Data Wah Wah Wah : The Wario Matchup thread

[Ssbm_Jag]

I think Wario/Robin is close to even. Dath beats all the Wario's in his region, but he's slightly ranked higher than all of them, meaning he's better at fighting other characters in his region. Dath also abuses autocancel f-air -->retreating fast fall-->jab and Wario I'd imagine would have trouble punishing this.

Bayonetta seems to be fine for Wario, but I can't imagine Bayonetta losing to Wario.

Lucario is a hard one. Day has told me he thinks Wario destroys Lucario, but he says that about a lot of MUs despite my thinking Lucario is a very good character due to his solid performance. I think it's around even. Lucario's that roll a lot and camp aura sphere can give Wario trouble. That being said, Wario can take Lucario out before he reaches rage+aura, but if you mess up waft, have fun overextending to get the KO, because Lucarios play very safe. With moderate aura, Wario can get aura sphere cancelled+u-smashed and lose a stock at 50%.

Aside from that, be careful when you say a MU is 60:40. That's not too far off from abysmal (65:35). Megaman/Wario is likely not 60:40, but it could very likely be in Wario's favor. I think Wario doesn't really have extremely good/bad MU's in this game. I think the main problem is Wario being too honest of a character and his requirement of ludicrous amounts of MU knowledge for most characters. He is by far the character who can be played on tilt the least in smash 4, since his neutral is good only if you understand the opponent's neutral and can predict how the opponent is going to play. Wario is completely doable for Megaman if the player knows the MU which is why I don't really like ratios. Also, I don't think Diddy Kong is too bad for Wario, but he is so hard to play against especially since Diddy can be played 100 different ways.

 

[Poisonous]

I'd assume Dath has experience with Black Guy Gamer and Lord Frieza. I'm inexperienced in the MU personally, but I remember seeing a tournament with Dath and Frieza in bracket where Dath knocked Frieza into losers, Frieza reset the bracket in GF and lost 2-3 in the second set of GF. The games were generally very close, no one really dominated the series. The MU was played fairly slowly as neither side wished to approach, but both characters benefited from such. We have to be weary of Robin's books/levin sword as a projectile too, don't forget about them. We can eat them however, but throwing out chomp isn't wise as he can punish the endlag with the book if you chomped preemptively. We out mobilize Robin easily, but have to watch out for his/her projectiles as they have a lot of stage control. Off stage, we have an advantage as Robin lacks a hitbox above him/her. I feel like the MU is most likely 50/50.


Wario vs Lucario is interesting, the MU has multiple stages imo - Everything I say is based off of personal experience, I'd like input from others because my thoughts will likely differ from yours!

At the start of the match (0-80%):

Lucario has a bunch of combos, almost no kill power, and low damage output per move. He can link his moves fairly well and get nice strings, but is isn't very threatening. We should probably try and take the match slowly here to gain waft. At this stage, we're at an advantage. Lucario's mobility is average at best without large hitboxes at this point, we should try and stay mobile and avoid getting grabbed which sets off his low % combos without aura. Ideally, we should be out damaging him at this stage in the match (try and stay below 50% and have at the very least half waft).

Mid stock (80-110%)

At this point, Lucario has decent kill power. His Uair and Bair are deceptively strong and he can combo a smash off of his wave bounced aura sphere, something we should look out for as it is a decent movement option for him. His bair at this stage should be avoided at all costs near the ledge. We should be looking to close the stock out asap, even if it means using Waft. We don't want to let Lucario get too much Aura+Rage or things get very hairy. We can intercept his recovery with dair offstage and bike+waft at ledge. The startup on it is slow, so it lets us time our interception fairly easily (the hitbox doesn't appear until the end of the move). Letting him continue past this range gives him immense power and more range on a few of his aura based moves.

Going to preface the next bit as the part where I personally struggle
Late stock (110-150%)

We're in a bad spot, most of his moves kill us at 100% at this point. Bair/Uair can kill at 50-60 here, if he gets the first stock and we let him live this high, we're in trouble. Regardless, you can't be impatient when ending his stock. We have a kill throw and waft, don't be risky here or you will get punished. He has his own command grab that will kill you early, so sitting in shield doesn't work. I generally try and space myself out of his moves, some Lucarios become content just chucking aura spheres at you if you don't approach them. They're easy to avoid, but they're still somewhat threatening. I usually look for a throw off stage and a back air/down air interception to finish the stock off.

Stock 2

If you took the first stock, you're in a fantastic position. The only moves he has that will kill you at this point are his smashes and back air, avoid those and you're fine. I try and camp for waft as I'm out of range for his follow ups here usually and my own more reliable follow ups will be working soon. Even if he took the first stock, if you managed to close out his second stock then you're fine. Camp for waft and try your hardest to lay one of him imo. Waft is even more influential in this MU because he generally lacks safe on shield moves from my experiences. Half waft is generally used more in this MU to close out stocks before he gets too much aura.

That was pretty generalized and might sound silly, but I kind of jumbled how I'm thinking during each section of the game vs Lucario.

