Villager: timber discussion thread

[gbaespada]

Saw a thread like this about pocket so decided to make this one about timber, so let's discuss this move why don't we.

maybe you can use the watering cans wind box to push the enemy player into the tree sapling while making it grow is that a possibility or has it been disproven

 

[Hong]

I made an elaborate post on my thoughts:

Some theorizing based on a discussion from this thread...

Perhaps we are looking at TImber the wrong way? Prepare for a block of theory.

As many were upset to find out, the tree only lasts for fifteen seconds. Between the setup time, the likelihood the enemy will fall into proper positioning, and the short life-span of the trees, I think we can all agree that hitting the enemy with the fallen tree is going to be immensely unlikely.

But I see there is merit in this ability, yet. Timber does more than just plant trees to chop down: it gives you two new moves, and even generates a few projectiles. From the moment you plant the sprout, the Villager can use the watering can wherever he pleases. It's a unique special in that, at least in the beta build, you can jump around while using it, It has decent pushing power, and It could prove useful for pushing away shielding enemies after feigning a landing aerial.

And of course the most note-worthy benefit is that, after you have watered the tree, you can swing the axe anywhere for the next 15 seconds. The axe is an immensely powerful attack that, while risky on whiff, comes out reasonably fast and can be used in the air. If that's not enough, after you chop the tree down, you get a few wood chips you can throw as a projectile. This works out great, since you can pocket one of them and carry the other. There will be a number of match-ups where the Pocket ability would otherwise have no use, such as against Marth or Little Mac.

What I'm getting at is perhaps there is merit in just throwing up the tree wherever the moment you have the liberty of space. In a few seconds, you'll unlock the axe, and you are free just to leave the tree where it is until it expires, or you can chop it down when it would yield a strategic benefit. As it stands, the Villager is a character who, while lacking reach on a lot of his normals, has a lot of tools to control the tempo of a match. Purely close-quarters characters will want to get in, while ranged characters have to deal with Lloid Rocket (which is seemingly indestructible to other projectiles) and Pocket.

I don't think Timber will be a game-breaking special, but I think it will turn out better than we had imagined as the game evolves.

 

[gbaespada]

Hmm one block of a theory it is, if all you that you have said would be correct timber would be an amazing strategy to use in the right hands.

Also has it been confirmed that enemy projectiles can't pass through the tree or am I wrong.

 

[Hong]

Also has it been confirmed that enemy projectiles can't pass through the tree or am I wrong.

Projectiles and fighters alike.

 

[Veggi]

Characters can't pass through the tree? I'm pretty sure they can. I saw it in the Invitational tournament. O_o

The watering can into sprout attack might be possible, but I feel like it would be very situational. Especially considering characters can shield and air dodge while being pushed back. Does anyone know how lethal the sprout-growing-into-tree attack is?

Personally, I think that the watering can won't be useful. FLUDD in Brawl seems like a much better version of the watering can, admittedly, with less mobility. FLUDD definitely had its uses, but they were mostly attributed to its range, which the watering can doesn't have. Even then, FLUDD wasn't a super great move.

Even if Timber isn't worth using for any reason at all, I think that setting it up so that you can get the axe is going to be worth doing just because there are times where the Villager won't have a reason to do anything else. If the axe isn't that great, it's worth at least having the option plus a tree on the field that has no drawbacks at all. If the axe is good, then that makes it even better.


The tree has a few uses as well.

-Blocking projectiles:

Villager can use the tree to block projectiles while sending out ones of his/her own. In a way, I feel like it's kind of like Substitute in Pokemon. Even if you're not going to be effective, if you have substitute out it is usually best to just attack anyway because they can't do anything to you. Villager can also force approaches if he/she has percent lead, even if the opponent has a strong camping game by using the tree.

-Falcon Punch equivalent:

If Villager keeps the tree hit with the axe once, then he/she can have it on screen and use it if he/she predicts a roll or spot dodge. Unfortunately, Villager would only be able to punish the opponent with Timber if they rolled in the direction it would fall. It might even be too slow to hit with if the Villager gets a read. That's what I'm afraid of.

-Edgeguard:

This seems like one of the more likely ones. Even if it doesn't consistently fall on top of the opponent, it can deter a lot of characters with horizontal recoveries from recovering to the edge or landing their recovery closer to the ground. This could potentially cause players to be forced into free fall from having to end their recovery above the tree. If the opponent is in free fall, that makes them easy to attack for the Villager. If Villager can still use the axe while the tree JUST got cut down, it might bring a very viable use for the axe as well. Having the enemy in free-fall would make them easy to hit with the it.

-Pressure:

If the tree falls on the opponent while they shield or spot dodge, it keeps bouncing, right? If it hits multiple times that would be great for shield damage and pressure. Villager might be able to capitalize on the way the opponent tries to avoid the tree. This part is mostly me guessing because I don't know exaaaaactly how the tree falling works.

