[v3.6] R.O.B. Community Matchup Chart + Discussion

[bubbaking]

Huh, my bad on the Alpha Dash one. I thought it was recent enough to be 3.5, and I didn't really look for telltale signs. However, I don't think the number of stocks really matters since the ability to get the lead and take stocks faster than the opponent starts from the first stock anyway. I guess at this point we'll just have to agree to disagree then.

That being said, this past weekend I managed to beat Envy and Codi, one of our top PM players, both of whom whipped out Fox (although Codi only did it for the last game), so I guess I finally cut off my horrible streak of just losing sets I have the lead in to people who switch to Fox halfway in.

I traveled to a fairly stacked, decently sized tourney last Friday. A decent portion of our region's high-level talent was there and I managed to place 3rd, and I happened to beat Envy in a close set. I also beat Captain Smuckers, who is one of our top Melee players and plays Falcon in both games, but he ran a train through everyone in losers and ended up placing 2nd. I know we both said at various times in the past that Falcon probably has a solid advantage on ROB and I definitely stand by that now. Way too hard to be chasing after the second fastest character with anything, and every touch always equaled a knee for him.

Yesterday, I went to a different tourney and placed 3rd again under the other top players from our region that were there. Funnily enough, Codi also went Falcon during one of our games in the set that I won, and I just barely lost to that, but then in Losers Finals, which Codi won, he won game 1 and lost games 2 and 3 as Falcon and then won the next two games as Falco (although his first Falco match was against my Zard, not ROB). The last match was uuultra close, though. Could have easily gone either way. That MU really does seem very even, maybe just a slight edge to Falco. Neutral's fairly fine - we're one of the few chars that can somewhat safely poke at Falco retreating to high top plats without endangering ourselves too much - and we get gimps, it's just that he combos us so hard and he also edgeguards us surprisingly well.

Played an annoying as **** kirby on the weekend. How do you guys find this match up? Neutral is easy enough to win however I found it extremely hard to kill the little bugger. Aside from a random Nair or Dacus I could only kill him after chipping away at him and up throwing. How do you guys do it?

ROB:Kirby is actually really hard. Kirby has better mobility (especially unpredictable burst mobility), ridiculously good CQC, and good combos on us. With the 3.5 patch, we got easier to edgeguard, but so did Kirby so not much changed there, but in general, ROB is easier for Kirby to gimp than vice versa. Luckily for us, most Kirby players don't really like to copy powers, which is really darn weird, because Kirby can use almost every character's power better than the original character. Yeah, Inhale is nifty, but people rarely fall for that in this day and age. Kirby with ROB's laser is just really crappy to fight against, but you will probably never have to worry about it. As for killing, yeah, you're not really gonna get good follow-ups on Kirby past mid %'s. The most you can really hope for is dthrow > uair, and even that is risky because rock can armor through it and kill us if we overextend. In reality, your best bet is to catch him off-guard with usmash or trade with him with nair. Uthrow does kill, but waiting until 130% (or whenever uthrow kills) in a MU that the opponent wins at neutral is not fun at all. Btw, does anyone know if Kirby can crouch under our grab, just to add more crappy things to the MU?

 

[bubbaking]

Accidental double post.

 

[Sneez]

yo bubbaking if you think losing to mango or lucky is evidence for being a bad matchup you're kind of a fool.

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz, it still is when he doesn't touch the game and doesn't know the MU and still ends up beating the best ROB (although I guess DF does make a good point in stating that he's not the best at the spacee MUs) in all five of the five ROB vs Fox matches that they played, including the ones on his CPs. Honestly, you're the foolish one if you're not considering this as good anecdotal evidence at the very least just because Lucky happens to be a great Melee player. If you want to provide matches as supporting evidence, they should be between high or top-level players of both characters. Smash Debate 101, buddy. I believe Oracle vs Lucky definitely qualifies as fair game. Even DF at least replied with reasons explaining that the problem was with the lack of optimization on Oracle's part, not the fact that he lost to Lucky. Same with the Mango match, even though that was bad evidence.

 

[Sneez]

i don't really care about internet arguments cuz no one ever changes their mind, ill mm you for $100 if we're ever at the same tourney though. never seen you play but i can tell you're a scrub.

 

[bubbaking]

Looolz! Coming from the guy who talks about MUs he knows nothing about and says we can just CC fsmash Zelda and our ftilt is safe on her shield? I hate to break it to ya, but I've at least played and beaten other good players in tournament. Never heard of you, though. Still, that's a real safe challenge for the guy across the entire country from me. Okay, if you ever end up in an EC tourney, and I coincidentally happen to also be there, then I'll MM you for any amount up to $50. You were willing to go $100, so that's pretty safe for you, right? What's your tag so I can recognize you?

