Utah Thread - Dead thread is dead

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Tiers do exist though, although there maybe untapped potential in a low/mid tier character. Whether that be a certain play style/combo that hasn't been seen/explored or a glitch that hasn't been discovered. (Think Morrigan in Marvel.) The current educated mass opinion of what is high/top tier is because of reasons, and that's usually due to statistics like frame data, hit boxes, overall match ups, tournament win ratios, and in Smash's case, performance on neutral and counter pick stages.

 

[socandrewcer]

Not to change the topic or anything,

But would people be down for a tourney every week in the summer (I'm not saying you need to come to every tourney). I got some venue options and free time on Saturdays during the summer. I'm just thinking right now but If I go through with this, then the tourneys would be on the saturdays that don't have planned tourneys already. Just a basic $5 venue fee and $5 entry fees. Change up every tourney (ex, week 1 melee/brawl, week 2 brawl/pm, week 3 pm/melee).

Basically, I just want to know if people would come

Edit: And ideas are welcome. I miss hosting tourneys since I was in cali

 

[net1234]

Not to change the topic or anything,

But would people be down for a tourney every week in the summer (I'm not saying you need to come to every tourney). I got some venue options and free time on Saturdays during the summer. I'm just thinking right now but If I go through with this, then the tourneys would be on the saturdays that don't have planned tourneys already. Just a basic $5 venue fee and $5 entry fees. Change up every tourney (ex, week 1 melee/brawl, week 2 brawl/pm, week 3 pm/melee).

Basically, I just want to know if people would come

id go

I hate when people say to nerf the spacies. i know it would be more difficult but i feel like everyone should be brought up to be equal to them, they shouldnt have to stoop down.

 

[Superw0rri0]

People are upset with the list cause they think their character is awesome or because the best players in their region use that character and then they see the list say "low-mid tier" they freak out. People also fail to realize that the difference between mid tier and high tier is very little in this game. You watch the S@X tourneys and the person who usually wins is chu with Kirby or chillin with wolf and sometimes pink fresh with Lucas. Over here our second best in melee is luigi.... Does that mean the melee tier list is bs? No.....

id go

I hate when people say to nerf the spacies. i know it would be more difficult but i feel like everyone should be brought up to be equal to them, they shouldnt have to stoop down.

^ This

Not to change the topic or anything,

But would people be down for a tourney every week in the summer (I'm not saying you need to come to every tourney). I got some venue options and free time on Saturdays during the summer. I'm just thinking right now but If I go through with this, then the tourneys would be on the saturdays that don't have planned tourneys already. Just a basic $5 venue fee and $5 entry fees. Change up every tourney (ex, week 1 melee/brawl, week 2 brawl/pm, week 3 pm/melee).

Basically, I just want to know if people would come

Edit: And ideas are welcome. I miss hosting tourneys since I was in cali

I'm down for this

 

[Z'zgashi]

I never said to nerf spacies, I just said I hate how theyre the strongest.

 

[socandrewcer]

They even made wolf a TRUE spacie

 

[Tuesday]

Tires don't exit, guys.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Damn, then how will I ever get to work tonight?

 

[Tsuteto]

Just make sure to enter Zz

 

[Z'zgashi]

Enter what?

 

[socandrewcer]

Zz .......there i did it

 

[Ken Neth]

Weekly tournaments would start to take a toll as people start to get burnt out from too many. From my experience, having tournaments too often works in the beginning, but eventually results in very low turnouts and often not having as much competition in them. Not to mention that $10-15 a week would make it hard financially for people.

I support regular tournaments, just not every week.

As for the pm tier list, if you read the comments below it they talk about how pm is much more balanced than other games and so the tier placement isn't as big of a deal. Also, tiers don't always refer only to how good the character is. Ease of use is also taken into account and expressed in the form of tourney results. Squirtle may be freaking good if you can master all his technical tricks and mind games, but why put that much effort into him when you can get good with fox with a much more straight forward play-style a lot faster. In that sense, tier lists are in no way a means to discourage you from using a certain character. Unless the character is truly garbage, if you put the effort into mastering that character you can go far. Especially in a game like pm where they focus on trying to balance so the low tiers aren'tas far from the top as in other games.

 

[Tsuteto]

Can we just change your name to Kenny the Guru?

 

[BigK_201]

Howdy all - I mentioned this yesterday and I think @ Tsuteto also mentioned it in an earlier post today, but are planning on doing some on site registration (with cash) this Saturday for the FanX tournament from 1 to 4 pm at the Murray Library. Anyone that wants to bring some set ups for friendly matches is welcome

Just curious - does anyone plan to take advantage of this?

 

[Tsuteto]

They're pros at it too, so even if all you do is swing by for registering, it's awesome Their event is pretty chill too if you can't make it to Seph's thing (I'll try to do a registration thing one other day if needed)

 

[Tomacawk]

if you think fox is easy you're not a fox player

 

[Sinz]

Uhm. No.

