Captain Norris
Smash Lord
Timber also has a random chance to drop fruit. I got a cherry randomly.
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Villager: timber discussion thread
- Thread starter gbaespada
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Count Bleck
Smash Cadet
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This. Just...this. I don't think I have to say anything for this part.
Treece
Smash Cadet
Doesn't the tree expiry timer reset when you axe it?
CRUNCH
Smash Cadet
I'm really excited about this move, enough so that I went to the trouble to making my prof pic Ke$ha-ger chopping wood.
But seriously, I feel like basing her game largely round Timber is the right way to play her (similar to Diddy with nanners, peach with turnips, and snake with nades). Some people have mentioned that you should go ahead and spawn a tree if you have a chance, but I think it might be better to actually always focus your play around the tree. Some things I've notice: (and sorry if others have already pointed these things out):
1) With the right amount of touch, you stand on one side of the tree and spawn a Lloyd on the other side (you have to be walking into the tree with the right pace; if you don't push far enough, the Lloyd will just blow up at the trunk, but if you push too hard you'll walk through the tree). This allows you to sit behind the tree and launch Lloyds while being protected.
2) Around the midway point of the tree's branches, the barrier effect (that the tree has at its base) stops. So another option is to spawn a Lloyd in the branches and have it go forward past the tree. This also works with the slingshot. So a nice way to pressure someone is to spawn a Lloyd in the branches, jump up again, and shoot a slingshot shot over the tree: the Lloyd covers a straight line up top but the slingshot shot arches down a bit, so this lets you cover a lot of area with projectiles while standing on the opposite side of the tree from your opponent.
I also think these "branch Lloyds" are good for playing mind games with when you chop down the tree. So you can do the following:
a) While on the other slide of the tree, give it one chop.
b) Jump up and spawn a Lloyd in the branches
c) As you're falling down from placing the Lloyd, you have enough time for the second swing with the axe in the air.
d) The result is that you get the tree to fall down, but then the Lloyd follows the tree's fall and keeps going after the tree hits. I think doing this makes it much harder to stay away from the tree fall if there's a Lloyd emerging from the crash. Also, if you do the placement well and time the axe swing correctly, the Lloyd will move perfectly with the branches and stay hidden, and then it seemingly launches itself out of nowhere when the tree crashes. Obviously your opponent will know its in there if they're paying attention at all, but I think it ends up looking deceiving either way.
3) You can use each wood chip multiple times. If you throw the chip at someone, it spins up in the air for a moment. If it hits the ground it disappears, but while it's spinning you can pocket it again (and then repeat; I was able to do this like 5 times, so I think it's unlikely there's a limit to how many times you can do this). Albeit, you have to be close to your opponent and in the right place to do this, but if you're in a position to do it and you have time, why not?
I've only played games against CPUs, so it's possible that this type of play is too predictable for real players. Either way, I think there's a lot of room for innovation when using this move. Maybe doing this Ke$hager style of play won't be as annoying as listening to actual Ke$ha music, but with some work I think we can come close
But seriously, I feel like basing her game largely round Timber is the right way to play her (similar to Diddy with nanners, peach with turnips, and snake with nades). Some people have mentioned that you should go ahead and spawn a tree if you have a chance, but I think it might be better to actually always focus your play around the tree. Some things I've notice: (and sorry if others have already pointed these things out):
1) With the right amount of touch, you stand on one side of the tree and spawn a Lloyd on the other side (you have to be walking into the tree with the right pace; if you don't push far enough, the Lloyd will just blow up at the trunk, but if you push too hard you'll walk through the tree). This allows you to sit behind the tree and launch Lloyds while being protected.
2) Around the midway point of the tree's branches, the barrier effect (that the tree has at its base) stops. So another option is to spawn a Lloyd in the branches and have it go forward past the tree. This also works with the slingshot. So a nice way to pressure someone is to spawn a Lloyd in the branches, jump up again, and shoot a slingshot shot over the tree: the Lloyd covers a straight line up top but the slingshot shot arches down a bit, so this lets you cover a lot of area with projectiles while standing on the opposite side of the tree from your opponent.
I also think these "branch Lloyds" are good for playing mind games with when you chop down the tree. So you can do the following:
a) While on the other slide of the tree, give it one chop.
b) Jump up and spawn a Lloyd in the branches
c) As you're falling down from placing the Lloyd, you have enough time for the second swing with the axe in the air.
d) The result is that you get the tree to fall down, but then the Lloyd follows the tree's fall and keeps going after the tree hits. I think doing this makes it much harder to stay away from the tree fall if there's a Lloyd emerging from the crash. Also, if you do the placement well and time the axe swing correctly, the Lloyd will move perfectly with the branches and stay hidden, and then it seemingly launches itself out of nowhere when the tree crashes. Obviously your opponent will know its in there if they're paying attention at all, but I think it ends up looking deceiving either way.
