Vidjo's tourney stage list discussion

[Overswarm]

You under some misconception that we dont like most of the stages are think they are stupid and decide to just get rid of them. We play with a lot of those stages on, and i think they're fun. You also seem to think they we are pullin elitist cards and deciding we should be the end all say in it, which is not true at all. But for some of these stages, it is clear to the majority of the players who have brawl (yes we talk to a good amount people outside of our group) that some stages are just not for tournaments, as fun or inventive as they are.

No one has played much outside of their group at all. That makes their opinion just that: opinion.

You have a biased opinion, moreso than you assume we have, about the stages because you are quite known for favoring levels that do not follow the guidelines of fair, balanced, and undisturbed tournament play. Hell, you even opted for Space Armada to be CP and Norfair to be Neutral, lol.

How is my opinion biased? I don't have an opinion in the first place. I say "don't ban stages until you can see that htey are banned via tournament play".

Besides, anyone in the back room knows that while my particular strategy is to play on counterpicks, they also know that I heavily advocated for the banning of stages that I played that I felt were unfair; I counter-picked Kongo Falls all the time and told them openly it should be banned.

Also, when did I advocate for norfair to be neutral or space armada to be CP?

I really do applaud you for comming to the defense of these ridiculous stages, because without people like you to balance out excessivly anal people, we would sadly have only a few levels legal. Just don't go assuming that you know by what means we debate and select levels. If you want your stages, run a tourney, but we have been talking to people in many many states and ties to MLG about the fairest setup possible.

ties to MLG? You mean JV? Because if you don't, you aren't talking to ties for MLG.

Besides, JV has it tougher; he isn't a community. He's going to have to ban stages prematurely because it is his job to make a competitive ruleset. If MLG picks up Brawl, he'll have to be conservative. Just how it goes.

We don't have to be.

Until we see the game actually played on a wide scale in tournament environments, we won't know what needs to be banned. Just because one of your friends found a cool strategy on a stage doesn't mean others won't say "duh" and get around it. Just because you can't deal with a hazard on one stage doesn't mean the hazard is bad.

The US version is apparently going to be tweaked, but we're just trying to get a fari assessment to what we know so far. (although i doubt levels will change much or at all)

We don't know anything so far except for what our limited experiences tell us. We can hypothesize about all the stages, and we can see a few obvious ones. Hyrule Temple will obviously be banned due to the inability for most of the cast to catch up to characters like Pit or Fox or Sonic if they get the lead. Past that? Nothing is known and it is foolish to think otherwise.

 

[Zjiin]

Also, when did I advocate for norfair to be neutral or space armada to be CP?

---->

Llat Cruise

Could be neutral, but recovery issues (and also background being very distracting and bright) could easily put this on a counterpick list.

Norfair

Could be neutral, but the large number of hazards leads me to believe it will be counterpick. The hazards are very slight, and very, very easy to dodge, but still are a large part of the stage.

ties to MLG? You mean JV? Because if you don't, you aren't talking to ties for MLG.

Besides, JV has it tougher; he isn't a community. He's going to have to ban stages prematurely because it is his job to make a competitive ruleset. If MLG picks up Brawl, he'll have to be conservative. Just how it goes.

Yes, JV. MLG has already stated they are picking up brawl.

Just because one of your friends found a cool strategy on a stage doesn't mean others won't say "duh" and get around it. Just because you can't deal with a hazard on one stage doesn't mean the hazard is bad.

Don't be so ignorant. Nothing is being done to stages based on "cool" tactics or "lame" hazzards. You make yourself look idiotic when you assume that these are our personal preferences.


I have to give it to you, these last few posts of yours have been hilarious though.

 

[Overswarm]

Originally Posted by Overswarm
Llat Cruise

Could be neutral, but recovery issues (and also background being very distracting and bright) could easily put this on a counterpick list.

Norfair

Could be neutral, but the large number of hazards leads me to believe it will be counterpick. The hazards are very slight, and very, very easy to dodge, but still are a large part of the stage.

You do realize this is from a thread pertaining to early tournament stage lists and not final lists, right?

The fact that I said Lylat cruise and norfair could be neutral should give credence to my argument; they obviously aren't broken stages and the hazards are light, so put them on neutral in a few tournaments and see how they go.