 

[Sneez]

i dunno if you travel for tournies at all but i might make it to ltc3 in texas, its like the same distance from both of us. my tag is sneez, $50 is fine but i'd rather do more. here's a vid of mine from last week https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twp_hBAY7Mc. notice that i lose but still feel that the mu is in my favor. lucky is really good.

 

[Dandizzle]

Just as usual down to talk match ups. Just actually play with the changes before just carrying over old thoughts and don't over analyze any changes either. I haven't really messed with enough for me to say stuff about it myself. First posts have been updated for the current situation.

 

[bubbaking]

I played the Samus:ROB MU for the first time ever against Rubba last weekend. We generally agree that I'm at a higher level of skill than him, but even so, it does NOT look good for ROB. ROB loses at, like, every range. ROB gets out-camped pretty hard, and his new reflector really sucks for dealing with it. It's easy for Samus to avoid missiles and shots that come back and ROB doesn't approach behind them to gain any ground. That and, as has been stated repeatedly, ROB's reflector often clanks with the missiles instead of reflecting them (and I can only imagine that would get him killed if he tried to reflect a fully-charged shot). The gyro kinda helps but not really, and if Samus gets her hands on it, she can use it almost as well as ROB can. At medium range, ROB's approach gets stuffed by zair. Up close, Samus has a pretty easy time CCing his stuff, and since every single one of his moves, including boost aerials, is at least -3 on block, it means that badly spaced moves get upB'd OoS for free. Meanwhile, ROB's terrible OoS options mean Samus actually gets decent pressure on ROB and his somewhat bad shield makes him liable to be poked by random fairs and dtilts.

I have a feeling Rubba was flubbing edgeguards, since I was kinda just recovering for free, but I feel that ROB should at least be able to harass her offstage with lasers, gyro, and fairs, maybe even well-placed nairs. However, Samus kinda dominates ROB's recovery unless he can force himself in high. Utilt, ftilt, and drop-down nair really stuff ROB's linear recovery hard. To me, fire mode seemed more devastating overall because Samus could get pretty good combos, and shield-pokes to start them, with it (lolz, dthrow combos into usmash with most DIs and usmash combos into itself into fair into follow-up at low %'s for huge damage). However, ice mode was absolutely nasty for edgeguards. Ice homing missiles really do a number to ROB's dashes, fair is also good at trading and cutting him off, and dtilt hits low and sends ROB back out really far at high %'s. ROB also has to make sure he avoids running into ice usmash at high %'s, and Samus can combo into it with dthrow on some DIs. Lolz, it's not even easy to boost-hit Samus when you think you've got her blind-spot (she has a similar one to ROB) 'cause she can just roll up into a ball and boost out of there.

I would say solid disadvantage for ROB (-2).

CURRENT DISCUSSION: Did 3.6 change your thoughts on playing against a certain character enough that the number should be changed? Do any match ups stay fairly the same but must be approached from a new angle for success?

Yes, lolz, like, every MU that was reflector-heavy got messed up, plus some other chars have gotten big changes as well that heavily affect our MUs.

Spoiler

Sheik can't bthrow > tipper usmash us anymore, so I'm thinking we can really live for a long time against her as long as we avoid gimps and always DI dthrow down and away. I'm thinking that maaaybe this MU isn't as bad as before, but a lot of our core problems still remain at neutral. We still have this big blind-spot that Sheik takes advantage of very well, and now we can't even dash under Sheik with grounded sideB if she's jumping like a moron. Possibly only a solid disadvantage but probably still a strong disadvantage, and most probably still our worst MU.

Zard is probably the same, but I haven't done that MU. He got his old glide back, so edgeguarding will be harder, but I see this MU staying in the solid disadvantage zone.

Falcon is almost definitely worse now, possibly strong disadvantage. The grounded sideB used to actually be good in this MU 'cause it could catch him unawares and pseudo-combo into dsmash. Now it does nothing and we actually have nothing to catch Falcon on the ground. This is a nightmare.

Marth is probably the same.

MK....oh, MK. I'm seriously about to pick him back up and main him again, 'cause of these buffs he's gotten. His dthrow was re-buffed, and that was one of the worst parts of the MU back in 3.0 (that and the fact that the MU is a character with incredible frame-trap pressure vs a character with no OoS game). With our throw changes, I don't even know if we can still CG him (@ DrinkingFood , have you tested this?). I would guess that this MU is a disadvantage for us, but Rubba did beat Almighty's MK in a MM last weekend, so...Idk.

Link is probably worse for us with this new reflector of ours, but his 'rang actually got nerfed pretty hard. We lost all our Link mains, so Idk anymore.

Ivy was another reflector-heavy MU, but we still have our other good tools for her, those tools namely being our projectiles, ability to gimp, and our CC ability. Maybe an even MU...