Tier lists are a very important thing for the game. They can often give you an idea of how tournaments will generally turn out. Statistically they are very important.

MU's are what build tier lists. If a character has more positive match ups he will be higher up in the tier list overall.

Top
Fox
Falco
Marth
Sheik
Mario
Lucas

High
Kirby
Wolf
Diddy
Ivy
Pit
Metaknight

Upper Mid

Mewtwo
Snake
Zelda
Link
Peach
ZSS
falcon

Mid

DDD
Roy
Wario
TLink
Charizard
Ike
Lucario
Sonic

Lower Mid

Luigi
DK
Squirtle
Jigglypuff
ROB
Bowser
Pikachu

Low Tier

Ganon
Samus
G&W
Yoshi
Ice Climbers(i have seen absolutely nobody play them.)
Olimar(he's honestly trash.)

edit: I'm still working on my list. I [pretty much copy pasted and just changed up a few that I thought were way off. >.>

 

[Meleeruler]

snip

This is definitely the tier list closest to how I feel, as far as ones I've seen. Though I'm sure us playing each other all the time has something to do with this.

 

[Tsuteto]

Question on the regular tournaments: What if it was split between Brawl on one week, and then Melee/PM on another week, like, every two weeks or so?

 

[Ken Neth]

Uhm. No.

Tier lists are a very important thing for the game. They can often give you an idea of how tournaments will generally turn out. Statistically they are very important.

MU's are what build tier lists. If a character has more positive match ups he will be higher up in the tier list overall.

The problem with this is that no one or small group of people can know every matchup for every character. Especially this early in the game with 30+ chars. The reason they think that certain characters are better than others is because top players use those characters and show people their true potential and win tournaments with them. If a bunch of good players pick up the same character and do well with him, people will naturally attribute part of that to the character being good.

Saying that tier lists are not at least somewhat based off tourney results is ridiculous. I agree that characters with overall better matchups should be higher on the tier list. But at this point in the game, there is no possible way to establish a tier list based only off that. If you look at the high and top tier of the CT tier list, it is very closely related to who the top players have been winning with and the low tiers are those characters that have no representation in their area. Like TL being bottom of the tier list? After playing ID's TLs that actually have put time into the character I guarantee he's not bottom tier. Tier lists change pretty drastically from the beginning of a game to the end because matchups aren't fully established and certain characters don't always have the best representation.

Matchups have more effect on tier lists once they are more widely established.

Also, who's to say the tier list should predict tournament results or whether tournament results should dictate the tier list?

 

[Sinz]

The problem with this is that no one or small group of people can know every matchup for every character. Especially this early in the game with 30+ chars. The reason they think that certain characters are better than others is because top players use those characters and show people their true potential and win tournaments with them. If a bunch of good players pick up the same character and do well with him, people will naturally attribute part of that to the character being good.

Saying that tier lists are not at least somewhat based off tourney results is ridiculous. I agree that characters with overall better matchups should be higher on the tier list. But at this point in the game, there is no possible way to establish a tier list based only off that. If you look at the high and top tier of the CT tier list, it is very closely related to who the top players have been winning with and the low tiers are those characters that have no representation in their area. Like TL being bottom of the tier list? After playing ID's TLs that actually have put time into the character I guarantee he's not bottom tier. Tier lists change pretty drastically from the beginning of a game to the end because matchups aren't fully established and certain characters don't always have the best representation.

Matchups have more effect on tier lists once they are more widely established.

Also, who's to say the tier list should predict tournament results or whether tournament results should dictate the tier list?

Whoa bro. That last part is hella circular.

Initial Tier Lists are based off of impression and early tournament results.
(This is the state of PM and how it will be until they stop patching it)

Established Tier lists are based off of match ups and consistent tournament results.
(This is where Melee is.)

 

[Tsuteto]

God Tier
Tsuteto

Top Tier
Tsuteto

High Tier
Tsuteto

Middle Tier
Tsuteto

Low Tier
Tsuteto

Bottom Tier
Tsuteto

Problem solved.

 

[Sinz]

Bro I only see bottom tier in your list

 

[Ken Neth]

Whoa bro. That last part is hella circular.

Initial Tier Lists are based off of impression and early tournament results.
(This is the state of PM and how it will be until they stop patching it)

Established Tier lists are based off of match ups and consistent tournament results.
(This is where Melee is.)

Yeah it is circular. That's my freaking English class and philosophy class taking a toll. My teachers have been big on making sure not to claim that one thing causes the other unless there's solid evidence for it haha. I said it because I said tier lists are based off tourney results and you said no tourney results should reflect what the tier list is, which in itself is the circular argument.

I agree with your post though.

 

[Sinz]

Gkirbs needs 2 more people for his car for colorado.

So far Poophandler and Clockwerk(Alchemyst) are in.(right?)

 

[-Mars-]

The spacies are always going to be good no matter what game they're in. Their tools are just superior to most characters and their design allows them to play whatever style they want. Similar to Marth.

