VGBootCamp: Regarding Project M

[Ura]

Why wouldn't Project M count as a derivative work? You've already given examples of Project M's copyright infringement and Project M does much more than a Game Genie could do.

The Micro Star v. FormGen Inc. court case is a much better comparison.

From what I gathered from that article, the company that made the game had a build editor feature that the company encouraged players to use and another company collected about 300 levels and sold them which lead to the owners of the game suing them. Obviously, that's going to be a big problem if your going to sell a copyrighted product. That's not even debatable.

With PM, their not even re-releasing Brawl or trying to make money off it. They even encourage the use of having a legit Brawl CD to play the game on. If anything, their helping Nintendo out by increasing sales to an otherwise outdated game. Like I said before, the people who made PM made the mod for Smash fans to enjoy. Their not trying to kill off SSB4 or any other Smash game which Nintendo seems to think.

tourney locator on youtube still does P:M. Sethalon, the roy player, frequents these guys check it in place of VGBC for P:M gameplay.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuBhMqosgW-ECZjJZ9pv0Dg

I'll be sure to check them out frequently. Glad theirs a channel that supports PM on YT.

 

[MegaMissingno]

And the Youtube vids are now gone. No word on that promised mirror either, what gives?

 

[LimitCrown]

From what I gathered from that article, the company that made the game had a build editor feature that the company encouraged players to use and another company collected about 300 levels and sold them which lead to the owners of the game suing them. Obviously, that's going to be a big problem if your going to sell a copyrighted product. That's not even debatable.

With PM, their not even re-releasing Brawl or trying to make money off it. They even encourage the use of having a legit Brawl CD to play the game on. If anything, their helping Nintendo out by increasing sales to an otherwise outdated game. Like I said before, the people who made PM made the mod for Smash fans to enjoy. Their not trying to kill off SSB4 or any other Smash game which Nintendo seems to think.

You aren't seeing my point. Originally, Micro Star used the Galoob ruling to say that what they were doing was not copyright infringement because their product was not a derivative; the district court agreed and said that the product was not a derivative. However, the case was appealed and the United States Court of Appeals overruled the district court in favor of FormGen Inc. Obviously, Project M would not qualify as being an example of fair use. Also, why wouldn't Project M be considered as a derivative? Just because Project M isn't sold for money doesn't mean it isn't copyright infringement.

 

[MegaMissingno]

If Nintendo was going to sue they would've done so a long time ago. I don't see why everyone's suddenly so worried about it now after all this time. Least of all GIMR, he was never concerned with it before. Why now?

 

[Ura]

You aren't seeing my point. Originally, Micro Star used the Galoob ruling to say that what they were doing was not copyright infringement because their product was not a derivative; the district court agreed and said that the product was not a derivative. However, the case was appealed and the United States Court of Appeals overruled the district court in favor of FormGen Inc. Obviously, Project M would not qualify as being an example of fair use. Also, why wouldn't Project M be considered as a derivative? Just because Project M isn't sold for money doesn't mean it isn't copyright infringement.

Well, if it's worth mentioning, the 2 of the 4 criteria for Fair Use sorta justifies PM

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether it is commercial in nature
2. the nature of the copyrighted work
3. the amount and substantiality of the copied material in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
4. the effect of the use on the potential market for the copyrighted work

1. and 4. would support PM's existence. They don't sell the mod for money and the game doesn't effect Nintendo's business as a whole because as I mentioned earlier, people who want/don't want to buy SSB4 will buy it/not buy it regardless of PM. Not sure about 2. and 3. though their can be an argument made for it.

But really. All this legal business is just driving me nuts. I just don't see why Nintendo can't just leave the PM community in peace. Really, that's all the community as a a whole wants. They don't have to view us as trying to ruin Brawl/SSB4, were just trying to enjoy our own game. Other companies have come out and embraced fan made mods of their games, I don't see why Nintendo can't do the same. Really, that's all their is to it. We just want to be left alone.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Actually, in the case of Tournaments, Nintendo is not directly taking out PM.

Nintendo can't support PM without opening the way to more hackers and modders to mess with their games.
(Though considering the difficulty of getting third party developers, I don't really know why they don't roll the Valve way of lending a helping hand.)

