[v3.6] R.O.B. Community Matchup Chart + Discussion

[Zaa]

Basically he has tons of tools to stuff any approach we have. Bacon and fair/f-tilt stuff aerial side b stuff and d-tilt beats basically everything we have on the ground. I don't have too much experience in the match up but that's the jist of it.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

What's the Sheik MU now? Does she still hold a strong advantage?

 

[DrinkingFood]

shouldn't have really changed much
fall speed change means we can now tech out of dthrow with good DI but
now she gets more off that DI using backthrow thanks to new fall speed
other than that nothing relevant has really changed

 

[Rubba Prime]

Also gonna agree with Bubbaking on the Zelda MU. I regularly play against 2 Zelda mains and have way too much trouble with her. She is too much like M2 in that they're very difficult to gimp, have multi-hit full body arials (Nair for both, neutral b for Zelda), can reflect any junk we throw at them, and can do dumb teleport shenanigans.



Currently having trouble dealing with Zelda & ZSS atm if any of you fine robots have some input.

 

[halfzy]

Yoo. Can a respectable rob main plz tell me what they think of the rob vs snake MU. It's odd, I think it's even but rob has to work harder than the snake. Snake gets away with alot of his tricks and its fairly easier for snake to do his combos. Tips and advice plox

 

[DrinkingFood]

some characters can space safely to avoid snake's grenade-in-shield tricks, ROB is not one of those characters since our pressure starts out of a boost rather than our super-****ty short hops. Thing about boosts is that you can't really space with them since they give you a set amount of forward momentum. This alone gives snake a very difficult defense to deal with.

 

[halfzy]

Rob can safely space stuff on snakes shield to avoid hitting the grenade, its tight spacing but it can be done.

Both have a very good defensive game
Both have troubles approaching each other in neutral

Snake has more options Oos and can dish out the shield pressure better and easier than rob can.

Both are tricky to edgeguard and usually end up living past 170%, except snake has his c4 kill move that kill around 100% (when knocked up).

professor pro vs oracle would be an amazing set to watch and answer alot of questions I have in this match up. There really isn't any high lvl stuff in this match up that is up to date

 

[Sneez]

snake rob is probably 50 50 imo. rob's a big target so he's easy to stick, and he has trouble dealing with snake's up-b and dair. however, rob is really good at blowing up mines and if you laser a grenade in snake's hand it'll blow up. when snake is recovering you can just go out and fair and if snake isn't above stage enough there's not much he can do. never done this but im pretty sure if snake has a grenade on the ground you can upthrow to avoid the explosion. or just throw to either side cuz of the quick animations.

 

[halfzy]

Sometimes u can avoid the grenade explosion with certain throws, its mostly situational, and how long the grenade has been cooked.

But yea I agree the matchup is 50-50.

Some quick other matchup opinions-
Gnw vs rob on the other hand is simply hell for rob I think.

Rob has an advantage against dedede. Except robs recover gets stuffed easily Cuz ddd can go out there and zone so many options.

Rob vs falco/wolf/falcon is cakewalk. Anyone who disagrees is a nooblord

Rob vs zss and Zelda is rough but manageable, I'd say 50-50.

Rob vs samus isn't as bad as u guys think. With robs side-b buff getting momentum it works wonders against samus both reflecting shnizz and edge guarding. Plus a well timed spindal (downb) is such a good edgeguarding tool against grapplers.

I can write a more srs description of my opinions of the current matchups stuff later. I'd like to hear from other credible rob mains first about my quick opinions to further discussion.

PS rob needs a taunt buff badly lol

 

[Serj28]

lol If you think ROB vs falcon/falco/wolf is a cakewalk then you're not playing good players.
Falcon is probably ROB's second hardest matchup.

 

[halfzy]

I can see y falcon hard. He gets comboed like its nothing. But rob completely wins the neutral with all his tools. Putting the spindal on the ground cancels out falcons dash dance grab stuff. Plus rob has a huge onslaught of combos on heavy fast fallers.

Plus falcon is extremely linear to edgeguard. Rob can cover all options no problem, falcon hardly has any room for mixups.