3) You can use each wood chip multiple times. If you throw the chip at someone, it spins up in the air for a moment. If it hits the ground it disappears, but while it's spinning you can pocket it again (and then repeat; I was able to do this like 5 times, so I think it's unlikely there's a limit to how many times you can do this). Albeit, you have to be close to your opponent and in the right place to do this, but if you're in a position to do it and you have time, why not?
I've only played games against CPUs, so it's possible that this type of play is too predictable for real players. Either way, I think there's a lot of room for innovation when using this move. Maybe doing this Ke$hager style of play won't be as annoying as listening to actual Ke$ha music, but with some work I think we can come close
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Are you sure about the tree and sapling lifespans? I just tested it in the demo and the sapling lasts 14 seconds (give or take a few milliseconds) while the tree becomes unchoppable at the tenth second of its lifespan (so it is still choppable at S9, but not S10).
Also, chopping the tree does not reset its timer. If you give it a chop at S9, it will still start its unchoppable stage at S10.
Anyway, I've found that planting the tree around the fourth or fifth tile from the lip of Omega Battlefield is the most effective position for it. When you chop it down it covers the entire area between it and the edge. Planting it closer to have it fall over the edge hasn't been as successful for me because the arc it travels in is only useful for when they're recovering from straight below, so most of the time it can be easily evaded. There's also the fact that while it's falling you are unable to plant another tree for about two seconds (that's also how long it takes for the stump to disappear). Meanwhile, spacing it like I've said above allows you to plant again in about one second.
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Hong
The Strongest
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Are you talking about the current demo? Because a lot has been fine-tuned since the demo they had out there back in June.
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Yep, I tested with the early demo that was released last week (the one that will be publicly available later this week). So I'm guessing you were going off the Best Buy demos?
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Excuse the double post, but I feel that this warrants its own.
I've been doing some testing on the amount of damage the tree can take before shrinking away. It seems that it has 30% health. This was tested by planting a tree then immediately hitting it with a fresh, uncharged FSmash, "point blank", followed by a fresh, point blank FTilt, then two jabs. Under those conditions, FSmash deals 15%, FTilt deals 10%, the first jab deals 3%, and the second jab deals 2% or 3%, for a total of 30-31%. I also tested by doing FSmash+5 jabs, so assuming maximum damage output from the jabs, that adds up to 30%, at which point the tree disappears.
At first, I theorised that the mechanics behind chopping down a tree lay in the tree simply taking damage from the axe hits until it ran out of health, at which point it would fall. But there's the fact that a fresh axe hit deals only 14%, so even if it was hit by 2 fresh axe hits, that would only add up to 28%. And while testing out the health, I also did DTilt (13%)+FTilt (10%)+jab (3%)+jab (2/3%). This adds up to either 28% or 29%, and even then, the tree still took another jab before shrinking away. Not to mention that if the tree-felling mechanics were simple damage-based calculations, it wouldn't make sense for it to fall and not shrink like it does when taking enough hits. I doubt that they would go through the trouble of coding the tree so that it checked to see if it had taken axe damage in order to trigger the falling animation rather than the shrinking one.
Next, I wondered if being chopped decreased the tree's health. I planted a tree, gave it a chop, then hit it with a fresh, uncharged FSmash and a jab. That would have been 14% + 15% + 3% = 32%. However, the tree didn't fall; it took four more jabs, which corroborates my previous tests. I also tried FSmash > Chop > Jab, but that wasn't any different. Thus, it can be safely assumed that chopping at your tree does not deplete its health.
After this I tested to see if a tree's health goes down as time passes. To do this, I planted a tree, then after 5 seconds, I hit it with a fresh, uncharged FSmash + 5 jabs. It still didn't shrink until the fifth jab. I started a new match to keep everything fresh, then did FSmash+5 jabs after 7 seconds. It still didn't begin to shrink until after it took the fifth jab. I then tried this after 9 seconds, but I only got two jabs in before the tree began to wither (not shrink). The time it began to shrink was 10 seconds after sprouting, which matches my previous data. So it seems that health does not decrease as lifespan decreases, nor vice versa.
Considering all of this, I'm thinking that the axe itself is the variable that has the different properties, not the tree. If you chop at your tree while an enemy is "within" it, the enemy will suffer damage and knockback, but the tree will still be chopped. So I'm thinking that at the time of use, the axe has two different flags or whatever active and ready for impact. One checks to see if the axe has made contact with a non-self-tree object, and if that is true, it functions as an attack. The other checks if the axe made contact with a self-tree object, and if that's true, then it chops. It has to be two flags, because otherwise in the above situation you would only either chop the tree or hurt your opponent, not both.
