vs shiek

[BattleJesus]

We should probably talk about the shiek matchup at some point. I have a friend i play with who has a nasty zelda/shiek. I handle is zelda well enough without a problem, but its when he switches to shiek i start to have a problem. yes i know i can chain grab-spike easily, but he's just as good and so we aren't easily grabbed. My main problem though is her f-tilt chain -> upsmash. If he f tilts me once he can chain ftilts till 70ish% and then immediately upsmash leaving me at around 90% with nothing I can do.

 

[-Mars-]

I main Sheik

You aren't guaranteed a chain grab spike on Sheik unless the player is an idiot and has no clue on how to DI. All the Sheik needs to do is DI away and they'll be able to recover fine.

You can get out of the tilt lock/powershield before 40%. If the ftilt is properly decayed at 40% the knockback will be so minimal that you will stay in until the tipper usmash.

Any good Sheik should also be counterpicking Norfair against a Falco. No chaingrab for Falco but Sheik keeps her tilt lock.

 

[8AngeL8]

Haha, I have the opposite problem. I can tear my friend's shiek apart but I have trouble when he switches to Zelda.

I play the matchup fairly campy. Your projectiles are far superior, so force her to approach. If she comes by air, nair up to meet her. Bair works as well.

If by ground. shield or spotdodge into the CG or the AAA combo. Once you've punished her, get in her face with the Gatling Combo and downsmashes. If you get her on the back foot, be relentless and combo her until she gets her momentum back. Once she's recovered and ready to start fighting you again, illusion away and start camping again.

Sheik can be really dangerous if she's right on top of you, but if you spam dash attacks and gatling combos, you should be beating her easily.

Edit: Is Norfair ever allowed? It's been banned at every tourney I've been to.

 

[Mith_]

Norfair is allowed at some tourneys. The stage hazards aren't THAT bad and its a good level to counter pick against chain grabbers.

 

[-Mars-]

Haha, I have the opposite problem. I can tear my friend's shiek apart but I have trouble when he switches to Zelda.

I play the matchup fairly campy. Your projectiles are far superior, so force her to approach. If she comes by air, nair up to meet her. Bair works as well.

If by ground. shield or spotdodge into the CG or the AAA combo. Once you've punished her, get in her face with the Gatling Combo and downsmashes. If you get her on the back foot, be relentless and combo her until she gets her momentum back. Once she's recovered and ready to start fighting you again, illusion away and start camping again.

Sheik can be really dangerous if she's right on top of you, but if you spam dash attacks and gatling combos, you should be beating her easily.

Edit: Is Norfair ever allowed? It's been banned at every tourney I've been to.

You are aware that Sheik can just crouch under the lasers right? Your idea of playing Sheik is combo her, illusion away and start camping again?

Lol, spam dash attacks? Dash attack can be seen from a mile away, if the Sheik shields the attack you will get ftilt out of shield and you won't be going anywhere for a while.

Sheik also ***** Falco off the stage, you better hope you don't get knocked off or the Sheik player makes a mistake.

If Norfair isn't allowed, other stages such as Japes or Rainbow Cruise work just fine and the same principle applies.

 

[8AngeL8]

Wow, if it's allowed, that absolutely needs to be the stage a Falco player bans. I think I've won, like, 3 matches there with Falco before, lol.

 

[-Mars-]

Wow, if it's allowed, that absolutely needs to be the stage a Falco player bans. I think I've won, like, 3 matches there with Falco before, lol.

Your that dependent on the chain grab?

 

[8AngeL8]

You are aware that Sheik can just crouch under the lasers right? Your idea of playing Sheik is combo her, illusion away and start camping again?

Lol, spam dash attacks? Dash attack can be seen from a mile away, if the Sheik shields the attack you will get ftilt out of shield and you won't be going anywhere for a while.

Sheik also ***** Falco off the stage, you better hope you don't get knocked off or the Sheik player makes a mistake.

If Norfair isn't allowed, other stages such as Japes or Rainbow Cruise work just fine and the same principle applies.

You don't just stand there firing lasers like an idiot. Play smart, space her, and get some SHDL lasers off. If you'd actually paid attention to my post, I said the dash attacks come after you've already gotten a grab or AAA off so that you can get in without her just shielding and tilting.

Everyone ***** Falco off stage. Watch her, air dodge at the right time, and side-B on when you get a chance. She's not Meta-Knight, you CAN get back on stage.

 

[8AngeL8]

Your that dependent on the chain grab?

No, it's just a terrible stage for Falco in general. He can't laser, and the platforms screw his spacing up horribly. Ask any Falco player, it's a horrible stage to play on.

 

[-Mars-]

You don't just stand there firing lasers like an idiot. Play smart, space her, and get some SHDL lasers off. If you'd actually paid attention to my post, I said the dash attacks come after you've already gotten a grab or AAA off so that you can get in without her just shielding and tilting.

Everyone ***** Falco off stage. Watch her, air dodge at the right time, and side-B on when you get a chance. She's not Meta-Knight, you CAN get back on stage.

You said"illusion away" if Falco is ever away from you you'll just crouch, SHDL are pretty useless in this matchup.