Ike is probably still slightly good for us. QD got the heck nerfed out of it, and we were good at shutting it down before. No light armor on Aether either...

Yoshi is less dumb, and he seems easier to gimp now, so I'd guess this MU is still even or in our favor.

Jiggs is the same.

Peach is mostly the same in that we still win solidly. It's annoying that certain things got nerfed, like late nair and the boost damage for it, making killing her a little harder, and our reflector, making it harder to approach while reflecting turnips, but the important part is that we're still much faster than her and have several key tools for knocking her out of her float. Rubba recently beat Malachi's Peach, although he lost the set 'cause Sheik.

Zelda... Even though Zelda is my absolute most played MU by far, it's the one I'm least inclined to comment on, partly because I stopped using ROB against her and mostly because I stopped using everyone other than Sheik and Ganon against her. At one point long ago, I used to think we did fine against her, but now I think we lose and that hasn't changed. Our resident high-level Zelda (him and I just got PR'd for our region, btw ) has consistently beaten every ROB in the area (Dandizz, Rubba, and myself) and the more I look at/think about it, the worse it seems. On top of the countless things I've said about 3.5/3.6 Zelda (she barely changed), I've just confirmed that, while recovering, Zelda can cancel her aerial upB into her no-lag landing on-stage with the right timing. At first, I thought an omnidirectional teleport with controlled length and a huge, powerful explosion at the end of the full length was broken enough, but now I've learned that she can also just cancel the recovery of the aerial teleport on the ground to turn an uncertain situation into a dangerously bad one. For instance, if you ledgehog to take advantage of the forced recovery onstage, you'd better have different plans if she has the ability to land and suddenly be edgeguarding you. Oh yeah, our ftilt is laggier and our dsmash is more SDI'able now, so those are two moves that Zelda will have an easier time kicking now...

Also, objectively we just lose to Zelda because Sheilda is a thing.

Edit - Real questions by real people: How are we supposed to beat the non-Fox spacees now? Falco was pretty much an even MU before. Is there a reason for him to not laser us to oblivion now? I'd say we lose that now. Same with Wolf. I think we won that MU before, but now he could probably bait us into reflecting and punish. Fox is probably the only spacee that became an easier MU for us.

 

[DrinkingFood]

The reason for him to not laser us into oblivion should be you approaching from over head using boosts. It's not foolproof, but unlike the other spacies falco is not mobile enough to outrun them. Additionally, get a gyro in hand, shield a laser, glide toss at him. It will eat the next laser and pop up into the air, making a small wall at his SH height, and more or less makes you even in terms of frame advantage.

Also I don't think we beat wolf before or that the falco matchup was even, both had the tools to approach us in ways we couldn't CC, and we had to be creative about dealing with projectiles or we'd be baitable/punishable using side-b. Fox had that hardest time of locking us down for an approach so CCing nair and out-DDing dair approaches were way more feasible ways to land a grab. But now, none of them feel as if they can be (reliably) chain grabbed, the dthrow has much worse follow-ups on spacies to end a CG, plus the only one who had a hard time punishing us, fox, now has no issues thanks to the fall speed increase.

So basically I think they're all significantly worse matchups for us now, the only one I felt in our favor before (fox) no longer being so.

Don't have an opinion on Samus though, besides noting that samus mains chronically underrate her lol

 

[Boiko]

Burst reflector used to give Samus a pretty hard time. I can't really value my sets against Rubba, he obviously doesn't know the match up that well since Bubba and I both started pulling out Samus more recently. It definitely feels easier though. Samus has enough aerial mobility and weight to not get carried off the stage, and if she does, her recovery goes far enough to make it back. She can combo him decently well, and does a pretty good job of walling him out. Idk, on paper, seems like it should be pretty good for Samus.

Don't have an opinion on Samus though, besides noting that samus mains chronically underrate her lol

Samus is broken. LOL.

 

[bubbaking]

Samus is definitely high-tier and a better character than, like, every one that I play regularly outside of Sheik.

The reason for him to not laser us into oblivion should be you approaching from over head using boosts. It's not foolproof, but unlike the other spacies falco is not mobile enough to outrun them. Additionally, get a gyro in hand, shield a laser, glide toss at him. It will eat the next laser and pop up into the air, making a small wall at his SH height, and more or less makes you even in terms of frame advantage.

Also I don't think we beat wolf before or that the falco matchup was even, both had the tools to approach us in ways we couldn't CC, and we had to be creative about dealing with projectiles or we'd be baitable/punishable using side-b. Fox had that hardest time of locking us down for an approach so CCing nair and out-DDing dair approaches were way more feasible ways to land a grab. But now, none of them feel as if they can be (reliably) chain grabbed, the dthrow has much worse follow-ups on spacies to end a CG, plus the only one who had a hard time punishing us, fox, now has no issues thanks to the fall speed increase.