I'm not assuming anything, btw. That's the point. I don't assume a stage is broken until proven. I'm not assuming that your only source of evidence is coming from a large pool of friendlies from a small pool of people.

 

[that 1 guy]

It just seems way too early to be making the bans that we are. I don't care how much you have played these past few weeks it's still too early. A large majority of the community hasn't gotten their hands on the game yet, so how can the few that do really think they have the stages figured out? When you add it up it's a ridiculously small amount of man hours compared to what was put into melee before we got the stage lists we do now. You guys don't know jack I don't care who you talked to or how much you have played so far.

 

[radical00edward]

hm, theres probably going to be "official tournament" stages built in the stage builder too..

 

[Droly]

It just seems way too early to be making the bans that we are. I don't care how much you have played these past few weeks it's still too early. A large majority of the community hasn't gotten their hands on the game yet, so how can the few that do really think they have the stages figured out? When you add it up it's a ridiculously small amount of man hours compared to what was put into melee before we got the stage lists we do now. You guys don't know jack I don't care who you talked to or how much you have played so far.

you are very wrong.

 

[DrewB008]

why would we waste a tourney playing on levels that everybody who consistently plays the game think are not neutral? i dont care if people want some sort of test for future tournaments, everyone wants the tournament they host to be competitive. we dont know everything so far, thats obvious, nobody needs to make that argument anymore. thats why people make stage lists based on what they do know at the time, which is all that is happening now. certain hosts have certain feelings on what warrants a ban and what makes a level worthy of being neutral, and they put stages in their respective categories based on what theyve seen. if we see more, in the future, changes can be made, but theres no need to waste a perfectly good tournament just to run an experiment for future tournaments.

 

[Hoefler]

Drew, won't there be a TON of tournaments other than this one? I for one think it makes sense to screw around with stage stuff now instead of later just because we all know there will be many tournaments for this new game.

Although I do suppose that if we were to **** around with stages and what not that there should be no money involved!

 

[Droly]

why would we waste a tourney playing on levels that everybody who consistently plays the game think are not neutral? i dont care if people want some sort of test for future tournaments, everyone wants the tournament they host to be competitive. we dont know everything so far, thats obvious, nobody needs to make that argument anymore. thats why people make stage lists based on what they do know at the time, which is all that is happening now. certain hosts have certain feelings on what warrants a ban and what makes a level worthy of being neutral, and they put stages in their respective categories based on what theyve seen. if we see more, in the future, changes can be made, but theres no need to waste a perfectly good tournament just to run an experiment for future tournaments.

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[Overswarm]

why would we waste a tourney playing on levels that everybody who consistently plays the game think are not neutral? i dont care if people want some sort of test for future tournaments, everyone wants the tournament they host to be competitive. we dont know everything so far, thats obvious, nobody needs to make that argument anymore. thats why people make stage lists based on what they do know at the time, which is all that is happening now. certain hosts have certain feelings on what warrants a ban and what makes a level worthy of being neutral, and they put stages in their respective categories based on what theyve seen. if we see more, in the future, changes can be made, but theres no need to waste a perfectly good tournament just to run an experiment for future tournaments.

Doing that harms not only the current tournament scene, but cripples the future tournament scene as well.

Pokémon Stadium 2 has just as much possibility to be neutral as it does to be banned right now due to the unique factors of the stage. That, depending on the community and the reactions to it in tournament play, could go either way.

No one is asking for a TO to say "all stages neutral". What people are asking is that a TO not ban a stage because someone says "I don't like it", regardless of their reasoning. If there is the possibility of a stage having more to it than currently meets the eye, if there is a possibility that certain stages can be competitive, we have to look at that stage through tournament play.

TOs banning a lot of stages do the opposite; this is especially true now because no one has the game yet. This will change drastically by this time next week, and we will be able to make discussions based on LARGE groups of friendlies that will give us a BASIC idea of how to use Brawl stages in tournament play.

With that basic idea, we can say "Okay, we know New Pork City and Hyrule Temple can't be played, we know Flatzone II isn't good for competitive play..." and hit all of the obvious ones. No one is going to say "Hyrule Temple would be an awesome competitive map" after realizing that Pit can arrow you for forever and fly around the map as he pleases just to run the timer. No one will watch Sonic zip away after getting only one hit and say "I like it".