However, apparently, they like PM and their fan base enough to not shoot a C&D. Even though it could get wacky in court, Nintendo does have better chances beating the PMDT in court. So, they're turning a blind eye to it.

Unfortunately, since Nintendo decided to support the competitive scene directly, they can't let PM appear as a main event, since well, you can't turn a blind eye to something and then directly sponsor it in a public event.

With that said, PM can (And should) be available as a recorded side event with commentary. It would work kinda like the salty suite. It's not an official and directly sponsored event, but it would happen on off hours or something, then it would be recorded and uploaded to Youtube.

Now, you may have noticed that I didn't really said a word about streaming archives. There's a good reason for that. They are irrelevant.

Nintendo can't do much about PM videos on Youtube aside from the general "Copyright Infringement, take this down pls." They can't do squat aside from requesting individual take downs for every video, and that is a violation of their current Blind Eye policy, which is pointless since it's much quicker to just shoot a C&D already.

Moral of the story: GimR just took down these videos out of sheer, irrational fear. OK, it's safer for VGBC to stop streaming PM from now on, but that didn't mean anything for the older videos.

Warning: Wall of text above.

 

[Ura]

Actually, in the case of Tournaments, Nintendo is not directly taking out PM.

Nintendo can't support PM without opening the way to more hackers and modders to mess with their games.
(Though considering the difficulty of getting third party developers, I don't really know why they don't roll the Valve way of lending a helping hand.)

However, apparently, they like PM and their fan base enough to not shoot a C&D. Even though it could get wacky in court, Nintendo does have better chances beating the PMDT in court. So, they're turning a blind eye to it.

Unfortunately, since Nintendo decided to support the competitive scene directly, they can't let PM appear as a main event, since well, you can't turn a blind eye to something and then directly sponsor it in a public event.

With that said, PM can (And should) be available as a recorded side event with commentary. It would work kinda like the salty suite. It's not an official and directly sponsored event, but it would happen on off hours or something, then it would be recorded and uploaded to Youtube.

Now, you may have noticed that I didn't really said a word about streaming archives. There's a good reason for that. They are irrelevant.

Nintendo can't do much about PM videos on Youtube aside from the general "Copyright Infringement, take this down pls." They can't do squat aside from requesting individual take downs for every video, and that is a violation of their current Blind Eye policy, which is pointless since it's much quicker to just shoot a C&D already.

Moral of the story: GimR just took down these videos out of sheer, irrational fear. OK, it's safer for VGBC to stop streaming PM from now on, but that didn't mean anything for the older videos.

Warning: Wall of text above.

They don't have to support every mod that comes into existence. PM is a special case given it's fanbase and support. It's just a mod that gives Brawl Melee gameplay, adds in Roy and Mewtwo, and adds old/new stages. They don't really add anything that's not Nintendo related albeit the stage "Dracula's Castle".

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

They don't have to support every mod that comes into existence. PM is a special case given it's fanbase and support. It's just a mod that gives Brawl Melee gameplay, adds in Roy and Mewtwo, and adds old/new stages. They don't really add anything that's not Nintendo related albeit the stage "Dracula's Castle".

No, that's not what I said. Nintendo supporting mods will encourage more people to make more mods. "After all, if PM made it big, why not my mod?"

You seeing what I meant? More mods will basically force Nintendo to deal with it somehow.

 

[Ura]

No, that's not what I said. Nintendo supporting mods will encourage more people to make more mods. "After all, if PM made it big, why not my mod?"

You seeing what I meant? More mods will basically force Nintendo to deal with it somehow.

I know but I just feel that PM should be an exception from other mods given it's essentially still Brawl with Melee mechanics added in for the most part.

Nintendo doesn't have to support PM or endorse it on their channel, all they need to do is just let it run at tournaments like all the other games.

