal and avoiding my questions is a bit susp if I'm honest.

I have the same vibes, clouded a bit by OMGUS.

I guess my second question to UP goes out to you as well. How do we stop scum from skating by on falseclaims long enough to endgame town? Especially if we cannot clear anyone from their roles as you say?

Why did Xivii and FF get into the protected club?

In the few games I've played such proposals were instantly nerfed for being risky because mafia can survive on fake claims long enough to get all the power roles. Apparently this game doesn't have any actual power roles, but I'm a little hesitant to bet the game on this (which is why I wanted UP to clarify what bit of information we should claim and how this will be more beneficial to town than to scum) but I'm not going to die on this hill if the majority agrees to do it.

Why did you call out 3DSNinja, but not Mercuri as well?

Holy smokes, lot of pages since I last checked in.
I'm gonna try sum up my impressions, although I feel like it's all based on gutfeels and nothing at this point.
Suspicious
UtopianPoyzin
Xivii
DarkPit
Osieorb (neutral-ish)
FrozenFlame
BoomFrog
Chaco
Cool

Null: mercuri (how is this play not grounds for a policy yeet?)
At this point, UP feels like the best candidate, they have been going back and forth on quite a lot of things, and their posts have this "I'm just kidding, or am I?" vibe that makes it hard to tell if they're serious (and easy for them to back out of things). Overall this doesn't seem like it's helping town.

What if nobody gets to L-1 before the day runs out? I think D1 votes are generally all over the place and I don't see how we could stop that from happening.

Really? I just skimmed the thread a second time to see where that agreement was reached, but I don't see it. Seems like there's still some argument over whether or not some of the roles actually do something. The fact that you pushed Osie to claim right when they jumped in just doesn't sit well with me honestly.

I think I've played about a dozen games so far, almost all of them on the late XKCD forum (we'll miss it forever). For what it's worth, BoomFrog and Xivii have seen me play there.

All business, no jokes, no chit-chat.

 

[Sabrar]

Why have you not considered that Swiss is mafia that will use the NK and claim vig? You did not cover this possibility in #350.

If there is 2 deaths tonight and noone else claims Vig then Swiss is cleared. If there is only 1 death then Swiss is most likely lying because Mafia is not interested in withholding, not interested in shooting the same target as Vig and Doc is unlikely to protect anyone Swiss is shooting. The only real possibility with Vig!Swiss and only 1 death would be someone doctoring the Mafia NK which has a pretty low chance of occurring starting with 39% chance of there even be a town!Doc in the first place and then them guessing correctly.

I do not necessarily disagree with you, since I often miss others’ jokes, and others often miss mine. But this is not my only point against somitiomi. Have you read the rest of my analysis?

My intention was not to dismantle your entire case but to point out something that you brought up on 2 separate occasion and which I read in a different manner. I have read your case, there are other parts where I have a slightly different view. Btw why did you use the word evolve here:
"His read evolves to a town lean in #306, but without any apparent progression."
You already acknowledged that he had a town lean on you, so there was no progression needed:
"In #220 somitomi is the first player to call me out for fluff, but still has me as a town lean. "

 

[ranmaru]

ranmaru , I’m still thinking about #446 and #447.

Thank you. How is that going?

 

[LaserGuy]

I have often thought that the Force was strong between LaserGuy and Xivii, and thus do not see it as odd if they employ similar tactics.

I think it is just strong enough that we can never read each other properly.

IIRC, there was a game where scum Laserguy really went hard after town me, I thought it was Shakespeare III Mafia, but I did a quick skim, and it’s not the game of which I was thinking. Anyway, having dueled with LaserGuy many times previously, I can attest that he can show conviction and stubbornness as any alignment. So while I do not discount your read, it isn’t shifting me from my current LaserGuy read. As always, I reconsider everything with new information (flips and night results). Or should LaserGuy make a massively scummy post before end of day.

Shakespeare is the only game I remember where I went very hard after you when I was mafia. Unless maybe it was one of the Secret Santa games? There was a period of about 3-4 games far early on in my mafia play where I think I tunneled you every game as both Town and scum and then mostly got over it.

It troubles me somewhat that you don't even try to address the points I made in #275 about that situation being rather different from this one.

The context is different, yes, but I don't feel it really changes my expectation of your behaviour. When you're Town, I find you tend to lean into sass a lot more than you do as scum. I was just giving you an opening.

 

[LaserGuy]

Current VC:
Tattertot - 2 - Ranmaru, Heury alone,
Huery alone- 2 - Deadbananas, Tattertot
Somitomi - 2 - Laserguy, Bessie
Swiss - 1 - somitomi
Bessie - 1 - Swiss

Not voting: Sabrar

 

[LaserGuy]

Sabrar , where are you on the lead wagons?

 

[Sabrar]

I'm feeling better on somitomi. I think yeeting Tattertot and Swiss shooting Heury is a good plan.

 

[LaserGuy]

If you move to Tatter I am thinking I might swing over to bury it. Tatter isn't my favourite yeet but I'm not super comfortable leaving Swiss or somi the opportunity to swing it after I go to bed.