For stages like Yoshi's Island (Pipes), this is another matter entirely. Stages that have even a small group of people say "what is the problem with it?" need to have tournament viable proof that the stage is imbalanced, otherwise it is just a group of people guessing. That's why the SBR didn't release a ruleset the day after Brawl imports came to America. We know you have to wait until you have evidence to ban these things, and currently no one has anything other than friendlies.

There will be many, many tournaments in the future. Having a large number of stages isn't a "waste" this early in the game. You might not LIKE playing on certain stages, but stages that are obviously broken don't last long in competitive play.

Pick out the obvious neutrals, maybe add in stages like lylat cruise or delfino plaza if you want to test the limits of neutral stages, and leave the counterpick section very large.

If a stage needs to be removed, those asking for it can then point to tournament placings and to videos.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm gonna hafta agree with everything Overswarm just said.

There are 10 stages that are obviously Banned. Besides those, all should be CP or Neutral and demoted as the need arises. Once a stage is Banned, it sort of seals its fate forever since we stop collecting data on it.

 

[Zjiin]

why would we waste a tourney playing on levels that everybody who consistently plays the game think are not neutral? i dont care if people want some sort of test for future tournaments, everyone wants the tournament they host to be competitive. we dont know everything so far, thats obvious, nobody needs to make that argument anymore. thats why people make stage lists based on what they do know at the time, which is all that is happening now. certain hosts have certain feelings on what warrants a ban and what makes a level worthy of being neutral, and they put stages in their respective categories based on what theyve seen. if we see more, in the future, changes can be made, but theres no need to waste a perfectly good tournament just to run an experiment for future tournaments.

Exactly. Competitive players know what fair competition demands as standards. We know that some of the stages are just TOO distracting and interfering, so why would time be wasted on watching them ruin a tournament and then just looking at each other saying "well, we all saw that coming."

I agree that a lot of the counter picks are still up in the air, and need more analyzing, but neutrals should be no brainers. Does it interfere with the fight? Do you take damage from any part of the stage? Is the shape of the stage going to enforce anything other that straight play? No hazards should ever make it into a neutral stage because one way or another, because this character will be better at avoiding them than that character, thus defining an unbalanced stage.

Same lines go along for obviously banned stages. Is it hard to get in a hit while the stage pummels you? Does the stage ever give one side advantage over another with bonuses? Is there a part of the stage that is an instant KO with little to no time to do anything about it? Does it give those who would run out the timer a HUGE advantage? Etc...

Yeah, we can probably keep a ridiculous stage on, and after about a year or two of working on it, people might be able to get away from the stage hazards easily because of the time they put on playing that stage. That also means that we'll have a year or two of terrible competition because we're STRAINING to make these stages work, for no good reason other than to raise the number of legal stages turned on. It's just not logical.

 

[SamDvds]

i dont think stages neccessarily have to be proved or tested in tournaments to be declaired banned or legal. if you play friendlies with competitive players, it becomes obvious which stages are giving unfair wins, unfair losses, etc. we dont have to test smashballs in tournaments to know that they will be broken in competitive play. I personally like them in FFAs or teams, but we already know Final Smashes will alter the outcome of the match, just like a stage that has proven to hand out un earned victories in friendlies.

 

[Overswarm]

i dont think stages neccessarily have to be proved or tested in tournaments to be declaired banned or legal. if you play friendlies with competitive players, it becomes obvious which stages are giving unfair wins, unfair losses, etc. we dont have to test smashballs in tournaments to know that they will be broken in competitive play. I personally like them in FFAs or teams, but we already know Final Smashes will alter the outcome of the match, just like a stage that has proven to hand out un earned victories in friendlies.

It's this kind of ignorant and arrogant mindset that leads to premature banning of stages.


No one, no matter how competitive they are, knows what stages need to be banned and what don't.

There are very, very few no-brainers.

Stages are selected in this fashion:

Neutrals- Stages that can be the "first" stage in a set and work out regardless of character choice

We couldn't do that in Melee, so we made it broad and had several stages.