She's not metaknight, but she's in the same league as ROB and DDD when it comes to gimping.

 

[J4pu]

You said"illusion away" if Falco is ever away from you you'll just crouch, SHDL are pretty useless in this matchup.

She's not metaknight, but she's in the same league as ROB and DDD when it comes to gimping.

Maybe D3, but not ROB, ROB has amazing off stage game as well as a fast and potentially strong projectile that has a large area where it is able to be aimed, add a object that can sit by the edge and cause damage when touched and you have a slightly sub-MK edge game

 

[8AngeL8]

You said"illusion away" if Falco is ever away from you you'll just crouch, SHDL are pretty useless in this matchup.

She's not metaknight, but she's in the same league as ROB and DDD when it comes to gimping.

If she's doing nothing but crouching, her mobility and options are limited. If she's crawling towards you, a gatling combo or reflector will put a stop to her plans.

I don't know what you think the Falco player is supposed to do, but I get the feeling you think Sheik totally locks Falco down. This just isn't the case.

 

[J4pu]

If she's doing nothing but crouching, her mobility and options are limited. If she's crawling towards you, a gatling combo or reflector will put a stop to her plans.

I don't know what you think the Falco player is supposed to do, but I get the feeling you think Sheik totally locks Falco down. This just isn't the case.

Crouch may go under the reflector, I'm not sure if this is the case for sheik but that's what happens when you try to shine Snake when he crawls.
An IAP will beat crouchers though

 

[8AngeL8]

Yeah, she goes under it if she stays crouched, but it she's not getting up you could illusion, or gatling combo or SH Dair.

 

[wangston]

I like Norfair. I don't counter pick it but people do it all the time. A CG for me never really last more than 3 grabs anyways, so there going to be at the edge of the platforms. I find my laser game if just fine there. Also all the platforms give me a good chance to use me aerial game. I fail to see how it is a bad stage for falco. It might be a bad stage for a Falco that can't play on anything other than flat ground.

 

[Yojimbo]

Okay, fine, Sheik can crouch. Mmkay.

Immediate Aerial Phantasms will tear through crouchers has previously stated. Lasers are not the only thing Falco has up his sleeve.

And being dependent on the chain grab; it's a free 50% or so, and a possible stock, why WOULDN'T Falco mainers use it?

I'm getting the same vibes as Angel. Granted, Sheik is decent, but no where near as close to a lock down on Falco as you have said, Marsulas.

 

[8AngeL8]

Yojimbo just summed up what I've been trying to say this whole time.

 

[§witch]

Lol, marsulas, Japes is falco's best stage.

 

[-Mars-]

Lol, marsulas, Japes is falco's best stage.

lol, switch, Japes is also one of Sheiks best stages.

Also I never said that Sheik even has the advantage in this matchup(she doesn't), so please don't put words in my mouth just because of the "vibes" your getting.

I just feel that Falcos usual methods of spacing don't work too well in this matchup and the examples that you came up with would be ineffective against Sheik.

 

[Yojimbo]

lol, switch, Japes is also one of Sheiks best stages.

Also I never said that Sheik even has the advantage in this matchup(she doesn't), so please don't put words in my mouth just because of the "vibes" your getting.

I just feel that Falcos usual methods of spacing don't work too well in this matchup and the examples that you came up with would be ineffective against Sheik.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, but you've basically said "well everything Falco does won't work on Sheik, etc etc." I'm going by what you give me, and you've yet to say anything we've suggested is a valid tactic against Sheik. So either Sheik is the trickiest character for Falco to tackle, or you aren't paying attention to the match up.

And so I don't make misinformed judgements about Sheik, I'll troll the Sheik boards for a bit.

At any rate, if IAP and lasers won't work, then what would you as a Sheik main suggest to Falco mains as a strategy?

 

[NJzFinest]

I already ranted awhile back in the Sheik forums about Falco vs Sheik. You can find some decent Falco vs Sheik discussion there.

Me and Ankoku think that it's at least 75-35, Falco's favor.

 

[J4pu]

^ ouch, terrible match-up for sheik according to that ratio
glad to see there are a few people who see and accept weaknesses rather than trying to argue them away.

 

[aeghrur]

I already ranted awhile back in the Sheik forums about Falco vs Sheik. You can find some decent Falco vs Sheik discussion there.

Me and Ankoku think that it's at least 75-35, Falco's favor.

You mean 65-35? o.O

 

[-Mars-]

I'm not putting words in your mouth, but you've basically said "well everything Falco does won't work on Sheik, etc etc." I'm going by what you give me, and you've yet to say anything we've suggested is a valid tactic against Sheik. So either Sheik is the trickiest character for Falco to tackle, or you aren't paying attention to the match up.

And so I don't make misinformed judgements about Sheik, I'll troll the Sheik boards for a bit.

At any rate, if IAP and lasers won't work, then what would you as a Sheik main suggest to Falco mains as a strategy?

"Basically" I only said Lasers won't work as well on Sheik.

Falco outprioritizes Sheik in the air, in fact bair and dair probably beat out anything she has.....that's all you need. Space well with bairs and the occassional dthrow to usmash and Sheik won't be that much of a problem at all.