So basically I think they're all significantly worse matchups for us now, the only one I felt in our favor before (fox) no longer being so.

Don't have an opinion on Samus though, besides noting that samus mains chronically underrate her lol

Yeah, I figured that our new fall speed would give Fox an easier time punishing us. I definitely felt that, between boosting at Peach float height, the reflector, and combos and gimps, the Falco MU used to be even. Wolf was better because actually reflecting that projectile covered space and ROB so well, and his projectile was a lot easier to react to. He was also just as easy to combo and gimp, but his own edgeguarding game was nowhere as good as Fox's or Falco's, but all that's a thing of the past, so I guess there's not really any point in going into it.

Do you really think that Fox is worse for us, even with all the nerfs he received on his end? Recovery nerfs mean we don't get blown up nearly as hard for guessing wrong on an edgeguard, and we even get another chance if he recovers really badly. The shine change means shines spikes don't mess us up as badly, even though being hit offstage at all while boosting is extremely terrible. Could you maybe go into more detail on that MU? I know you've been saying that our own punish game on him is much weaker now, and we have to rely more on gimps. Is that the only reason you feel Fox is worse for us now?

 

[Dandizzle]

I still think R.O.B is one of the best characters you can CP against Samus, and a character I can still boost nair all day. With ice and the side b changes could drop it down 2 even imo. Historically I've always been good against Samid and so far that hasnt changed. Same thoughts with Wolf, I hate playing that character with anyone other than R.O.B but at the highest level of play probably is even too. Ivy is probably even but I think I still trigger Quaff so ask him. All these characters listed people play against poorly so I don't like to write them off as less favorable just yet. And at this point I refuse to believe we beat Zelda no matter how many of the LOW TIER HEROES come out of the woodwork. Playing your little sisters Zelda doesn't mean **** bruh. We should also beat Yoshi and Ike but that was probably already the case in 3.5 at the top level or at least I think so. Sorry for formatting mobile, just had to write something since someone actually posted.

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz, if it's even, then that's barely a CP, if it even is one. The best chars you can CP against Samus are Sheilda (both sides really mess Samus up), Falcon, and probably MK. The other Sami tell me DDD, DK, and Ike are pretty good against her, too. Boost nair can still be upB'd OoS unless you make sure to really cross her up hard, and being minus on shield in any capacity simply allows Samus to move in and start pressuring ROB. Also, boosts can get shut down by zair, and I would think that nair might risk getting hit by missiles and charge shots as well. "Historically," you haven't played my Samus. We need to change that. I sincerely believe Wolf was in our favor before. Might be even now, but I don't see it. Lolz, I can't really tell, but I think you and I are agreeing about Zelda. Yeah, I think we did beat Ike before.

 

[Dandizzle]

I meant it could be even, but I still think that R.O.B wins. Real talk tho I dunno if its the emojis or whatever but god damn you seem sassy as hell on this site Is there stuff going on at Stony Brook right now cuz I'd like to play irl without having 2 get all the way to HSS and do bad experimenting with stuff. I do some work around there so it would be really convenient.

 

[bubbaking]

I think today's a bad day, since I was gonna do some things. Tomorrow's obviously HSS, and Sunday, I think I might be going to an EVO viewing party. After that though, any day of the week, I should be available. You really need to get an FB so you can know when all the fests are happening, man. We just had 3 days straight of festing at SBU earlier.

 

[Boiko]

I know this isn't the Samus thread, but MK's worst MU is probably Samus. I don't mind the Zelda or Sheik MU as Samus. Ike ****s her.

 

[bubbaking]

Nahhh, try playing Face as Samus and I'm certain you won't be happy. Like Dan said, "Playing your little sister's Zelda doesn't mean **** bruh." Zelda:Samus is already a tough MU for Samus in Melee. Face has taken multiple sets off both me and Min*y (not trying to start name-search drama right now), and he has taken multiple games from Knut with that low tier.

The other Sami in the Skype chat also agree that Sheik beats Samus, although it's not nearly as one-sided as Melee.

MK's worst MU used to be Fox, but idk about now. Between great mobility coupled with a good grab game (anti-Samus), an incredible juggle game (very anti-Samus), and a great vertical KO option (extremely anti-Samus), I find it very hard to believe that MK has a tough time against Samus, let alone his worst time. <__<

#SamusDiscussionInROBThread

 

[Dandizzle]

I mean like Samus is the real deal and bodies Metaknight (why talk about it here dunno) but the current circlejerk makes it seem Metaknight wins everything cuz this must happen to every character I like. He's good but gets beaten by a couple different features which makes him have like 6 or something bad Mu's with weird characters. I haven't Samus has all of these besides a tether recovery but you can mix it up with the bombs and Up-B, I feel I already made this post in that thread so I would go into more detail otherwise.