I lack exp vs Bayo again, so I'll keep quiet here.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Just a couple things Poisonous . Lucario can play pretty safe on shield as I'm pretty sure his moves become safer with aura. Aura=damage boost=shield stun boost. Secondly, Aura sphere is harder to avoid than you might think. Across the stage it's not a big deal, but no good Lucario is going to really just chuck aura spheres across the stage. I've seen Day get too many people with Aura sphere mid-range and on platforms to think it's easy to deal with. It can break shields and many times catch you if you try to spot-dodge, roll, and jump.

We're in a bad spot, most of his moves kill us at 100% at this point. Bair/Uair can kill at 50-60 here, if he gets the first stock and we let him live this high, we're in trouble. Regardless, you can't be impatient when ending his stock.

Keep in mind, Lucario might choose to play campy at this point, in which case his damage output will be outrageous. One could argue that going to extreme measures to take a stock might be costly to Wario, but one could also argue that if two characters are fighting each other defensively, the one trying to tack on small bits of damage (Lucario) will be way more successful than the one just trying to seal a KO (Wario).
This really comes down to the dilemma, should Wario try to finish the game at high % on last stock with a max rage waft (meaning you can't take Lucario's first stock with waft), should he try to take back the game with a comeback that assumes never landing a waft and only waft when an obvious guaranteed opportunity presents itself (might use waft, depends on how safe the opponent plays), or wasting waft early on a read to take the stock and possibly living long enough to waft again? I think this is an interesting conversation for the competitive discussion, but ultimately depends on the player. I think for Lucario though, the third approach is best as you want him off of rage+aura asap and could potentially camp for waft while he's at low %/less threatening on his last stock. At high-level play, scenario 2 is rare as most players only choose safe options, especially when ahead.

I *personally* feel Wario does not have any fantastic waft set-ups at high level play, where people know Wario's Waft confirms, but I tend to give my opponents a lot of credit. A good Lucario can easily avoid all of Wario's waft set-ups (even bike at ledge, as he can circle around it). I think falling U-air and N-air to be the best for set-ups in terms of approach, while bike/d-air/U-tilt/f-air to be the worst. I think the best approach over any true combo is getting a random read waft, and that is dependent on the Wario's+opponent's MU knowledge and skill level.

A lot of people, especially including Lucario mains, use theory in deciding Lucario's match-ups, but Lucario as a character in theory is trash compared to other characters. Everyone says/thinks their character beats Lucario (and I'm not saying you're saying this), because Lucario has terrible frame data, range, and mobility, but as a great smasher once told me, frame data means nothing until you see how the character actually plays (aka Bayonetta/Cloud).

 

[pikazz]

is basically Combo Food for
Wario has the Size, The Weight and the Air Mobility for Bayonetta in that term that our combos will work both early and late for damage dealing and for Killing.
Bayonetta kills Warios Bike Approach with Bullet Climax, 4-8 hits or one Charged one will make wario pop out from his bike making it useless.
Wario can use his Bite to nullify many approaches and so much more, but Bayonetta doesnt really care of his Bite with Downangle Afterburner Kick.

however, Wario can still kill bayonetta as He has better killing with killmoves thats are faster than Bayonettas Killmoves (excluding Bayo BAir) and since Bayonetta is quite light, Wario can kill her easy with proper read and setups.

for Wario to win over Bayonetta is to endure the pressure Bayo is creating, playing safe and outsmart her.

but my personal opinion its atleast 60-40 for , 65-35 at worst

 

[Poisonous]

Just a couple things Poisonous . Lucario can play pretty safe on shield as I'm pretty sure his moves become safer with aura. Aura=damage boost=shield stun boost. Secondly, Aura sphere is harder to avoid than you might think. Across the stage it's not a big deal, but no good Lucario is going to really just chuck aura spheres across the stage. I've seen Day get too many people with Aura sphere mid-range and on platforms to think it's easy to deal with. It can break shields and many times catch you if you try to spot-dodge, roll, and jump.



Keep in mind, Lucario might choose to play campy at this point, in which case his damage output will be outrageous. One could argue that going to extreme measures to take a stock might be costly to Wario, but one could also argue that if two characters are fighting each other defensively, the one trying to tack on small bits of damage (Lucario) will be way more successful than the one just trying to seal a KO (Wario).
This really comes down to the dilemma, should Wario try to finish the game at high % on last stock with a max rage waft (meaning you can't take Lucario's first stock with waft), should he try to take back the game with a comeback that assumes never landing a waft and only waft when an obvious guaranteed opportunity presents itself (might use waft, depends on how safe the opponent plays), or wasting waft early on a read to take the stock and possibly living long enough to waft again? I think this is an interesting conversation for the competitive discussion, but ultimately depends on the player. I think for Lucario though, the third approach is best as you want him off of rage+aura asap and could potentially camp for waft while he's at low %/less threatening on his last stock. At high-level play, scenario 2 is rare as most players only choose safe options, especially when ahead.