Counterpicks- stages that just didn't work as neutrals

banned - stages that just didn't work as counterpicks


Instead of putting stages through a filter, you're trying to seperate them piece by piece yourself. We have a natural process that shows, in no uncertain terms, what should or should not be banned, counterpick, or neutral.

At Vidjo's we played with practically every stage on neutral. We learned preferences and we learned stages that were bad. It helped our knowledge base. We discussed stages that were frequently counterpicked. We just let the process unfold.

If every tournament did something similar, it wouldn't be long before we'd realize what worked and what didn't.

What will take so much time is that tournaments are banning things already out of the blue just because they don't like them.

 

[Thinkaman]

No, what Sam is saying is that competitive friendlys are perfectly valid for determining stages as well, which is obviously true...

 

[Zjiin]

It's this kind of ignorant and arrogant mindset that leads to premature banning of stages.


No one, no matter how competitive they are, knows what stages need to be banned and what don't.

There are very, very few no-brainers.

Stages are selected in this fashion:

Neutrals- Stages that can be the "first" stage in a set and work out regardless of character choice

We couldn't do that in Melee, so we made it broad and had several stages.

Counterpicks- stages that just didn't work as neutrals

banned - stages that just didn't work as counterpicks


Instead of putting stages through a filter, you're trying to seperate them piece by piece yourself. We have a natural process that shows, in no uncertain terms, what should or should not be banned, counterpick, or neutral.

At Vidjo's we played with practically every stage on neutral. We learned preferences and we learned stages that were bad. It helped our knowledge base. We discussed stages that were frequently counterpicked. We just let the process unfold.

If every tournament did something similar, it wouldn't be long before we'd realize what worked and what didn't.

What will take so much time is that tournaments are banning things already out of the blue just because they don't like them.

By that logic, i don't understand why these levels were banned.

75m aka Donkey Kong/Mario level Banned
Electroplankton Banned
Flat Zone 2 Banned
Mario Bros. Banned
Mushroomy Kingdom 2 Banned
New Pork City Banned
Spear Pillar Banned
Temple Banned
Wario Ware Banned​

Unless, these were discussed in a previous tournament and then that information was applied to Vidjo's tourney. According to you, they should have all be on and then talked about to find out what did and didn't work.

 

[Overswarm]

By that logic, i don't understand why these levels were banned.

75m aka Donkey Kong/Mario level Banned
Electroplankton Banned
Flat Zone 2 Banned
Mario Bros. Banned
Mushroomy Kingdom 2 Banned
New Pork City Banned
Spear Pillar Banned
Temple Banned
Wario Ware Banned​

Unless, these were discussed in a previous tournament and then that information was applied to Vidjo's tourney. According to you, they should have all be on and then talked about to find out what did and didn't work.

They shouldn't be banned, in my opinion, until competition shows they should be.

However, there are obvious stages that can skip the process because they are so incredibly obvious.

Why aren't smash balls on? Why aren't items on?

The same reason we can't play Temple. They BREAK what competitive gaming is.

INDENT]75m aka Donkey Kong/Mario level Banned
Haven't played it, can't comment.

Electroplankton Banned
Who knows?

Flat Zone 2 Banned
Ultra small + ultra hazards + unavoidable hazards is the tri-pronged attack to competitive gaming. If it was JUST ultra small, if it was JUST full of strong hazards, if it JUST had a few unavoidable hazards... it would have to be debated and observed. All three together? Makes it one of the "obvious" choices.

Mario Bros. Banned
haven't played it

Mushroomy Kingdom 2 Banned
haven't played it

New Pork City Banned
Spear Pillar Banned
Temple Banned

The size of these three is the main culprit. Run and shoot strategies dominate the game and are unbreakable; this has not changed since Melee. This is a consistent theme.

The "cave of immortality" that is frequent here is another issue; if one is at a high percentage, they can survive there for long periods of time in which the player with less % is penalized.

This leads to long, boring matches that often are one-sided and the opponent has no recourse. This has, was, and would be again if it had the chance the perfect competitive strategy for players that play characters like Pit or Sonic.

Spear Pillar's very large hazards are also a big deal. Time slowing down is not a good thing, as it changes the actual way the game is played in a way that is totally out of the player's hands.