 

[bubbaking]

In my experience (don't forget I used to main MK), his only true 'weaknesses' are his weight and comboability (which you realize aren't 'balancing weaknesses' when you realize that those things didn't stop the likes of Fox and Falco in Melee), and his weight just got increased a lot. People will tell you that he's 'weak to CCing', but he has some of the best tools for avoiding CC shenanigans in bair, dair, grab, late nair, spaced dtilt, fsmash, SL, the list goes on. MKs that lose to CCs are the scrubby/lazy ones who don't bother to play the game correctly. His only other potential 'weakness' is his inability to clank with projectiles, but with multiple jumps and great ground mobility, that is another 'false problem,' IMO. If good CC games and projectiles were enough to beat MK, then ROB wouldn't have such a tough time dealing with him.

Edit: And now we're finally back to ROB.

 

[M Murphy]

Hey @ Dandizzle how many things on the front page have changed matchup wise in 3.6 and is there going to be a neat and tidy version for 3.6 if it is different? Also, does anyone have tips for dealing with charizard? I know it's a bad match-up but what can we do to minimize the difficulty of it? I play ROB the same in 3.6 as I did in 3.5, and I wanted to know if there was anything that even really helped us this patch that I can add to my play.

 

[Dandizzle]

I'll be completely real on what I think which I usually don't but eh might start discussion.
-Sheik is probably the same which may or may not blow people's mind but the 50/50 wasn't that important in the match up and the weight and falling speed changes help Sheik combo and put R.O.B down. At a scrub level probably better though.
-Charizard was probably a slight disadvantage in 3.5 if anything, glide being good again might swing it back to disadvantage or stay slight disadvantage I haven't played any.
-Falcon did not get any better for us, weight changes and velocity stuff may make long air wobbles. I'd say as bad a Sheik personally in that 60-40 65-35 range.
-Marth is probably whatever it was before, it's really nice edge hogging him.
-Meta knight lost in 3.5 now it's even again. It's a pretty fun match to play if you both understand each other's characters.
-Slight advantage on Link the SideB wasn't as useful as you'd think against his specials.
-Ivysaur should be the same thing too,
-Ike should round up to the same thing, but I haven't really played a good Ike with all the changes.
-Yoshi gets bopped
-Jiggs same
-Peach same

Yea that's all that is up there, if you wanna talk about MU'S I think have shifted as a whole Mario and Luigi should be tougher even though I liked the Mario MU from the past so it shouldn't be bad or anything. Donkey Kong might do slighty better but still pretty irrelevant. The opinion on Diddy is mixed and never really talked about on here I'd like to talk about it. Pikachu is probably slighly harder and I think does pretty good against R.O.B. Samus and ZSS are definitely harder same thing with Ness and less so Lucas. Pit is a character people actually play a bit now and arrows and our recovery's don't exactly fly, be scared if any actually becomes a good Pit player. GnW is easier and Snake might be spooky where as before it was a pretty fun time despite the never ending tech chases.

 

[bubbaking]

You know, I completely forgot that our weight was decreased this patch, not by much, but still decreased.

Also, does anyone have tips for dealing with charizard? I know it's a bad match-up but what can we do to minimize the difficulty of it? I play ROB the same in 3.6 as I did in 3.5, and I wanted to know if there was anything that even really helped us this patch that I can add to my play.

Lolz, nothing really "helped us" this patch. Camp Zard and make approaching difficult for him. It's helpful to keep a gyro out between yourself and him and then punish his attempts at getting over it. Even though it doesn't come up often in this MU, the new sideB is a little annoying because it means we no longer get free, quick reflecting approaches on Zards who unwisely pick up the gyro. He has a pretty bad item toss, so it was fairly useful before. Being floaty, Zard will die earlier to DACUS then he will to everything else, so you can try to catch his landings with those. It's really important to not get too frisky with playing CQC against Zard, because even tilts you thought were well-spaced can end up being shield-grabbed if you are in front of him, and we are easily tall enough for Zard to nair us OoS if you are behind him. Make sure you don't put yourself in situations where Zard can easily anti-air you with jab or usmash. What that means is that you have to make sure you don't predictably boost nair onto a plat because Zard can just sit there and usmash you all day. If you're gonna recover low, watch out for flamethrower, nair, tilts, the works. When Zard is recovering, his glair can be annoying to deal with, but I believe our fsmash priority beats that out.