I *personally* feel Wario does not have any fantastic waft set-ups at high level play, where people know Wario's Waft confirms, but I tend to give my opponents a lot of credit. A good Lucario can easily avoid all of Wario's waft set-ups (even bike at ledge, as he can circle around it). I think falling U-air and N-air to be the best for set-ups in terms of approach, while bike/d-air/U-tilt/f-air to be the worst. I think the best approach over any true combo is getting a random read waft, and that is dependent on the Wario's+opponent's MU knowledge and skill level.

A lot of people, especially including Lucario mains, use theory in deciding Lucario's match-ups, but Lucario as a character in theory is trash compared to other characters. Everyone says/thinks their character beats Lucario (and I'm not saying you're saying this), because Lucario has terrible frame data, range, and mobility, but as a great smasher once told me, frame data means nothing until you see how the character actually plays (aka Bayonetta/Cloud).

You're right, Lucario's moves do become safer on shield as the game progresses, my bad. The point you rose is where I run into a dilemma myself and is why I wanted input from others. If we let Lucario take the lead, things get hairy if he pulls back and plays campy. Aura Sphere, whilst it's no Needle Storm or Banana, is a decent projectile that puts a bit of pressure on us. He gains more range on a few of his moves and whilst we do out mobilize him, his air speed isn't bad per-say. My personal opinion is that yes, we should try to close the first stock out with a waft, even if he is beyond 100%. It might seem like a bit of a waste, but the hassle of dealing with Aura+Rage is not worth it and puts us in a bad position. I think we should be waiting early game whilst we, in my humble opinion, have a sizable advantage. We should camp him out for the beginning of the game to charge waft whilst harassing him slightly. If he becomes content hurling Aura Spheres at us, we should use this to charge Waft. Closing out the first stock gives us the leisure to choose the pace of the match as we can run away for Waft without being scared of dying really with him under 50%.

You're right on the topic of Waft setups, they aren't going to be easy to get at high level play when people are aware of them; however, nair is still a frame 4 move and upair is safe on shield I believe. Lucario has a decent standing height which might make learning falling uair more valuable in this MU. As a slightly heavy char, we should be able to pull off nair to waft a tiny bit longer than on other characters too. I guess some things to note for wafting vs Lucario:
OoS we can Waft the following moves, even with Aura: Jab (1,2,3), Dash Attack, U-tilt
His smashes are unsafe as well, but I'm unable to test if we can still waft after our shield is pushed back.

Lucario can mitigate our bike-waft setup by going high, but he might still get hit by the "headbutt" of the waft and it also forces a 50/50. If we bluff the waft and he goes high, he's dead. We can even punish the landing with a smash attack and save the waft. Dair would also be valuable when edge guarding him. I believe once we get him offstage, we're have an advantage (as we usually do offstage imo). Due to the slow startup of his Extremespeed, it might be possible to chase him offstage and wait until he commits to it before wafting (on reaction) as well* (requires testing, just a passing thought).

This is a really weird MU that is constantly fluctuating throughout the entirety of the match. I can't put a ratio on it, there are points of the match where both characters have an advantage and it's dependent on how early we can knock out Lucario.

is basically Combo Food for
Wario has the Size, The Weight and the Air Mobility for Bayonetta in that term that our combos will work both early and late for damage dealing and for Killing.
Bayonetta kills Warios Bike Approach with Bullet Climax, 4-8 hits or one Charged one will make wario pop out from his bike making it useless.
Wario can use his Bite to nullify many approaches and so much more, but Bayonetta doesnt really care of his Bite with Downangle Afterburner Kick.

however, Wario can still kill bayonetta as He has better killing with killmoves thats are faster than Bayonettas Killmoves (excluding Bayo BAir) and since Bayonetta is quite light, Wario can kill her easy with proper read and setups.

for Wario to win over Bayonetta is to endure the pressure Bayo is creating, playing safe and outsmart her.

but my personal opinion its atleast 60-40 for , 65-35 at worst

I'm interested in how the neutral would play out for this MU, Wario as a character inherently has the advantage when the gamestate is still. We can avoid your bullet arts without approaching due to our aerial mobility which forces the Bayo to approach which afaik is not her strong suit. We have no legitimate grab followups, but we do get a hefty amount of damage off our up-throw (11%, equivalent to a diddy upthrow upair I think), a command grab in Chomp to catch Witch Time, and a powerful kill throw. Due to Wario's weight, we also live for quite a while which means as long as we avoid a 0-death, we should be fine. Up-Tilt catches Bayo's dive kick and aerial approaches for the most part I believe.

We have to watch out for your Up-B OoS, Witch Time, and your Bair as they are all powerful tools, but I think Wario as a character has sufficient tools to make this MU even. I can't see the MU being anywhere near 35:65 in Bayo's favor. If we can legitimately DI out of the 0-death's I could see Wario doing very well in the MU.