 

[Sabrar]

At least the firework of everyone using their shots all at once should blind mafia during the night.

Not yet, I woke up today thinking "dude, you haven't asked Swiss about his Sabrar read", so

Ok, I guess don't even try to answer my question, that's cool.

Hang on a second, is Heury arguing for their own elimination now? What is this world?

See kids, this is what happens when you spend two hours writing one damn post and don't proofread it afterwards. Here's what the rest of that sentence should look like:

These are quotes that to me fall into the 'somi goofing around' category, thereby indicating towniness by your meta-read. Can you quickly link your case on him?

 

[Swiss]

vote somitomi

Frankly tatter needs to do something or die. Going inactive day end is a scum play to me.

Sabrar if you actually think I’m vig I have greatly overestimated you.

 

[LaserGuy]

I didn't do a full case on him.

vote somitomi

Frankly tatter needs to do something or die. Going inactive day end is a scum play to me.

Sabrar if you actually think I’m vig I have greatly overestimated you.

Wait, why are you voting somi here?

 

[Swiss]

Flipping read on Bessie - in bed playing catch up - let me shower grab a coffee then I’m here properly

 

[Sabrar]

Sabrar if you actually think I’m vig I have greatly overestimated you.

If you're false-claiming Vig as town then I have greatly overestimated you.

 

[bessie]

If there is 2 deaths tonight and noone else claims Vig then Swiss is cleared. If there is only 1 death then Swiss is most likely lying because Mafia is not interested in withholding, not interested in shooting the same target as Vig and Doc is unlikely to protect anyone Swiss is shooting. The only real possibility with Vig!Swiss and only 1 death would be someone doctoring the Mafia NK which has a pretty low chance of occurring starting with 39% chance of there even be a town!Doc in the first place and then them guessing correctly.

This is the one of which I was thinking, there is one night kill and mafia!Swiss claims it as the vig kill. So if we have no vig, with one kill there is no way to tell if it was vig or mafia because no counterclaim. Or one kill and one doctor save, irrelevant which was mafia and which was vig because Swiss can still claim vig even with a counterclaim.

My intention was not to dismantle your entire case but to point out something that you brought up on 2 separate occasion and which I read in a different manner. I have read your case, there are other parts where I have a slightly different view. Btw why did you use the word evolve here:
"His read evolves to a town lean in #306, but without any apparent progression."
You already acknowledged that he had a town lean on you, so there was no progression needed:
"In #220 somitomi is the first player to call me out for fluff, but still has me as a town lean. "

In reading somitomi’s posts #220, #275, and #306, his town lean on me seems to strengthen, though is still a lean, not a solid town read. But there is no new information to which he refers that has influenced him.
See also my position in somitomi’s #424, where he again mentions my previous fluffiness, and that my recent posts are expected, but not what that is. I think he was fishing with the early fluff read, and ended up not pursuing it when he didn’t get any support, when he should have actually called me out.

Thank you. How is that going?

I don’t remember the game to which somitomi is referring in #275, either the one where someone (was it him?) was eliminated D1, and the next game where he was snarky about it, though this sounds vaguely familiar so I may have read or perhaps even played them. I’m afraid my recall for Smashboards games is not yet up to the level that it was for xkcd games, for reasons.

If you move to Tatter I am thinking I might swing over to bury it. Tatter isn't my favourite yeet but I'm not super comfortable leaving Swiss or somi the opportunity to swing it after I go to bed.

If you swing to Tattertot, they will reach 4 and be the yeet if there is no hammer. They are my top pick for scum with somitomi, so I don’t object to the yeet. However, I still have the old xkcd mindset and I don’t want a hammer this far before deadline, but I think if I stay on somitomi you won’t need me to switch, because even if Heury gets 4 votes Tattertot will get there first. So I can sign off.


Ninja'd, I’m going to need to sign off regardless, because I need to put in my eye drops, and this will affect my eyesight for about half an hour. I will try to check the thread before deadline. I usually wake up screaming at about 4:30 from my regular nightmare about my work anyway.

 

[LaserGuy]

I don’t remember the game to which somitomi is referring in #275, either the one where someone (was it him?) was eliminated D1, and the next game where he was snarky about it, though this sounds vaguely familiar so I may have read or perhaps even played them. I’m afraid my recall for Smashboards games is not yet up to the level that it was for xkcd games, for reasons.

The game is Completely Vanilla. Somi and FrozenFlame were mafia and swept the game. Town yeeted some inactive player, don't remember their name, not someone we know, on D2 I think and put themselves in a bad LYLO.

 

[LaserGuy]

The game is Completely Vanilla. Somi and FrozenFlame were mafia and swept the game. Town yeeted some inactive player, don't remember their name, not someone we know, on D2 I think and put themselves in a bad LYLO.

EBWOP:
Possible you know of it because Xivii was in that game and I think he felt pretty bad about the loss; the following game you were Synchronicity so it wouldn't surprise me if it came up.