I'll be completely real on what I think which I usually don't but eh might start discussion.
-Sheik is probably the same which may or may not blow people's mind but the 50/50 wasn't that important in the match up and the weight and falling speed changes help Sheik combo and put R.O.B down. At a scrub level probably better though.
-Charizard was probably a slight disadvantage in 3.5 if anything, glide being good again might swing it back to disadvantage or stay slight disadvantage I haven't played any.
-Falcon did not get any better for us, weight changes and velocity stuff may make long air wobbles. I'd say as bad a Sheik personally in that 60-40 65-35 range.
-Marth is probably whatever it was before, it's really nice edge hogging him.
-Meta knight lost in 3.5 now it's even again. It's a pretty fun match to play if you both understand each other's characters.
-Slight advantage on Link the SideB wasn't as useful as you'd think against his specials.
-Ivysaur should be the same thing too,
-Ike should round up to the same thing, but I haven't really played a good Ike with all the changes.
-Yoshi gets bopped
-Jiggs same
-Peach same

Yea that's all that is up there, if you wanna talk about MU'S I think have shifted as a whole Mario and Luigi should be tougher even though I liked the Mario MU from the past so it shouldn't be bad or anything. Donkey Kong might do slighty better but still pretty irrelevant. The opinion on Diddy is mixed and never really talked about on here I'd like to talk about it. Pikachu is probably slighly harder and I think does pretty good against R.O.B. Samus and ZSS are definitely harder same thing with Ness and less so Lucas. Pit is a character people actually play a bit now and arrows and our recovery's don't exactly fly, be scared if any actually becomes a good Pit player. GnW is easier and Snake might be spooky where as before it was a pretty fun time despite the never ending tech chases.

Sheik's bthrow > tipper usmash was pretty beastly, dude. Killing one of the heaviest characters in the game at 100 semi-reliably is amazing. That being said, I do agree about the weight and fall speed changes, and I super agree about scrub level ROB:Sheik. Falcon I wanna say isn't as bad as Sheik if only because we get a much harder punish game on him.

I don't think DK is irrelevant at all, but luckily for us, not many people play DK. Our region only really has JKJ and he rarely comes out to HSS, lolz. I'm pretty sure DK is actually not a fun MU for us. DdK is an interesting MU. Not only do we have an easier time avoiding and/or picking up the 'naner with boosts, but our good glidetoss allows us to use it fairly well. That being said, I remember playing this MU against NL's broken Diddy back in 3.0, and the old reflector definitely helped out a lot when you got a read on how he was going to use the toss to set up an approach.

I'm curious as to why you think Snake is spookier now than he was when he had a longer CG into a C4 that killed ridiculously early. His recovery is worse, and his fair is no longer a true spike unless spaced well. As Rolex likes to say often, Snake kinda sucks right now. The one thing that's annoying now is that we can't reflect tranq predictions as easily.

 

[Dandizzle]

Oh noes Rolex he's gonna drown me in his tears and I meant the change in the MU was irrelevant from 3.5 for the most part.

 

[M Murphy]

Couple more questions:
1.) What sort of matchup is zero suit samus? I'm not very acquainted with it so I'm not sure who beats who. It's really easy to edgeguard zss, but she can kill early. I sort of feel it is in our favor

2.) Why does Yoshi get bopped? I'm not very certain what to do in the matchup outside of utilizing the top in order to destory yoshis side b. My best guess would be throwing it at a yoshi coming back to stage for easy gimps? The double jump armor I thought protected yoshi from that.

3.) What about the Zelda matchup? Her fair and bair can kill really early, but we can kill her with bair and nair. Any tips in that matchup to avoid getting faired or baired? I usually just vary my approaches and see what the zelda's tendencies are.

4.) Do any of you use netplay?

Also, while I was on netplay I used my side b to reflect the top and it touched my arms and then DIDN'T GO ANYWHERE. It just fell down. Seriously hope for a side b improvement in future version or out of the beta because that'd be super. It's the least they can do after nerfing the hell out of our downthrow.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Couple more questions:
1.) What sort of matchup is zero suit samus? I'm not very acquainted with it so I'm not sure who beats who. It's really easy to edgeguard zss, but she can kill early.

Neither of these is true lol. ZSS is good in almost every area EXCEPT killing. Also, even with the down-b nerf her recovery is still excellent and she has tools to recover both high and low and dodge lasers and gyros
I've felt she's been a bad matchup for us for awhile

2.) Why does Yoshi get bopped? I'm not very certain what to do in the matchup outside of utilizing the top in order to destory yoshis side b. My best guess would be throwing it at a yoshi coming back to stage for easy gimps? The double jump armor I thought protected yoshi from that.

yoshi is very hard to punish and edgeguard, but so are we, but we also have a neutral game that yoshi can't really deal with since he's not fast and can't easily hit from afar

3.) What about the Zelda matchup? Her fair and bair can kill really early, but we can kill her with bair and nair. Any tips in that matchup to avoid getting faired or baired? I usually just vary my approaches and see what the zelda's tendencies are.

zelda is just too slow to stop us from having access to gyro all the time. usually her neutral game tool is Din's but she can only use it to stop either grounded movement or aerial movement, not both, and we beat her in terms of both types of movement; it's a bad MU for her

4.) Do any of you use netplay?