Yea I guess I haven't played any good falcons in my area,( I'm in Wa btw), Vish is our best solid falcon main (melee) but I don't see him as a challenge in pm.
Just properly combo di and learn the matchup and u'll see how easy it truly is.

Out of those three, falco/wolf/falcon, wolf is definitely the hardest for rob. Have u seen silentwolf's wolf? He goes nutz on rob

 

[Taytertot]

as a roy main i dont particularly like falcon, DK, fox, samus and wolf and ive heard that zard and dedede can be rough do you guys think that rob would cover these well? i know rob is generally considered to beat samus and has a crazy punish game on spacies (though the spacies part isnt apparent on the MU chart).

i can imagine that rob destroys zard because zard doesnt deal with projectiles well but idk about DK, falcon, and dedede.

 

[Zaa]

Zard and Falcon are both agreed to be pretty rough match ups, so It probably wouldn't help too much.

 

[Sneez]

if rob isn't your main then good luck. tbh i dont think i know of anyone who secondaries rob, ive seen a few people try and eventually give up. and falco/wolf/falcon are probably all around even if your opponent knows the mu and on the same skill level.

 

[Taytertot]

if rob isn't your main then good luck. tbh i dont think i know of anyone who secondaries rob, ive seen a few people try and eventually give up. and falco/wolf/falcon are probably all around even if your opponent knows the mu and on the same skill level.

fair enough. luckily the local tourney im going to has no players who play rob and since its mostly a melee scene i imagine no one would be familiar with the MU.

 

[Rubba Prime]

I know this is one of our worst MUs, but can I get an analysis DrinkingFood ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcY-b7ca8jw

 

[NOTMalachi]

I know this is one of our worst MUs, but can I get an analysis DrinkingFood ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcY-b7ca8jw

Omg F Dreamland

 

[halfzy]

Not bad rob play at all Rubba Prime.

I wish in game 1 and 2 u opted to grab more instead of dsmashing and the weird 2hit upsmash.

You had many times where u sorta panicked and would upb and drop a predictable nooch.

Some good spindal work, keeping it in play.
Sheik is tricky to edgeguard

Didn't see any super low/quick side-b fairs, mostly mid to high on shield or thru the shield.

Game 3 loool

 

[Rubba Prime]

Omg F Dreamland

WHATS THIS KOALA DOING IN THE BEEPBOOPBOP THREAD!?

 

[Rubba Prime]

Another video if any other ROBs wanna weigh in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbT3Mf2tihc&feature=youtu.be

 

[Taytertot]

Another video if any other ROBs wanna weigh in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbT3Mf2tihc&feature=youtu.be

i realize that mario isnt always the easiest to edgeguard but i feel like there were a few times in that first game where you had him offstage and should have been able to confirm the kill cause i think you could have definitely won that first game. I definitely saw an edgeguard where you ledgehogged and so he recovered onstage with his upB and you did ledge roll or just regular getup when a ledgedash would have given you the time to punish his upB landing recovery. but also i think just jumping out when youve got someone is a bad position offstage and just waiting to see what they do would allow you to find the right option as that mario try to get around your threat zone instead of you committing to an attack really quick and giving the mario player a

 

[Rubba Prime]

And another!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AXi24Eb7SA&feature=youtu.be

 

[Rubba Prime]

Senpai pls

 

[Sneez]

post vids in killbot, not here but i'll give a couple tips. only watched the first game but seems like you don't understand neutral, kept full hopping away and retreating when you wanna be fighting for the stage. stay on the ground more, dash dance, work on movement. and work on your ledge game, seemed like it could use work. esp against gannon you get easy edgeguards by refreshing invincibility on the ledge (heres an example). https://youtu.be/HcHjRKImaVw?t=3m42s

 

[Rubba Prime]

What's killbot?

 

[Taytertot]

What's killbot?

killbot is probably another rob thread dedicated to video critiques for those looking for advice from others. most character boards have a video critique thread

Edit: heres the video critique thread
http://smashboards.com/threads/v3-02-killbot-avi-r-o-b-video-thread.331697/

 

[Sneez]

yes notice that it is called killbot.avi, it's pinned to the top of the rob boards

 

[Rubba Prime]

Posted over there with no response. Considering it's a 3.02 thread, might be the time to make a new one.