 

[Omadon]

Man, and here I thought the Smash fanbase couldn't keep popping up such toxic players, and here we get an example that represents the spoiled, self-pitying consumer archetype in one package. Ugh.
You don't even know why you are blaming Sakurai and Nintendo since they had nothing to do with this decision. And the general consensus is that Smash 4 is a fine game as it is, it doesn't need to be "fixed" (read: tailored towards your personal needs). So please, spare us the drama and don't tell us that you poor, orphaned fans have been "betrayed" just because they have adjusted the game mechanics over time and they don't meet your Highness's expectations. They haven't wronged you as far as we know but people like you simply want to pretend that they always owe you something and can't resist the temptation to victimize yourself. But hey, if you were fishing for pity, you got mine:

To correct a few points - there is no self pity or feeling of entitlement behind my actions. Nintendo owe me, as an individual, literally nothing. I'm aware that it makes me easier to argue with if you portray me as craving sympathy, however that isn't the case. I am simply angry.

Also - you use the phrase "adjusted the game mechanics" to describe an active reduction in game mechanics. It is a stone cold axiom that S4 lacks the depth of Melee. You can make all the noise you want defending it but the fact remains that somewhere along the chain of command somebody decided to make the game dumber. Question my choice of language or w/e - but that point remains.

You also tried to claim that Nintendo/Sakurai had nothing to do with this - not directly, no. But the very existence of S4 and Nintendo's sudden interest in dipping its fingers into the competitive world is. I consider this to be a suitable causal tie to garner initial resentment on my part.

Also, you refer to the "general consensus" as a yardstick for whether or not S4 needs changing. You know how many people bought copies of 50 Shades of Gray? Or swear by Twilight movies? Or, Christ (pun intended) - believe in God? The popularity of an opinion does not in any way correlate with its accuracy.

In summary. I don't think Nintendo owes me anything - I'm just angry. I don't think I'm the victim here - I'm still just angry. I don't care if everybody thinks the game is fine - you guessed it. Still angry.

Also! I too possess silly memes.

Spoiler

 

[Omadon]

That said, kind of in response to Omni's post. This is a forum in which I feel my complaints are relevant. People can - however. Play whatever they want. My personal wish should not bleed into hating people who enjoy S4. I'm angry that its existence is taking spotlight from PM and frankly it is my right to be. This doesn't mean I don't understand or sympathize with what VGBC has done, I just wish we didn't need PM in the first place, and that Nintendo understood what gives their style of game its depth. I want to do a lot to promote smash in my local scene and I won't begrudge anyone who wishes to play S4 if they truly prefer it. I will likely express my confusion, but much in the same way that as a vegetarian I don't run into burger bars and start preaching. I won't attack a persons enjoyment of the game. The line between being angry with the state of S4 and the people who enjoy it seems to get blurred an awful lot, and I'm aware I'm double posting but this point is separate from my earlier refutation and I want to delineate it from my rage on that subject.

So, yes. By all means, play what you want if you enjoy it. Just because I (and likely most of the melee/PM community) value complexity and depth doesn't mean the rest of us should. Or even subscribe to our meaning of complexity and depth. We don't have to agree. I hope that our communities as a whole can find a way to rage *in the right direction*. IE: Not at each other.

 

[LimitCrown]

Well, if it's worth mentioning, the 2 of the 4 criteria for Fair Use sorta justifies PM



1. and 4. would support PM's existence. They don't sell the mod for money and the game doesn't effect Nintendo's business as a whole because as I mentioned earlier, people who want/don't want to buy SSB4 will buy it/not buy it regardless of PM. Not sure about 2. and 3. though their can be an argument made for it.

Project M isn't for non-profit educational purposes nor is it parodic, so the first one would not support its existence. Project M also competes with the other Super Smash Bros. games including Smash 4, so the fourth one would not support it. It incorporates a lot of copyrighted content, so the third one wouldn't support it.

 

[Reivax]

****I will wait for that Pmessage and then unsubsribe, **** VgBootCamp


**** them **** them **** them, you only want the community to grow? **** hypocrites, you only want money

This is a sad year for the smash community

 

[WhiteCane]

I liked what PM ended up doing but it was only a matter of time before it got canned or lost some steam I feel.

 

[Fig Newton]

The thing is I can understand why GimR wants to stay clean regarding to Project M. It's a fan-made mod that alters the way how Nintendo sees how the characters react. By playing safe, VGBC is able to look good from Nintendo's eyes and if GimR really wants to be sponsored by Nintendo in the long-run, it makes sense to make sure that all of VGBC is under legal terms. I play Project M and while it's sad to see this affect the PM community, it isn't the end of the world until Nintendo does bring legal statements concerning the mod for copyright infringement. All I can to this subject is that it isn't the end of the world.