-Spawns wood chip items:

This is another pretty realistic option. If Villager only uses Timber for the wood chips, it would still be very beneficial. The reason why is it doesn't matter that much if a projectile does low damage. Peach and Diddy Kong in Brawl had a really great ability to throw items right after shielding. This ups Villager's Out of Shield game by a lot because there is now access to an extremely fast long range attack with almost no lag. If an opponent attacks Villager's shield, Villager can now drop shield and throw the item like Peach or Diddy. This was a great option for both Peach and Diddy. I expect it to be the same for Villager even if there's no glide toss. Villager also lacks a lot of fast close range options with good reach. Now he has one...or two if you use Pocket for the other wood chip.

 

[gbaespada]

Since the tree blocks projectiles and fighters alike that only leaves one way for enemies to come from which is easily punished by the villagers up tilt, up smash, up air and down air. This adds one more reason to fear the villager

 

[Hong]

The tree doesn't have a lot of health.

 

[Aureola]

I was looking through some gameplay videos from the 3DS demo at comic con, and apparently the tree vanishes and the moves reset after a while. I'm not completely sure if it'll be the same later. I can find the video and link it here if needed.

 

[Hong]

It has a life span of 15 seconds.

 

[Aureola]

It has a life span of 15 seconds.

Ah. Well, 15 seconds is long enough to go whack a few people with an axe, and I fully intend of messing with people with that.

 

[Wasoodle]

I really hope they give the tree a longer life span in the final game. The only use I see in timber right now is the axe which seems like Villagers best KO move.

 

[Hong]

Well, if you have KO'd the enemy and are waiting around, my as well collect some wood chips.

 

[JUr]

Hello, I was looking at some new screenshots in a thread and found this:

Depending on the trajectory and with a nice planeation the Timber could be a KO stealer in the center of the stage...

Btw, here's the link of the thread with the screenshots
http://smashboards.com/threads/new-3ds-screenshots.364198/

 

[SpatialPSI]

What about using the tree as stage control? I think on smaller stages if you don't want you opponent to use a platform, you can plant a tree on the area they most likely will get on. This might disrupt some of their strategies for as long as the tree lives.

 

[gbaespada]

Hmm that might just work i love the idea

 

[SpatialPSI]

Is it known whether Villager can use Pocket on a full grown tree? I think it would save a lot of time if you could, allowing it to be moved around the stage.

 

[gbaespada]

Not sure if u can do that because not many people played as villager so we don't have footage of many things that are being speculated but there are videos scattered around youtube that u can hunt for.

 

[SpatialPSI]

I've looked up videos on Youtube and I haven't seen it done so maybe it isn't possible or people haven't been trying it. Either way, I'm sure Timber will find some use somehow. Who knows?

 

[gbaespada]

I've been searching youtube for about an hour and 4 this is the best villager video I've found



youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=DzMaC7uO7l8

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I wonde what are his customizable moves. I thought already these for Timber:

- Fruit Timber - Villager plants a random fruit from the games and grows a Fruit Tree. Produces 3 fruit for you to munch but is less strong than regular Timber. basically the fruit trees from Tortimer Island, but can be set up. Perfect Fruit sometimes drops for more damage recovery. Sometimes Bell Bags drop as dud items to throw on enemies.

- Cedar Timber - Villager plants a Cedar-sapling. More durable due bigger than an average tree. Does more rapid, prickling-like damage (due sprig needles). Has little knockback though.

Also, Villager could have different variants of Axe and Watering Can from the games as well in these customized moves, like the Silver or Gold Axes/Watering Cans.

One more thing, I think the sapling growing to a tree can do damage if the opponent was underneath it when it happens? I think it was potent kind of damage and knockback too.

 

[gbaespada]

I wonde what are his customizable moves. I thought already these for Timber:

- Fruit Timber - Villager plants a random fruit from the games and grows a Fruit Tree. Produces 3 fruit for you to munch but is less strong than regular Timber. basically the fruit trees from Tortimer Island, but can be set up. Perfect Fruit sometimes drops for more damage recovery. Sometimes Bell Bags drop as dud items to throw on enemies.

- Cedar Timber - Villager plants a Cedar-sapling. More durable due bigger than an average tree. Does more rapid, prickling-like damage (due sprig needles). Has little knockback though.

Also, Villager could have different variants of Axe and Watering Can from the games as well in these customized moves, like the Silver or Gold Axes/Watering Cans.

One more thing, I think the sapling growing to a tree can do damage if the opponent was underneath it when it happens? I think it was potent kind of damage and knockback too.

Wow. I love those custom moves totally agree with them also like the fruit tree one.

And also I think I've seen a tree grow and knocking someone up have to look for footage.

Ps. Check out my other thread on the villagers competitive viability

 

[Hong]

It does launch when it grows into a tree, but it's not impressive. At least in the demo.