I've been doing some testing on the amount of damage the tree can take before shrinking away. It seems that it has 30% health. This was tested by planting a tree then immediately hitting it with a fresh, uncharged FSmash, "point blank", followed by a fresh, point blank FTilt, then two jabs. Under those conditions, FSmash deals 15%, FTilt deals 10%, the first jab deals 3%, and the second jab deals 2% or 3%, for a total of 30-31%. I also tested by doing FSmash+5 jabs, so assuming maximum damage output from the jabs, that adds up to 30%, at which point the tree disappears.
At first, I theorised that the mechanics behind chopping down a tree lay in the tree simply taking damage from the axe hits until it ran out of health, at which point it would fall. But there's the fact that a fresh axe hit deals only 14%, so even if it was hit by 2 fresh axe hits, that would only add up to 28%. And while testing out the health, I also did DTilt (13%)+FTilt (10%)+jab (3%)+jab (2/3%). This adds up to either 28% or 29%, and even then, the tree still took another jab before shrinking away. Not to mention that if the tree-felling mechanics were simple damage-based calculations, it wouldn't make sense for it to fall and not shrink like it does when taking enough hits. I doubt that they would go through the trouble of coding the tree so that it checked to see if it had taken axe damage in order to trigger the falling animation rather than the shrinking one.
Next, I wondered if being chopped decreased the tree's health. I planted a tree, gave it a chop, then hit it with a fresh, uncharged FSmash and a jab. That would have been 14% + 15% + 3% = 32%. However, the tree didn't fall; it took four more jabs, which corroborates my previous tests. I also tried FSmash > Chop > Jab, but that wasn't any different. Thus, it can be safely assumed that chopping at your tree does not deplete its health.
After this I tested to see if a tree's health goes down as time passes. To do this, I planted a tree, then after 5 seconds, I hit it with a fresh, uncharged FSmash + 5 jabs. It still didn't shrink until the fifth jab. I started a new match to keep everything fresh, then did FSmash+5 jabs after 7 seconds. It still didn't begin to shrink until after it took the fifth jab. I then tried this after 9 seconds, but I only got two jabs in before the tree began to wither (not shrink). The time it began to shrink was 10 seconds after sprouting, which matches my previous data. So it seems that health does not decrease as lifespan decreases, nor vice versa.
Considering all of this, I'm thinking that the axe itself is the variable that has the different properties, not the tree. If you chop at your tree while an enemy is "within" it, the enemy will suffer damage and knockback, but the tree will still be chopped. So I'm thinking that at the time of use, the axe has two different flags or whatever active and ready for impact. One checks to see if the axe has made contact with a non-self-tree object, and if that is true, it functions as an attack. The other checks if the axe made contact with a self-tree object, and if that's true, then it chops. It has to be two flags, because otherwise in the above situation you would only either chop the tree or hurt your opponent, not both.
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L Pag
Smash Apprentice
Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but if you cut the tree once, you can throw out a Lloyd at the base of the tree and you'll have enough time to cut the tree down before the Lloyd starts moving and gains a hitbox. I've caught a lot of people off guard with this, and they can both soak up projectiles, so you can wall a lot of people out.
Can I just say:
http://imgur.com/a/5AyNC
Image proof of tree dropping fruit. (Demo Mode, FD-Battlefield (no items))
Someone said the tree can also drop a Maxim Tomato, I've yet to see it happen after chopping around 400 trees.
http://imgur.com/a/5AyNC
Image proof of tree dropping fruit. (Demo Mode, FD-Battlefield (no items))
Someone said the tree can also drop a Maxim Tomato, I've yet to see it happen after chopping around 400 trees.
HeavyLobster
Smash Champion
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I don't believe it's been mentioned in this thread that if you ride Lloid Rocket into the tree you'll bounce up as if you've hit an opponent and not go into helpless state, so having a tree on the ledge you're recovering to could let you stop your Rocket recovery and reduce the risk somewhat of using that move. It can also reduce the risk of using ride-on Lloid Rocket offensively if your opponent is between you and the tree.
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Veggi
Smash Champion
Yeah, this seems like a good idea. I've been using it some, but I hope it doesn't become too easy to deal with after my opponents get used to it. It's fun.
HeavyLobster
Smash Champion
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Just remember never to use ride-on Lloid near the edge/offstage against anyone with a reflector. Ride-on Lloid is still generally risky, and so it shouldn't be used often even when the aforementioned setup is in place, but it does have nice followup potential. It's important to be patient as Villager and not force anything while still taking advantage of opportunities when they present themselves. Nothing Villager has offensively is really reliable, but occasionally you can catch people off guard with a few things.