 

[TLE_MegaMan]

Project m is a highly addictive game. I do not understand why everybody is getting rid of it. It had more entrees than brawl in apex 2014

 

[Mr. Cuddles]

This is frustrating but id doesnt make a difference to me. if every streamer of pm stops streaming pm, im still playing it. PM is to good of a game to die just because ONE streamer no longer streams it. I might watch VGbootcamp for melee , but im probably gonna look for someone else until they decide to stream PM.

 

[Mr. Cuddles]

Wow this is actually sad to see how hard it is for some people to comprehend the decision GimR made really makes our community look bad when kids who don't know what they are talking about leave comments calling GimR a sell out when he made the right decision like would you rather no more PM on VGBC until he finds somewhere to archive or no VGBC at all because with PM on GimR's channel that would be a very possible reality for VGBC to just get shut down I'd rather lose PM than lose VGBC entirely use your head before you comment also there is now a market for PM streams and archived Tourneys I know that some one will come along and fill that market and if by chance no one does than you people who are calling him a sell out should.

I ask you to forgive us PM players but as soon as SMASH 4 for the wii u hit, pm has been disrespected (more than it already has) kicked out of tourneys, and now its being cut from major streamers. this is no coincidence. Idk if nintendo is trying to kill PM but all we know is that someone is, and we are not very happy about it.

 

[Reidlos Toof]

I'm angry as hell about this decision, but personal attacks are totally unwarranted. No need to muddy our legitimate complaints with insults like this.


It's cute that you think the distinction between a "real game" and a "mod" is whether or not the devs happen to work in a single big building with a shiny corporate logo on it, or not.

This is not a personal attack. This is stating what they are doing. They have decided to value fame, money, and status over a portion of a community. They have decided this as an organization. A personal attack would be saying something like "Oh, this is clearly (specific person)'s fault."

 

[LimitCrown]

This is not a personal attack. This is stating what they are doing. They have decided to value fame, money, and status over a portion of a community. They have decided this as an organization. A personal attack would be saying something like "Oh, this is clearly (specific person)'s fault."

How is fame and money being valued over a portion of the community when fans of Project M may unsubscribe from the channel?

 

[GameFreak164X]

Sakurai shouldn't intentionally make smash competitively non viable then. This is probably the dumbest counter-pm argument I've ever read and it's disheartening to know how much such stupidity perpetuates itself since I've seen this same trash on multiple occasions.

If your saying Smash 4 isn't competitive, your wrong. Namco Brandai has done a lot to improve the mechanics of the game since E3 to make the game more competitive. Maximilian, someone who played the E3 build extensively and knows fighting games very well, can attest to that. Just because Smash 4 doesn't directly appeal to Melee only fans doesn't mean it's not competitively viable.

 

[GameFreak164X]

I really do not understand how or why they allow Brawl to be featured at tourneys when PM has a much bigger player base hence bringing more profit and possibly even more attention for all parties involved, including the company of Nintendo.

I mean, just replace Brawl with PM for pete's sake.

So, **** everyone who enjoys Brawl? I don't enjoy Brawl myself, but its still a Smash game with its own community. You know, a SMASH game, and we're the SMASH community. Your close minded desire to screw the minority is an insult to the community.

 

[MegaMissingno]

So, **** everyone who enjoys Project M? Same deal, we're getting screwed right now.

 

[GameFreak164X]

So, **** everyone who enjoys Project M? Same deal, we're getting screwed right now.

You're not wrong, I just have a problem with this guy saying screw Brawl. Not related to the issue of this thread, but it just bothered me.

 

[WillieDangerously]

Not trying to be that guy but this was expected. I mean it Is a MOD. Some thought it was next best thing and I did too at one point. But not long after, all I saw was copyright strike. R.I.P

You know TF2 and Portal were both originally mods of Half Life and look where they are now. The PMBR has never charged for PM and has always supported acquiring PM through a legal copy of Brawl. PM has gotten large enough where if it warranted a copyright issue, it would have already been addressed by now.