Also how do you go about theorizing that I have the opinion Sheik locks Falco down? The main thing that caught my eye was"spam dash attacks and the gatling combo and you should be beating Sheik with no problem" and "illusion away and start camping again". Sure Sheik has to approach, but she does have options against camping.

I was merely trying to add some decent discussion to the thread........my bad.

 

[ADHD]

You shouldn't be getting usmashed out of an ftilt unless it's a perfect combo, which it usually never really is. You know how to DI it right? Di towards her body and slap the c-stick in that direction along with holding the analog stick. It's not like she can really do anything about your camping, if you just stand there and keep camping lasers and phantasms she'll be forced to go zelda since all she can do is crawl the entire time.

 

[-Mars-]

You shouldn't be getting usmashed out of an ftilt unless it's a perfect combo, which it usually never really is. You know how to DI it right? Di towards her body and slap the c-stick in that direction along with holding the analog stick. It's not like she can really do anything about your camping, if you just stand there and keep camping lasers and phantasms she'll be forced to go zelda since all she can do is crawl the entire time.

As long as the ftilt is properly decayed, you DI towards me at lower percentages i'll just turn around and continue tilting, at higher percentages(60-80%) i'll just dsmash. Either way it's bad for Falco.

Shield cancelled dash grabs with Sheik are extremely fast, as long as you know how to powershield, Sheik is fast enough to get in Falcos face before he can phantasm to the other side. Even if he phantasms to the other side on small stages Sheik could still get there in time.

 

[NJzFinest]

As long as the ftilt is properly decayed

That's where I stopped reading that sentence.

Sheik is fast enough to get in Falcos face before he can phantasm to the other side.

You mean if a Falco is dumb enough to start it right next to Sheik?

Even if he phantasms to the other side on small stages Sheik could still get there in time.

How can she still get there in time? She'll either have to dodge or get hit by the phantasm before even being able to run after Falco. Also, Falco barely has any lag after the phantasm (if you "do it right"). He can just do another phantasm going the other way for the hell of it.

Maybe if Sheik is good distance away from Falco and simply predicts it coming (?) Then again, that's not Sheik vs Falco specific, nor is it even smart for a Falco in that situation.

 

[8AngeL8]

^Pwnt.

10pwns

 

[poopymum]

Ive never had a problem playing norfair because i change my style to the stage enough

 

[-Mars-]

Since the hit box for Phantasm is behind Falco, any SH aerial or even tilts would stop it dead in it's tracks. Matter of fact if you developed a pattern of using Phantam when I got near I would simply SH nair.

Seriously what is with this stupid Phantasm argument, i've watched loads of vids of SK92 and Sethlon and very rarely do I see them use Phantasm as anything more than a surprise.

Like I said in my previous post and you failed to mention, I would just dash into a shield to deal with Falcos camping. Sure Falco uses his lasers for multiple things such as grab setups and just general traps, but in no way do SHDL's and IAP's shut Sheik down.

 

[NJzFinest]

Seriously what is with this stupid Phantasm argument, i've watched loads of vids of SK92 and Sethlon and very rarely do I see them use Phantasm as anything more than a surprise.

...really?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV8MLY2gEwg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NblMpykC4G4


>_________<

 

[-Mars-]

Hmmm I learned a little bit, didn't realize phantasm could be used that well.

But to be fair to me:

1. Those videos were a while ago, in most recent vids especially with SK92, I rarely see him use it.

2. You showed me two examples against characters that camp, not an aggressive character like Sheik

3. Those were also grab happy characters in situations where Sethlon was doing everyhting possible to avoid being grabbed.........do you honestly think you would approach the Sheik matchup in the same way?

 

[NJzFinest]

1. SK92 plays the same way he did in Melee, I won't use him as an example for anything.

2./3. But you mentioned just general Forward B spam with SK92/Sethlon, so yeah
Also, I wouldn't really call Ice Climbers a character that camps, especially when 70% of there game is trying to grab the opponent. I think it can at least kinda relate to how Sheik players want to get that Ftilt gayness in (despite the fact it's not nearly as bad). I'm pretty confident good laser/Forward B spam is pretty solid against Sheik, especially if she thinks crawling will help her out.

Nevertheless, yeah, I see where you're coming from

 

[#HBC | Scary]

We should probably talk about the shiek matchup at some point. I have a friend i play with who has a nasty zelda/shiek. I handle is zelda well enough without a problem, but its when he switches to shiek i start to have a problem. yes i know i can chain grab-spike easily, but he's just as good and so we aren't easily grabbed. My main problem though is her f-tilt chain -> upsmash. If he f tilts me once he can chain ftilts till 70ish% and then immediately upsmash leaving me at around 90% with nothing I can do.

So nice of you to make a thread of my Sheik ! You really just panic once I get you in the lock and forget to use proper DI. If anything, I should be using Zelda for the majority if the match and then use ZtS (Zelda to Sheik) at high damages to avoid being CG'ed. At league on Friday, we should play a few matches so I can get you familiar with the matchup because maybe you don't have enough exposure to Sheik beside myself and the one other at the league.