Utah Thread - Dead thread is dead

[Tsuteto]

But by acknowledging it, is it really ignored?

 

[Support.]

If you have an extra Wii Mote and nunchuck I'll buy it.

It comes with 3 wii motes and a nunchaku.

 

[Z'zgashi]

But by acknowledging it, is it really ignored?

Thats all up to your interpretation.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

bai support

hope rl stuff works out for ya.

I'm going to post my own tier list, mostly just to see what input you guys have to offer.

Top

Fox
Zelda Too high. She has massive problems against people who wisen up and realise they can just remove Din's by hitting it with an aerial. She's too slow so she can't keep away long enough to set up her stage control unless the enemy lets her. She's high tier or upper mid for sure though, and could possibly be a top tier threat if she was slightly faster or Din's couldn't clank.
Lucas
Wolf
Mario
Falco Should be below Fox.
Ivysaur Basically Zelda except focuses on more mid range zoning potential. I'm not sure if she belongs in top tier after her nerfs.

High

Sonic
Snake
Squirtle
Roy Not higher than Marth, and definitely not high tier. Double Edge Dance is amazing though, but that doesn't stop him from simply having terrible attributes and being predictable. He is literally the same as melee, spam down tilt, grab and DED and hope they walk into a forward smash. Hopefully you can understand why this is not reliable.
Marth
Mewtwo

Upper Mid

Ike
Donkey Kong
Kirby
Metaknight Not high enough. Even after all the nerfs I would say that MK is at least 5th or 6th best character in the game. MK's disjoints are still absurd even after being toned down immensely in P:M.
Lucario I think he has potential, however the metagame hasn't developed enough yet. Very high skill floor and ceiling imo.
Captain Falcon
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Toon Link

Mid

Wario
Ganondorf Worst character in the game. Terrible neutral options and zero mobility to make up for it, unlike his clone Cpt. Falcon, he can't just close an entire stage of distance in half a second, so he suffers massively against anyone he needs to approach (everyone).
Charizard
Sheik lolsheik
Zero Suit Samus
Pikachu
Bowser Underrated. Heavy/Light armor is always amazing on characters and Bowser has a lot of it >.>
Luigi
Samus

Low

Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers
Yoshi
Peach Too low. It's Peach. She's basically the same as Melee, if not better. Putting her low tier is absurd.
Mr. Game & Watch
Ness

Bottom

Jigglypuff See Peach.
Olimar Good character. Just no one knows it yet, ala Brawl. Give him a tier list or two and he'll be upper mid tier (trust me on this one)


Thoughts?

Answers in red

 

[Mr. Fox]

@ KuroganeHammer

Responses:

Zelda- It doesn't matter if you can take it out with an aerial, she places them faster than you can deal with them. Also, her speed doesn't matter because she's campy, plus she has a lagless teleport.
Falco- Once I start seeing Falco players win P:M tourneys, I'll believe you.
Ivysaur- You may not be, but I'm sure Ivy is top tier. Consistent tourney results, a versatile moveset and playstyle, and incredible zoning as well as comboing.
Roy- You may be right on this one. Tbh, I was thinking of moving Marth and Roy to upper mid tier.
Metaknight- I really wouldn't know with MK, so I practically guessed with him.
Lucario- There's a good amount of Lucario players I've seen. If he truly had as much potential as people say he does, he would be doing better. Also, his skill floor is tiny. Noobs literally just press A and aim in random directions and stuff happens.
Ganondorf- His neutral game is awful, but his punishes are insane. If he gets one Side B or grab, a half competent player can deal a good 30% off of it. Also, his kill options are outstanding. Down B and Fair come to mind. Both of which can be comboed into.
Sheik- Not sure how to take this comment.
Bowser- Hmm. I think you've got Ivysaur's analysis switched up with Bowser's. It's Bowser that got nerfed into oblivion.
Peach- Yeah, you're probably right.
Jigglypuff- No. I am completely adamant in this one character. With the obvious nerf to her Rest's hitbox/comboing ability, combined with the buff to overall recoveries in P:M, Jigglypuff suffers.
Olimar- Sure.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

@ Mr. Fox

Some of these seem more like opinions than facts, I can assure you that Zelda cannot set up Din's faster than almost anyone can run at her.