 

[MegaMango]

So, **** everyone who enjoys Brawl? I don't enjoy Brawl myself, but its still a Smash game with its own community. You know, a SMASH game, and we're the SMASH community. Your close minded desire to screw the minority is an insult to the community.

Lol, no, no, no, you misunderstood me, sir. I wasn't saying we need to get rid of Brawl, I was saying why choose to get rid of a bigger install base over the smaller one? I mean, I want Brawl to still be in the picture, but if a tourney could only pick one of the two, I'm confused as to why they would choose Brawl, when more money could be made by featuring PM. Personally, I would like it if both were available.

 

[Blargg888]

Wow. This sure is something.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

To correct a few points - there is no self pity or feeling of entitlement behind my actions. Nintendo owe me, as an individual, literally nothing. I'm aware that it makes me easier to argue with if you portray me as craving sympathy, however that isn't the case. I am simply angry.

Also - you use the phrase "adjusted the game mechanics" to describe an active reduction in game mechanics. It is a stone cold axiom that S4 lacks the depth of Melee. You can make all the noise you want defending it but the fact remains that somewhere along the chain of command somebody decided to make the game dumber. Question my choice of language or w/e - but that point remains.

You also tried to claim that Nintendo/Sakurai had nothing to do with this - not directly, no. But the very existence of S4 and Nintendo's sudden interest in dipping its fingers into the competitive world is. I consider this to be a suitable causal tie to garner initial resentment on my part.

Also, you refer to the "general consensus" as a yardstick for whether or not S4 needs changing. You know how many people bought copies of 50 Shades of Gray? Or swear by Twilight movies? Or, Christ (pun intended) - believe in God? The popularity of an opinion does not in any way correlate with its accuracy.

In summary. I don't think Nintendo owes me anything - I'm just angry. I don't think I'm the victim here - I'm still just angry. I don't care if everybody thinks the game is fine - you guessed it. Still angry.

Also! I too possess silly memes.

Spoiler

View attachment 38355

It´s kind of stupid to use 50 Shades of Grey or Twilight as an example. Yes, there are crappy things in this world that are unexplicably popular but this is not one of those cases, you simply cannot use an argument like that every time you want to say "it´s popular therefore it must suck" or "it´s obscure, it must be awesome!" just to feed your ego and let go of your insecurities for not being part of the "sheep" that enjoy this iteration. Heck. just replace those phrases with "do you know how many people like pizza/The Beatles?".
Smash 4 has garnered a positive reception; it has gotten several great reviews and most fan feedback has been met favorly plus it has sold well. Sorry, but from an objective standpoint the game is just fine. It isn"t dumber, just less complex but still a deep experience.

But if you were angry, you are forgiven. People say childish and stupid things when emotions run wild. Though misblaming others is a bad way to cope with it. Blaming this on the sole existence of Smash 4 is utterly absurd.

 

[Mr. Cuddles]

It´s kind of stupid to use 50 Shades of Grey or Twilight as an example. Yes, there are crappy things in this world that are unexplicably popular but this is not one of those cases, you simply cannot use an argument like that every time you want to say "it´s popular therefore it must suck" or "it´s obscure, it must be awesome!" just to feed your ego and let go of your insecurities for not being part of the "sheep" that enjoy this iteration. Heck. just replace those phrases with "do you know how many people like pizza/The Beatles?".
Smash 4 has garnered a positive reception; it has gotten several great reviews and most fan feedback has been met favorly plus it has sold well. Sorry, but from an objective standpoint the game is just fine. It isn"t dumber, just less complex but still a deep experience.

But if you were angry, you are forgiven. People say childish and stupid things when emotions run wild. Though misblaming others is a bad way to cope with it. Blaming this on the sole existence of Smash 4 is utterly absurd.

