Wam's Chaos Game Thread

[Tattertot]

Ive

So Tattertot , where have you played mafia with Heury before?

Played with him on an game app called Plato which has a game called werewolf which is basically mafia but it's in real time and last 5 minutes.

 

[Tattertot]

I am also curious, you mention DeadBananas is invested in finding clues and answers to who is scum, but I have also done this. Why haven't you mentioned that in your read of me, tattertot?

I didn't mention it because I feel you are more invested in just finding someone to vote versus the reasons to vote someone. If that makes sense. I feel its gotten better and you are focusing more on clues and answers but especially early game it was all about the quick reads and like sabrar said solve the game in one day.

 

[ranmaru]

Tattertot Another question. In your reads list you have LaserGuy missing. Why is that?

 

[Tattertot]

Tattertot Another question. In your reads list you have LaserGuy missing. Why is that?

Opps. I forgot laserguy. Ill put out my read on him tomorrow. Im calling it a night.

 

[ranmaru]

Opps. I forgot laserguy. Ill put out my read on him tomorrow. Im calling it a night.

Why haven't you talked about him in this game yet, and if you had to give a quick read on him, null, town, or mafia?

 

[Tattertot]

Why haven't you talked about him in this game yet, and if you had to give a quick read on him, null, town, or mafia?

Null

 

[ranmaru]

Thanks. No answer to the first part of the question?

 

[ranmaru]

somitomi I am curious what you think of my #233.

 

[bessie]

Sorry I'm too tired and I won't be able to do analysis tonight. Here's where my head is at without a reread.

Woof
bessie
Ranmaru
Deadbananas
LaserGuy
Sabrar
BoomFrog
Swiss
Tattertot
HeuryAlone
somitomi
Grr

 

[ranmaru]

I tried to give Tattertot space, and even tried to reconsider his slot, however his reads list and how he has handled replying to questions has made me reconsider that he is still scum. His #151 seems to show that he doesn't mind me trying hard on the third day, but in his #236 there is no mention of me improving in his eyes. Then in his #242 he walks this back saying he did notice me improving, he just didn't mention it to focus on the part of me looking for someone to vote. I think was also a telling connection to LaserGuy is him not mentioning him in his reads list. I also feel he was trying to cut the conversation short in #244. Feels like he has something to hide when he noticed he forgot to include LaserGuy in his reads list. I believe he is scum, and I no longer believe Swiss is scum. I believe Laser is also associated with Tattertot, and vice versa.

Unvote; Vote: Tattertot

 

[ranmaru]

Hmm... Thinking about this more, this post feels so weirdly innocent that I'm really struggling to see Tattertot saying something like this as scum. Like he doesn't even realize that if he were mafia he would be able to talk with his partner at this point.

Vote: somitomi

I'm not opposed to the heury push, either.

I just want to show this quote again to show a connection between Laser and Tattertot. Remember, Somi had said he'd be catching up in the evening yet Laser skips Tatertot in his POE to vote Somi without first letting him catch up.

 

[LaserGuy]

Just FYI, I'm on holidays between now and next Wednesday so my activity will probably be mostly in the evenings during this time as I'll be doing Spring Break stuff with my boys during the day. Much easier to play mafia when I'm working

Hmm. Reasons? You know that I am always suspicious of a vote without reasons.

I was curious to see if/how he would react. I was ideally looking to incite a comment like this:

LaserGuy: I really want a game where I can finally trust him fully, but it keeps eluding me. His content is reasonable and I like most of his reads, however his scum-reads seem to lack conviction that I would expect.

This game hasn't been particularly spicy so far. I have not had any particularly strong scumpings, so I'm working with what I have.

1) Not much really. Off the top of my head, I think Swiss wasn't very heplful in his repsonses to Sabrar and Tattertot's innocently weird posts just feel like innocently weird posts.

Speaking of which, why didn't feel the need to comment on my vote on you?

As usual I don't feel particularly confident and my townreads are essentially based on not finding anything suspicious there, but here's where I'm at right now with some notes.
=neutral line=
Tattertot: innocently weird in a way that I can't really place yet. It seems fairly clear they're not being coached, but I'm not sure that's a surefire town indicator.