Also, while I was on netplay I used my side b to reflect the top and it touched my arms and then DIDN'T GO ANYWHERE. It just fell down. Seriously hope for a side b improvement in future version or out of the beta because that'd be super. It's the least they can do after nerfing the hell out of our downthrow.

I play netplay
Also downthrow was only nerfed against FFers and floaties, anyone in the middle it's a slight buff against

 

[M Murphy]

We should play sometime! I'm on there as "murf1031". I may have just needed to work on my DI, but it seemed like zero suit could combo into sweet spot bair and if you mess up sdi on her fair it can kill. I guess by "kill" I really meant stage dependent. It won't kill us on dreamlandish stages, but on smaller stages it could I should have clarified. Also, if zss tries to recover low she is basically dead. Properly space a top, grab ledge, and shes not in a great spot. Tetherhog, rinse, repeat. Not much she can do to get around it unless she recovers high and even then (depending on the zss's skill level) you can challenge her returning to the stage with the disjoint on our fsmash or upsmash her when she does her divekick.

We do have better neutral game than Yoshi so I can see that benefiting us greatly. I need more experience in the matchup because it feels so weird to combo yoshi due to his weight and gigantic jump.

Alright so here's my problem against Zelda that basically forced me to change approach. If I boost - fair her she can fair or bair me and get an early kill. If I don't perfectly space a boosted nair she can uptilt. The move may as well have a vaccumn on it I swear lol. It's a fun matchup, but a bit weird. I actually kind of want to try and figure out how to reverse aerial rush with ROB since most of the times I get a back air on someone it's from a cross up and not from the front.

Would you mind explaining a bit about the changes to the downthrow in laymans terms? I was under the impression it was just a straight nerf across the board since it is harder to get follow-ups on it now. it was admittedly crazy easy to get follow ups out of downthrow, but other characters had throws that gave free follow ups so I didn't see it as a huge issue. It also reeeeeeally helped against spacies and I kind of enjoyed having a chainthrow.

 

[DrinkingFood]

most combos are facing forward, fat chance of ZSS comboing into bair lol
hitting strong hit fair is finicky, althought I don't know there specifics there are bound to be so many ways to get out of strings ending in fair strong hit just due to the slow nature of the second hit, the SDIable first hit, and the precise spacing required.

Oh, and basically the thing with dthrow is:
since the angle was lowered, they can no longer DI behind you. The range of possible DIs has now been tilted slightly forward. If they attempt to DI behind you, then end up straight above you, ripe for a utilt/usmash/regrab/all kinds of aerials. This makes it incredibly easy to control the direction the opponent is sent. Previously, if you wanted to send them in the direction you were facing, they could DI behind you and make that nearly impossible, since you would have to turn around and hit them in the other direction since the angle allowed their DI on the dthrow itself to be more behind us. Basically it makes it easier to get longer strings/juggles since the best they can do for themselves DIing in at low percents is get uptilted->aerialed. DIing away, yes you get less follow-ups at high percent, but at low percent DI away is awful as you get a free fair with them at a much lower position to the ground, making it easier to get a fair->carry, fair->regrab, numerous other things. Basically you can set-up for gimps much easier doing that. For floaties, it's a big nerf vs them since you now can't get follow-ups past like 40-50. For FFers, We get nothing guaranteed at low percents, with extremely tight windows at like 25-50, after that it doesn't matter because they should die around that percent lol. #GimpBot

 

[Serj28]

Has anyone found a way to edge guard squirtle effectively or consistently?

 

[Bstuk]

I keep getting chaingrabbed by sheik. Sheiks downthrow to boost grab seems to chaingrab rob across the stage in this patch. Just wondering if this is actually a thing. I tried DIing it up or away. Sometimes up gets you out of it but you have to eat a nair.

 

[DrinkingFood]

DIing up/away almost never gets you out of CGs lol. You have to DI away/down+away. who taught you how to DI the thrpw sends you 62 degrees away from sheik, mostly up, slightly away, without DI. best DI away is perpendicular, which is 28 degrees down+away, which is hard to hit, down+away is the technically the closest notch but 27 degrees is equally effective, inbetween is perfect
She can't CG us at all in this version if you do this. In the previous version we were able to be CG'd with boost grabs against perfect DI down+away, but now we fall too fast.