 

[Tobb99]

Played a lot of PM in Beast 6, and I want to share some knowledge here.




I played against Can~D's bowser and I feel like you really need to play this matchup carefully as ROB. I'm quite an aggressive ROB using a lot of boost fair >jab/d-tilt/d-smash but I definitely couldn't approach recklessly with that. Camping with laser and gyro works really well, and glide toss is really good as a movement option. A gyro on the ground seems to be a bit troublesome for bowser since he's so big and doesn't got the best way of picking it up without committing too much. Grabs are probably really good since bowser is so big and ROB got good follow-ups from grab, just watch out for the combo breaker nair. Edgeguard with lasers and down angled F-smash is really good as well. When recovering you need to be tricky, bowsers edgeguard game is one of his major strengths. In a lot of matchups you're pretty safe going high but not against bowser. His ledge jump bair is deadly and you want to avoid it at all cost, you can bait it out by pretending your going high and staying just outside range and the recover low back to the stage, it's good if you succeed. You want to watch out for bowsers nair, dair, flames, down-b and side-b when bowser is above you. All those are quite good option when bowser is coming down from above. In this matchup you want a big stage with big blastzones, like dreamland and delfinos. Stage without platforms like FD are also good since bowser gets great movement from platform stages such as Battlefield Warioland, Yoshi (melee).




I played against TDX's Kirby and i feel like it's a bad matchup but not super bad, definitely doable. the problem in this matchup is when Kirby gets in it's trouble, and your off-stage it's really rough as well. But ROB got some strengths as well. I found that pressuring with boost fair can be really good, and that you can gain on being on the offense. ROB also got big hitboxes, so nair can sometimes kill, especially if the ceiling is low. You can also camp, and laser I think is good in this matchup. Edgeguarding is tough, but you still want to challenge Kirby off stage, you don't have much risk, since he just hit you back on stage, maybe gets good stage positioning in worst case. When recovering you need to be really careful and tricky, his bair is really strong edgeguard tool, and you want to mix up horizontal and vertical boost as well as saving your jump and jumping early. If you play on stage with platforms it can definitely help. Kirby is a bit similar to Jiggs in the regard that he can't get high up quickly, so if you can you can sometimes recover to the top platform safely if he's not in a good position, and some times mix up going low when he thinks you're going to go high. You also want to avoid the hammer as it has low end lag and huge knockback. And speaking of hammer you also want to avoid grabs since ROBs tech options are garbage and Kirby tech-chases are good and if gets a good read he can hammer/F-smash/U-smash and get the stock. After playing a while I experiment a bit with platform camping. As I said above Kirby cant reach high quickly, if he wants to he'll need to use some jumps in order to do so. And he also doesn't a good u-air or something challenging platform camp so it's not that bad. the only thing is that I don't know if ROB got such good options out of it either. I guess you could try to get below him and try to u-air or n-air. Or maybe hit a nair through the platform idk. If you got a stock lead it might be an option stalling the game, testing their patience. I think stages with a low ceiling are good in this matchup because of nair and U-throw. Platforms might be good, if you play on a stage with platforms watch out for Kirby's dash attack of platform tricks/approaches. All in all it's a bad matchup but definitely doable, probably 60-40 or 65-35 Kirby's favor.




I played against TDX, and Mario and Kirby player. I got to say that I feel like this MU is in ROBs favor. We got better crouch cancel then Mario, great combos on Mario, and good edgeguard on Mario. I didn't even have any problem in this MU, sometimes if I found my self in a tough spot I could just CC D-smash and start a combo of it, seems really cheap and it worked. Use your projectiles wisely so they doesn't get reflected back at you, and that's a solid option. When edgeguarding first just your projectiles and then you can actually go out off stage and fair them. The best Mario can do is early up-b and cape, and both option doesn't do much for Mario, while the reward is really good if you get fair since it can finish the edgeguard. And if he needs to down-b to gain height, he should be dead. Go and fair or dair if he's close to you, or laser if he tries to it early. One big thing in this matchup is that ROB can live way longer than Mario does, and ROB also has solid approach options and combo game. Big stages definitely are good in this matchup, no surprise really. I think platforms can help ROB more than it can help Mario also. Probably a 60-40 matchup to ROB.




