Data Wah Wah Wah : The Wario Matchup thread

[ZeGlasses!]

We did the Diddy discussion when he still had his crazy-good Uair and Hoo-Hah stuff. I feel the matchup is way better for Wario now that those were nerfed.

 

[Waymas]

Srry for updating so late, i was having some issues but let's move on, i was thinking we need to revisit the Diddy MU, i think it's pretty even now.

 

[Dar4]

My biggest problem matchup. Even post Diddy nerf, it's really hard. Wario definitely loses. I train with a very good Diddy main who does very well in tournaments so I have a ton of experience with this.

I've struggled to figure out the best way to play this matchup. First of all, I have tried playing super campy. And it's tough, 2 major problems with it.

#1, if you camp you give Diddy free banana pulls. That's really bad.
#2, Diddy is very hard to keep away with his excellent groundspeed and aerial movement with monkey flip. He can catch you for sure.

I've personally had trouble trying to super camp diddy for those 2 reasons. What I've had the most success with personally is this approach:

Go in when Diddy doesn't have a banana. When he does have a banana, run away and camp until he gets rid of it. Diddy with a banana can't access most of his moveset until he gets rid of it. That way you in theory should limit your interaction of banana.

But mainly you want to prevent him from getting banana in the first place. Diddy without access to his bananas is a much worse character. I try to not give Diddy any space in neutral when he doesn't have a banana for this reason. I feel like inside of Diddy's fair range Wario can compete with Diddy much better. Dtilt, bite and tilts I think can go close to even with Diddy's jabs and tilts.

Approaching is tricky because Diddy's fair is godlike. Other than banana, my biggest problem with this matchup. It has good range, excellent frame data and high priority. He can wall you out with it. He can also use it to easily knock you off bike, so approaching with bike is not good here.

Oh and about banana, don't eat it. It's not safe, the endlag on the swallow animation is plenty for Diddy to get a grab. The same as getting hit by banana really.

Other key of course is to try to get diddy off stage, where wario definitely wins. Good diddys can mix up their recoveries well so he's actually tough to edgeguard unless you can force him to use Up B which you can use dair or dash attack to gimp.

But yeah unfortunately I feel this is one of Wario's worst matchups. Neutral is so incredibly difficult, Wario gets beat so badly there. Fair and banana are so tough to deal with. And offstage Wario wins, but not by a whole lot.

I know when fighting against a good diddy at or above my level that I'm going to lose neutral. So I'm probably not going to win unless I land a waft or get a gimp.

I feel in the best case scenario this is 60:40 in Diddy's favor, but it may be more like 65:35 in Diddy's favor.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

vs

Diddy pre-nerf was a very annoying matchup for Wario. He could shut him down with Uair and great kill potential off of his throw followups. Now that those things are nerfed, the matchup is better for Wario, but Diddy's mobility, great neutral, and great set of aerials can still give Wario trouble.

Wario wants to play this matchup with a lot of concentration and patience. Diddy can punish you off of the littlest due to his fast ground speed and banana, and can even punish you when hit(if it's low enough knockback). Be safe and wait for Diddy to do something punishable.

Diddy's great aerials make him tough to engage. Fair in particular is what you should watch out for. It comes out fast and it beats out goddamn everything srsly. Don't over-extend against Diddy or else he can turn the tables pretty badly.

Now for some actual tips for the matchup as Wario:

• Projectile Bike is useful for this matchup I find. Since it's good for harassing Diddy at a distance, usually when he has a banana in hand or he's trying to get a banana.
• Chomp is useful since a lot of Diddy's attacks use his hurtbox. Peanuts and Banana's can be eaten for health, but don't eat them too close to Diddy cause he can punish you. Another thing to note is that Side B can be chomped unless he is doing the kick version.
• Use platforms to evade Diddy's banana, and don't be scared to camp on platforms when he has a banana in hand. Diddy can only throw the banana and use his specials. Many will just throw it and try to hit you, use this oppurtunity to jump back down and reset the neutral. But he might try to jump up and engage you, so watch for it.
• If you want to be a jerk in true Wario spirit, if you have a good lead and you manage to get a hold of Diddy's banana. Camp the dumb chimpanzee out and watch them struggle to get it back. Glide Toss Banana to Waft can work and it's hilarious(but don't be trying for it).
• Diddy has an exploitable recovery, but don't try to chase him offstage frequently because Monkey Flip is hard to intercept and you might just give Diddy stage control. But if you force him to use Up-B that can usually end in a dead monkey or at the very least free damage.