 

[bubbaking]

ZSS always felt like a fine MU for us last patch. She's weak and we're heavy, she has a good recovery but we can gimp tethers and block off recovery avenues fairly well, her blaster was pretty much the perfect speed for our dash-reflector to turn it into a good approach tool, etc. Don't really know how that MU goes now, though...

zelda is just too slow to stop us from having access to gyro all the time. usually her neutral game tool is Din's but she can only use it to stop either grounded movement or aerial movement, not both, and we beat her in terms of both types of movement; it's a bad MU for her

How does only beating her in movement make this a bad MU for Zelda? Sonic beats the whole cast in terms of mobility; doesn't suddenly make him top tier. Zelda in particular is slower than most, but that doesn't stop her from being a very good character. Even with a gyro in our hands, we can't do much. Zelda has a land-cancelling reflector. Even if Din's could only stop one avenue of movement (which simply isn't true; placing it at head level hinders ground and low boost approaches if she stays close to it), she only needs to cut off one with Din's and then cover the rest herself. She's not trying to keep you from moving completely; she's only limiting your options so that you move where she wants you to move. It's awkward for ROB to remove Din's Fire as well. Even if you disregard all this, it doesn't change that we lose to Zelda at all ranges. Everything we have is minus, so we can't really pressure her (or anyone, for that matter), our mid-range tilts are so minus that she can kick them on reaction, and at long-range, we basically give Zelda the okay to teleport mix us up into oblivion. We don't have good moves for dealing with a 'Farore's Explosion' on top of us (everything clanks or gets beaten except for, like, spaced charged fsmash) and she can always cancel it into a waveland-like state in order to catch us doing something else, like grabbing us if we shield or usmashing us if we try to boost overhead. Add onto that the fact that all of her hitboxes are bigger and better than ours and we can't really edgeguard her since she can cancel aerial teleport into a no-lag landing on stage, but we can be edgeguarded all the same. Doesn't seem bad for her at all.

Alright so here's my problem against Zelda that basically forced me to change approach. If I boost - fair her she can fair or bair me and get an early kill. If I don't perfectly space a boosted nair she can uptilt. The move may as well have a vaccumn on it I swear lol. It's a fun matchup, but a bit weird. I actually kind of want to try and figure out how to reverse aerial rush with ROB since most of the times I get a back air on someone it's from a cross up and not from the front.

Yeah, be careful of utilt, Zelda's waving arm is fully invincible for the entirety of the hitbox (which is 20 frames in duration).

 

[M Murphy]

I'm on the same page with Bubba about the Zelda matchup. Having the gyo only does so much in the matchup due to zeldas side b and neutral b. Recovering against her can be made slightly easier depending on the size of the dins fire she's placed in your path by using you fair (which I do anyways to increase how high I go), but I definitely would say that we don't win the matchup just because of our greater mobility. We both can kill each other very early, except it's easier to edgeguard one of us.

Another topic I was curious about, how do you guys feel about the Samus matchup? Our reflector is pretty useful in this MU, our top can cancel her projectiles (not to mention how great the laser can be), and if we play our cards right we can edgeguard her pretty well. We both have disjoint on our moves, but I feel it's slightly favorable to us, even if samus uses fire or ice form.

 

[M Murphy]

Also, I'd like to take a moment to talk about how much I love the top. Placing it right on the ledge and watching it gimp people (like falcon) or hit them when they do a wake-up attack on stage will never get old. I love it.

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz, you should probably watch how you double post. It's better to edit the first post then to post consecutive posts within an hour of each other.

I feel ROB loses the Samus MU solidly...at least now, anyway. The reflector sucks. Sometimes it clanks with the projectile instead of reflecting it. The gyro can be useful, but it can be hard sometimes to keep Samus from picking it up, and Samus is very capable of just holding onto it for a long time, preventing us from using it again. She has really good item tosses, too. Laser can be good to call her out on her missiles, but that has limited usage. Edgeguarding Samus is actually not as easy as one would think. If she doesn't have a jump and/or she's forced to recover low (probably meaning she's gonna tether), then yeah, it can be easy, but it's usually hard to catch her bomb jump mobility accompanied by a fast DJ with large obnoxious hitboxes and/or upB. We both have nice range-y tilts, but Samus is not hindered by a bad shield or a terrible OoS game.

 

[Zaa]

I've heard that Rob solidly wins the Toon Link match up, but I struggle with it a lot. Does anyone have insight as to how you should play the match up? Or any clear advantages we have. I'm pretty scrubby but I feel like I'm approaching the match up wrong.

 

[M Murphy]

So what do you guys think of ROB's new Side B? It seems pretty great so far (especially compared to beta side b)!

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

How do you guys feel about R.O.B's spread in the Community MU chart?
Thoughts, concerns, flames?

 

[Serj28]

It's a little inaccurate imo.
ROB vs CF is probably only -1
ROB vs DK only +1
-1 for the spacies (all 3)
G&W is -2 or -3 for us
Ganon is +1 or 2
+1 on Ics
Kirby is -1 or -2
Marth is even, Roy too
Sheik is -1
Tink is +1

These are my opinions and the ones i didn't list I either don't know or agree with.

 

[Sneez]

why is G&W good against us? I don't have much experience in the mu