Wario Ware Banned[/INDENT]

It gives you items of kills you. The stage hazards are unavoidable, the rewards are random (you get star, he gets giant mushroom).



I had another post but it got deleted.

Thinkaman:

Tournament play only; competitive friendlies not only aren't ever competitive in the same way a tournament is, but they are limited in who plays what. Limitation does not bring about balance.

 

[Zjiin]

For a guy who sure knows what's not broken, you sure haven't tested out enough levels.

 

[Overswarm]

For a guy who sure knows what's not broken, you sure haven't tested out enough levels.

You're assuming the burden of proof is on me. It isn't. I'm saying that things shouldn't be banned. You're saying they should. Stages, for lack of a better phrase, are innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Zjiin]

You're assuming the burden of proof is on me. It isn't. I'm saying that things shouldn't be banned. You're saying they should. Stages, for lack of a better phrase, are innocent until proven guilty.

Overswarm, you're basically saying

"I don't have proof or the knowledge to defend or attack a potential neutral stage, a potential counterpick stage, or a potential banned stage."

Which is fine, innocent until proven guilty is a fine way to go about things (for some people). I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread knows where you stand and that you plan on adding no information for or against stages yet. So what else are you trying to add to that?

The rest of us would like to have a discussion of what stages feel like what so far. If you don't want to add anything more than "you're making judgments too hastily," fine, but we got it. We know where you stand. Now let us talk about something with substance, instead of battling with your neutrality.

 

[Overswarm]

Overswarm, you're basically saying

"I don't have proof or the knowledge to defend or attack a potential neutral stage, a potential counterpick stage, or a potential banned stage."

Which is fine, innocent until proven guilty is a fine way to go about things (for some people). I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread knows where you stand and that you plan on adding no information for or against stages yet. So what else are you trying to add to that?

The rest of us would like to have a discussion of what stages feel like what so far. If you don't want to add anything more than "you're making judgments too hastily," fine, but we got it. We know where you stand. Now let us talk about something with substance, instead of battling with your neutrality.

That wouldn't be a problem, except your discussions have a great effect, or could in the future, on tournament play. You and many others seem all to happy to ban stages that you merely do not like; I am the opposite and choose to ask for proof rather than casual observation.

 

[Droly]

pokemon stadium 2 - ever hear of Game n watch Uair?

 

[Overswarm]

pokemon stadium 2 - ever hear of Game n watch Uair?

Yeah. I've heard of Jiggly's rising pound too.




Hey, did you know Sonic can stall underneath any stage with one of his B moves? Better ban any stage that has space underneath it

 

[Zjiin]

That wouldn't be a problem, except your discussions have a great effect, or could in the future, on tournament play. You and many others seem all to happy to ban stages that you merely do not like; I am the opposite and choose to ask for proof rather than casual observation.

Still doesn't prove that you are contributing whatsoever to anything.

Yeah. I've heard of Jiggly's rising pound too.

Hey, did you know Sonic can stall underneath any stage with one of his B moves? Better ban any stage that has space underneath it

Good going looking like an asshole. Droly isn't talking about stall tactics. G&W's uair kills on PS2 VERY easily. A great example of people who havn't tested out the game enough an still just shoot their opinions everywhere.

 

[DrewB008]

ps2 wont be neutral because, the stage changes are very drastic compared to the changes in melee. the air one actually changes the physics of the game, and appears randomly. the stage may or may not provide enormous advantage to certain characters that benefit from this transformation. A completely random, very influential aspect of the level makes it unworthy of neutrality.

DONE

 

[that 1 guy]

the thing is if you are going to ban a stage we want good reasons. Especially those of us that haven't played the game that much. That means we need better arguments then, "your wrong" or "ever hear of this move." I mean at least give us evidence as to why we are wrong. Also things like, "nobody likes this stage" is not evidence either. That seems to be the case with the electroplankton stage.

I can handle explenations about how game & watch's up air kills at nothing percents on a certain lvl, or the stage is too large so the fast character can get a hit in and run the rest of the game.

 

[Overswarm]

Still doesn't prove that you are contributing whatsoever to anything.