I played against a good Olimar player named GIL. This matchup is tricky. First of you want to know what every pikmin does and what attributes they got (blue got kill throws, purple has really good knockback etc.). Being a ROB and Olimar main, I didn't have this problem. You can look at the color his bulb to see what pikmin that is first in line, so if it's yellow he got a yellow first in line, and if it's grey he got no pikmins. If he got no pikmins he basically becomes completely bad, most of his moves requires pikmin to even use. The list of moves that requires pikmins are: All smash attacks, F-air, B-air, U-air, D-air, grab and side-B (pikmin throw). D-smash also takes 2 pikmin to use at it's full potential, one in the front and one back, if he only has 1 he'll only attack forward so if you stand behind him you won't get hit.
One thing about Olimar you need to know is that he got deceptively strong moves for being such a small character. Try using b-air/f-air with purple or red and you'll see what I mean. So you need to respect his airials and also his F-smash which got really good range with every pikmin except purple. What you should look for in this matchup I think is to get Olimar in the air, he has a tough time landing but on the contrary is a really solid character with stage control. Another thing you need to know is that Olimars recovery sucks. F-smash is my favorite tool for edgeguarding Olimar, a down angled f-smash covers sweetspot well. Obviosly use lasters and gyro before that to keep him away from the stage and hopefully take his double jump or airial pikmin pluck, which is a decent recovery option for Olimar. I don't think offstage edgeguard are that good in this MU, because there is a risk getting hit by Up-b and then you basically failed your edgeguard attempt, and edgeguarding I feel is ROB strongest advantage in this MU. You want to play this matchup with respect I feel, becuase boost nair/fair can easily be intercepted by fairs/f-smashes/U-smashes/nairs and U-airs. I think you should camp and wait for an opportunity to get in and then try to get Olimar in a position he's not comfortable at, in the air or offstage. I think ROB's camp beat Olimars, with laser and Gyro against pikmin throws, you can even fair and nair the pikmins which is really good at times. When recovering you want to avoid the f-smash, it's a really strong option covering low recoveries, since Olimar can F-smash offstage and the pikmin falls down and hit you. D-smash is also really strong edgeguard option for Olimar. High recoveries are probably the safest but you want to be aware of that Olimar got an excellent coverage above himself with U-airs and U-smash. ROB's Side-B can work in this matchup but it can be CCd, it probably works best if he tries to throw a white or purple pikmin. I think that a big stage with big blastzones is definitely best for ROB, you most likely KO Olimar out of edgeguards or out of juggles with U-air or N-air, and since Olimar got such strong attacks a small stage like Warioland takes away ROBs recovery since he might simply die to fair or something like that. I feel like this matchup could be in Olimars favor, or even. Olimar seem to a lot of tools to deal with ROBs approaches as well as great combos with nair to fair and stuff like that, and also a great grab and a great punish out of grab.




I played against Charby's ZSS, and first, of he's a superb player for sure, secondly, this matchup sucks. That f*cking dair is nightmare for ROB, I tried DI right and left and still got hit by like 5 of those. I talked about that with him and he said that because ROB is so big you'll still take a lot of those even with good DI. And the dair is only one of ZSS good moves. Her nair is a good combo option, her U-air is basically like Falcons, Bair and Fair can kill and has great range, and neutral b is a good projectile. But the matchup is still doable you just need to play on point. Punish hard with U-airs, and D-smashes leads to a lot, and grabs are also really good, I think you chain-grab her at low %.You can find boost fair approaches at times, as well as side-b when they don't expect at higher %, you can also reflect ZSS neutral b with it. When you edgeguard you want to use you projectiles to take out her jump and down-b, and if she needs to recover low grab ledge quickly. That's besically how you edgeguard tether characters in this game, they are forced to jump and then you can bair or nair. If the ZSS is good like Charby, she'll obviously try to tether to the ledge as quickly as possible to prevent this, and if she does you can't do much. You can try to d-tilt if they stay on the ledge for to long, throw out a gyro to cover some ground, and try to keep stage positioning. I have no clue what stages are good in this matchup. Maybe stages with platforms. A big stage probably is better because you can camp and chose when to approach, but ZSS got great movement and also lethal airials so it's not a super good advantage I feel. The ratio is probably something like 60-40 or 65-35, you can do it if you play really well and punish hard, but it's tough.