That is true Smash 4 is not the problem. its Nintendo's involvement in smash bros in general, pushing out project m and angering melee players everywhere. this is not smash 4's fault, but some smash 4 players dont help the situation by saying " its a mod anyway" like that matters .

forgive us pm players but we are reasonably upset

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

It´s kind of stupid to use 50 Shades of Grey or Twilight as an example. Yes, there are crappy things in this world that are unexplicably popular but this is not one of those cases, you simply cannot use an argument like that every time you want to say "it´s popular therefore it must suck" or "it´s obscure, it must be awesome!" just to feed your ego and let go of your insecurities for not being part of the "sheep" that enjoy this iteration. Heck. just replace those phrases with "do you know how many people like pizza/The Beatles?".
Smash 4 has garnered a positive reception; it has gotten several great reviews and most fan feedback has been met favorly plus it has sold well. Sorry, but from an objective standpoint the game is just fine. It isn"t dumber, just less complex but still a deep experience.

But if you were angry, you are forgiven. People say childish and stupid things when emotions run wild. Though misblaming others is a bad way to cope with it. Blaming this on the sole existence of Smash 4 is utterly absurd.

Omadon was probably a bit too angry to think straight.
I mean, no one in their right mind compares reading 50 shades of grey and watching Twilight to believing in God unless it's trolling.

Your points are valid though. Smash 4 isn't bad. It's just different. There's no reason for any fanbases to be attacking each other. People need to learn to respect other people.

 

[Omadon]

It´s kind of stupid to use 50 Shades of Grey or Twilight as an example. Yes, there are crappy things in this world that are unexplicably popular but this is not one of those cases, you simply cannot use an argument like that every time you want to say "it´s popular therefore it must suck" or "it´s obscure, it must be awesome!" just to feed your ego and let go of your insecurities for not being part of the "sheep" that enjoy this iteration. Heck. just replace those phrases with "do you know how many people like pizza/The Beatles?".
Smash 4 has garnered a positive reception; it has gotten several great reviews and most fan feedback has been met favorly plus it has sold well. Sorry, but from an objective standpoint the game is just fine. It isn"t dumber, just less complex but still a deep experience.

But if you were angry, you are forgiven. People say childish and stupid things when emotions run wild. Though misblaming others is a bad way to cope with it. Blaming this on the sole existence of Smash 4 is utterly absurd.

And again, you try to claim I'm painting myself as a victim, or somehow above the masses. I harbor no insecurity over not being involved with S4 and my ego - while I am in possession of one. This has nothing to do with that.

Also, you're doing the thing where you simplify my argument to something easier to attack. At no point have I implied that I dislike S4 because its popular, or the same in reverse for Melee/PM. I've even clearly stated that I do not care what the rest of the world thinks of it. We are measuring the game from different points. You seem to want to claim its been well received, and this objectively is fine. Whereas I want to claim that it could still have appealed to that exact same audience along with those looking for additional depth without being lobotomized in such crude fashion.

I do not deny that yes, it has its own stuff going for it - but they had so much they could have put in with a slight bit of effort but it is the policy decision to not that angers me. Casual players would still enjoy it just as much. Herein lies my point. They spurned competition. Yes it *can* be played competitively and I'm sure a great many people will enjoy. It - who am I to stop them. Frankly I want them to as much as possible. I'm looking at running events in Bristol and despite my distain for the game I wouldn't dream of shoving that down someones throat out of context.

This - however. Is a place where people with opinions come and dump them onto the internet for all to see. As such I feel it fair game to voice my - what I would consider neatly organized rage.

TL;DR question I'd like to ask you before you go about yelling at me for being some kind of hipster egomaniac again. Simply put - would Smash 4 be a worse game if it kept the mechanical depth, or at least the option of enabling the mechanical depth of melee? What reason beyond an ideological crusade against competition is there for them to strip it out?

EDIT: also @ Volt-Ikazuchi - I was perfectly in the right mind when I compared those things. Although I must admit that having poor taste in literature is several magnitudes of stupid below faith in god.

FURTHER EDITING: However on that note I will amend the implication that fandom of S4 could be equated with stupidity. If I have managed to present that as any way true I completely apologize. I only wish to imply that the popularity of statement does not necessarily correlate with its correctness, or rather - the likelihood that I should also agree with it. I'm sure people who genuinely like S4 aren't as neurotically concerned with depth as I am - Which is totally, unequivocally fine.