They would be God tier in Brawl as well if there was hitstun.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Honestly I think its just that I hate shine in 64/Melee. Imo that move is cancer, but the melee scene has it drilled in their minds that its the greatest thing ever. After wavedashing of course.

**** shine, talk about an overpowered move. Frame 1 move that combos into basically everything, is like completely safe on even whiff (and positive on block), AND reflects projectiles? And on a character(s) that are hard rushdown? Then you give characters with that cancerous move lasers? Not a fan.

 

[-Mars-]

Honestly I think its just that I hate shine in 64/Melee. Imo that move is cancer, but the melee scene has it drilled in their minds that its the greatest thing ever. After wavedashing of course.

**** shine, talk about an overpowered move. Frame 1 move that combos into basically everything, is like completely safe on even whiff (and positive on block), AND reflects projectiles? And on a character(s) that are hard rushdown? Then you give characters with that cancerous move lasers? Not a fan.

O yea definitely, Fox/Falco are just as dominating of the metagame as MK/Ice Climbers are in Brawl. But they're flashy so its k.

 

[Snap.]

Honestly I think its just that I hate shine in 64/Melee. Imo that move is cancer, but the melee scene has it drilled in their minds that its the greatest thing ever. After wavedashing of course.

**** shine, talk about an overpowered move. Frame 1 move that combos into basically everything, is like completely safe on even whiff (and positive on block), AND reflects projectiles? And on a character(s) that are hard rushdown? Then you give characters with that cancerous move lasers? Not a fan.

they can do all of their fancy laser garbage.
i'll just take them to FD and chain grab them with literally every character the first chance i get

 

[Sinz]

@Jekyll I just realized your avatar is black.

 

[-Mars-]

they can do all of their fancy laser garbage.
i'll just take them to FD and chain grab them with literally every character the first chance i get

What if they ban FD?

 

[Tuesday]

This is why all tourneys should be KoC Bo5 format.

 

[Tane]

I've decided I'm going to get godlike with Pit and Squirtle in PM. **** y'all hoes.

@ Sinz are you going to be at the fest tomorrow?

 

[Snap.]

What if they ban FD?

all hope is lost

 

[MVP]

Uhm. No.

Tier lists are a very important thing for the game. They can often give you an idea of how tournaments will generally turn out. Statistically they are very important.

MU's are what build tier lists. If a character has more positive match ups he will be higher up in the tier list overall.

edit: I'm still working on my list. I [pretty much copy pasted and just changed up a few that I thought were way off. >.>

(my opinion on this topic is ONLY directed toward PM, not melee or brawl.)

i would take the time to defend my statement but at this point in the discussion it would take to long and only fall on deaf ears

EDIT: and really needs to be discussed in person where the inferiorities of the fourms and text interfere with such a deep topic.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Look MVP, even when a game is built around balancing the cast like project M is, there will always be a tier list. Because, there will always be at least one character better than the rest of the cast. Even if that's by a razor thin margine (which is not the case anyways). You just have to accept that fact.

 

[MVP]

Look MVP, even when a game is built around balancing the cast like project M is, there will always be a tier list. Because, there will always be at least one character better than the rest of the cast. Even if that's by a razor thin margine (which is not the case anyways). You just have to accept that fact.

the ''razor thin margine'' you're talking about is the human speculation, opinion, playstyle, preference, and metagame. my issue is the way we define ''tier lists'' and the way we ''categorize'' characters and what we base them off of. It's like the fox and falco issue. who's better fox or falco? this is an endless debate that goes nowhere and ultimately comes down to those things i said above. What i'm saying is that we need to change the way we think about this topic.

 

[Tsuteto]

While we're on the debate train, let's talk TVs. I'm going to link an article, then state my opinion.

http://meleeiton.me/2014/03/27/this-tv-lags-a-guide-on-input-and-display-lag/

I really can't explain the facts any better than that. With technology at it's stage concurrently, having this whole thing of "No HDs, CRTs only, Final Destination" is kind of ridiculous. Any amount of "delay" someone could possibly experience is so minimal that the greater part of it is simply their own issue, not a technological stand point. Why is this important to someone like me? Provisions. I can't provide full set ups for tournaments to make it easier for you guys to just come and compete if for some reason there's this - to put it bluntly - idiotic view that playing on anything but a CRT isn't competitive.

The facts are there, and solid, and for 99.2% of you isn't going to affect ANYTHING that you do. So why the continued "hate" over something so trivial nowadays? Is there any valid argument as to why the community must be stuck in the past? Hell, I'm willing to throw in the money to have you guys extensively test this out yourselves to get over the pointless fear of such a ridiculous issue.

 

[Tane]

Are there any fests tonight? I wanna practice both brawl and PM. Text/call me with info. 8012287211

Also: does anyone know how to/have capabilities to stream the fest tomorrow? I think just getting a stream up for it would be fun, and we could get more current matches online.

 

[Tane]

FESSSSTTTTTT


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