Who said I was trying to contribute? I'm trying to prevent hte calling for banning of stages just yet >_>

Good going looking like an asshole. Droly isn't talking about stall tactics. G&W's uair kills on PS2 VERY easily. A great example of people who havn't tested out the game enough an still just shoot their opinions everywhere.

GJ diverting the curse filter?


I don't know everything... that's my point. You don't either.

 

[Zjiin]

the thing is if you are going to ban a stage we want good reasons. Especially those of us that haven't played the game that much. That means we need better arguments then, "your wrong" or "ever hear of this move." I mean at least give us evidence as to why we are wrong. Also things like, "nobody likes this stage" is not evidence either. That seems to be the case with the electroplankton stage.

I can handle explenations about how game & watch's up air kills at nothing percents on a certain lvl, or the stage is too large so the fast character can get a hit in and run the rest of the game.

Alright, Electroplankton (for example) is banned because Sonic cannot use his spin move on it. He will glitch out and just run off the stage going straight while ignoring the platforms. Also, i fyou hit someone with the spin attack, you fly up and die, even at 0%. There's a good chance this will be fixed in the US version, but we're running on just pre-release info.

No one's trying to make permanent bans right now, but we have a good idea what is just not going to work. People like overswarm are running on the assumption that we ban it, just cause we don't like it. False. If we had it our way, every stage would be legal and fair, but it isn't.

 

[SamDvds]

i think ppl who havent played the game or havent tested out all the stages for themselves should just not post in this thread until they have the game. just because a stage LOOKS like it will be neutral or not ban-worthy doesnt mean anything until you play it. I loved how Pokemon Stadum 2 looked until i played on it and absolutely hated it. I thought Sky World looked amazing and possibly neutral until i tested it and saw how crappy of a stage it was, and everyone else playing agreed. Shadow Moses looked like it would be alot worse of a stage than it actually was. making assumptions off videos does not validate any opinions or arguments.

 

[Overswarm]

i think ppl who havent played the game or havent tested out all the stages for themselves should just not post in this thread until they have the game. just because a stage LOOKS like it will be neutral or not ban-worthy doesnt mean anything until you play it. I loved how Pokemon Stadum 2 looked until i played on it and absolutely hated it. I thought Sky World looked amazing and possibly neutral until i tested it and saw how crappy of a stage it was, and everyone else playing agreed. Shadow Moses looked like it would be alot worse of a stage than it actually was. making assumptions off videos does not validate any opinions or arguments.

I don't believe there is anyone here that hasn't played it.... and even if they haven't, they are probably those that should be asking the most questions as they are the ones being pushed around.

 

[BIG C]

so like for ppl that want reasoning i'll go through it.

75m - The minute I looked at that stage I was like this stage is so cool but, never gonna work in tourny. The stage is the 2nd level of Donkey Kong arcade game, it is clearly much too large and has too many platforms to not be a run away camp stage. *Donkey Kong Intro plays* Oh the bouncy things come out in this too just like the arcade game wonder what they do *OW OW* ohhhh they hit you for a considerable amount of damage and knockback. Hey Donkey Kong is moving in and out of the background while the bouncy things are here I'm going to go see what DK is up to *OW OW* ohhh so DK hits me for considerable damage and knockback too O WAIT!!!! DK hits me into the bouncy thing which hits me back into DK and kills me AMAZING stage.

overall size and platformness make it a heavily camp stage and hazards are ridic. that and all the walk off ledges are you know really cool as well.

Big Blue - Road is almost inescapable kill unless you are in front of the cars plus the camping we had on it in melee.

Corneria - This stage was obviously borderline broken in melee, in Brawl it is defintely broken you have the campfest it was in melee plus a permanent wall that all infinites will work on.

Distant Planet - banned at my tourny because of the stage items and an instant KO and to me an instant KO no matter how hard to fall into it is, is a tourny no go for me.

Electroplankton - confuses moves FTL plus is overall a huge camp stage.

Flat Zone 2 - Oh wow they increased the size of flat zone AWESOME right? I think not, the stage changes backgrounds throughout the match, which starts as a fiery building with a trampoline that ppl can jump on to a kitchen with a giant chef that throws stuff at you that can kill. Then, you get to a jungle land where there is a multi platform stage with 2 guys with chairs that move up and down the chair guys can combo you to death in this box of doom.