In the end, I think this matchup is 45-55 's favor but at a high enough level it might be 40-60. It's definitely winnable and I don't think it's as bad as you guys make it out to be.

 

[Triburos]

Been noticing a pretty clear pattern of alot of Wario's match-ups being just under even. Typically they're slightly in the opponent's favor.

Poor guy. But it could be worse. Anyone got a chart of match-ups for Wario so far? Havn't seen one yet. I believe I saw a pretty clean chart on the Greninja boards that'd be nice to follow. Just me, though.

On the topic of Diddy, I havn't played many since the nerfing but they were always giving me hell. I've learned a few tricks against them, like I think Chomp will beat monkey flip (except for kick if I'm not mistaken?) And he can charge Waft off of peanuts. Possibly bananas.

I still have alot of problems with him though. Can't really point out exactly where though. It's fine once he's off stage, but on-stage is always a pain for me.

Edit: Just read ZeGlasses's post. Good to see I'm not a totally ****e Wario. Thanks for the advice

 

[Thinktron]

Hmm, Can we start a discussion on Pit? I think Its a small pit advantage in the short time i played wario, Since its so hard to challenge him in the air due to his range (That Nair especially), and Pit can combo with his down throw To pretty high percents. Combine this with a good projectile, some good kill options and the ability to trade with Bike. we got our self a challenge

 

[Dar4]

Been noticing a pretty clear pattern of alot of Wario's match-ups being just under even. Typically they're slightly in the opponent's favor.

I'm starting to realize this and it makes me sad. I'm starting to realize Wario has a lot of 45-55 and 60-40 disadvantageous matchups.

All these matchups probably fit that category in my opinion -



and then are worse probably.

That's a lot of matchups to lose. I don't know if he beats ANY top/high tiers. The only top/high tier I think he does well against is because bite and bike beating his dash grab approach and wario being able to gimp. I tend to body falcons in tournament but that could just be me being good at the matchup. He might beat slightly. He might be even with . Other than that, he probably loses to all the top 15-20 characters which is sad. I don't know of anyone he definitively beats.

I thought swordies just took a learning curve but I'm starting to realize that their advantage in neutral due to their disjoints is real. They have an easier time spacing us out. Really it's been a depressing realization and I'm starting to learn towards playing better characters sadly. The more and more I play wario the more I realize how his matchup spread really isn't all that great. The introduction of 2 really good sword characters recently due to DLC and all the marth buffs really hurt wario in the meta in as well in my opinion. Disjoints just suck for wario.

And even when it comes to low tiers wario has to work against matchups that many top/high tiers win at the character selection screen. I don't feel like he really bodies anyone. I'm not convinced he has any matchups better than 60-40 in his favor. He might, but I'm not convinced of it yet.

 

[Sari]

Can we briefly go back to discussing the MU with , since no one really talked about him? Most people say it's in 's favor, but I personally hate this matchup because Mega Man's lemons allows him to keep his distance from Wario's short range. I have very little experience against so my thoughts don't really mean anything. I just want to know how Wario fares with Mega Man.

 

[Thinktron]

Can we briefly go back to discussing the MU with , since no one really talked about him? Most people say it's in 's favor, but I personally hate this matchup because Mega Man's lemons allows him to keep his distance from Wario's short range. I have very little experience against so my thoughts don't really mean anything. I just want to know how Wario fares with Mega Man.

Its such a weird Match-up, Its nice to be able to use chomp to avoid so many attacks but i also struggle a little, my main problem being landing the kill move, since he can threw out so many projectiles i just have to camp away and wait for waft, which i often ended up Disliking as a strategy so i go back in the find new ways to approach and get slaughtered...