Fair enough with Ivysaur and Falco and maybe Lucario too.

About Ganondorf, he could do that in Brawl too but that didn't make him good. Insane punishes does not a good character make.

About Jigglypuff... she is literally a straight port from Melee. Rest is unchanged, her hitstun is unchanged, her everything is unchanged, soo... Not really sure what nerfs you're referring to.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

It comes with 3 wii motes and a nunchaku.

I already have the other stuff, but I'd be willing to buy the two wii motes if they have motion plus. Just name a price.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Actual tier list confirmed by Random.org

Lucas
Charizard
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus
Metaknight
Wario
Sheik

Peach
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Lucario

Ivysaur
Marth
Olimar
King Dedede
Ganondorf
Luigi
Captain Falcon
Snake
Falco
Ness
Mario

Yoshi
Squirtle
Zelda
Fox
Jigglypuff
Ice Climbers
Ike
Samus
Pikachu
Roy
Bowser
Sonic
Mr. Game & Watch
Wolf
R.O.B.

Mewtwo

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Still better than Clash Tournament's.

 

[socandrewcer]

@ Mr. Fox

Some of these seem more like opinions than facts, I can assure you that Zelda cannot set up Din's faster than almost anyone can run at her.

Fair enough with Ivysaur and Falco and maybe Lucario too.

About Ganondorf, he could do that in Brawl too but that didn't make him good. Insane punishes does not a good character make.

About Jigglypuff... she is literally a straight port from Melee. Rest is unchanged, her hitstun is unchanged, her everything is unchanged, soo... Not really sure what nerfs you're referring to.

Hardcore agree about Jiggs

 

[Tsuteto]

As a Zelda main, I can back up that some characters can punch through Din's faster than can be set up, which can only be off set by doing a back jumping side B to keep some distance (which can work surprisingly well). Zelda's game primarily comes from being able to trick your opponent into doing something, and abusing that as much as possible. When it comes to straight out skill level, not as much, but she's definitely high tier material with her zoning capabilities (Kenny should know this best, as I boxed his Marth completely with very little chance out, even with aerial strikes).

As a Ganon secondary, yeah, he's not the greatest, but he's definitely not bottom. I would probably say low of low, but I haven't messed with him too much. But most good players and use him as a beach ball. His punishes have minor follow up, and on an overall skill basis, still has others that can out skill him.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

As a Ganon secondary, yeah, he's not the greatest, but he's definitely not bottom. I would probably say low of low, but I haven't messed with him too much. But most good players and use him as a beach ball. His punishes have minor follow up, and on an overall skill basis, still has others that can out skill him.

someone's gotta be at the bottom m8

(and I just don't see it being anyone else. MAYBE G&W or Ness. idk.)

 

[Tsuteto]

There's someone down there, but I don't think Ganon. But then again, I'm not the most competitive at it currently, so I could be wrong. Besides, my use of his f-tilt is beastlike XD

 

[Z'zgashi]

Its clearly Mewtwo.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Besides, my use of his f-tilt is beastlike XD

That move is rage-inducing >__>

*zelda up b's away to sleep*

 

[Jekyll]

That move is rage-inducing >__>

Amen to that...

 

[Perfect Chaos]

WiiU uses them.

But you can probably buy them for even cheaper in 2 years, when technology advances and the cost of making these decreases.

 

[Sinz]

@ Mr. Fox

Some of these seem more like opinions than facts, I can assure you that Zelda cannot set up Din's faster than almost anyone can run at her.

Fair enough with Ivysaur and Falco and maybe Lucario too.

About Ganondorf, he could do that in Brawl too but that didn't make him good. Insane punishes does not a good character make.

About Jigglypuff... she is literally a straight port from Melee. Rest is unchanged, her hitstun is unchanged, her everything is unchanged, soo... Not really sure what nerfs you're referring to.