 

[pikazz]

I'm interested in how the neutral would play out for this MU, Wario as a character inherently has the advantage when the gamestate is still. We can avoid your bullet arts without approaching due to our aerial mobility which forces the Bayo to approach which afaik is not her strong suit. We have no legitimate grab followups, but we do get a hefty amount of damage off our up-throw (11%, equivalent to a diddy upthrow upair I think), a command grab in Chomp to catch Witch Time, and a powerful kill throw. Due to Wario's weight, we also live for quite a while which means as long as we avoid a 0-death, we should be fine. Up-Tilt catches Bayo's dive kick and aerial approaches for the most part I believe.

We have to watch out for your Up-B OoS, Witch Time, and your Bair as they are all powerful tools, but I think Wario as a character has sufficient tools to make this MU even. I can't see the MU being anywhere near 35:65 in Bayo's favor. If we can legitimately DI out of the 0-death's I could see Wario doing very well in the MU.

Bayonetta do have a good neutral, she can NAir BA with almost no landing lag for chipping some damage, Bullet Climax against Warios Bike/Aerial Approaches or DTilt BA if he stands still.
Wario need to either handle the pressure or pressure Bayonetta more than Bayonetta herself can handle! the only problem for Wario is that Bayonetta is one of the best punisher there is! one unsafe move on shield or a whiffed move and he will eat a heavy combo for breakfast!

and lol, now when I am seeing the "favors", I do agree I was wrong:

60/40 for Bayonetta at Best, 50/50 at Worst

 

[xIvan321]

l Megaman/Wario is likely not 60:40, but it could very likely be in Wario's favor. I think Wario doesn't really have extremely good/bad MU's in this game. I think the main problem is Wario being too honest of a character and his requirement of ludicrous amounts of MU knowledge for most characters. He is by far the character who can be played on tilt the least in smash 4, since his neutral is good only if you understand the opponent's neutral and can predict how the opponent is going to play. Wario is completely doable for Megaman if the player knows the MU which is why I don't really like ratios.

I agree about it not being 60:40, Wario still has a fighting chance, but against the more technical Mega Man, those types won't care about your bite/bike move. (which can be hard to deal with when you're new to this MU.) Metal Blade and Leaf Shield are both more than the right tools to take Wario on the ground until he uses aerial moves which even then its possible to punish certain ones either on shield or generally anti-air. However also take into account my previous post, I do acknowledge Wario's strengths. In my experience I've played the Wario MU a lot of times and it could likely be more even, but I see more reasons it could be slightly advantageous for us. Its waft that could ultimately be a bigger threat which tends to save Wario from ever being behind, which is why its so outrageous to think its a 60:40.

And on the subject of least played characters; welcome to my world. TBH I think Wario boards have the meta more developed and are more helpful compared to ours. There are only very, VERY, few Mega Man players who are actually good and trying to find decent advice for Mega Man is really tough because you are stuck with the majority who are still learning the curves, leaving only the most hardcore main-ers stuck with figuring stuff on our own. I hate to be the barer of bad news but its true. Most people pick up the character only to drop a week later due to how awkward he may feel. There's a lot you can do with him, but my point is this: in comparison Wario should be easier to pick up due to how much more honest he is, and I'll leave it at that.

PM me if you'd like to respond because I'd hate to derail this thread even more. (makes me uncomfortable) We are weeks old from this and the MU discussion didn't even get that far honestly, so that should say a lot about us.

 

[Axel311]

I say let's move to and ;3

I feel like Wario has a small advantage over Robin. She has good zoning and strong aerials but Wario is way ahead in mobility. I feel like at top level Wario will be able to get in, Robin's mobility is just too slow and her spam is too laggy. I think at top level this will be the deciding factor. Neutral is almost all fair and bite. Pressure and find openings. If you have a good lead she's also really easy to time out because of her terrible mobility. Wario also can edgeguard her well, dair has priority over her Up B.

As far as Bayo, she's so broken right now that she beats almost the whole cast by quite a bit with a couple high tier exceptions, Wario not being one of them. She's the best character in the game IMO. Her risk/reward ratio is ridiculously skewed on her favor when it comes to her combo starters, witch time and combo game in general. She can fish safely in neutral with side B and there's not much Wario can do about it except for shield. I have experience against an excellent Bayo, it's not pretty to play a Bayo that knows the combos/DI and is capable of killing you off the top anytime she touches you.

Lucario has always felt very even, but I've never played a great Lucario so I won't comment.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

I hear a lot of people use Wario's "superior mobility" as an excuse to why he "beats" a lot of characters, said by both Wario and non-Wario mains. Mobility on it's own means nothing unless you can explain how air speed gives Wario enough speed to punish the character. Look at Jigglypuff, 2nd highest air speed and arguably the worst character in the game. Also, Robin's f-air outright beats Wario's fair due to range, so idk why you'd use that in neutral. If the move had landing lag it wouldn't be a problem, but it doesn't since it autocancels on sh+ff and is one of the most spammable moves in the game in neutral, so Robin will just throw it out if you're in range and can go completely unpunished. That move can literally only be punished by a powershield+dash attack or a preemptive roll. Air speed doesn't help Wario in any way against that move.