 

[Triburos]

I'm starting to realize this and it makes me sad. I'm starting to realize Wario has a lot of 45-55 and 60-40 disadvantageous matchups.

All these matchups probably fit that category in my opinion -



and then are worse probably.

That's a lot of matchups to lose. I don't know if he beats ANY top/high tiers.

I don't feel like he really bodies anyone. I'm not convinced he has any matchups better than 60-40 in his favor. He might, but I'm not convinced of it yet.

Yeah, I feel yah. Still love the character though, I'm possibly even dropping MK as my main for him. I just like the number of tools he has.

Always been a fan of the little things like suicidal kill moves, throwable projectiles, shield break set ups, instant kill moves and so on. I was looking for a character capable of all of that, and Wario fits the bill just right with Bite, Bike, Bike throw into Waft and.. Well, Waft.

I'll be honest though, having a clear streak of just barely unfavorable match-ups isn't that bad in my opinion. I'm by no means a professional player, but if I'm maining Wario, I think I'd prefer to have a consistent *almost* even match-up spread rather than having say... Half the cast in Wario's favor and the other half LARGELY against Wario's favor. I feel that'd make him less viable and turned into more of a pocket more than he already is, only usable against very certain characters. Wouldn't be surprised if folk disagreed though, as I said I'm not a tourney junkie or anything.

It's a shame, but I'm just glad his match-ups aren't god awful. With his two worst, Shiek is a given and Diddy popularity has dropped quite a bit. Could be much worse.




On topic of I actually have a few questions since I rarely see these guys:

1. Doubt it, but can you eat dog?

2. Does Bike beat out crash bomber and blade projectiles?

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

On topic of I actually have a few questions since I rarely see these guys:

1. Doubt it, but can you eat dog?

2. Does Bike beat out crash bomber and blade projectiles?

1: I don't think we can eat doge.

2: Bike beats Crash bomber, but Wario will fall of his bike if Mega Man throws the chainsaw blade.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

We

Been noticing a pretty clear pattern of alot of Wario's match-ups being just under even. Typically they're slightly in the opponent's favor.

It's because we want to discuss the harder matchups first so that we can develop strategies to beat those problematic characters and further Wario's meta. We know we win against characters like Bowser or Zelda, so why hurry to discuss them. It's more worthwhile to discuss the matchups we lose. We just discuss them so frequently it makes it look like Wario isn't that great.

 

[Sari]

If it isn't too much trouble, I'm gonna bring some mains over from the MM threads so we can get a better understanding of what the MU is like.

 

[ravemaster47]

Megaman wins this matchup I feel. Wario approach on bike is snuffed by metal blade and thrown leaf shield. We might be able to just shiekd woth leaf shield up and knock you off as well. Your recovery woth bike also gives us an opportunity to either u air or dair you depending if you recover high or low. Our pellet game is usually goid enough to keep Wario away. A note, your bite eats all of our projectiles, including fsmash.
55:45 or even 60:40, megaman's favor.

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

Why do you guys think this MU is a slight disadvantage for Wario?! It's not like you always have to approach with the bike. (Altough it's superb for approaching Mega Man while he's using the crash bomber)

If Wario's close to Mega Man, in the air or Mega Man needs to recover, Wario will have the spotlight. It sometimes reminds me of the Luigi MU, but with more projectiles.

For the Metal Blade however, just try to run/walk Shield it or try to grab it from him. (With an airdodge for a example.)

The projectiles are not that annoying unlike against ROB's projectiles, but you'll get my point.

 

[Megamang]

Most characters that give us trouble are either able to really quickly close distance (CF), have a huge burst hitbox that beats our zoning (CF Grab, Shiek's moves, Cloud), or have a better zoning game than us (just shiek). I don't feel Wario has these things. Your command grab is really good, but we shouldn't be in that range at all. Your aerial mobility isn't that much greater than ours (You win out in top airspeed, we win in aerial acceleration), and we are barely less heavy than you (102 to your 107... weight units), our kill throw kills in similar range.



Most of us don't play good Warios with any frequency, so we aren't clear on the matchup.