Olimar is not good. His moveset is actually quite limited. If he does become "good' its just a matter of learning his few gimmicks and he will be shut down again. He isn't good. A large portion of his attacks have **** priority. He has 0 grab armor. His camping game is good but too many characters can get in on him too easily.

also @everyone the distance from Top to bottom tier in pm is more like the distance from Top to mid high in melee. The characters are all viable.(Except maybe Oli. I think he may one event here and there but then go into nothingness if it happens)

 

[Meleeruler]

Well Support, it was fun while it last, man. Good luck in your endeavors.

Also, Ganondorf might not be all that good but he's mad fun.

 

[Sinz]

Well Support, it was fun while it last, man. Good luck in your endeavors.

Also, Ganondorf might not be all that good but he's mad fun.

I think Ganon is still pretty good. That ftilt is amazing. His dash attack is really good too.

 

[Meleeruler]

His down-b is really good too as long as you're not playing against Jekyll.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Olimar is basically Brawl Olimar except slightly toned down. I respect peoples opinion that they think he's bad, but I will refuse to accept it until more time passes.

People thought he was low tier in Brawl, now he's 3rd best character. P:M gave him a better recovery for a slightly less absurd ground game. Actually I'd argue that it's more absurd in certain respects; like being able to grab > dthrow/uthrow > up smash > upsmash for like, 40-50% damage with literally zero skill involved.

His camping game is silly and so is his pivot grab (still).

Iunno.

 

[Tsuteto]

Why do anything other than f-tilt against Jekyll with Ganon? I practically 4 stocked him with that alone </exaggeration>

And I have yet to find his dash attack useful, I think. I dunno, it's been awhile. I need to get out more.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

But you can probably buy them for even cheaper in 2 years, when technology advances and the cost of making these decreases.

Controllers are the only things that haven't dropped in price.

 

[Sinz]

Olimar is basically Brawl Olimar except slightly toned down. I respect peoples opinion that they think he's bad, but I will refuse to accept it until more time passes.

People thought he was low tier in Brawl, now he's 3rd best character. P:M gave him a better recovery for a slightly less absurd ground game. Actually I'd argue that it's more absurd in certain respects; like being able to grab > dthrow/uthrow > up smash > upsmash for like, 40-50% damage with literally zero skill involved.

His camping game is silly and so is his pivot grab (still).

Iunno.

I tried Olimar. I really tried. His recovery is a lot better but his mid range and close range game are not worth it. His grab range is smaller than Link and Lucas's.(Except with a yellow or a white) His punish game is mediocre.

Honestly if they just ported Olimar from Brawl and let him tether onto ledges like in PM he'd be really good. But this version of him is really mediocre.

His recovery consists of

B to rise a tiny bit. (only once!)
Up b to tether. (The damage from it is minimal and has terrible knockback. Never use it offensively)
Whistle reversing.

His midrange game consists of

side b waveland. (If you don't wave land its too easy to punish!)

Thats it.

His pikmin have terrible priority.

He has trouble with shield pressure. His only options are to shield grab or Up smash out of shield(Not too bad of an option altogether. Just really predictable.) His roll animation is ****ty. And his shield grab is absolute **** because he doesn't have grab armor. if he had some grab armor it would be good but it doesn't.

The only time you should be beating someone with Olimar is if you are leagues above them in skill level. In which case you're better off putting your time into any other character.

 

[Roguay]

So now with @ Support. gone, the torch falls back to our hero, young @ Superw0rri0 for my fix of tournaments in the SLC area. Whens my next NeumontJam™ son?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I tried Olimar. I really tried. His recovery is a lot better but his mid range and close range game are not worth it. His grab range is smaller than Link and Lucas's.(Except with a yellow or a white) His punish game is mediocre.

Honestly if they just ported Olimar from Brawl and let him tether onto ledges like in PM he'd be really good. But this version of him is really mediocre.

His recovery consists of

B to rise a tiny bit. (only once!)
Up b to tether. (The damage from it is minimal and has terrible knockback. Never use it offensively)
Whistle reversing.

His midrange game consists of

side b waveland. (If you don't wave land its too easy to punish!)

Thats it.

His pikmin have terrible priority.

He has trouble with shield pressure. His only options are to shield grab or Up smash out of shield(Not too bad of an option altogether. Just really predictable.) His roll animation is ****ty. And his shield grab is absolute **** because he doesn't have grab armor. if he had some grab armor it would be good but it doesn't.