HeadofHudet
Smash Cadet
I'm very interested in how the metagame will evolve around Timber. I've experimented a bit in the demo and now in the real version with Villager, and Timber is one of my favorite moves.
Villager isn't very mobile, and if you ask me, I'd say that he(/she?)'s terrible in close combat. His grab is awfully slow and his attacks aren't doing a lot of pressure. So my Villager likes to keep itself at a distance, where I fire a rocket whenever I can and react to whatever my opponent does with it. In general it's a hell lot of baits and reads I'm focused on, and Timber is the best bait of them all. Villager is my zoning character, and since Timber is so tremendously powerful it's the biggest game changer of them all when I zone correctly and get the reads.
I'll take one example. Captain Falcon is sent far offstage and has to recover to the ledge. If it's timed right, and it usually is, you will get enough time to plant the seed, sprout it and one chop with the axe before he grabs the ledge. Definitely if you already have a seed near the edge. From there, if he grabs the ledge before the second chop, he'll most likely be scared as hell for the second chop and either roll in or jump. From there it's very easy to react on CF's decision. The jump can be axe'd or fair'd(if he survives you now have a half-chopped Timber that you can force in his face on his second recovery attempt), and the roll-in can be fsmashed and dsmashed easily. It all very much depends on how fast the character recovers, of course, but even the sprout works great to cover the opponents options from the ledge. And yes, even the sprouting is very powerful. This is just one example, because very few people are man enough to challenge Timber, so it's a nice option cover.
Villager isn't very mobile, and if you ask me, I'd say that he(/she?)'s terrible in close combat. His grab is awfully slow and his attacks aren't doing a lot of pressure. So my Villager likes to keep itself at a distance, where I fire a rocket whenever I can and react to whatever my opponent does with it. In general it's a hell lot of baits and reads I'm focused on, and Timber is the best bait of them all. Villager is my zoning character, and since Timber is so tremendously powerful it's the biggest game changer of them all when I zone correctly and get the reads.
I'll take one example. Captain Falcon is sent far offstage and has to recover to the ledge. If it's timed right, and it usually is, you will get enough time to plant the seed, sprout it and one chop with the axe before he grabs the ledge. Definitely if you already have a seed near the edge. From there, if he grabs the ledge before the second chop, he'll most likely be scared as hell for the second chop and either roll in or jump. From there it's very easy to react on CF's decision. The jump can be axe'd or fair'd(if he survives you now have a half-chopped Timber that you can force in his face on his second recovery attempt), and the roll-in can be fsmashed and dsmashed easily. It all very much depends on how fast the character recovers, of course, but even the sprout works great to cover the opponents options from the ledge. And yes, even the sprouting is very powerful. This is just one example, because very few people are man enough to challenge Timber, so it's a nice option cover.
Darklink401
Smash Master
Wow, I legit did NOT know it could drop maxim tomatoes, that is SO cool. Probably a 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 chance or so, I'd assume, since even the fruits are rare.
Oh btw, I love the tree in Sudden Death. See, if you plant it at the start, your opponent will be doing either of three things
1. dashing at you
2. throwing/charging projectiles at you
3. waiting to see what you do
the tree sprouting after you water it (the exact time a decently fast character would take to run up to you) would cause insta-death to the opponent.
The projectiles would be blocked
You have a nice little shield if neither of these things happen, and can throw the gyroid to bait your opponent.
Also hitting someone with the tree feels OH SO GOOD XD
One final thing, though I'm sure it has been mentioned.
Villager Doubles
Tree -> Pocket -> Instadeath tree.
Oh btw, I love the tree in Sudden Death. See, if you plant it at the start, your opponent will be doing either of three things
1. dashing at you
2. throwing/charging projectiles at you
3. waiting to see what you do
the tree sprouting after you water it (the exact time a decently fast character would take to run up to you) would cause insta-death to the opponent.
The projectiles would be blocked
You have a nice little shield if neither of these things happen, and can throw the gyroid to bait your opponent.
Also hitting someone with the tree feels OH SO GOOD XD
One final thing, though I'm sure it has been mentioned.
Villager Doubles
Tree -> Pocket -> Instadeath tree.
shapular
Smash Ace
So, this happened to me today...
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BRB, gonna sell my Smash Bros 3DS right now.
extremechiton
Smash Lord
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id like to see that lol ^_^
extremechiton
Smash Lord
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thats one of my main ways to kill on ssb4. i usually bait thier attack and water the tree, and BOOOM! insta KO
its also a great anti air and it blocks projectiles so you can camp behind it.
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Darklink401
Smash Master
Another good way is to chop once, then bait them to the tree, and chop again. It'll fall before they're prepared, usually.