The questions we need to discuss to determine the MU: What is your gameplan in the MU, how do you secure damage in the early game and stocks in the later game, and how can you close ground against Pellets, Metal Blade, and Crash Bomber, and how can you beat out leaf shield ->dashgrab or leaf shield -> thrown or leaf shield -> shield, and do you have any options which beat all three, or at least two of the three? Characters that don't are super susceptible to leaf shield mixups.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I personally think wario is one of our tougher match ups. It is like facing Mario only he has a much better recovery and can wreck a lot of our projectiles. He is harder to gimp because of bike mixups and can turn a game in his favor with the waft alone.

Also his really good aerial mobility makes it a challenge for us to keep him out.

I think 55-45 for wario

 

[Appledees]

I personally think wario is one of our tougher match ups. It is like facing Mario only he has a much better recovery and can wreck a lot of our projectiles. He is harder to gimp because of bike mixups and can turn a game in his favor with the waft alone.

Also his really good aerial mobility makes it a challenge for us to keep him out.

I think 55-45 for wario

??????????????????

I've played this matchup alot with my friend who used to use Wario regularly and its a pretty even but long as hell matchup. Megaman has the options to just keep Wario out when approaching and taking advetage of Wario's low range on moves. He also doesn't care about the bike that much cause metal blade and leaf shield actually knock him off of it. Basically in Megaman's side he can actually play a good patient mid range game in the neutral.

Now in Wario's case while he has poor range in this matchup he has alot of mobility to weave in and out from Megaman stuff which results to alot of waiting. Megaman can pressure Wario however Wario has alot of ways to get around it. I think when Megaman is offstage Wario can actually **** him up badly which gives Wario a scary edge against Megaman here. The Wario in this matchup has to play pretty patient and smart and look at opportunities to rack up damage little by little.

I would feel that Megaman slightly wins the neutral due to Wario's not great range but then there's Waft. Both characters sorta have troulbe killing but Wario has legitimate setups and ledge games that can honestly be horribly scary for megaman. Megaman is also more prone to fish for kills in this matchup.

My experience with this matchup are really long and drawn out fights where both players have to play really patient to take a stock. I personally see it as 50:50. I don't see it being horribly sided in anyone's case here.

 

[CopShowGuy]

The problem is that Mega Man has to be very patient in this MU (like most of them, actually). But while we're playing it safe, Wario's Waft is building up. Once that is online (or even half way if we're hurt), then we have to be even MORE cautious. We also have to use Metal Blade from a slightly closer than comfortable distance or most Warios will just eat it and regain some HP and fill the Waft charge.

It really does feel even most of the time, but Wario has an easier time securing the KO and he is very nimble in the air which is where one of Mega Man's blind spots in (those 45 degree angles) so, at best, I'd give him a 55:45 in Wario's favor.

 

[Eren Swaeger]

Megaman lemons beat out warios bite, throwing metal blade fresh beats out bike and leaf shield beats it out aswell. Smartest decision would be to use bike in the air. But rush can be used to avoid the bike. Megamans worst stage is probaly smashville or t&c versus wario In my opinion, megaman wins the mu.

 

[Sari]

Mega Man's pellets will also kick Wario off of the bike as long as Mega Man hits Wario with just one pellet (which can easily be done by short hopping). I feel like bike is almost useless in this matchup in terms of approaching due to Mega Man's projectiles (imo they're more annoying than R.O.B.'s).

 

[Eren Swaeger]

If you do a weelie on warios bike, it stops pellets and metal blade (not too sure on that one)

 

[Sari]

A Mega Man could capitalize on a wheelie with an aerial such as b-air (or metal blade which should knock off Wario as long as it's thrown towards him). If that doesn't work, they can just shield/move out of the way and punish it.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

Megaman's mid-range tools aren't really threatening enough to really force Wario to approach. They are either not hard to avoid or they just don't do a lot of damage. And Waft is stupid strong in this matchup, so I'm gonna camp whenever I can.

 

[Eren Swaeger]

But if you're camping, that's what megman wants. To space and zone you out and for you to not approach because we don't want a full or med charged waft.