This seems to be heavily paraphrased from my reads. Did you come up with these ideas on your own from your evaluation? Why does "innocently weird' translate into nullscum?

LaserGuy could you explain your progression on Heury for me? or if I missed it link me to it.

My progression is essentially outlined in my read on him... I got a townie meta ping from his early content. Then I kind of forgot about him because he wasn't around. On review, I found less to like and more to dislike. And many other players have since become townier, so Heury's relative position looks worse.

Ok. So you don’t see scum!Tattertot being regularly coached by an experienced partner for the avatar thing. But that doesn’t eliminate all the other players in this game. Also, on point number two, are you also eliminating all the other players in this game from that pool?

I think the possible partners for Tattertot are basically somi or Swiss. If Tatter is scum with someone outside of those pairings, I would be very surprised.

I'll get to Ranmaru's stuff in the next post.

 

[Sabrar]

and I no longer believe Swiss is scum.

Which part of your case on Swiss became invalidated due to Tattertot's replies and why?

 

[ranmaru]

The whole thing when I believe both Laser and Tattertot are scum individually and via association. I could only think that Swiss would be Lazy Town in this case. Still having a stagnant play and not playing the best to find the optimal lynch. There can only be two scum.

 

[LaserGuy]

EBWOP:

I noticed this quote got kind of garbled and something was cut out in my post. This is how it should have read:

Hmm. Reasons? You know that I am always suspicious of a vote without reasons.

I was curious to see if/how he would react. I was ideally looking to incite a comment like this:

Oh yeah, eliminating someone with zero interactions worked so well for town the last time. Definitely do that again.

Snark from somitomi is good to see. No response to my vote and the uninspiring wooden responses we've seen otherwise is not so good.

LaserGuy: I really want a game where I can finally trust him fully, but it keeps eluding me. His content is reasonable and I like most of his reads, however his scum-reads seem to lack conviction that I would expect.

This game hasn't been particularly spicy so far. I have not had any particularly strong scumpings, so I'm working with what I have.

Stuff from Ran to follow momentarily.

 

[LaserGuy]

He has a POE of Swiss, Tattertot, and Somi. The intent for that post seems off when he has yet to re-read entirely, and since Somi has been catching up, it doesn't make sense for him to vote there at this time, unless to ensure there is no support for Tot at all. I think how you are handling it is just fine.

My post in #178 was my reflection based off of DeadBananas #172. My progression here is pretty straightforward. I unvoted Swiss in #174, spent some time thinking about Tattertot, decided he was probably not mafia, and voted somitomi instead.

However, I don't think it would make sense for Somi!Scum to ask about Heury!Scum when Heury seems to have been absent for quite some time, I'm sure he'd notice and try not to create such a blatant connection.

I don't agree with this. When I was scum with Malakandra in SS mafia, Xivii documented probably 50 occasions where Malakandra did exactly this sort of thing to for me. Neither of us ever noticed until it was brought to our attention. I think this type of connection is very easy to overlook because the player doesn't think of it as an explicit defense, just a question or commentary on something.

LaserGuy - I think Laser's #178 is a scum post. It shows he cares more about his positioning rather than actually sorting Somi. It is apparent that his intention was to skip support of Tattertot's wagon since he was in his POE. We can see this as he's pre-maturely voting Somi at a point where Tattertot had 0 votes, and Somi just started catching up.

My intention to vote somi was to provoke him. I have a hard time believing that you have played so many games with Xivii and have never seen a naked vote used in this manner before. At the time my PoE was also quite tight so I felt somitomi had a decent chance of being a hit anyway, but I had no illusions of starting a wagon on him at this stage.

I agree with Sabrar's #212 that Laser isn't showing any conviction, and this is the most important quality to reading LaserGuy, rather than how reasonable he seems. LaserGuy has the ability to be reasonable and also give good reads on players that he believes are town (as scum) yet I believe that hurts himself since he has to fake scumreads. It is more apparent when he has no conviction. Consistently, if you see LaserGuy actually be obvious town and full of confidence, you have a better chance at determining him as town. I also think his scumlean on Somi is a little un-fair, and pre-mature.