 

[GameFreak164X]

Lol, no, no, no, you misunderstood me, sir. I wasn't saying we need to get rid of Brawl, I was saying why choose to get rid of a bigger install base over the smaller one? I mean, I want Brawl to still be in the picture, but if a tourney could only pick one of the two, I'm confused as to why they would choose Brawl, when more money could be made by featuring PM. Personally, I would like it if both were available.

I can see your logic. But if Nintendo is involved, they can't legally support PM unfortunately.

 

[GameFreak164X]

You know TF2 and Portal were both originally mods of Half Life and look where they are now. The PMBR has never charged for PM and has always supported acquiring PM through a legal copy of Brawl. PM has gotten large enough where if it warranted a copyright issue, it would have already been addressed by now.

PM isn't an original IP like Portal and TF2.

 

[LimitCrown]

Didn't Valve release an official software development kit for the Source engine? If so, then Portal and TF2 shouldn't even be compared to Project M.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Didn't Valve release an official software development kit for the Source engine? If so, then Portal and TF2 shouldn't even be compared to Project M.

I might be wrong, but this happened after Portal and TF2 were released.

Actually, the only difference between PM and TF/L4D/Other mods turned into Valve games is the PC modding culture being different than Console mods, and that PM was developed to be a sequel of a game.

@ Omadon Now, while your post is valid and respectful discussions were people can expose their opinions are certainly encouraged, remember that regardless of our opinions and beliefs, it's very important to respect people's religions.
Many real-life wars started with disrespectful people who mocked and decided to kill for warped understandings of their religions mixed with blind fury, so please, regardless of what you believe, do not say that believing in God is stupid. This is flat out offensive, even to atheists, because people have to respect other opinions.

 

[Omadon]

That's exactly why I thoroughly don't respect religion. In any way. Whatsoever. Those wars were between other religions claiming theirs was superior - or that their god had somehow rubber stamped this. I would task you to find a statistically relevant number of atheists who've killed religious people because they were religious. Who didn't also have words like "sociopath" on their resume. I don't respect the belief that god exists any more than I do the view that vaccines cause autism. Arguably less so.

Anyway. Speaking of contextually appropriate rants - this is totally not the place for this one. I recommend we agree to vehemently disagree before we derail the whole damn thread.

BACK TO SMASH: I agree with whoever stated that the PC game community is simply more used to mods. Consoles have felt like a total closed circuit until the more recent generations but PCs have been on that for basically forever. I don't feel like Nintendo have much experience with it as a concept to be honest. They seem to have some very niche audiences that they aim everything they have at and then do completely arbitrary seeming stuff to anything that doesn't fit.

 

[WillieDangerously]

PM isn't an original IP like Portal and TF2.

That is true, but my point is many great things have come about through mods.

 

[TheOnlyGBeast]

You do realize for most of 2013 and 2014 and part of 2012 PM was the main game that got VGBC to be seen as "the stream" over the likes of Smash Studios and especially Clash Tournament right=???

Before that it was a Brawl stream converted into a Melee stream, and once PM 2.5 or so dropped, it became known as a Smash stream.

Also a lot of the #FreeGimR stuff was PM stuff.

Of course if you had been a part of the competitive scene you'd know that, but you're not/you weren't, so you're speaking out of pure unadulterated ignorance.

I've been a competitive smasher since brawl, I gave PM a fair chance(over a year) and I've been continually underwhelmed. So really it is you who is ignorantly making assumptions

 

[Charmilio]

Reading these comments literally gave me a migraine. I'll just be over here playing every Smash title and watching streams for each installment (including Crusade and PM) while you people try to justify playing a video game to each other. I doubt the PMBR takes this nonsense as seriously as some of you (who have nothing to do with PM's active development and an actual stake in where the game goes) do. Yeah, GiMR kind of took the money and ran from the PM scene. Doucher move, oh well. No reason to lose our minds over one less stream. TLOC, Windy City Smash, and a whole bunch of other streams (protip: that you can find by searching 'Project M' on twitch) are picking up the slack. Nothing to see here, carry on as usual.

 

[Resmer Lockheart]

So basically, Nintendo hasn't said anything on the matter and Gamr is just trying to get on Nintendo's good side for future partnership. Regardless of the legalty of PM (Which is legal under free use, and could be considered an "art" form) Gamr is just being a suck up.

Shame.