 

[Poisonous]

An example of the MU at top level:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBJihQAYq3E

Scatt was forced off of his main. I can't claim to understand his reasoning, maybe he was confident in his Cloud, but the fact that he was forced off of his main still stands. Reflex made use of the bike as a projectile. The match was relatively fast paced, but I would attribute that to them probably playing each other quite a bit and knowing each other's habits.

I don't understand why there is so much discussion on getting knocked off of bike in the neutral, there is no need for Wario to approach here. MM lacks a high speed projectile, metal blade can safely be eaten at a mid range distance especially since MM isn't fast enough to punish the end lag. Once we have Waft, one mistake means you're dead. If Wario manages to get MM offstage or on the ledge, things gets even scarier. Dash attack on ledge catches MM's upB and the lack of hitbox means we can go for Dair or Bair trying to stage spike.

@Eren, you said camping is what MM wants, but that's what Wario wants too. Your projectiles aren't threatening enough to force an approach, I personally don't feel like I have to. We can abuse Wario's aerial mobility and just hop around them until you come closer.

I think Wario wins the MU. I don't like assigning ratios, but if I were to then I would say 6:4 Wario favor.

 

[CopShowGuy]

@Eren, you said camping is what MM wants, but that's what Wario wants too. Your projectiles aren't threatening enough to force an approach, I personally don't feel like I have to. We can abuse Wario's aerial mobility and just hop around them until you come closer.

I think Wario wins the MU. I don't like assigning ratios, but if I were to then I would say 6:4 Wario favor.

Gotta agree with this. Wario's aerial mobility/control is too good for Mega Man to shut out for very long. It's not like he hard counters Mega Man, but it is a difficult matchup that we can't be too reckless in but don't have time to play patiently either.

 

[Waymas]

Aight here we goooooo i'll edit this in a bit but for now here's my opinion on the MU


Toonlink advantages:
- Better camping
- Small hitbox
- Racks up damage better than Wario
- Upair hits like a truck
- Bomb combos

Wario advantages:
- Awesome air mobility
- Combo into waft
- Bite and bike are really good in this MU
- We can gimp Toon Link

Ok so i got some exp vs Hyuga and a friend that uses a toonlink really good, pretty much you will spend the entire game on your shield and avoiding projectiles, you can't camp TL so you have to approach him all the time(unless you are 1 stock ahead), don't get frustated if you get hit that's what TL mains want, to get you frustated and start making stupid mistakes cause of that.

When you approach him always keep your shield up and grab those bombs, it can lead into an easy grab for us, remember Toon Link kills realies too much on BOMB COMBOS and BTHROW so if you can avoid those moves you should be fine at around 100%.

Rising BITE is really good because it will cover most of his get up options, try to get Toon Link in the air since he's really vulnerable up there and a DAIR is really risky IMO.

Offstage we win because of DAIR and BAIR , but don't be too obvious or you will get UPAIRED all the time, you gotta him on the very top off his head so the UPB, since he doesn't have a hitbox there.

Tools for spacing: Bair and Fair

TL;DR. ToonLink excels at camping wario but once you get in he has to get out pretty fast or he will start get owned really hard.

Stages to ban: Flat stages, our best option are stages with platforms since we can get free bites if he shields a lot and we can run more freely.

MU Ratio: We might have a little advantage but i'll go with 50-50

VS

Cloud advantages:
- LIMIT
- Insane Range
- Better Neutral Game
- Upair and Utilt are dumb


Wario advantages:
- Can gimp cloud
- Better Aerial speed
- Uptilt beats his Dair

On this MU you have to go in if Cloud doesn't have limit otherwise if he has Limit you have to stay away from him and keep playing the hit and run game, usually the Cloud will try to waste it soon so stay safe and runaway, let him make stupid mistakes, don't airdodge on this MU too much otherwise he can get a free Down B if he reads your airdodge, use bike to run away.

Cloud can space you pretty well so be careful, like BAIR too FTILT is safe for them so pay attention to this if you are landing or trying to get Cloud, your best bet is gimp him, that's the place where he is vulnerable, REMEMBER his UP B works like Falcon Up B this means if you have a bike near the ledge and you Waft it's pretty much gg for him.

Overall he beats you in the neutral and Limit is too dumb, so i'll go with 40-60 in favor.