Your meta read on me here assumes that I play essentially the same way every game I play Town. This is incorrect. Even when I try to play the same way, it usually doesn't work out that way. SS mafia I was basically a universal townread and was NKed D1--and I was playing in that particular style with the intention of drawing the NK. TIL I had some players townreading me and some scumreading me for quite awhile, and was eventually flashyeeted D3. Apex I was widely scumread and was yeeted D1 despite rock-solid PR claim. You're looking at a single game in isolation and assuming that the same behaviour exists in all of my games. It doesn't.

TBH, your repeated defense of somi here kind of feels like a chainsaw to me.

I believe Laser is also associated with Tattertot, and vice versa.

I feel kind of offended that you think I would let Tattertot make so many rookie mistakes if we were mafia together.

 

[ranmaru]

You voted Somi instead of Tattertot, who was at 0 votes. Shows you don't actually want to commit. It would make more sense if you reached that conclusion naturally. (After re-reading and making a reads list after Somi catches up)

On the confidence point, that is not the only town game I have seen that confidence from. Pretty sure I saw it in the crossover as well.

 

[ranmaru]

I think two questions is too weak of a connection when you mention In your game with Mala there were 50 occasions. I feel I could see your point if there were more. Yet I find lack of interaction more telling, and lack of commitment. I also find that your somi scum lean is unfair.

 

[Swiss]

Ranmaru you lied to me

 

[LaserGuy]

You voted Somi instead of Tattertot, who was at 0 votes. Shows you don't actually want to commit. It would make more sense if you reached that conclusion naturally. (After re-reading and making a reads list after Somi catches up)

Commit to what? Why would I vote for someone that I don't think is mafia?

Whether or not Tattertot was being coached was something that was being discussed in thread at the time, so that's what I was thinking about. The context of that comment is pretty clear. Also, you were the one who asked me for a reads list in #176, before somi had the chance to catch up, and are now claiming you find it suspicious that I did what you asked of me.

On the confidence point, that is not the only town game I have seen that confidence from. Pretty sure I saw it in the crossover as well.

I'm sure there are plenty of examples of this. I'm not saying it's entirely wrong, just incomplete, and is therefore unlikely to produce accurate reads of me.

I think two questions is too weak of a connection when you mention In your game with Mala there were 50 occasions. I feel I could see your point if there were more. Yet I find lack of interaction more telling, and lack of commitment. I also find that your somi scum lean is unfair.

I am not scumreading somitomi because of his possible association with heury, though I do find that interesting in the event either of them flips red. I'm evaluating him based on the lacklustre nature of his content so far.

But regardless, I don't see what fairness has to do with anything. I don't try to be fair in evaluating people. I try to be right. In Apex mafia I read bessie as mafia, correctly, off of a single post on page 1. I did the same for z25 in SS mafia. If I can figure out someone's alignment based off of minimal information, so much the better as it means I can focus more of my attention on people who are ambiguous.

 

[ranmaru]

I am saying that #178 shouldn't have come before your reads list at all. I am saying if it came after, having seen Somi's catch up, it would make more sense as you had time to process and it wouldn't be pre-mature. Giving me the reads list in itself wasn't a problem and I never said that.

 

[ranmaru]

I find un-fair reads to not actually focus on accuracy. You mentioned lack luster play and I don't think that is enough to justify a scum lean.

 

[somitomi]

Would you say you are ready to vote then?

Not yet, I woke up today thinking "dude, you haven't asked Swiss about his Sabrar read", so
Swiss Can you talk a little bit about why you disliked Sabrar's first post or why him talking about how he plays as mafia is such a red flag?

 

[Swiss]

DeadBananas
Bessie
Laserguy
Sabrar
Tattertot
Ranmaru
Somitomi
HueryAlone
Swiss


#171 Tattertor obv town

#173 laserguy you'll love me, you get one every day
yeah yeah sabar town

#178 + laser for townreading tater

#179 Ran lowering means lowering the sus level, or lowering your 'read' of him?