The only time you should be beating someone with Olimar is if you are leagues above them in skill level. In which case you're better off putting your time into any other character.

I find it difficult to argue with this since you bring up some valid points.

Just a couple of things, White and Blue actually have the longest range (and also happen to have the most devastating grab options).

How do you define priority? I've been looking at the Pikmin attacks and they don't seem that bad.

Also I do want to mention too that lack of grab armor didn't stop him from being a top tier threat in Brawl either.

Other than that we might have to agree to disagree and wait for the metagame to develop further =P

 

[Sinz]

I find it difficult to argue with this since you bring up some valid points.

Just a couple of things, White and Blue actually have the longest range (and also happen to have the most devastating grab options).

How do you define priority? I've been looking at the Pikmin attacks and they don't seem that bad.

Also I do want to mention too that lack of grab armor didn't stop him from being a top tier threat in Brawl either.

Other than that we might have to agree to disagree and wait for the metagame to develop further =P

The lack of grab armor is a much bigger issue in PM than it is in Brawl.

In brawl not as many characters had a bunch of shield pressure options. While in PM the shield pressure options are abundant.

Take Lucas for example.

He has 3 moves that are amazing for shield pressure.(Nair, Dair, and down B. )

If Lucas is doing Dair into DownB into shffld dair Olimar literally cannot grab him. (For a few reasons. 1. Oli has trouble grabbing people in the air(he can grab their feet but the pikmin grab pick up ranges are very low) 2. The shield grab animation is terrible.)

Add in the spacies. Falcon. Mewtwo. And many others you end up with a massive assortment of terrible match ups.

@BLUE and White. You are probably right. Besides those are the only ones you really want for throws.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

@BLUE and White. You are probably right. Besides those are the only ones you really want for throws.

ofc im right, i have the data to prove it :>

 

[Sinz]

ofc im right, i have the data to prove it :>

**** data

its all about them feels

 

[Superw0rri0]

Hey guys, for the past week i have been going though some hardships in Mylife like losing my fiancé losing my job I am not mentally stable anymore. But i have been doing better but what does this have to do with you guys? 1. I am done with competitive gaming In every aspect of it. 2. I'm selling my Wii Melee and brawl(PM included) all for 150.00. Thank you all for being great friends but I have go. If you're Interested in this my number is 8019281439 thank you guys again for being so damn helpful.
Support out!

@ Support.
My doc prodigy

See ya man... You're tourneys we're damn awesome and you were a pretty cool dude.

I hope you figure things out and things start turning around for you.

I'll keep you in my prayers. Also.... if there is anything we can do to help let us know.

So now with @ Support. gone, the torch falls back to our hero, young @ Superw0rri0 for my fix of tournaments in the SLC area. Whens my next NeumontJam™ son?

So here's the deal... our gaming club is responsible for the last tourney... I'm in it. Our "higher ups"/event organizers have been really busy with school these last couple of quarters. However, I have volunteered to take up responsibility in organizing and managing events. What I would like to do is host monthlies and maybe bi-weekly friendlies. If our club is not fine with this i'm just gonna foster a smash club and do things on my own. I don't really need our gaming club in order to host tourney's, it's just easier if the tournament is run with it's name behind it and it supports the club. There won't be a tournament until at least a couple weeks into the next quarter, which starts next week.

I'm going to talk to our school's event "administrator" to see if we can do anything cool for this. The biggest issue with hosting tourneys at Neumont is that all Neumont events are supposed to include the students.... hosting a tourney where it's just me and a bunch of guests from outside the school isn't something that I want. I need and want to involve neumont students as well and the funny thing is, student participation is an issue at our school but the new Cohort is looking promising. In our last tourney, only 4 Neumont students entered and I thought that was really lame. I'm gonna be doing a but load of advertising and bringing up awareness for this as I want it to be as big as possible. The only thing holding me back personally is that I myself have a lot of classes this quarter (20 credits/5 classes (4 of which are super important)) and I can't fail a single one but I should be able to put some time aside once a month for a tourney.

On another note:
According to everyone's feedback, parking sucked ass so I'll do some research and try to find a good parking solution for you guys. Is there anything else that I should consider to improve on.... maybe I could provide food if enough people show up.