 

[GerudoKong]

How does Wario do against bayonetta? I've been having poor results at locals against her with my other characters, and even though Wario is just one of my sides, I feel like it could be a decent mu. Nair and fair stay out pretty long so if they get witch timed I ASSUME they will hit bayo while she charges a full usmash/fsmash. His heaviness combined with small hurtboxes and great air speed seem like they could help in DI'ing the upB strings, and lastly waft being a good punish often for those times where she suffers from large endlag.

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

I've played some friendlies against some Bayonetta's and I think Wario does probably fine against her unlike other characters. Wario's command grab and Bike saved me a bunch of times, but Bayo can still combo us like she always do. But when you see Bayo is really going for that Witch Time, go all in with that Command Grab of ours.

 

[Megamang]

Having a command grab and kill throw are very valuable tools vs Bayonetta.


Don't rely on lingering hitboxes to beat Witch Time though. A good bayonetta will just utilt/jab you to cancel it out, then proceed to smash you. Witch time is a player vs player interaction, you need to beat it out your own way. Fortunately she is light, i'm no Wario master (im here from the MM discussion) but forcing her to the ledge with command grabs and general Wario stuff, then a kill throw, should be your anti Witch Time plan.

As for anyone in the MU, i'd like to say you need to learn SDI vs her combos. SDIing up actually helps escape the up b side b up b side b uair BnB. Additionally, learn to apply pressure by not attacking, if you just buffer attacks at her she will eat you. Get a training buddy and learn to punish Heel Slide. If the witch is shooting during the slide, she is gonna kick, if she isn't shooting she wont. Learn when you can hit after Witch Time, even though its strong is isn't unpunishable.

I'm just here to spread anti Bayo knowledge, since I don't want to see her dominate since the 5.99 meme is already old. Good luck out thar.

 

[Waymas]

Last week to move on, what MU's are you guys interested on discussing?

 

[Sari]

I'm interested in the MUs with , , and .

EDIT: Also like Poisonous said, as well.

 

[Thinktron]

I still Would like to discuss Pit, unless i already covered it In my last post XD

 

[ZeGlasses!]

I agree with discussing Robin. I've always had trouble in that matchup and I feel it'd be worthwhile discussing counter-strategies.

 

[Axel311]

These especially, I'm really unsure of how Wario does -



After those matchups, these would be my next choices -

 

[Poisonous]

I'd like to talk about any of these:

 

[xIvan321]

I have a lot of experience in this match up so don't write up your numbers just yet.

From my personal view, Wario will struggle more with the more technical Mega Man, but even without glitches like DITCIT, there's still a couple flaws on Wario's end that can be really big. For Wario to win a good Mega Man, I think first off Wario isn't actually allowed to eat every single thing. Metal blades for instance are a tricky thing to eat because that could mean either free damage or death for the Wario, so you should really respect that. Mega Man can also knock him off the bike with Metal blade, and preferably off stage: back air. (if forced to used bike) And also Leaf shield which can bait "bite".

On one hand Wario could probably bite our recovery but most of us will hold our jump before that happens and still make it back. I do know that Wario seems to struggle with ledge snapping with Up B however, and I've taken full advantage over that, by shield grabbing, spiking or eventually gimping. It takes a little effort but it's not a hard concept understand. I tend to force a pummel grab release from on stage, and this is how I've net most of my other kills outside of just sliding around with the metal blade.

The only thing that can be the scariest in the Match up is Waft, and the set ups to it, which we should respect but still punish some of these on shield. Wario could also use it to kill off stage but it won't be always effective due to how much height Mega Man is allowed to recover.

I personally feel the MU is only slight favor to us. (megaman) 55:45 (wario) since we can make you approach and even punish you on a handful of attacks you may use against us, but waft and aerial game isn't something to ignore either.

 

[Waymas]

I say let's move to and ;3

 

[ARGHETH]

I say let's move to and ;3

Raziek and Dath put it as 55-45 Robin's favor and says that the basic gameplan (Robin side) is to zone him out and abuse aerials. Apparently, Dath has experience vs Reflex or something like that.