#180 empty by Somi

#181 Ran why Tatter

#182 DB mindmeld

#184 Bizarre Somi doesnt like my post when it is me who didn't want the fight with Sabrar. He was busy peacocking in front of all his little friends

#185 holy **** ran drop the avvy stuff

#187 I like Bessie. I do. But why does such a large post have absolutely zero content in it. -ve

#192 I love me

ranmaru was your #202 you asking me to go indepth on you after my offer? I misread

#213 I like + Somi overall dislike Somi

#216 Comes from a good place, best I can say. Skipping it

#219 Sabrar good

#220 Hello Somi good eyes re: bessie
Ignore my push on Sabrar, but I like the description of blithely. Made me smile irl

#222 DB good post.

#223 "

#227 ranmaru I mean half your case is meta so I'm not sure why you want me commentign on this but. FWIW
I have Laser as a townlean, but over a glass of wine last night I was thinking, if I'm wrong on anyone it's him. But Bessie has taken that spot over, partly.
I don't see #178 as a scum post

#229 DB doesn't jump in Ran's case, which I like.

#231 Deadbananas but @ everyone, my in depth thoughts are in daily catch up posts. My reads list, is my reads list, which is for your clarity. Don't be lazy
Anyway I am so town so lamist doesn't apply
Overall keeping Db high on reads

#235 Another empty Bessie post

#236 I don't think Tater scum calls me scum when I'm defending him, so like Tater
Also he must have missed my brightly coloured reads as he said I hadn't put out reads

#250 Again so bad it has to be town

Sabrar your content is falling off, more of it please

#254 Man you know my timezones and activity. Stop being dense

DeadBananas
Tattertot
Sabrar
Laserguy
Ranmaru
Somitomi
Bessie
HueryAlone
Swiss

 

[Swiss]

Not yet, I woke up today thinking "dude, you haven't asked Swiss about his Sabrar read", so
Swiss Can you talk a little bit about why you disliked Sabrar's first post or why him talking about how he plays as mafia is such a red flag?

#18 tone read


#27 Sabrar telling us how he plays as scum, classic trick by scum to then play differently.
" I'm more often obv!Town when actually Town and just skate by on the sidelines when scum "

Not sure how else I can word this for someone to understand it

 

[Swiss]

And Ran when I said you lied to me, it's because you said you've improved.

 

[ranmaru]

I knew that was what you were going to say and you can save that for post game. I am always open to critique and you know that.

 

[Swiss]

In post game I prefer to spend my time being lauded, such examples include:

"Wow Swiss I can't believe you faked being vig when you were mafia all this time, what an incredible gambit" - Ranmaru
"Swiss man, I'm sorry for having attitude, I see now that Ryker is an American you" - Sabrar
"I'm sorry I read Bessie wrong" - Most of the lobby

 

[Sabrar]

Sabrar your content is falling off, more of it please

I am disinclined to acquiesce to your request as you continue to blatantly ignore me.

 

[HeuryAlone]

What on earth is this cat and dog thing.

Something you should look into.

I didnt worry because I expected some votes since Im new

Why does being new cause you to expect votes? Do you expect to be more easily found out by being new? Don't see how a town player would have this mindset.

I think now is a good time to give that answer.

I'm going to vig shoot Heury Alone tonight if he survives the day btw

This is why I support Sabrar in "yeeting" swiss, which for me clears Sabrar.

tatterrot admitted they made a cat profile because they wanted to crumb that they’re town

this is their first game right?

tell me how anyone here can scum read that

Somitomi who
5) Heury Alone eh
6) Ranmaru eh
7) tattertot town
8) Deadbananas town
9) Swiss werewolf

The more I read the more I am inclined to vote tattertot. As mafia, it clears ranmaru, dead banana, and more recently due to post 85,laser guy. I don't think laser guy would bus a newbie this early either. And then would take a serious look at swiss for d2. Unless I die then I guess that clears them.

The below quotes gave me a strong impression that Tattertot was only new to the online form of Mafia, not the game in general.

I can answer to this. I invited tattertot to play this mafia game, and I believe it's their first forum mafia game, but I've played with them online in other groups in mini werewolf games.

HeuryAlone

Better get content out fast or you're brown bread

I hope I'm the heel.

Grrr accidentally deleted the 2nd half of this post and final analysis, so gonna do a quick summary cuz I'm tired.