I'll make sure to keep you guys posted.

Edit:
Also @ Roguay
I'm gonna take your "NeumontJam", change it to Neumont Smash Jam, and make the logo based off of the Space Jam title picture.

 

[adlp]

ill be your doc prodigy bro. i get melee in the mail tomorrow. havent owned it since early 2000's

 

[Mr. Fox]

@ Mr. Fox

Some of these seem more like opinions than facts, I can assure you that Zelda cannot set up Din's faster than almost anyone can run at her.

Fair enough with Ivysaur and Falco and maybe Lucario too.

About Ganondorf, he could do that in Brawl too but that didn't make him good. Insane punishes does not a good character make.

About Jigglypuff... she is literally a straight port from Melee. Rest is unchanged, her hitstun is unchanged, her everything is unchanged, soo... Not really sure what nerfs you're referring to.

These are opinions...that's what I stated in the tier list post.

Ok, I may have exaggerated slightly about Din's Fire, but her camping game is still stupidly good. Lagless teleport makes gaining stage control just THAT easy. Combine that with Din's Fire of course, Nayru's Love, a quick move that reflects projectiles and many physical approaches, and fast, powerful smash attacks, and you have a character that has a very very broken skill-success ratio.

Insane punishes does not a good character make? Have you ever played against Jigglypuff in Melee?

Speaking of Jiggs, maybe she wasn't nerfed, but buffed overall recovery and more tools to get out of combos means she has a harder time, and I swear it seems like her utilt and uair have less hitstun.

 

[Superw0rri0]

ill be your doc prodigy bro. i get melee in the mail tomorrow. havent owned it since early 2000's

Woots... more docs.... Doc is better than fox! VIVA LA REVOLUCION!

 

[KuroganeHammer]

These are opinions...that's what I stated in the tier list post.

Ok, I may have exaggerated slightly about Din's Fire, but her camping game is still stupidly good. Lagless teleport makes gaining stage control just THAT easy. Combine that with Din's Fire of course, Nayru's Love, a quick move that reflects projectiles and many physical approaches, and fast, powerful smash attacks, and you have a character that has a very very broken skill-success ratio.

Insane punishes does not a good character make? Have you ever played against Jigglypuff in Melee?

Speaking of Jiggs, maybe she wasn't nerfed, but buffed overall recovery and more tools to get out of combos means she has a harder time, and I swear it seems like her utilt and uair have less hitstun.

Jigglypuff's punishes in Melee were reliable because of her mobility, which is something Ganon doesn't have.

idk about tools to get out of combos, but like I said, she is literally a cookie cutter of her former self and therefore cannot really be anything less than upper mid tier imho.

Well, actually I think there was a small bug with Rest that they fixed regarding intangibility frames & DACUS in exchange for a slightly worse fthrow, so... I guess buffed?

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

I talk a little bit with the PM team. And it turns out Olimar is bad because they didn't know what to do with him as a character, but they didn't want the campy/defensive play of brawl so they removed stuff and didn't really add much to his kit. One of my friends who was accepted on the team about a month or two ago says he has a couple ideas for Olimar and he's gonna try and make him an actual character.

 

[Mr. Fox]

Jigglypuff's punishes in Melee were reliable because of her mobility, which is something Ganon doesn't have.

idk about tools to get out of combos, but like I said, she is literally a cookie cutter of her former self and therefore cannot really be anything less than upper mid tier imho.

Well, actually I think there was a small bug with Rest that they fixed regarding intangibility frames & DACUS in exchange for a slightly worse fthrow, so... I guess buffed?

Well you've got me on Ganondorf. Good point.

I still can't see Jiggs being even upper mid tier. Even Hbox doesn't use Jiggs in P:M. He's forced to use Mario if he's playing serious.

 

[Sinz]

These are opinions...that's what I stated in the tier list post.

Ok, I may have exaggerated slightly about Din's Fire, but her camping game is still stupidly good. Lagless teleport makes gaining stage control just THAT easy. Combine that with Din's Fire of course, Nayru's Love, a quick move that reflects projectiles and many physical approaches, and fast, powerful smash attacks, and you have a character that has a very very broken skill-success ratio.