 

[Axel311]

I hear a lot of people use Wario's "superior mobility" as an excuse to why he "beats" a lot of characters, said by both Wario and non-Wario mains. Mobility on it's own means nothing unless you can explain how air speed gives Wario enough speed to punish the character. Look at Jigglypuff, 2nd highest air speed and arguably the worst character in the game. Also, Robin's f-air outright beats Wario's fair due to range, so idk why you'd use that in neutral. If the move had landing lag it wouldn't be a problem, but it doesn't since it autocancels on sh+ff and is one of the most spammable moves in the game in neutral, so Robin will just throw it out if you're in range and can go completely unpunished. That move can literally only be punished by a powershield+dash attack or a preemptive roll. Air speed doesn't help Wario in any way against that move.

Airspeed advantage gives that character with it the ability to better position himself in neutral than a character with worse airspeed. So for Wario more punishes are possible.

Yes Robin's better range makes up for this somewhat but I think mobility wins here. I've always been a believer that frame data/mobility/speed > range/power in this game and that's pretty clear looking at tier lists.

You make good points about Robin's landing lag on fair and that Wario's fair is outranged, but didn't mention that it comes out at a significantly earlier frame than Robin's fair. And it doesn't need to outrange her aerials to be used for pressuring.

Airspeed, mobility and frame data is certainly a big factor in the matchup, I don't see how it's not a valid reason. It's not the only reason I think Wario wins slightly, but it's one of them. Mobility is certainly one of Robin's biggest flaws as a character.

Puff loses hard to shield which negates her ability to capitalize from her airspeed quite a bit, she doesn't have an option like bite to beat shield. And has a list of other problems like weight, rest being bad, ect. making her one of the worst in game. Her airspeed is actually one of her few redeeming qualities.

I mean I'm all ears to arguments from the other side here, not an expert by any means, but from my experiences in bracket and friendlies I've always felt comfortable and confident in the matchup. I've certainly never played a Robin on the level of Dath however. I have played a set with Nairo but against his ZSS, not his Robin unfortunately.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Spoiler: Big reply lol

Airspeed advantage gives that character with it the ability to better position himself in neutral than a character with worse airspeed. So for Wario more punishes are possible.

What punishes are good specifically using Wario's air speed? When considering a match-up, blind theory doesn't cut it. I'm not sure if you're just using theory to come up with this conclusion or actual experience/MU knowledge. Every Robin I've played or seen play utilizes f-air in neutral in an optimal way that can hardly be punished. That way is spacing it, short hop, retreat, fast fall, and then jab or shield or another f-air. Back when I was labbing Peach, I found that if Peach retreats with F-air, it's nearly impossible to jump OOS and f-air Peach. This is a concrete example of where air speed doesn't cut it. Now I am saying that if Robin is well-spaced, as is what you should assume as well, Wario cannot punish the move without using grounded options.

You make good points about Robin's landing lag on fair and that Wario's fair is outranged, but didn't mention that it comes out at a significantly earlier frame than Robin's fair. And it doesn't need to outrange her aerials to be used for pressuring.

You can't just f-air and bite every character in neutral xD. I understand Robin's f-air is slower, but the fact he/she can space it absolutely means that Wario has to respect that option. You can't just say "I'm faster so I get to just f-air around in neutral." Levin Sword/f-air has ridiculous range/power. I'm not saying you won't ever get a f-air on Robin, but against a good one who understands how to use their move optimally (see above), you will not be winning most most short hop air fights. I'm not saying, Wario loses to sword fighters, because he doesn't have as good range, I understand that it's more complicated than that. But in this case specifically, respecting range and knowing the importance of powershielding is way more important than trying to beat Robin with our F-air. If you really want to get technical, go into training mode and space Wario just outside levin sword range, have the Robin+Wario short hop fair and have Wario approach with his while Robin retreats and see how well Wario's air speed helps him get in on Robin's range. It doesn't. Robin is a character who hardly approaches and that limits how Wario can play neutral. I'm not going to say always run up and shield, but I am going to always say respect the opponents options, especially when you're playing Wario.

I'm pretty sure Yoshi and maybe a few other characters in this game are match-ups where one can mindlessly f-air in neutral, and honestly even then I doubt that's ever truly possible when you know the opponent is smart enough to powershield.

Yes Robin's better range makes up for this somewhat but I think mobility wins here. I've always been a believer that frame data/mobility/speed > range/power in this game and that's pretty clear looking at tier lists.

Airspeed, mobility and frame data is certainly a big factor in the matchup, I don't see how it's not a valid reason. It's not the only reason I think Wario wins slightly, but it's one of them. Mobility is certainly one of Robin's biggest flaws as a character.

You're assuming that correlation equals causation. Yes, typically in most smash games mobility is a good thing to have, but again, mobility on its own does not make a character good/bad/better/worse. Lucario's mobility is awful, but he's arguable top/high tier. Ness/Rosa aren't the fastest either. Every character in this game needs to be viewed in the sense that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Robin doesn't have the greatest mobility, but that doesn't mean the character doesn't have other attributing factors that could benefit the character/ give Wario issues. A character doesn't outright lose to greater mobility and this is not debatable. Aside from this, Esam and Abadango have rated Robin as an amazing character and I'm in that boat as well. As for the MU and who wins, I have no opinion on it, but I feel in general we, including myself, tend to overrate Wario and his attributes .