 

[Sneez]

Ya I agree with your analysis for the most part. I'm gonna do another mu spread for my own purposes, feel free to ask why I think a certain way. +2: If you know what you're doing you should win, +1:Things generally work out without much mu exp, 0: Even, -1: Doable, but you need to know what to do, -2: Even when you know what to do you should lose

+2: Ganondorf

+1: Bowser, Falco, Ike, Jigglypuff, Lucas, Luigi, Mario, Marth, Ness, Olimar, Peach, Roy, Samus

0: Charizard, Diddy, Fox, Ivysaur, Kirby, Link, Lucario, Meta Knight, Mewtwo, Toon Link, Wolf, Yoshi, Zelda

-1: Captain Falcon, Dedede, Donkey Kong, Snake, Sheik, Wario

-2: Sonic, Game and Watch, ZSS


no high-level experience/not sure yet: IC's, Pikachu, Pit, Squirtle
If you know much about these 4 matchups let me know what you think about them. My guess is that IC's is +1 and the other 3 are even, obviously not sure though.

 

[Tobb99]

Lol like Zard is even. No way, pretty much every ROB thinks the matchup is -1 or -2. Zard can tech-chase ROB really well, got great speed, can space out ROB, has better CC, has great edgeguards, and never dies. The matchup is really bad I feel.
Haven't played a good Sonic so I don't know if the matchup is that bad, haven't heard anyone say it's that bad however.
G&W is known to be a bad matchup for ROB however.
I also don't think Wario is a disadvantageous matchup. Wario loses to spacing/zooning from what I've heard, and ROB is definitely good at that.
I haven't played much against Olimar but it might be even, or in Olimars favor. If Olimar gets his pikmins flowered, or strong pikmins such as purple and red, he can do some serious damage. Olimars nair can also beat CC, kind of like Fox dair, and can also combo with nair > nair/fair/bair/u-smash/d-tilt/u-tilt > fair/bair/u-smash. Oracle also seemed to struggle a bit against Shokio.

Here's their set in PM 3.6 beta.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEAwqQiPTSU

 

[Sneez]

Zard doesn't seem to give me too much trouble, a good set to watch in this mu is Timi vs Zen, looks pretty even to me: https://youtu.be/GQaooON-Vgg. Wario is kinda tough because he combos rob from 0-60 pretty easily with a grab. Also killing Wario is pretty hard, I've found that side-b upair tends to be a good option. But ya if you play the mu well it is very doable. I really don't think Olimar is favored, rob has some really nice stuff in the mu. Olimar is a great combo weight for fair chains, our grounded side-b reflects his fsmash (lol), and edgeguarding is super easy.

 

[bubbaking]

I agree with Tobb about Zard and Sonic. On top of what he already said, Zard has a great grab game to take advantage of our terrible OoS game, and between uthrow and bthrow > fair/usmash tech-chase on plat, he can kill us fairly early. Also, he can easily respond to use trying to boost in just a little too high with nair or dash-under usmash.

Sonic pretty much loses to CC and hitboxes. Having a gyro out also makes neutral hard for him, since it will clank with all of his moves. I don't think anyone really says Sonic beats us.

I don't agree about Oli, though. We out-camp him for sure, since we have laser and gyro and a reflector. One of Oli's biggest strengths, outside of racking damage through camping, is juggling, but we're pretty decent at getting out of juggles with boosts.

 

[Tobb99]

I've only played against 1 Sonic. It was at Beast 5, first round of bracket. I remembered that I could punish Sonic quite hard on D-smashes and grabs. However you should respect Sonics edgeguard game since he has lots of options. You should also be aware of your percent since if you CC and fail at higher percents your likely to get caught off stage in bad position off stage. I remembered that my opponent played more defensively game 2 which was quite scary with Sonic's speed and ROB's mediocre approaches.