Insane punishes does not a good character make? Have you ever played against Jigglypuff in Melee?

Speaking of Jiggs, maybe she wasn't nerfed, but buffed overall recovery and more tools to get out of combos means she has a harder time, and I swear it seems like her utilt and uair have less hitstun.

You're over rating Zelda.

Her camping isn't actually that ridiculous. You just have to learn how to deal with Din's Fire.

Nayru's Love is her best move. It's a nice get out of jail move.

Jiggs was good because she had good match ups where it mattered. Jiggs has more bad match ups than she did in Melee. She was great in Melee because she had great match ups against the Characters that mattered. She still has those same match ups but there are more that she isn't fantastic in. Jiggs was counterpicked with Young Link for ****s sake. Her best tool was her zoning with her Bair. However, now more characters have more options.

Jiggs isn't worse. It's just that other characters are getting better. Jiggs is still good.

Also Mario is ****in fantastic.(screw those fireballs.)

 

[Mr. Fox]

You're over rating Zelda.

Her camping isn't actually that ridiculous. You just have to learn how to deal with Din's Fire.

Nayru's Love is her best move. It's a nice get out of jail move.

Jiggs was good because she had good match ups where it mattered. Jiggs has more bad match ups than she did in Melee. She was great in Melee because she had great match ups against the Characters that mattered. She still has those same match ups but there are more that she isn't fantastic in. Jiggs was counterpicked with Young Link for ****s sake. Her best tool was her zoning with her Bair. However, now more characters have more options.

Jiggs isn't worse. It's just that other characters are getting better. Jiggs is still good.

Also Mario is ****in fantastic.(screw those fireballs.)

By all means, tell me how to deal with Din's Fire.

Jiggs isn't worse. It's just that other characters are getting better. Jiggs is still good. Isn't this almost identical to what I just said? Sinz, I understand that she isn't worse, I explained that same point in my post. All I said about her getting worse was that it seemed to me as though her utilt and uair had less hitstun.

Yes. Mario is pretty good in this game.

 

[Baky]

@ Support.
My doc prodigy

See ya man... You're tourneys we're damn awesome and you were a pretty cool dude.

I hope you figure things out and things start turning around for you.

I'll keep you in my prayers. Also.... if there is anything we can do to help let us know.



So here's the deal... our gaming club is responsible for the last tourney... I'm in it. Our "higher ups"/event organizers have been really busy with school these last couple of quarters. However, I have volunteered to take up responsibility in organizing and managing events. What I would like to do is host monthlies and maybe bi-weekly friendlies. If our club is not fine with this i'm just gonna foster a smash club and do things on my own. I don't really need our gaming club in order to host tourney's, it's just easier if the tournament is run with it's name behind it and it supports the club. There won't be a tournament until at least a couple weeks into the next quarter, which starts next week.

I'm going to talk to our school's event "administrator" to see if we can do anything cool for this. The biggest issue with hosting tourneys at Neumont is that all Neumont events are supposed to include the students.... hosting a tourney where it's just me and a bunch of guests from outside the school isn't something that I want. I need and want to involve neumont students as well and the funny thing is, student participation is an issue at our school but the new Cohort is looking promising. In our last tourney, only 4 Neumont students entered and I thought that was really lame. I'm gonna be doing a but load of advertising and bringing up awareness for this as I want it to be as big as possible. The only thing holding me back personally is that I myself have a lot of classes this quarter (20 credits/5 classes (4 of which are super important)) and I can't fail a single one but I should be able to put some time aside once a month for a tourney.

On another note:
According to everyone's feedback, parking sucked *** so I'll do some research and try to find a good parking solution for you guys. Is there anything else that I should consider to improve on.... maybe I could provide food if enough people show up.

I'll make sure to keep you guys posted.

Edit:
Also @ Roguay
I'm gonna take your "NeumontJam", change it to Neumont Smash Jam, and make the logo based off of the Space Jam title picture.

Students have the tendency of not wanting to join when they have to 1) pay money and 2) know they'll lose to players who aren't even from their university.

I recommend fostering a competitive smash scene first because if the Neumont players get wrecked at every tourney you host, they won't want to go to the future events.