Lol I'm sorry if I sound condescending, I completely respect your emphasis on mobility. I feel very strongly about this issue when people overrate a single aspect of a character whether it be mobility, range, power, weight, whatever. It's why everyone in the world thinks that their character beats Ike/Lucario despite both being amazing characters in competitive play. I've come to learn how so many things can factor into a character being good, that it's almost useless trying to theorize a match-up based entirely on frame data.

 

[Snorley]

I'd assume Dath has experience with Black Guy Gamer and Lord Frieza. I'm inexperienced in the MU personally, but I remember seeing a tournament with Dath and Frieza in bracket where Dath knocked Frieza into losers, Frieza reset the bracket in GF and lost 2-3 in the second set of GF. The games were generally very close, no one really dominated the series. The MU was played fairly slowly as neither side wished to approach, but both characters benefited from such. We have to be weary of Robin's books/levin sword as a projectile too, don't forget about them. We can eat them however, but throwing out chomp isn't wise as he can punish the endlag with the book if you chomped preemptively. We out mobilize Robin easily, but have to watch out for his/her projectiles as they have a lot of stage control. Off stage, we have an advantage as Robin lacks a hitbox above him/her. I feel like the MU is most likely 50/50.


Wario vs Lucario is interesting, the MU has multiple stages imo - Everything I say is based off of personal experience, I'd like input from others because my thoughts will likely differ from yours!

At the start of the match (0-80%):

Lucario has a bunch of combos, almost no kill power, and low damage output per move. He can link his moves fairly well and get nice strings, but is isn't very threatening. We should probably try and take the match slowly here to gain waft. At this stage, we're at an advantage. Lucario's mobility is average at best without large hitboxes at this point, we should try and stay mobile and avoid getting grabbed which sets off his low % combos without aura. Ideally, we should be out damaging him at this stage in the match (try and stay below 50% and have at the very least half waft).

Mid stock (80-110%)

At this point, Lucario has decent kill power. His Uair and Bair are deceptively strong and he can combo a smash off of his wave bounced aura sphere, something we should look out for as it is a decent movement option for him. His bair at this stage should be avoided at all costs near the ledge. We should be looking to close the stock out asap, even if it means using Waft. We don't want to let Lucario get too much Aura+Rage or things get very hairy. We can intercept his recovery with dair offstage and bike+waft at ledge. The startup on it is slow, so it lets us time our interception fairly easily (the hitbox doesn't appear until the end of the move). Letting him continue past this range gives him immense power and more range on a few of his aura based moves.

Going to preface the next bit as the part where I personally struggle
Late stock (110-150%)

We're in a bad spot, most of his moves kill us at 100% at this point. Bair/Uair can kill at 50-60 here, if he gets the first stock and we let him live this high, we're in trouble. Regardless, you can't be impatient when ending his stock. We have a kill throw and waft, don't be risky here or you will get punished. He has his own command grab that will kill you early, so sitting in shield doesn't work. I generally try and space myself out of his moves, some Lucarios become content just chucking aura spheres at you if you don't approach them. They're easy to avoid, but they're still somewhat threatening. I usually look for a throw off stage and a back air/down air interception to finish the stock off.

Stock 2

If you took the first stock, you're in a fantastic position. The only moves he has that will kill you at this point are his smashes and back air, avoid those and you're fine. I try and camp for waft as I'm out of range for his follow ups here usually and my own more reliable follow ups will be working soon. Even if he took the first stock, if you managed to close out his second stock then you're fine. Camp for waft and try your hardest to lay one of him imo. Waft is even more influential in this MU because he generally lacks safe on shield moves from my experiences. Half waft is generally used more in this MU to close out stocks before he gets too much aura.

That was pretty generalized and might sound silly, but I kind of jumbled how I'm thinking during each section of the game vs Lucario.

I lack exp vs Bayo again, so I'll keep quiet here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-a0xZYp45Y
i am from sfl and have played dath more than any other wario..make use of dair when edgeguard if possible.. if robin techs it his up b will auto meteor wario so always dair so that he goes into the blast zone instead of the stage. i think wario slightly losers. and you have to land at least one waft due to robin high damage racking and being able to kill way easier

 

[talkingbeatles]

Lucario... feels heavy to me...

Is that crazy? Not heavy, but like heavier than I always expect. I like what Poisonous said about having to kill with throw or waft, because that's the safe way to do it. It's frustrating to be limited to that though, and I play flashy anyway...

Also, (I apologize if this has been addressed) but, uh, we can eat (chomp) those aura sphere's right? Kind of helps against a Lucario that's campy if you've got a percentage lead.

 

[Spinosaurus]

You can, but chomping projectiles that don't heal you isn't really what I'd do.