On the Olimar matchup. Hmm when I think about it ROB might have an edge. I think gimps and recovery particularly could be a strong factor in this matchup, in which ROB shines. Still, Olimar got some stuff, he can combo ROB easily with nairs, fairs, u-airs, u-tilt, u-smashes, dair and with the right pikmin the combos can deal lots of damage as well. Olimar can also kill at higher percents with nair > Fair/Bair/Uair and U-trow > Fair/Bair/Uair. And also Olimar got moves to beat CC, and especially with better pikmins (with bud or flower), the most noteworthy being nair. I think a big part also can be if Olimar can close out stock quickly through a great combo, since if he can't he can have trouble killing since he can't combo into a KO move, but have to hit with a raw KO. If your thinking about stages it's very clear that bigger stage with bigger blast-zones benefit ROB due to his ability to camp and edgeguard. A small stage such as Warioland is definitely to avoid, since Olimar's combos becomes even more lethal.


Also if you face an Olimar there are good ways of removing pikmins. Generally Arm Rotor (Side-B) removes all pikmin at all parts, but Jab, U-tilt and nair and fair are also good, since Side-B is kind of committal.

More detailed info:
If ROB got a pikmin on the front (on his hands) there are:
Dash attack, Jab, D-tilt, U-tilt, D-smash, Nair, Fair, Arm Rotor (Side-B), Gyro (if you walk into the gyro and the pikmin gets hit).

But some options does not work/only works if your side-b'd on the back (if the pikmin latches on to ROB's back).
Then F-tilt, U-tilt, D-smash, Bair, Uair and Arm Rotor, Gyro (if you walk into it) works.

And it's a lot more difficult to remove if a pikmin latches on to ROB's shoulder (this mostly happens if the Olimar short hops Side-b or throws a yellow pikmin).
If ROB got a yellow on himself then only these options work: U-tilt, Arm Rotor

If the pikmin latches on to ROBs lower body these options work:
Dash attack, D-tilt, F-tilt, U-tilt, D-smash, U-smash, Nair, Bair, U-air, Fair (only if the pikmin is attached to the front part of the lower body, not the back), Arm Rotor, Gyro (if you walk into it)

It can also latch on to ROB's face, if that's the case these options work:
Dash attack, D-tilt, F-tilt, U-tilt, F-smash, Fair, U-air, Laser, Arm Rotor, Gyro (if you walk into it)

 

[Sneez]

Ok maybe zard could be slightly favored but I really don't think he's much of a problem. Rob is just a much better character in the long run. However, I probably know the ROB sonic mu better than anyone in the world, I've played zenokids a billion times and I guarantee you it's a nightmare. No, cc is not effective against a good sonic. Sonic's approaches keep moving through you or crossing you up, even bouncing off your head, against a good sonic you will never get cc dsmash. ROB's big hitboxes all come out super slow so it's a hard read if you hit sonic with them. I think of sonic as a falcon except you don't get good punishes or edgeguards. Sonic's recovery is super hard to edgeguard, I don't even try a lot of the time. Sonic can combo rob really well with rob's big body, as well as edgeguarding with fair, dair, and the spring.

 

[Tobb99]

Your right CC don't work that well, you could even try it against a CPU to find out. I'm not sure if there is a more elaborated CC that might work. For example CC forward or backward. I don't know if CC works at low percents, but Side-B+attack seems to completely mess up CC and can even put ROB in a bad spot off stage in certain scenarios. A gyro on the ground could limit his movement slightly, but a good Sonic surely could find ways around it and/or pick it up. And Sonic also has a tech-chase throw out of D-throw. And y, Sonic is sort of like a Falcon in a lot of ways, but still very different. I think you should avoid long stages that could give Sonic lots of movement options, maybe fight him like Falcon and try to limit him. I'd like to hear more about the matchup, Sneez, what options are good in the MU, how to DI/SDI certain moves etc. Could be very useful since Sonic's quite a unique character.

Also Bubba, aren't multi-hit moves good against CC, like Fox dair for example. If that's the case, then Sonic shouldn't lose to CC since he has plenty of multi-hit moves. Also what do mean by "loses to hitboxes".