 

[SpaceJell0]

It does launch when it grows into a tree, but it's not impressive. At least in the demo.

Interesting, also I never noticed if this happens but does the Sapling whither away like the tree or not? Because not withering would be a big plus.

I predict all three parts of the move will add depth to Villager's offensive and edge guarding tools

 

[Hong]

Interesting, also I never noticed if this happens but does the Sapling whither away like the tree or not? Because that could be a big plus.

I predict all three parts of the move will add depth to Villager's offensive and edge guarding tools

Sapling dies eventually. Think it's 30 sec. It is longer than the tree, but still timed.

 

[SpaceJell0]

Sapling dies eventually. Think it's 30 sec. It is longer than the tree, but still timed.

Really? Well I guess it could be planted on the edge of a stage or it's platforms and left there for better stage control than the attackable tree.

 

[Hong]

Really? Well I guess it could be planted on the edge of a stage or it's platforms and left there for better stage control than the attackable tree.

Indeed. As always, I advise people to just chuck it somewhere whenever they have free. As long as you are in no danger, you don't have much to lose. It's going to be unlikely that we will be hitting with the falling tree to often, so it's best to start focusing on the utility you get:

The watering can (pushes foes away, can run around and jump while using it)
The axe (immensely powerful)
And of course the wood-chips should you ever chop the tree down. One for the pocket, one to carry around.

 

[SpaceJell0]

Indeed. As always, I advise people to just chuck it somewhere whenever they have free. As long as you are in no danger, you don't have much to lose. It's going to be unlikely that we will be hitting with the falling tree to often, so it's best to start focusing on the utility you get:

The watering can (pushes foes away, can run around and jump while using it)
The axe (immensely powerful)
And of course the wood-chips should you ever chop the tree down. One for the pocket, one to carry around.

Sakurai really should of told us about the wood chips considering it basically goes hand in hand with the Pocket ability like you said.
And also don't forget that the tree can edge guard off the ledge, basically securing Villager's safety near the edge.
I've also seen some gameplay of the axe, how much ending lag does it have approximately? It looks similar to the lag on Marth's FAir

 

[Hong]

It's quite laggy on whiff. It's a bit longer than that.

 

[SpaceJell0]

So almost like Mario's FAir where it's risky to pull out due to lag but it punishes HARD when pulled off?

 

[Hong]

Essentially.

It's a pretty sweet deal for the Villager. In the demo, I was able to "chase" my Lloid Rocket. Punish dodges with attacks during the recovery frames, punish shielding with a grab. Essentially, Lloid Rocket is a mixup tool, forcing your opponent into making a decision you can punish.

The axe is only one of many ways you get make them regret it.

 

[SpaceJell0]

Yeah it surprised me how easily you can catch up to Lloid, it's definitely one of Villager's most effective ways to pressure his opponent. The watering can also seems like a nice pressure tool as well. It's basically a better FLUDD that comes out quickly and is great for scaring opponents with moves like the Raptor Boost and several Dash Attacks. You basically force them to use a different move out of fear for a punish

 

[Hong]

I think the best way to use the watering can is from above VS a shielding opponent.

Of course, if you come down on an opponent, they will attempt to shield grab. With the watering can, you can push them away, which is safe because you can move while doing so. It's going to be great for whenever you need to regain stage control.

 

[gbaespada]

Does anyone know the time of shielding lag after using any of the three steps of timber? Just curious,anyways i think that the villagers best stage would be battlefield because of its relative small size and the three small platforms which the villager could use to his advantage.The villager could use the tree in this stage as a zoning oriented tool allowing the villager to position the enemy in favorable locations. What do you guys think?

 

[gbaespada]

Spent most of my afternoon looking up some videos on the villager, you know like stuff we can analyze and I've made a Playlist of about 36 videos. So here's to more villager discoveries lol.

Edit: I don't own any of the videos they belong to their respective owners.

 

[Jellyfishn]

I loved watching that Coney video. His Villager is amazing!

I haven't looked through all these yet but any uses of timber in particular that are worth noting?

 

[gbaespada]

Haven't watched em either but I'll get to them today

 

[iFezZz]

Could you, Cut the tree and pocket the top half? then plant another tree? I feel like that could be something. Also if you can't just out right cut it and pocket it. You could try jumping and before you land hitting the tree with the axe maybe cancelling your landing lag so that you can then pocket the tree.

Sorry for not posting in here first it just looked dead since no one has posted in 23 days.

 

[Jellyfishn]

That would be great if you could pocket the top and plant another! I feel like it would be a lot more useful if you could carry it around in your pocket like that. Edge gaurding....

 

[iFezZz]

That's kind of my plan, because you would pocket it like shamus holds her charge, because from what I understand is the tree falling on you hits super hard. So why not have a tree waiting in your pocket.

 

[Ryan.]

Timber is such a unique move, I just wish it didn't wear away as quickly as it does. It could definitely have multiple purposes, though.