 

[talkingbeatles]

You can, but chomping projectiles that don't heal you isn't really what I'd do.

What... you shield or dodge it?

That's not the Wario Way.

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

What... you shield or dodge it?

That's not the Wario Way.

Getting hit by that while you were "trying" to eat it, isn't the Wario Way.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Forward Tilt, while slow, can punish a Bayonetta after a spot dodge. Wario is surprisingly unsusceptible to combos due to his air speed (3rd place). Nair and Fair can also punish those combos if DI'd out of.

You can, but chomping projectiles that don't heal you isn't really what I'd do.

But it does charge the waft faster.

 

[Sari]

But it does charge the waft faster.

You only gain waft from projectiles that heal you.

 

[Waymas]

My experience vs

Lucario Advantages
- He can kill you relatively easy cause of rage and aura

Wario Advantages
- Waft
- Can camp better than lucario

Poisonus pretty much said everything about the MU, you have to play really patient and camp a lot, Lucario has to approach you otherwise he's giving you free waft.

50-50 IMO

I barely got exp vs and , i suggest we rediscuss Bayo later.

What MU's should we move next? I think revisiting the MU would be nice.

 

[Sari]

What MU's should we move next? I think revisiting the MU would be nice.

I'd like to know how the MU's with , , and v. 1.1.5. are.

would be nice to discuss again, but I still think the MU is slightly in Diddy's favor even with all of the nerfs (if not that, possibly 50:50).

 

[Axel311]

Would love to see discussed in their new post patch 1.1.5 forms. And I would definitely like to see discussed again.

Edit: being revisited would be awesome too.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

I don't know when was discussed, but if it was pre-patch and the 60-40 ratio was chosen during prepatch, then maybe we should rediscuss it. is technically weaker, but the meta has been pushed very far. I don't think anyone would ever think the MU is 50-50 given 's amazing consistency, but maybe 45-55 at best. I think if anything we should revisit and maybe . is one of the few match-ups we label as favored for . I think the MU is 50-50 with both characters having to overcome loads of cheese from both sides. But if it was 55-45 before, then after the nerfs it'd have to be more in 's favor, and I think that claim would be silly. As for , I've always found it to be easier for than , but maybe it's just me?

 

[Snorley]

tf... please elaborate on the yoshi wario matchup more...i would like to know what makes it in wario favor

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Snorley , I didn't say the Yoshi MU was in Wario's favor. I personally just haven't found the MU to be that difficult in particular. I feel like Yoshi's options in neutral don't have to be respected as much as others. I told my friend I think it's 52-48 in Yoshi's favor but +5 for Wario if Wario lands one waft. I can't see Sonic, Rosa, Fox, Mario, or Ness being equally bad or easier than Yoshi, but that is my opinion. To be honest, I would completely believe Yoshi wins the MU.

 

[Snorley]

i think.. i mean i know that yoshi completely bodies wario i think its easily one of his worst matchups

 

[Spinosaurus]

Yoshi is cheese, but he has to commit in neutral. Considering he's very prone to whiff punishment and is weak at playing footsies, he's not really bad for Wario.

 

[Snorley]

yes because you are assuming that the yoshi has the approach.. when a yoshi egg his way to the time. you'll see how wario cannot approach

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

Wario CAN approach Yoshi tho. It's hard, but you need to Powershield every egg + use bike more often as a shield or item. Yoshi feels like a character who we only can hit and kill if we punish every move of him.

 

[Spinosaurus]

yes because you are assuming that the yoshi has the approach.. when a yoshi egg his way to the time. you'll see how wario cannot approach

Does he need to? So long as you play the footsie game, you can force Yoshi to commit. He won't throw eggs at you forever. Let's not undermine mindgames, especially when Yoshi's weak range is the mid range. It's very basic footsies.

This is a matchup where whiff punishment is key, and Wario very well can do that.

 

[Snorley]

ah you said he wont throw eggs at you forever..he is clearly not trying to win

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Snorley . When it comes to egg spam or any spam in general, once you walk within a certain range, he can't attempt to barrage at you anymore. You don't have to commit right when you get within this range. If you think of neutral like, "I need to get past these eggs and hit ," you probably will get punished for reacting to the egg pressure by committing once you've worked hard making it into range. Once you just get within range, the won't subject himself to 38 frames of cooldown, he'll be in a bad position b/c you have stage control, so you don't have to commit to anything. I lost to a recently entirely b/c of a shield break and a spike that hit the bike, but didn't look like it should have hit me, outside of that I felt handles the neutral really well, just gotta avoid the cheese!

 

[Waymas]

Aight so moving to ..Lets go!

 

[C0rvus]

I have some Mewtwo experience, albeit this is coming from a player with not too much Wario knowledge, so grains of salt. Wario loses footsies pretty hard. You have to respect down tilt's range, and fair is safe as well. He also outruns Wario, so you really end up needing to play to his pace. Shadow Ball hurts. I dunno if it can be eaten, but it's likely not worth it anyway. So generally Wario is outranged and outpaced. Woohoo!