Town
Ranmaru
Sabrar
Bessie
Deadbanana
Laserguy

Null
Swiss
Somitomi

Scum
Tattertot

Tattertot is still my vote for today. Have seen enough contradictions and enough backseat gaming to warrant for a d1 lynch here. And I think we get the most Intel from the flip. By process of elimination I believe swiss prime somi would be their scum partner, leaning on somi for now. (Swiss, if you're vig, I'd recommend somi). If tot is town, then I'd want to take a closer look at laserguy. I like their posts and points, but in my experience laserguy tries hard as mafia to not be in the spotlight yet be present in the sidelines, and that may be happening here. I am satisfied with their content thusfar.

VOTE: TATTERTOT

 

[HeuryAlone]

Ranmaru no matter the flip is my top town read. I like the eager pushiness thusfar d1. Bessie moved above on the town read based on how happy Bessie sounds. A town Bessie is a happy bessie.

 

[Sabrar]

I'm going to vig shoot Heury Alone tonight if he survives the day btw

This is why I support Sabrar in "yeeting" swiss, which for me clears Sabrar.

Swiss said that in #115. You 'cleared' me in #32. Get your timelines right.

 

[Sabrar]

Unvote
Vote: HeuryAlone

L-2 by my last count

 

[ranmaru]

somitomi Let me know your thoughts on #233. I also want to see a vote from you.

 

[somitomi]

bad in this case as scummy, or not town behavior. Not about what you think makes it a bad thing to do. Sorry if that was obvious, but I'm trying to separate bad and mafia since I have a bad habit as reading good players as town and not considering ultimate alignment views.

Good question and one that prompted me to think about my townreads a bit, because that side is usually more gut-feely (especially on D1) and I often have a hard time deciding on an order or justifying it even to myself. It pushes her towards the non-town end because her posting isn't low in volume by bessie standards so if I'm not finding substance there, then some of it's fluff. And while bessie's not above fluff, I thoguht there was a little too much of it here.

was slightly active in the beging but has kinda dropped off the map. He said if hes mafia he tends not to try very hard which is something I have seen in his games before so maybe its true for this game or maybe not but its something to consider. He also left soon after his post on why he thinks I am scum and then left which makes me suspicious one because it was my name and two it seems to me like a post to stir things and them let them grow from there which is exactly what happened thanks to ranmaru ranmaru

Since you reiterated your point involving heury's self-description, could you answer this please? I'm also curious why heury talking about you specifically makes you more suspicious than if it was somebody else.

somitomi I am curious what you think of my #233.

To me that vote read as "Good, you're here, now do something", so it's not actually all that weird that the vote happened after I showed up.

This seems to be heavily paraphrased from my reads. Did you come up with these ideas on your own from your evaluation?

Yes.

Why does "innocently weird' translate into nullscum?

Innocently weird alone gets a nullread, but Tattertot seems to cherry-pick the questions they respond to and has delayed posting reads at least once which give the weirdness a slight scumlean.

Snark from somitomi is good to see. No response to my vote and the uninspiring wooden responses we've seen otherwise is not so good.

If my memory serves, that was shortly after a game in which town eliminated someone with basically no interactions on D1 and then lost. Naturally that game was fairly fresh in my memory, hence the sass. Also, that was my reaction to four votes (out of seven) and an explicit suggestion to hammer, not a single vote which didn't get much momentum afterwards. I took this one as an attempt to pressure and apparently it didn't bother me much.

#27 Sabrar telling us how he plays as scum, classic trick by scum to then play differently.
" I'm more often obv!Town when actually Town and just skate by on the sidelines when scum "

Not sure how else I can word this for someone to understand it

Okay, I'm gonna ask this directly then: why didn't you have the same level of suspicion towards heury, who (at that point) seemed to do the same?

Ninja'd by several posts

 

[Swiss]

^ Probably did,

I'm sure I called HeuryAlone out in his first post. He's the only person I've voted

 

[Swiss]

Noone gonna comment on my Bessie sus.

Huh

 

[Sabrar]

I'm sure I called HeuryAlone out in his first post. He's the only person I've voted

LOL

 

[Swiss]

^ Knew you were hung up on that

 

[Swiss]

So anyway Sabrar where's that content @