Great Sea - I LOVE THIS STAGE, but the cannonballs deal 55 damage and kill when they hit, past 50% on the flipper u could mess up and die. At any point on the stage that the boat is moving you get hit for hella damage and more than likely death. when u hit the rock it is basically pokemon stadium times 10 in camping. I still think it could be CP but for the time being it is banned.

Mario Bros - The Mario Brothers arcade stage, COOL, I really like this stage as well but, the pow is pretty ridiculous like in 64 the items on this stage destroy everyone with the walk off ledges.

Mushroomy Kingdom - The stage is really cool no doubt. The first level of Super Mario Bros. after decades of lying dormant is now a desert. The pipes on this stage act as walls for infinites if you get infinited on either side the pipes you could be inifinited to death either by infinite to backthrow or just infinite until you die and they don't. The blocks lead to untimely deaths in the holes of the stage.

New Pork City - Temple with a bajillion platforms. The stage is just too huge and sooo much camping would happen it wouldn't be funny.

Port Town - Another stage I am unsure of banworthiness, just because of lack of exp. on it, this is one of the few stages I actually dislike in this game but, I do know that the cars kill at low percents, the stage is huge, and at points there are giant holes in the floor that will promote camping. Also, from what Overswarm says there is a wall that appears that I have no idea about.

Rumble Falls - Icicle mountain 2 but with spikes and stuff theat if you jump in the wrong place will kill you.

Shadow Moses - Heavy character central, yet again a stage that I really like but the walls allow for infinites and completely destroy chars w/o vertical KO plus the ceiling is mad high. Basically, this stage is just like hey you have a vertical KO move you win unless they destroy the walls everytime they come up. And having to destroy the walls before being able to kill is definitely a crippling factor to chars.

Spear Pillar - Huge and Temple-ish stage hazards are too much to handle time slowing down and going upside down and controls being reversed is ridic.

Temple - may be back on but i still think fox will rule this stage.

The summit - changing physics mid match is weak. destructable platform and run around stage is mad wack as well i havent played heree in awhile hard to picture the stage well atm. instant KO same thing as distant planet for me.

WarioWare- I <3 this stage prolly my 2nd fav stage in the game. mini games interrupt match and kill ppl rewards for winning are random and could be a giant mushroom or a star.

Mario Circuit - MY FAVORITE STAGE. banned because it obviously promotes camping with 2 safe zones the karts aren't that bad but kinda bad. Walk Off ledges are mad weak.

Skyworld - I dunno could be counter I personally dislike it. It's temple-ish but the destructable plats fro ppl all the time, and since teching isnt spot on right now ppl get stage spiked all day.

BoE - I didn't think it was banworthy I dunno tho. Walk off ledges are pretty wack. the gap promotes camping but comes back. In the future I think it will be CP but prolly banned for awhile.

Stadium 2 - another one I'm not sure about ban on. but with moves killing ridiculously easy on the gravity one its pretty bad. the electric thing would be fine to me if there was a platform on the right side and not 2 in the middle. I think the rock stage or w/e it is is fine though.

Onett - Camping and infinites, the same reason as melee just sux that there are alot more infinites in this game other than fox.

 

[Zjiin]

BigC, you just opened up a whole can of whoop-*** on yourself. Your reasons are based on how you feel towards stuff, which is debateable opinion. I'm gonna duck outta this hizzy before i get hit with incoming fire.

/unsubscribes.

 

[Kel]

I respect Big C's decisions and agree with him for the most part. I also believe that things will pop up in the game that we overlooked, thus making stages more broken or less broken.

stadium 1 and 2 are the same to me. Just think about what you do before you do it. (I'm not arguing this, just stating my OPINION)

 

[BIG C]

rofl Kel I'm not gonna lie the first list I made was revised after vidjo's tourny cuz ppl thought stuff was mad broken like personally I haven't seen any evidence to ban PS2, mario circuit, or BoE. That is my opinion though I went on the beliefs of other ppl that have played the game at least as much as i have and joel who was at the tourny to ban those stages.

 

[DrewB008]

ps2 is not neutral, other than that i dont care where it goes. i stated why earlier.