Of course, Mewtwo is light as all hell, so Waft is a huge threat to him. He basically has to 2 stock Wario. Mewtwo also has a pretty poor grab range so he has to come in close to get those. He also has kind of a blind spot right where retreating fair goes, so that's nice. Space around fair and down tilt, respect shadow ball, take the damage you can get, and be safe. He's pretty hard to gimp because he has a lot of resources and a teleport. I guess that means you can 2 frame it with Waft unless they teleport in from above the ledge.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Aight so moving to ..Lets go!

Alright. Mewtwo I feel Wario has a strong matchup against, mainly because Wario can eat his main projectile with Chomp, which prevents it even doing shield damage. SH Nair and Fair mess Mewtwo up too much and makes it hard to hit Disable. Mewtwos recovery is one of the easiest ones in the game to land a Dair on. All Mewtwo has is better range, so try to approach with Bike and you've got a pretty easy time.

 

[C0rvus]

It seems we have very different experiences. That's good I think. One thing I forgot to mention is that he can chase Shadow balls, so he can use them to condition and apply mixups. I am still not certain what the best way to deal with them is, but I feel like if they see you chomp one they will start to dash attack you for it.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Well, if they mix up their game to avoid being predictable, then so should we. Bike could be used as a meat shield while it's a projectile and can hurt the Dash Attacking MewTwo. You could also just jump, or airdodge. Shadow Ball isn't exactly a hard projectile to avoid.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

1. Eating Shadow Ball doesn't really give Wario a significant advantage over Mewtwo. Shadow ball has almost no lag, so the only scenario this really works is if Wario is across the stage from Mewtwo, has time to react, and Mewtwo throws the ball at ground level. In the air, it's not worth trying to eat the shadow ball. 2. Mewtwo is very annoying to approach. I played this Mewtwo at a tournament I went to, he wasn't a bad player fundamentally, but he beat me and more interestingly Day's Lucario despite just picking up the character. All he did was hide under a platform, shoot shadow balls, and wall out any approach I tried to make. Did the same to Day. Usually against disjointed/ranged characters, I run up and shield a lot, but against Mewtwo's D-tilt is only -9 on shield and can be spaced. I will admit I haven't labbed the MU all that much, but I never struggled against Mewtwo pre-patch and know the character's moveset pretty well from melee. 3. Dash attack can catch Mewtwo's teleport sweetspot, but the mewtwo can just teleport again and grab ledge. 4. Mewtwo can edge-guard Wario as well with Shadow-ball and just his off-stage game. Because Mewtwo has a decent neutral with ranged attacks, it's hard to think Wario wins this MU, but I'm not going to say Wario loses since I've only fought 1 decent Mewtwo.

 

[Axel311]

This matchup is really bad. Diddy just reks Wario so hard in netural that against a good diddy you're going to have to get a gimp or land a waft to win.

Super camping I've tried and I've found it just doesn't work because 1) running away gives him free banana pulls, which is terrible as with a banana Diddy's neutral is godly and 2) he has the speed and tools to chase you down. Not to mention wario loses neutral hard, so you're going to probably be behind a lot of the time anyways, so at some point you're forced to approach. It's not a bad idea to try and waft camp for the first 1:50 or if you miss a waft (it could be optimal, I'm not sure), but I've personally never had much success in that against smart Diddy players because of the 2 reasons above. And because it's quite predictable, and Diddy has a command grab, bananas, peanuts and great overall tools to harass you if you try to camp on platforms. You end up taking damage but because you're running away you're not dealing any back. I find Diddy really hard to camp overall.

Diddy's fair is a huge problem, it outprioritizes and outranges basically everything Wario has in neutral so Diddy can wall out wario by just short hop fairing, and it's really hard to punish.

And definitely don't try and eat the banana in most situations. It's not safe. Good Diddy players will want you to do that and try to bait it out, because they can punish the endlag for a free grab.

What I think you want to do in this matchup is get Diddy offstage and go after edgeguards very aggressively. Diddy dies if you touch him offstage while he Up Bs, so you have to be super aggressive off stage and take advantage of that because you're going to lose neutral. You want to fight offstage as much as possible. Easier said than done though. A good diddy will do his best to keep the match on stage at all times.

But yeah overall I find this to be one of wario's worst if not single worst matchup. I think it's something like -2, or 65:35.

- Not enough experience so I won't comment. I'd just be going on theory.

 

[Adrian Marin]

Wario's chomp is highly overrated when it comes to eating items and projectiles; the lag is negligible and it is mainly used for eating bike parts. Just power shield Shadow Ball, it's not like it's difficult to do.

 

[Troupe]

From experience with A LOT of friendlies with a friend of mine, Mewtwo's air game is just too good. His neutral air is a wonderful tool, especially when used to stop bikes. His spacing is also quite dangerous, especially with his F-tilt.

Furthermore, gimping Mewtwo is quite the chore; he can recover quite well with his second jump and up air.

(This is my first time giving advice on matchups, so I could be wrong here.)