 

[Sneez]

against sonic I try to stay behind the top to limit ground approaches, then sh fair/nair when he jumps towards me. sonic will pretty much always upthrow, don't DI offstage cuz sonic gets a free dair. DI in and you can try to sdi out of the up air. If you grab sonic try to dthrow into a fair chain, you'll likely only get 1 or 2 even at low percent though. If he DI's the grab in you can try to reverse bair into regrab or something. Glide toss down and away is pretty important in the matchup too, its a good way of protecting yourself. This is the most recent set with me and zeno, and from now on I'll play diddy against sonic since its way easier. https://youtu.be/G-wbtErSAqg. Zeno played bad the first two games and just ran into me a bunch, then finally started being smart and it got really hard for me.

 

[Tobb99]

Thanks Sneez for the info!

Also Bubba I'm not sure if Sonic "loses to CC". In Smash 4 I've heard he loses to lingering hitboxes that can easily and safely out-prioritize his small rapid hitboxes. Don't know if this applies to PM as well, but maybe.

 

[bubbaking]

You are not CCing with the goal of directly landing a crouch-cancel counter (CCC), such as dsmash. You are CCing so that you are not knocked down and can immediately chase Sonic as he passes through/bounces off of you. Our OoS options are bad, so shielding Sonic's pressure doesn't do much for us unless he HAs or we have a gyro in hand. Also, we actually do have a fast CCC, albeit admittedly not always a great one: usmash. I've played a few Sonics in tournament and I never really had trouble with them as long as I made sure not to chase them. Having a gyro out in this MU is crucial. All of Sonic's moves clank with it, and it's not as easy for Sonic to go around it and/or pick it up as you think, since you should be ready to punish such attempts. The grounded gyro is actually very useful in all of our MUs against chars faster than us (Sonic, Falcon, etc.) because of the stage control it exerts when you stand somewhat close to it. We can fair or ftilt over it, laser past it, and pick it up to use as a projectile, among many, many other things. You also should know how to fight against an opponent who's successfully picked up our gyro. SideB becomes significantly more useful, and our pressure game in general gets better since our opponent's attacking options are cut. Our punish game on Sonic is not great, but IIRC, we get some decent things off dthrow, such as usmash (DACUS if you have to). Not that we'll be grabbing him a bunch, but his tech-roll is surprisingly bad for such a fast character. As for edgeguarding, both chars can edgeguard the other fairly well if they go low. ROB can dangle fsmash and Sonic can spring. Don't forget laser snipes, which are universally good in all our MUs. Honestly, I don't really mind long stages against Sonic as long as I'm using my gyro well.

Also Bubba, aren't multi-hit moves good against CC, like Fox dair for example. If that's the case, then Sonic shouldn't lose to CC since he has plenty of multi-hit moves. Also what do mean by "loses to hitboxes".

Multi-hit moves are indeed good against CC, but last I checked, while Sonic can kind of attack quickly in succession, he doesn't actually have any multi-hit moves. At low %'s, we can actually take all of them without getting knocked down. As for my hitboxes comment, well most of Sonic's fast-moving hitboxes (basically his 'ball' ones) are pretty bad. I like to refer to them as having "negative priority" because the hitboxes for them are actually inside of Sonic's hurtbox for most/all of the moves' durations, so they don't protect him. Check 'em out:

Spoiler

You can check the other ball moves for yourself in Debug Mode. As you can see, these hitboxes won't really be directly beating out other moves very often, so you can probably guess that if you have a big move, such as fair or nair, already out when Sonic comes in, your move will win. Personally, when a Sonic starts to rush me, I like to SH nair backwards since it covers me with a large hitbox and ACs directly afterwards.

lso Bubba I'm not sure if Sonic "loses to CC". In Smash 4 I've heard he loses to lingering hitboxes that can easily and safely out-prioritize his small rapid hitboxes. Don't know if this applies to PM as well, but maybe.

Pretty much the same thing applies in PM. Sonic in all of his Smash iterations has pretty bad hitboxes for his fast-travelling moves (it's how you balance those kinds of moves in general) so they lose to, trade with, or clank with most other moves, rarely beating any of them out cleanly.

 

[Kneato]

Matchup from 's Perspective (+3 has ROB winning)

+3:
+2:
+1:
0:
-1:
-2:

-3:

?:

What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate? What about the unknown matchups?

This is for updating the (outdated) community matchup chart.